Five-year-old South Florida transgender boy will enter school as a girl

[RagingInMiami]

One little girl entering Broward County kindergarten this fall is actually a boy.

Few will know this genetic truth, because the 5-year-old's parents and school administrators have agreed that it's in his best interest to blend in as a female.

Mental health professionals have diagnosed Pat -- not his real name -- with gender dysphoria, a condition in which a person believes that he or she is the opposite gender. After two years of examination, they have determined that he is not simply effeminate or going through a phase.

'Gender dysphoria can take place during a fetus' development in the womb,'' said noted gender specialist and sexologist Marilyn Volker, Ph.D., of Miami.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/15003026.htm

[countmyvote4real]

1. I'm cool as long as "Pat" is cool with it.

Good grief. How is a 5 yo supposed to cope with this shit. At least they aren't slicing and dicing yet.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

41. I'm sure "Pat" will cope with it much better than if she was forced to be

a boy at school. The trans people I know would have loved to be able to do this.

[Kutjara]

2. I'm glad that "Pat's" parents and school administrators are sufficiently..

...enlightened to do this, but I dearly hope some fundy teacher doesn't decide to screw it all up.

[ConsAreLiars]

3. "dysphoria" is a bit misleading, although the policy seems enlightened.

It is not "unhappiness" or "dysphoria" -- it is simply that looking at the genitals causes others (doctors, parents,...) to try to make these kids act as if they were of the opposite gender. The mismatch is between what they are, gender-wise, and what others think they ought to be, based on the appearance of their genitals. The biology of that region usually, but not always, corresponds to gender. This story shows one of many cases, and I am glad the parents and school have undertood this.

[readmoreoften]

14. Wow someone who gets it, yay!

my partner has no dysphoria. the world has dsyphoria when it sees * and it has no language for *. i love my partner to the ends of the earth and i'm happy that * is the way that * is. S/he's kinda like a boy, kinda like a girl and kinda the most wonderful person on the planet as far as i am concerned!

[Cronus Protagonist]

28. Ummmm I think you're thinking of Intersexuals

People with perfectly normal genitalia are the ones (mis)labeled "gender dysphoric" because their internal gender does not match their normal male or female genitalia. People with ambiguous or both genitalia are called "Intersexual" regardless of which gender they self-identify with or ultimately in which they choose to live their lives. As far as I can tell in this article, the child is of the latter, not the former.

FYI.

[idgiehkt]

43. either way, dysphoria is not a good word for it.

your definition seems more like a label given by an outsider whereas the previous poster seems to be talking more about how that person would label themselves. Considering that science until very recently would have labeled this a defomity or deviancy I say we should lean toward the defintion/label that people who have this condition use to describe themselves and are more comfortable with.

[Cronus Protagonist]

114. My TG friend sends me many articles on the subject

So I'm quite well read, and I have her experience to draw upon also. Having grown up with perfectly formed male genitalia, she uses "gender dysmorphia" herself, but agrees that the label isn't the nicest one to use, but it does accurately note the condition is about a disconnect between his physical gender and his mental gender.

A nicer label won't really help much, as she would much prefer to be called simply, a woman, and to live as one.

YMMV



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[ConsAreLiars]

46. You are quite right.

I mentioned the mismatch between genital structure and ID only as a reminder that gender identity is not hard-linked to morphology. I didn't mean to imply that this was an instance of intersexual genital development. Thanks for clarifying.

(edit to clarify?)

[don954]

4. Broward county is a beautiful blue island here in south florida

I love fort lauderdale, miami drives me nuts, but fort lauderdale is great.

[NMMNG]

5. Amazing

To have such enlightened parents without a major hassle.

[saracat]

6. I expect to get flamed but I really can't understand this.

If I thought I was a horse, they would say I was crazy but thinking you are another sex is not and is managable? I really would like to be able to understand this condition. Is it biological? I am not trying to be difficult, I just have never been able to understand this.

[SensibleAmerican]

7. I 'm with you on this sara.

I'm as clueless as you are about the medical details on this.

[alittlelark]

80. Inform yourself... take an hour or so and UNDERSTAND

Sexuality exists on a continuum.


I an a hetero F w/ 2 kids, but I 'GET IT".

[readmoreoften]

8. I'm sorry, I'm too tired of explaining this over and over again.

Biological sex is just not as determined as you think. The biologist Ann Fausto-Sterling explains it best in her book Sexing the Body, which largely deals with intersex conditions not trans issues, but it's a great jumping off point. Then move onto "The Spirit and the Flesh" or "The Hijdras of India". "Third Sex, Third Gender", "Making Sex" by Lacqueur. "Transgender Warriors" is a good book and also by a transman.

If you'd like to see who this young lady might grow up to be, look here:


http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/Sara...



http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/Leon...


http://www.erinswen.com/personal.htm



http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/Anna...


You can't take a few shots of hormones and become a horse.

[readmoreoften]

9. Sorry, better links

http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/TransMen.html
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/TSgallery1.html

[saracat]

10. It isn't about hormone shots. It is about believing you are other

than that which you are! And transgender people come to that conclusion without any shots. They take shots and have surgery later. I think this child is waay too young but again, I don't understand this. I just used horse because most of us were not born horses. Sorry but the links except for the last don't work.

[readmoreoften]

11. Better links. And you have a lot to read there.

It sounds like you just want to voice your dislike of TG people, who don't know who "they really are". Maybe they are smarter about who they are than you are. I just gave you two very informative links.

My partner is TG, so you don't need to educate me on what order they do what.

Your "understanding" or "lack of understanding" on a gut level is irrelevant. Until you educate yourself, all you're going to do is voice your discomfort and scorn for transgendered people.

[saracat]

33. I have no "scorn" or "dislike" of transgendered people!

I simply don't understand the condition enough to make any kind of a judgement. And if I did understand it, it still woundn't have any bearing on what I thought about them as a person. And I wasn't trying to "educate" you on anything. I could include the fact that I myself take hormones and they do not determine who I am as a person , but whatever. Thank you for the links I will read them.

[readmoreoften]

50. Hormones can do a lot. But it depends on which ones.

The men you see in the pictures do not have false body hair or surgery (other than chest reconstruction.) It is all from taking a right amount of testosterone. If you take too much, it converts back into estrogen. Also, all women naturally have testosterone, so it needs to be a certain balance. On testosterone (T), a transman's shoulder's will broaden, his hips will get narrow, his bones will stretch and the consistency of his skin will change. Moods and temperments also change. So does sex drive.

[UncleSepp]

59. You've already made a judgment whether you see it or not

When you say "who they really are", you've made a judgment that a TG girl is "really" a boy, and that the outward appearance of the body determines true gender. You say that you don't understand it, yet you use language that rather confidently states your understanding of the issues. I'm sure you didn't intend to make the judgment, and probably don't know what other language to use. But in case you were wondering what about your innocent statements has come across as judgmental, that's what it is.

[saracat]

77. This must be Mercury in retrograde. I clearly stated I didn't understand!

And I am really sickened by the attacks for merely questioning about this issue. I will read the links and a little more, but I am a bit torked by the put downs and condecending responses I have gotten in response to my questions.I don't think I am the one who is judgemental!

[ConsAreLiars]

78. This is a deeply felt matter for many. So don't be put off by

a certain edginess in the replies. Think of it this way. You know you are female (?? guessing from your screen name) and your parents who diapered you also thought so, and so on throughout your life. No problem at all. But, if you can, imagine that when you began to become a conscious human, once you began using language, people began telling you you were a male. Maybe they pointed at some part of your anatomy, maybe the small toe on your left foot, and insisted that that proved you were male. Would it make any difference to you in terms of who you felt yoursef to be? This is what happens with kids whose gender identity, as they experience it, is denied/suppressed/rejected by those around them.

[saracat]

79. This was a great explanation! Thank you for

taking the time to reply and explain. I must confess, I was a bit tempted to say that my name was not indicative of my gender anymore than my physicality was but you are right I am female!:) Thanks again for a great post!

[ConsAreLiars]

81. Glad I was able to help.

You got it right exactly when you pointed out that your screen name or physicality should not be taken as indicative of your gender. The fact that you know yourself to be female, regardless of those particular attributes, or how others see you, is part of what makes you who you are, and the same is true for those like the kid mentioned in the original article.

[Dunedain]

83. I'm Stuck

My genitals don't really define my gender, it is all in what I think I am?
How do I know I'm something, before that point when people start telling me my penis is a toe?
I'm not denying that what this OP is about isn't a reality, it's just really far from anything I know of and your answer made you sound plausible.
Thank you

[readmoreoften]

84. Good comment. I think of it as "the map doesn't match the road."

How early do we start telling kids what the penis or the toe means? Studies have shown that newborns in blue blankets (regardless of biological sex) will be handled more roughly and commended for their toughness (he's a real football player, isn't he!) so gender is enforced at a very early age.

I had one friend (had because she died in a car accident at 20) who was born male. She had two brothers and a mother and a father. She always thought that she would grow breasts like her mother when she hit puberty. When I asked her about her penis, she said that she always assumed that girls had penises. Because she had a penis, right? So other women must as well. She liked men, so she never touched a woman. So she simply never knew. Certainly her proper mom and dad never talked about vaginas, her older brother is gay, and her twin brother is a hopeless comic book geek who never talked about sex at all.

In my experience, which is limited only to the people I know (but I do know many transsexuals) TG people have different senses of their bodies. It is often not completely a genital issue, but a sense that you are supposed to have a different body. Your brain says "this is not my body". A little like having a phantom limb. Map doesn't correspond to the road.

A very good friend of mine transitioned in the 1970s. She said that she didn't hate her penis at all. In fact, she had a lot of fun with it! And she was quite well-endowed to boot! But it just didn't feel like it was supposed to be there. Somewhere deeply, it felt like the map didn't match the road. It was a good object, but not hers. My friend is also a lesbian.

I have another friend, who is FtM (female to male). This friend is extremely upset about his body. He calls his hips "that fat on my sides". He packs a penis daily and will not leave the house without it. He has been stuffing since puberty and now he is in his early twenties.

My partner is a transgendered butch lesbian. S/he grew up feeling like a boy and still feels more like a boy than a girl. Luckily there is a deep rooted history in lesbian culture of "butches and femmes", so s/he does not want to transition completely because s/he feels that space is sacred. However, s/he always felt like a boy. She likes having big muscles. She doesn't want hips or a tapered waist. She flattens her breasts everyday. They are like "ugly fat" to her. She calls them "man boobs." She does want to have surgery to get rid of them because like my other friend, "they just don't feel like they are supposed to be there." The map doesn't match the road.

Funny thing about people though, is that it is harder to change the map than it is the road. We know very little about the brain in comparison to what we know about hormones and surgery. People have been having sex reassignment surgeries for millenia. Some cultures would not explain this as a "disorder" but as a gift or a path or a way of being.

Throughout history people who we would call "trans" today would have been called "healers" and shaman in the past. Trans people existed to help straight people learn more about themselves and the world. They were considered closer to the gods.

[Dunedain]

110. Thank you n/t

[LostinVA]

24. How are they way too young to know what they are?

When you were five, you knew if you were a boy or girl, right? So does this child.

How wonderful "Pat's" parents love and understand their child so much that they are sparing her a lifetime of confusion and possible self-loathing.

[Clark2008]

37. At five, I didn't care.

I think that's the point. It's the parents who assign "roles" anyway.

I played with cars and horses and abhorred Barbies - but I still grew up to be a heterosexual female, for example. And never felt - at 5 years old - that it was wrong or weird or different because my parents didn't make a big deal out of it.

The point the other person is making is valid: at 5 years old, you don't really KNOW what role you should be "playing" unless your parents assign you one.

[LostinVA]

38. You DID know -- you knew if you were a boy or a girl

It has nothing to do about caring what you were. It's not about playing a role or what toys you play with -- it has to do with who you ARE.

*sigh* People on this thread don't understand this. As I said, read Jenny Boylan's book -- little kids KNOW who they are. They KNOW what feels right... it has nothing to do with parents and assigning roles. This child indentifies as a girl... they know what they feel.

on edit: you didn't care because you were allowed to be who you were.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

42. At five, I hated "girl" stuff and liked "boy" stuff but...

I still considered myself a girl and I was okay with that. I was just a girl who liked boy stuff.

[marvio]

119. sexuality has nothing to do with gender

gender role and gender identity as sexual orientation are all different. gender identity is know at18-24 months of age, gender roles are placed in front of you by society. sexual orientation comes on much later in life. Bottom line gender identity is innate, not taught or rubbed off.

[HeeBGBz]

93. When I was that age, I wanted to be a boy

I hated dolls and girly things. That lasted up until puberty and then I just became an awkward girl and lost confidence in everything I did and was.

Good for this school to allow the child to be natural.

[Cronus Protagonist]

29. Well, I'm hung like a horse, does that count?

:evilgrin:




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[lumberjack_jeff]

73. I have concerns about parents assigning a non-biological gender at age 5

I don't think that this is a decision that parents should make for such a young child, and I don't think it's a decision that a 5 year old can make for themselves.

None of us know the child - maybe it's the right decision, but I think that generally a person should default to their biological gender until and unless they can understand the ramifications of changing that.

[readmoreoften]

75. So then, who gets to make the decision about how a 5 year old dresses?

The law? If not the child, the parents, and the GID doctors, then who? And why? What do you do to punish the child when s/he wears dresses? Do you yell? What about the second time? Do you punish? What about when s/he calls herself a girl? Do you yell at her that she is a boy? In private or in front of her friends? In front of teachers?

What is the worst that can happen?

[lumberjack_jeff]

105. Worst that can happen? I dunno...

How does the school administration explain to concerned parents why their kindergarten daughter's playmate pees standing up?

I'd generally buy a male child boys clothing and give 'em a boys name. If, when they're old enough to make their own decisions, they decide differently - I'd support them.

[LostinVA]

23. People have the genitals of one gender but actually ARE the other

You're a male with a female's genitals, or vice versa. It is something that happens in fetus development. It is very, very real... and untold people have suffered through the years because of society telling them they HAVE to be male because they have a penis. These people aren't gay (although they can be).

A good book to understand this, well-written and engaging:

She's not there, Jennifer Boylan
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/076791404X/qid=1152534576/sr=2-2/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_2/102-7055216-1427301?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

[idgiehkt]

44. do you want to understand the condition?

how about listening to and reading about the people who have it.
Take them at their word, and you won't have a problem anymore.

Hastily label them crazy, and you will.

[marvio]

118. the weight of scientific evidence reveals biologic basis

Gender identity is established at 18-24 months of age, its coded at 8 weeks time in our mothers womb. here is a link that explains the whole concept. Its totally biological.

http://www.gires.org.uk/Web_Page_Assets/Gender_Dysphoria.htm

[Maine-ah]

12. serious question here...

is it really possible to diagnose a five year old with this? I would think they would like to give this a little more time.

[readmoreoften]

13. Yes, see the movie Ma Vie En Rose for a lovely illustration.

my partner ordered all her hair chopped off at age 3 because she said she was a boy. she has been wearing men's clothes since childhood. the only reason why she goes by "she" is because of her ties to the lesbian community. among friends we say "he" or "she" interchangably. the most painful part for her is having breasts, which she has binded down since puberty.

if this little girl wants to live as a little girl now there is no harm in letting her live the way she wants. if she changes her mind (and i've never heard of it happening) the world will not collapse. let her be who she is.

[Obamarama]

63. Ma Vie en Rose is an EXCELLENT film......

I don't know anyone in the transgender community, but this movie really touched my heart and made me more empathetic and understanding of the whole issue. I love the ending, where Ludovic meets his "match."

[readmoreoften]

65. His match is SO my girlfriend!

I was teaching a course on tg issues with a professor who is trans and when I said that I'm a femme lesbian, she said, "Oh, no your not. You're a female-to-male transsexual trapped in a drag queen's body!"

Ah, she knows me well.

[malaise]

30. That's my question too n/t

[liberal N proud]

15. How can they determine he thinks he is a female at age 5?

Basing a 5 year olds sexuality from the clothes they like and the toys they play with is just wrong. 5 years old is too early for this sort of thing.

[readmoreoften]

16. They can determine she thinks she's female from what she says.

She's five, not an infant. And they're not giving her a sex change, they're letting her life the life she wants to live. If your five year old says I'm a girl and you say no you're not and you fight about it every day, and then you force her to wear boys clothes and she refuses, and then you take her to a shrink and they say "your kid has GID" what do you do? Force her to wear boys clothes? Humiliate her as she starts school and INSIST that she is a boy in hopes that it's just a phase?

Studies shows that it isn't a phase. Maybe the family and the medical profession know better than a lay person with an abstract opinion on a discussion board.

Honestly, I wish threads like this would just get locked.

[liberal N proud]

17. It was just an abstract question from an uninformed opinion

I don't even consider myself a lay person on such subjects. But then I will never learn if I don't ask questions.
If I don't ask questions my mind becomes dull and shrivels up like a republicans mind.

[readmoreoften]

18. Sorry for the attack!

I just get used to people posting opinions about trans people saying they don't "understand" with no real interest in understanding. I posted two pretty good links in this thread with lots of info and cited some books, too.

The answer is yes. It is generally better to let a child live its life than force it to be something it feels it isn't. Honestly what's the harm? Most other kids actually accept it very easily because they haven't been taught to hate or fear yet.

My partner is TG so I get very sensitive. I spend have my life defending transpeople, it feels sometimes! I worry about our ability to survive sometimes. There are many many many transpeople in the world, from females who lived as male warrior-soldiers to born males who live as eunuchs and transwomen. It has been common throughout history and it is still common. In a good portion of Native American cultures, transpeople were considered essential blessings to a community. I know in a few tribes, children were asked at puberty "are you male, female, or two-spirited" before then there was no gender, you were just "child"

:hi:

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

21. In some native cultures,

the transgenders are considered shamen, and are respected.

I've read that there are parts of the brain that are different for men and women, and in transgendered folks who appear to be one sex the brain parts show the other--think I've got this right.

[sandnsea]

22. "just child"

It sounds to me like that's the goal with the child at this point. Completely gender neutral so the child can grow naturally and uninhibited. Sounds like a solid approach. The only thing I would worry about is socialization outside of school, birthday parties, sleep-overs, etc. Otherwise, it should work out okay for a few more years.

[Thirtieschild]

31. I have gender questions about my daughter, now 46

Years ago I saw a program on 20/20 that talked about women who are female, identify as female, yet have masculine/male qualities and attitudes. I saw my daughter; when the program was over she called and said she'd seen a program about gender and saw herself. I wish I could remember what the phenomena was called - would like to know more about it, and hope you you, Readmoreoften, can help me understand.

I would call Daughter's attitudes not so much masculine as macho - she is exceptionally aggressive and competitive, denies her feelings, will not look inside, I would say is terrified of what she might find. When she was a freshman in college, one young man broke up with her because all she wanted from him was sex. A year or so later, she fell madly in love and was devastated when she found him with another man. After they graduated he was in a coma after an auto accident; his family called in the middle of the night, begging her to fly to New Jersey - she was the one he was calling for. She refused.

As a child her favorite toys were match book cars, would spend hours playing with them. However, she loved dresses and pretty clothes. An incident when she was four pretty much sums her up - getting the idea from a cartoon, she dropped a kleenex, expecting a neighborhood boy to pick it up; when he didn't she attacked him.

She married when she was 40, to a man who got to know her primarily through snail mail letters - they lived on different continents - was already in love with her mind before he met her and experienced her aggressive side. He is frustrated because she won't share her feelings. She's the wage earner, he's the house husband, is the caretaker for their sons, ages three and five, has done a beautiful job with them.

I would really appreciate any information, direction. Thanks so much.

[readmoreoften]

54. They are called "normal" in my book.

I'm the same way. I'm hyperfeminine. Very aggressive. Very sexual. This issue isn't that there is something wrong with women like us because we fail to follow some proscribed Oprahesque notion of femininity (there are many ways to be feminine), it's just usually a problem when you're straight because men aren't raised to deal with women like us. Submissive men tend to love it.

I'm lucky, I'm gay. I have a very butch partner (a transgendered butch), who opens the door, fixes my car, puts away the groceries, assembles the furniture, does all the lifting and DEFINITELY picks up my kerchief when I drop it. And we are happy happy happy happy.

Your daughter is just a very normal dominant woman. Unfortunately the world doesn't know how the hell to handle that. The sharing feelings part may come more from not knowing herself well than masculinity. I've known a lot of feminine women who have a hard time sharing feelings and it can come from a number of things.

[kapkao]

88. Normal?! There aren't nearly enough girls like you! So rare...

Bi/strait gals like you, that is.

Why would men have to deal with women like you.. you said you were gay. Yes, surrendered guys like me become swoon with excitement because of 'huntresses' like you... but how would you know that so well?

[Quantess]

117. That's so cool!

I'm happy for you after reading your story!

[jeanarrett]

120. How about my 11 year old?

She has wanted to "be" a boy since age two, is now 11 years old, wears her hair short and will only wear boy clothes. She will not even wear "girl" colors--whatever that means, it's not just pink. We shop for school in the boys' section of clothing stores. She wears a boy's bathing suit with a t-shirt. Her best friend is a boy (since age 5), but she has girl friends too, and I believe she has had a crush on another girl. She has a lot of boy friends also. I have always just let her be whatever she wanted to be, whatever that may be. She has never played with girl toys, but doesn't really play with "boy" toys either, other than athletic stuff, dirt bikes and video games (her passion). Her older siblings tell her she is "gay." I tell them to leave her alone and stop trying to label her, she is who she is and it's fine by me, I think she's one terrific human being.

Now, my daughter has dressed like a boy ever since she started school and no one (and I mean no one, except her siblings) has ever mentioned it or made fun of her or even noticed to my knowledge. She is popular and well-liked by teachers and students alike. So why would or should the little boy (dressing like a girl because he is a girl) be treated any differently?

My problem with my 11-year old is her older siblings (2 girls and a boy) telling her that she'll have to knock it off soon and be a girl because she's going to grow breasts, etc., and I don't want her to suffer with this kind of anxiety and I don't know how to talk to her about it or help her. I don't think she is just a "tomboy."

[Branjor]

19. "Boys clothes"

What a crock - clothes are clothes.

[readmoreoften]

51. Oh yeah? Clothes are clothes? Ever go in a department store?

When your daughter refuses to even buy clothes in the girls section from as soon as she can speak, will ONLY shop in the boys section and later the men's section, demands having a crew cut, and says she's a boy-- her whole life, let's see how you feel.

Should their be "boys" clothes and "girls" clothes? That's another issue. But it is undeniable that trans children have major, major issues with wearing the clothes of their proscribed gender... not because they "innately" want those clothes, but because people treat them a certain way when they where them, i.e. more like a boy or a girl. Cutesy little tomboy clothes aren't what I'm talking about.

[Branjor]

68. *

**When your daughter refuses to even buy clothes in the girls section from as soon as she can speak, will ONLY shop in the boys section and later the men's section, demands having a crew cut, and says she's a boy-- her whole life, let's see how you feel.**

The only part of that repertoire that bothers me is "says she's a boy".

[pecwae]

20. I think we need threads like this

and with links as you provided. Someone may just learn something.

My BIL played with dolls, wanted and got an Easy Bake oven for his 5th birth day; all these non-traditional male traits showed early. It wasn't just a phase. In HS he tried to date girls, but he says he knew, in some abstract way even at the age of 5, that he was not drawn to them.

OTOH, my ex MIL dressed my ex-husband in girls' clothing when he was a young child until he reached the age where he resisted. She had 3 boys and wanted a girl with her last, my ex. She actually boasted about doing this; saw nothing wrong. He revealed that he was a crossdresser after we were married.

[LostinVA]

27. Great post n/t

[theboss]

104. The life she wants to live?

This where I am lost. At age five, the life I wanted to live included not taking a bath and living under the porch.

There is simply no way a child at age five can make these types of decisions.

[radwriter0555]

25. We know a male child, now a teen, who, from the time he was an infant

expressed himself emotionally as a female. He loved girl clothes, girl toys, didn't care for male defined toys, was raised with an older brother, surrounded by such things, in a very, very normal household. He loved baby dolls, barbie dolls, and the many trappings of little girls, in spite of not being raised around any.

From the time he was little itty bitty he expressed that he felt like "he was a girl inside". As an infant he didn't care for male defined toys, he liked girl things, and let me tell you, little girls DO prefer one type of toy and little boys prefer quite another! There is NOTHING you can do to change what infants are innately attracted to!

His parents, being open minded, educated and compassionate, have made sure he's had therapy to deal with these feelings -- for everyone. So far, he's actually a real normal kid, and while he feels feminine inside to this day, he is male defined in his exterior and doesn't feel the need to present himself as a female.

BUT he knows his family will always love him no matter how he feels he must express himself.

That is what makes him a really normal kid. He knows he's loved for being precisely who he is.

[LostinVA]

26. It has nothing to do with sexuality!

It's total gender identification. I am not TG, nor knowingly know anyone who is... but I've always found this fascinating. I knew I was female when I was five. Did YOU know your gender? Of course you did. All children do. "Pat" knows she's a girl, no matter what parts she has. It is NOT too early at all!

Read Jennifer Boylan's "She's Not Here." That'll explain. And, will show how She knew she was NOT a he when she was little... no matter that she had a penis then.

This is not the same a sexual orientation. But, on that, at five I knew I liked little girls better than boys. That's also hard wired, and kids are aware of that, too, even if they don't know what "that" is.

How come liberals who totally accept sexual orientation can't get this???

[Branjor]

32. Sure, I "knew" I was a girl...

My mother told me. Didn't mean that I didn't wear pants, run, play sports, play dolls, etc. etc.

[LostinVA]

35. You don't get it n/t

[Quantess]

61. I don't get it either.

I admit it.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

45. No you knew you were a girl because you are a girl.

If you were a boy, but had a girl's body you would have known your mother was wrong.

[Branjor]

47. B*llsh*t...

You have to have preconceived notions of there being two "distinct" sexes and of "what a boy is" versus "what a girl is" in order to "know" that you are in the "wrong" body. I had absolutely no overriding "gender knowledge" that "I. AM. A. GIRL. and that's that".

[NuttyFluffers]

56. all of human social life is assigned gender, it's hard to separate

you are trying to find a biology vs. social division in this, and that just won't happen. there's a reason why that whole nature vs. nurture argument has been tossed out, we are too far ingrained and intermixed that we cannot completely say "this is purely (this)." basically, these "preconceived notions" have been given to you even before you were aware of it. in fact, there's probably many preconceived notions still floating around in you that you haven't been forced to come face-to-face with.

just because you could not cognate with the appropriate adult definitions conceptions of gender and sex doesn't mean you weren't already being manipulated by their influence by society (or nature, btw). infancy and childhood doesn't exist in a bubble, and your awareness of them is inconsequential for them to leave an effect on you. that's where you are making the mistake. in fact, the best way to manipulate someone is by their unconscious "consent" -- make it seem normal, natural, and as they grow older, their own formulated idea. since you apparently had no "conflicts" with the biases being instilled you were often blissfully unaware, and all the more easily controlled by the conditioning. at most, any minor gender bending exhibited might have been noted, commented on, received and critiqued by you, and then possibly ignored. but even though you did not think of it as an adult, naturally, it will have left a mark on you -- you just cannot see it yet because you weren't breaking enough of the world's rules.

but think of this: all of modern western society, which was strictly defined in gender and only recently becoming so open about variance, has condoned, if not mandated cruelty and abuse to those who openly transcend sexual and gender norms. biology itself, with its day-to-day reinforcement of sexual difference (try to take a piss and then forget that there's a sexual difference in our species, i dare you ;) ), goes about its course with its determined structure. both nature and nurture exhibit strong reinforcement of definition that sex=gender (edit: as dimly understood in our species) -- and you have young children, many thinking they are completely alone in the world because no one is there to offer them hope and acceptance of their difference, still, against the entire world, insist: "no. you are wrong. you are all wrong. the me inside, my spirit, my ego, my identity, whatever, ME, i know who I AM, and all of you, every one of you, is wrong. your entire culture, everyone who claims to love this shell of me, even nature down to my very own body, you are all wrong -- the real me is inside!"

it is a profound display of self-identity over all, just about a miracle of the human spirit. to seemingly defy both nature and nurture, and insist, against all the forces that comprise your world and upbringing, that you are real, normal, and not a mistake. that everything else is in err in judging you without your input. it is a level of personal awareness most people never achieve in their lifetimes -- because they aren't cornered into it.

so many have been given twice the gift of acceptance through conformity, yet barely realize it. one set is the conformity to society, the other is the conformity to biology, and it is the biological gift we so easily gloss over. so what if a few of you understand what it's like to gender bend a bit as a child, albeit unconsciously. when you can speak that truth in flesh that you cannot recognize as yours, then speak to the transsexual. then you will finally know that you are not your body, a mere pawn of flesh to the propagation of nature, just as you may know that you are not a mere pawn of society, a functionary enslaved to society's norms.

and that, perhaps, is the scariest and most confusing thing to people about transsexuals -- the truth that you are not your body. that you are you, somewhere unknown where decision making and identity is made, and nothing, no power on this earth, is going to steal your sense of self for obedience and comfort. that's profound, and frightening; it speaks to a power of defiance and resilience that's humbling.

[Branjor]

60. The preconceived notions

are exactly what I'm arguing AGAINST. Of course infancy and childhood don't exist in a bubble. That is exactly where a child gets a conception of "what a boy is" and "what a girl is" - from parents/ family/society. When a child feels more like what society says the other sex is like and therefore decides that s/he IS the other sex, that is because s/he has accepted the societal "norms" LOCK STOCK AND BARREL, not because s/he has rejected them.

**no "conflicts" with the biases being instilled**

This shows how much you know about me - NOTHING. I have rejected and fought against what I have been told girls are like since I was old enough to stand. I am a lesbian and a lifelong radical feminist and I reject society's female stereotypes utterly.

[readmoreoften]

64. It does trouble the pure constructionist view of gender.

But saying that a 5yo is merely internalizing societal norms and not "authentically" feeling like a boy or a girl assumes has a few problems.

1) All 5yos internalize societal norms. That's what being a 5yo is all about.
2) You are assuming gender is false and imposed. So is femininity being imposed on this child?
3) How about the many many transgendered people who do not identify as male or female, but as something inbetween?
4) So are all these people just stupid? Duped? Has this 5yo been duped by the system in some way that the other little girls in frilly pink dresses haven't been duped?
5) How do you account for the massive presence of trans and third gender people in cultures since the beginning of history? Assurbanipal, the last king of Babylon who dressed like a woman and sewed in the sewing chamber? How do you account for the millions and millions of eunuchs that lived and died in Greece, Byzantium, and China? What about the hidjra's in India? They castrate themselves and dress as women but consider themselves 3rd gender? How do you account for Native American two-spirits?

White Christians killed twospirit people as "heathen" and "perverts" when we took this land. The only difference between now and then and western culture and native cultures, is that most of them had a social standing for their twospirits, and we despise them.

For example:

Aleut
Male-bodied: Ayagigux' ("man transformed into a woman")
Female-bodied: Tayagigux' ("woman transformed into a man")

Apache
Mescalero
Male-bodied: Nde'isdzan ("man-woman")

Arapaho
Male-bodied: Haxu'xan (singular), Hoxuxuno (plural) ("rotten bone")

Arikara
Male-bodied: Kuxa't

Assiniboine
Male-bodied: Winktan

Atsugewi
Male-bodied: Yaawa
Female-bodied: Brumaiwi

Bella Coola
Male-bodied: Sx'ints ("hermaphrodite")

Blackfoot
Siksika
Male-bodied: A'kiihka'si ("acting like a woman"), Aawoowa'kii ("misaligned woman")

Peigan
Southern
Male-bodied: (dialectal variants of the aforementioned, more conservative, Siksika terms with loss of ' and compensatory lengthening, as well as assibilation of 'h' follwing 'i')
Female-bodied: Saahkómaapi'aakííkoan ("boy-girl") < *strictly a nickname given to Running Eagle* >

Cheyenne
Male-bodied: He'eman (singular), He'emane'o (plural) (hee = "woman")
Female-bodied: Hetaneman (singular), Hatane'mane'o (plural) (hetan = "man")

Chickasaw, Choctaw
Male-bodied: Hoobuk

Chumash
Male-bodied: Agi

Cocopa
Male-bodied: Elha ("coward")
Female-bodied: Warrhameh

Coeur d'Alene
Female-bodied: St'amia ("hermaphrodite")

Cree
Plains
Male-bodied: Aayahkweew or Eeyihkweew ("neither man or woman")

Crow
Male-bodied: Bote/Bate/Bade ("not man, not woman")

Dakota (Santee Sioux)
Male-bodied: Winkta

Deg Hit'an (Ingalik)
Male-bodied: Nok'olhanxodeleane ("woman pretenders")
Female-bodied: Chelxodeleane ("man pretenders")

Gros Ventre
Male-bodied: Athuth

Hidatsa
Male-bodied: Miati ("to be impelled against one's will to act the woman," "woman compelled")

Hopi
Male-bodied: Ho'va

Illinois
Male-bodied: Ikoueta
Female-bodied: Ickoue ne kioussa ("hunting women")

Interior Salish (Flathead)
Male-bodied: Ma'kali

Inuit
Male-bodied: Sipiniq ("infant whose sex changes at birth")

Juaneno
Male-bodied: Kwit

Karankawa
Male-bodied: Monaguia

Keresan
Acoma
Male-bodied: Kokwi'ma

Laguna
Male-bodied: Kok'we'ma

Klamath
Male-/Female-bodied: Tw!inna'ek

Kutenai
Male-bodied: Kupatke'tek ("to imitate a woman")
Female-bodied: Titqattek ("pretending to be a man")

Kumeyaay
Tipai, Kamia
Female-bodied: Warharmi

Lakota (Teton Sioux)
Male-bodied: Winkte ("<'wants' or 'wishes'> to be woman." A contraction of winyanktehca)
Female-bodied: Bloka egla wa ke ("thinks she can act like a man") < editor's note: cited by Beatrice Medicine, its age unknown >

Luiseno
San Juan Capistrano
Male-bodied: Cuit

Mountain
Male-bodied: Uluqui

Mandan
Male-bodied: Mihdacka (mih-ha = "woman")

Maricopa
Male-bodied: Ilyaxai' ("girlish")
Female-bodied: Kwiraxame

Miami
Male-bodied: Waupeengwoatar ("the white face," possibly the name of a particular person who was two-spirit)

Micmac
Male-bodied: Geenumu gesallagee ("he loves men," perhaps correctly spelt ji'nmue'sm gesalatl)

Miwok
Male-bodied: Osabu (osa = "woman")

Mohave
Maled-bodied: Alyha ("coward")
Female-bodied: Hwame

Mono
Western
Male-bodied: Tai'up

Navajo
Male-/female-/intersexed-bodied: nádleeh or nádleehé (nominalization of the iterative of a verbal root meaning "to turn," i.e. "permanently changing," read: "emergent")

Nisenan (Southern Maidu)
Male-bodied: Osa'pu

Ojibwa (Chippewa)
Male-bodied: Agokwa ("man-woman")
Female-bodied: Okitcitakwe ("warrior woman")

Omaha, Osage, Ponca
Male-bodied: Mixu'ga ("instructed by the moon," "moon instructed")

Otoe, Kansa (Kaw)
Male-bodied: Mixo'ge ("instructed by the moon," "moon instructed")

Paiute
Northern
Male-bodied: Tudayapi ("dress like other sex")
Southern
Male-bodied: Tuwasawuts

Patwin
Male-bodied: Panaro bobum pi ("he has two ")

Pawnee
Male-bodied: Ku'saat

Pomo
Northern
Male-bodied: Das (Da = "woman")

Southern
Male-bodied: T!un

Potawatomi
Male-bodied: M'netokwe ("supernatural, extraordinary," Manito plus female suffix)

Quinault
Male-bodied: Keknatsa'nxwixw ("part woman")
Female-bodied: Tawkxwa'nsixw ("man-acting")

Salinan
Male-bodied: Coya

Sanpoil
Male-bodied: St'a'mia ("hermaphrodite")

Sauk (Sac), Fox
Male-bodied: I-coo-coo-a ("man-woman")

Shasta
Male-bodied: Gituk'uwahi

Shoshone
Bannock
Male-bodied: Tuva'sa ("sterile")

Lemhi
Male/Female-bodied: Tubasa
Female-bodied: Waipu sungwe ("woman-half")

Gosiute
Male-bodied: Tuvasa

Promontory Point
Male-bodied: Tubasa waip ("sterile woman")
Female-bodied: Waipu sungwe ("woman-half")

Nevada
Male-bodied: Tainna wa'ippe ("man-woman")
Female-bodied: Nuwuducka ("female hunter")

Takelma
Male-bodied: Xa'wisa

Tewa
Male-/Female-bodied: Kwido
Tiwa

Isleta
Male-bodied: Lhunide

Tlingit
Male-bodied: Gatxan ("coward")

Tohono O'odham (Papago), Akimel O'odham (Pima)
Male-bodied: Wik'ovat ("like a girl")

Tubatulabal
Male-bodied: Huiy

Ute
Southern
Male-bodied: Tuwasawits

Winnebago (Ho-Chunk)
Male-bodied: Shiange ("unmanly man")

Wishram
Male-bodied: Ik!e'laskait

Female-bodied: Kwe'rhame
Yana

Male-bodied: Lo'ya
Yup'ik

Chugach/Pacific (Alutiiq, Southern Alaskan)
Male-bodied: Aranu'tiq ("man-woman")

St. Lawrence Island (Siberian Yup'ik, Western Alaskan)
Male-bodied: Anasik
Female-bodied: Uktasik

Kuskokwim River (Central Alaskan)
Male-bodied: Aranaruaq ("woman-like")
Female-bodied: Angutnguaq ("man-like")

Zapotec
Male-bodied: Muxe

Zuni
Male-bodied: Lha'mana ("behave like a woman")
Female-bodied: Katotse ("boy-girl")


Two-Spirit like identities outside of North America
Asia
East Asia

Korea
mudang

Siberia
Chukchis
Male-bodied: Yirka'-la'ul ("soft man")
Female-bodied: Qa'cikicheca ("similar to a man")

Southeast Asia
Thailand
kathoey

Philippines
bantut

South Asia
India
hijra

Central Asia
Turkic
Male-bodied: Bacchá

Middle East

Arabic
Male-bodied: Mukhannathun
Intersex-bodied: Khuntha

Ottoman
Male-bodied: Köçek

Malaysia
Singapore
mak nyah

Indonesia

Borneo
basir (among the Ngaju of Kalimantan)
manang bali (among the Iban)

Sulawesi
basaja (among the Toradjas)
bissu (among the Makasserese)

Polynesia

Hawaii
mahu

Tahiti
mahu

Samoa
fa'afafine

Tonga
fakafefine/fakaleiti

Tuvalu
pinapinaaine

Africa

Lugbara
Male-bodied: okule
Female-bodied: agule

Zulu
isangoma

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

97. Not all trans people fall into gender binaries.

I know a couple femme ftms. How do you explain them?

[Branjor]

115. This triggers my bs detector....

People illustrate the trans phenomenon giving endless examples of "femininity" in mtfs and "masculinity" in ftms, and then when you point it out and call them on it, all of a sudden they start talking about "femme" ftms, "butch" mtfs, etc. This sudden shift in descriptions of what trans folks are like always sets off my bullshit detector as to what exactly they are pulling there. And then they spout out some demand that I "explain" the new info they just spit out. Why don't you explain why I didn't have any overriding "gender knowledge" as a young child the way you claim "everybody" does? Oh, yes, I forgot, because I DID have that knowledge, only I was too dumb to know it, but YOU know what knowledge I did or did not have even if I don't. :eyes:

Who knows about your femme ftm friends? There are a lot of possible reasons. Personally, I think transgender is just so so IN lately and a lot of people just want to get on the bandwagon and prove they're "cool".

[LostinVA]

48. Thanks, Haruka

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

52. No problem, but apparently my answer is bullshit.

:eyes:

I know you know it's not though.

[LostinVA]

89. What the hell do YOU know, anyway.... you're a lesbian

Wait, I am, too.

Are you cute?

I'M TEASING.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

94. I am cute.

Of course you're far away and have a partner.

[LostinVA]

95. I am only five hours away, but you have a partner

And, I'm starting to get crotchety in my early 40's....

[HereSince1628]

57. And yet Boylan struggled with trying to be a male.

I think that some sizable fraction of transgendered people realize very early, surely some of them by the age of five, that something isn't right. They get into trouble for things that they don't properly understand as wrong. They are attracted to the "wrong" sexes clothes, sensitivities and behaviors and they get told they are out of line. It seems to me that thereby many TG's get "socialized" into the "rules" reconciling gender and sex and that many actually do their best to conform.

Unfortunately this seems to result in subverting their true interests into clandestine behaviors that yield a lot of guilt, particularly with regard to issues that others are quick to condemn including gender incongruent apparel, hair style, use of make-up, lack of machismo, etc. How many friends and family would notice psychological turmoils with little external manifestation over things like muscle or breast growth?

It seems to me that because of socialization, TG's are pushed to convince themselves that they are weirdos for their "perverse" fetish-like interests. Consequently they are forced to try to manage their urges at odd hours and circumstances where family and critical social contacts are not around.

Re Boylan: it is my understanding that she attempted to meet the obligations of being male...getting married and siring children...before ultimately giving in to a deep seated need to be who she felt she really was.

While I recognize the inherent risk of parents and psychologists getting gender recognition wrong I also wouldn't wish decades of guilt and social conflict on anyone who by the age of 5 is manifesting a conflict between gender and biological endowment.

[LostinVA]

90. You're correct re: Jenny Boylan

She knew she was female from the time she was very small, but knew that was "wrong," so struggled mightily to be a "real man" -- married, had kids, etc., even though she knew it was completely wrong and not fair to anyone.

Her book is great: the changes she went through when she started hormone therapy are fascinating -- she went through puberty at supersonic speed. Poor thing!

[LeftyMom]

34. This isn't a matter of sexuality

Transpeople can be attracted to the same or opposite sex of thier brain gender or both or neither, just like the rest of us. Gender is not sexuality. Gender is a more basic form of identity.

I have a five year old myself. I haven't the feintest clue what his sexuality is as he's too young for it to have manifested in a way that is obvious to me (though he may have some idea) but his gender is exceedingly obvious, he carries himself differently than female children, is more agressive and generally carries himself in the ways one expects of a male (though he is somewhat more nurturant than a typical male.) His brain gender, and it's disparity from his outwardly observable genital gender, would be no less obvious though obviously socially problematic, if he'd prefered to behave and identify as a female since he began to understand the distinction.

[LostinVA]

36. Thank you -- I said that up thread

BIG confusion on here with some people not understanding that gender, sexuality identity, societal "norms" aren't the same thing....

And, THANKS ALOT. I read your post about the Farm Sanctuary the other day, and went and looked at their website... I was a mess at work most of the day because some of it upset me so much... *sob*

[Branjor]

39. I understand perfectly well....

"Gender" is such things as whether one is "masculine" or "feminine", both or neither. By "sexuality identity", I am not sure if you are talking about sexual orientation, such as gay, straight, bi or biological sex such as male or female. "Societal norms" are those which specify which mindset goes with which biological sex, that is, a "feminine" mind goes with a biologically female body and a "masculine" mind with a biologically male one. I understand these distinctions perfectly well.

[msmcghee]

58. No, gender is not masculinity or femininity . .

There are men who are feminine and women who are masculine. Gender is identity. It is who you are in your own mind and how others relate to you in that gender dimension.

Sometimes, we are born with a gender identity different from the usual genital mapping. That's not a terrible thing itself. But, the problem comes when others insist on relating to you according to your genitals - in a way different from who you know you are.

As soon as you are old enough to see that people relate to males and females differently (about 2-1/2 to 3), you will want others to relate to you in a way consistent with the person you know yourself to be.

Little boys (in their minds, no matter what their genitals look like) will want others to see them and relate to them as boys and vice versa.

One way to explain this to people who can't imagine what it would be like, is this. Do you believe yourself to be male or female? Now, imagine that everyone in the world treated you and related to you as the other one - no matter what you said to correct them. Instead, imagine that they treated you as a freak and mentally disturbed for insisting that your gender was different from your genitals.

Now, imagine further what this would be like for a confused three year old - who wants desperately to be loved and pleased with his or her self in others' eyes.

Now, you might have a glimmering of what that could be like for TG persons - depending on your ability to fully imagine that scenario and all its consequences for your life.

Another poster recommended the film "Ma Vie en Rose". I highly recommend it.

[Branjor]

62. Wrong...

**No, gender is not masculinity and femininity**

Then why is the article and the posts above FULL of details about how feminine transgender boys are in support of their claim to be "girls"?

**There are men who are feminine and women who are masculine**

You are KIDDING. I had no IDEA. <sarcastic emphasis>

**Gender is identity. It is who you are in your own mind**

This truly is all in their minds.

**Do you believe yourself to be male or female? Now, imagine that everyone in the world treated you and related to you as the other one**

I am female. If I was treated as and related to as the other I would probably have been treated better and with a lot more respect in my life. I have been treated as a freak and mentally disturbed for not living out female "norms" many times.

[readmoreoften]

67. Yet when you walk down the street no one mistakes you for male.

When my partner, who is biologically female, walks down the street s/he is called both sir and maam. People ask her from across the street: Are you a man or a woman? S/he is on no hormones and dresses androgenously much of the time, but not necessarily hyper-masculine, and yet she was escorted out of the women's bathroom at Carnegie Hall by security because a woman was convinced that she was a man.

Has this happened to you recently? Why would it happen? I know why. But you seem to fail to believe it.

[Branjor]

69. How do you know

whether or not anyone mistakes me for a male as I walk down the street? You have an enormous number of ASSumptions about what I am like/look like.

**dresses androgenously**

That is a funny slip. You thought you were saying "androgynously", but instead said "androgenously", which means "like androgen", or "male" hormone.

[readmoreoften]

70. I dont... that's why I asked. Has it happened recently?

Do people mistake you for a man?

[Branjor]

71. They do if I dress a certain way...n/t

[readmoreoften]

74. Interesting. It's never happened to me.

Even when I wear clothes from the men's section. But my gender is also very femme. So...

Are little girls who dress like little girls also suckered into accepting social norms? Are we all suckered unless we wear unisex clothes? Or should we rapidly cycle between various genders to prove that gender means nothing. On those "certain" days that you are mistaken for a male, why do choose to dress that way? Do you feel the same as you do in a dress?

I'm with you to a degree. For example, I think that there is particular pressure on many butch lesbians to transition these days. But I also know many very happy transmen and women. This is an old phenomena, not just the dress, but the body modification. Why do you think?

[Branjor]

72. self delete...n/t

[REP]

85. This Is What Is Puzzling to Me, But I Think It's Me

Do you believe yourself to be male or female? Now, imagine that everyone in the world treated you and related to you as the other one - no matter what you said to correct them. Instead, imagine that they treated you as a freak and mentally disturbed for insisting that your gender was different from your genitals.

There's no doubt what gender I am - my genitalia is unambiguous and I could not pass for the other gender to save my life. Yet I do not "feel" my gender strongly - it's secondary (or lower) to my identity. If I woke up in the body of the other gender I'd have to relearn some social behavior, but beyond that (well, and explaining to my SO) it wouldn't be a disruption to my life or identity.

My SO (who is somewhat androgynous) doesn't feel a strong gender-attachment, either. Either we're two odd people, or perhaps lacking a strong connection to gender as identity is not uncommon, which might perhaps explain why some (not all; I'm talking about people who don't understand but make an honest effort to try to understand) people really don't understand TG.

[Branjor]

66. Same here....

I would like to work at Farm Sanctuary some day when I am freer to move around.

[kapkao]

87. yes, it's another form of excessive individuality gone berserk. (nt)

[Guy Fawkes]

40. edited: (RTFA)

There is a saying: RTFA, or "Read the Fucking Article."
After finishing the article, I reverse my previous statement (though 5 is pretty young).

[David Zephyr]

49. Brave Parents! Moral Parents! Loving Parents.

Thumbs up to these parents.

[MrSlayer]

53. Well this kid's life is going to be absolute hell.

"Few will know the truth". What bullshit that is. This kid is going to be tortured for the next 13 years.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

55. Eh. She's five years old.

If she changes her mind, she can always wear pants. No big deal. Beats the alternative.

[LostinVA]

91. Her life would be worse if she was forced to live a lie

I'll say it again: I sincerely recommend Jennifer Boylan's "She's Not Here," for those who want to understand this issue better. She's a well-known writer (mainly under her "old" name) and a very good writer, and is honest and engaging. She was on Oprah right before the book came out, and made me understand -- and feel -- for the first time what this is all about. I'm gay, so I could understand a little part of it (ie being expected to follow the "normalness" of society).

[jerry611]

76. Isnt that a little early to make that determination?

The brain hasn't even partially developed yet.

Even some teens will go through phases like that...

[readmoreoften]

82. Did you read the article? I think it's pretty clear if you do.

1) "After two years of examination, they have determined that he is not simply effeminate or going through a phase."

2) The soon-to-be kindergartner looks quite feminine, cartwheeling around the yard and playing with dolls. Pat says he hates his penis, and he refuses to wear boys' clothing.

3)Pat's parents had never heard of gender dysphoria until they took their child for treatment. He was insisting that he was a girl, and often tried to hide his penis between his legs.

This child has been insisting she's a girl since she was two and despises her anatomy.

[kapkao]

86. I didn't know individualism was this melodramatic. Stuck in the 70s, jah?

I suddenly feel very nauseated at the prospect of being an individual. I HEREBY REQUEST AN IMMEDIATE TRANSFER TO THE BORG COLLECTIVE. I WANT TO BE ASSIMILATED! Bonus points if I get some really cool implants.. I don't want my individuality anymore! Purge me of it!


Yes I understand what gender dysphoria is. No, I don't sympathize with those who are so unable to cope with their external reality that their mental existence is completely at odds with their physiological existence. I believe his parents have set him on a rocky, winding path. Life isn't going to be very fair once puberty and the vicious politics of adolescence set in. If he is anything like his much older brethren, than he enjoys being in the spotlite much more than is healthy.

Besides that, I am bisexual, and this thread/article is getting waaayyy too queered for me.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

98. So all transfolk enjoy being in the spotlight to an unhealthy degree?

I don't think you understand gender dysphoria at all.

[LostinVA]

108. Agreed n/t

[lostnfound]

92. "private matter between the parents, school administrators and the child"

Writing about it in the newspaper seems a great way to enflame the unenlightened and without more discussion of the how and why, not likely to enlighten most readers.

Far more enlightening was a NOVA program on the reality that a signficant number of babies are born BOTH male and female, and of mismatches between chromosones and physical characteristics. I think it was called "Boy or girl?" and it is a great way to blow the mind of the rightwingers who think that sexual identity is all about morality or good and evil.

"God don't make no junk."

[theboss]

96. How can a five year old possibly have this level of self-awareness?

A three year can barely communicate. How could this child have been under examination at that age - if the "two years" is to be believed?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

99. Some three year olds can communicate quite well.

You probably knew if you were a boy or a girl at five years old. This child knows that she is a girl and she should be allowed to live as one.

[theboss]

103. When I was five, I thought I was a puppy at times

I may just not be enlightened, but something in this story is not right.

[LostinVA]

109. You were making believe you were a puppy

Nothing in this story is wrong -- it's just about textbook.

[slackmaster]

100. After reading replies I've decded the headline is misleading

Shouldn't it read "Five-year-old South Florida transgender girl will enter school as a girl"?

:wtf:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

101. Yes, except the media is rarely so enlightened.

[slackmaster]

102. They should read this thread

It's taught me quite a lot that I had no clue about.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

112. Thank you for being open-minded.

I'm not trans, but I know a few transpeople and the discrimination they face can be unreal.

[slackmaster]

116. Thanks for your patience

The topic is difficult for me, especially since we are talking about a young, innocent child.

[never cry wolf]

106. What happens at puberty?

This is a serious question. This little girl will have girlfriends she has had for more than half her life and in 7 or 8 years they will all start growing breasts while she will start getting body and facial hair.

Can they do hormone therapy before puberty? I'd be real curious if anyone knows about this.

If not at some point will she have to give it up and at least be androgynous instead of female? Will she be able to maintain and "pass" by hair removal and breast forms?

I understand (somewhat) and am sympathetic to these sort of issues. I am not sure where I fall. I am a hetero male, married, father of two who has often wished he was a woman, enjoys TG fiction and has crossdressed many times for many years (in private only.) I don't hate my penis and feel I am in the right body, I just wonder how things are on the other side (with more than just a of bit envy.)

[LeftyMom]

107. We had an MTF woman young a few classes ahead of me at school

Everybody knew she was trans (for one thing, she had a masculine name) but she was on hormones and didn't look even slightly male. I don't know but assume the hormones were started around puberty, either that or she was just blessed with much more feminine body type and features than any other transwoman I've ever laid eyes upon. A random stranger meeting her for the first time would not have had any reason to know that she was born with male genitalia.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

113. I know a friend of a friend who started on testosterone when he hit

puberty. He was transitioning from female to male and he also came out as trans as a child. Apparently, the hormones caused less side effects than older users generally experienced. He had been living completely as a male for several years in school and it never became an issue. He was very fortunate to have gone to a liberal Boston public school.

[theboss]

111. Another question: what happens in gym class in fifth grade?

At age 10 or 11, most schools make you change for gym (if schools even make the fat little buggers take gym any more). What locker room does she get?

My dad's an elementary principal. I need his take on this.