Iraqi female's age "debatable"?

[gatorboy]

They were doing a story on "Morning Edition" this morning with some guest whose name escapes me, who tried to squirm around the age of the girl murdered and raped in Iraq (The guest stayed in safe territory and kept referring to her as "female").

When one of the NPR hosts called him on it asking whether she was a woman or a girl, the guest said the age was still "debatable" because even those her own family and neighbors say she was 14-15, the military insists she was 20-25.

[AngryOldDem]

1. Why does her age matter? She was raped and killed.

Just a rhetorical question.

[kentuck]

2. Exactly!

:mad:

[VelmaD]

4. don't even go there...

I was pilloried last week for being upset that the rape and murder of adult women is not taken as seriously.

[Juffo Wup]

5. That would be the intelligent response

But, as we all know, she probably "deserved it" if she was of age. Such is the mentality of a right-winger.

[Mass]

6. Exactly.

[gatorboy]

8. I'm not questioning whether the act is less or more heinous

when you take age into account. The point is that officials are still sidestepping the age. Because in their minds, it does make a difference.

[AngryOldDem]

11. I know you're not

But the fact that this point has even been brought up for debate (the NPR report, not your post) is revolting. But not surprising. Unfortunately. Nothing excuses what happened. NOTHING.

[LostinVA]

20. Exactly n/t

[Arkansas Granny]

19. Her age doesn't matter at all. Rape is rape, murder is murder.

The age of the person in question does not change the fact that violent acts were committed against her and her family.

[ComerPerro]

34. Because raping a "woman" isn't as offensive as raping a "girl"

[smirkymonkey]

43. To whom? You? a guy?

give me a fucking break. :eyes:

[ComerPerro]

50. Hey, don't get pissed at me. Im just saying thats how it is

I'm not saying that its right

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

63. I completely agree

The rape of anyone, male or female - woman, girl, man, boy is very, very serious and should be taken seriously. But I think the younger the age of the victim, the more aggravating the circumstance. Let's take it to the extreme in, for example, the case of a 6 year old girl raped and murdered. Juries would probably be far more likely to give a death sentence even with strong mitigating circumstances than in the case of the rape and murder of an adult.

It's not that any rape isn't a very serious thing including the rape of an adult woman. But I for one find it far more cruel, depraved, and barbaric to rape and murder a child than an adult, if I were asked what type of penalty to impose, life imprisonment or the death penalty. And that applies to the rape and murder of both young boys and young girls.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

35. Weird obsession with teens and sex.

Excerpt:

poster 1: I hope that Steve Green guy gets what's coming to him.

poster 2: Who's Steve Green?

poster 1: He's that guy who raped that 15 year old girl.

...

poster 1: Oh yeah, and he also killed her and the rest of her family.

[RaleighNCDUer]

38. It is a paradoxical reality --

While the rape and murder of an adult woman is not less heinous, the rape and murder of a young girl is more heinous.

[readmoreoften]

51. The answer is very simple. Non-white women don't matter.

Because the Pentagon knows that most conservatives news viewers do not value the lives of non-white women. But they cannot justify the murder of any child because it goes against their own rhetoric of the perfect innocence of children.

Let me translate into conservative speak:

1) "A woman was raped and murdered today."

Conservative response: That's unfortunate. There's probably more to the story, though. The women over there are nothing like our women over here. She probably was a prostitute or some other desirable. You can't really say if it was rape. Maybe it was just consensual sex gone wrong. Maybe they were having rough sex and she accidentally hit her head. Well, after all, the wages of sin is death. Maybe she sent him mixed signals. Maybe she was cheating on him with another guy. This just a bunch of liberal BS.

2) A child was raped and murdered today.

Conservative response. Well... well that's not right. I mean? How young? 17-18? Are we sure it's not his girlfriend. What? She was 14. Well. He should have know better. 14 is too young. That guy is a sicko. A bad apple. What it was a bunch of them? A bunch of bad apples.

The only way a conservative will respond to the rape of a woman is if she is white and the assailant is not. That is the conservative definition of rape. Or when it happens to your wife or daughter.

[sendero]

61. I agree..

.. this obsession so many here have with her age is ludicrous. Is the crime any less heinous if she was 20? I think not, no, I know not.

Focusing on details that don't matter are a Wingnut passtime - let's leave it to them.

[HuffleClaw]

62. erm, because crimes against children are seen as more of an atrocity

by the public? and so, of course, the powers that be are attempting to remove that factor by fudging her age.

[5X]

3. I heard that too, NPR chose to go with one military source...

as opposed to later military reports and birth
certificates and the doctors.

[Skidmore]

7. You know, I saw a picture of her identification card on an earlier

thread and calculating her age should be pretty self-evident, even for our stuipid media. That she and her family were violated and killed is enough, but it is made more reprehensible by the fact that this soldier stalked, raped, and murdered a child.

[liberalitch]

14. I've never seen a pic....

So she was a baby?
Poor little thing.

[Skidmore]

17. Yes, there was picture of her photo id card on a thread I saw much earlier

this morning. This is the thread. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=1598109

She was just a baby in the photo. It made me tear up because she looked a bit like my daughter (all so partially of ME descent) at about that age.

[wakeme2008]

9. It is not debatable with me

One of many links

http://story.malaysiasun.com/p.x/ct/9/cid/b8de8e630faf3631/id/049cef701e551ec6/

Reuters said the girl, whose name was Abeer Qasim Hamza al-Janabi, was born on August 19, 1991 in Baghdad, referring to her identity card, provided to the newsagency by a relative. Issued in 1993, it features a photograph of her at 18 months, wide-eyed and with a lick of dark hair over her brow.

A copy of her death certificate, dated March 13, gives the same birth date. She was found at home by a relative on March 12 and had died from "gunshot wounds to the head, with burns", said the document, signed by doctor Wael Habib and a registrar.


..more at link..

[Benhurst]

10. Of course it's not debatable.

Whose word would you trust, the person's family and friends or the World's Only Superpower?

Have representatives of the junta ever lied to you? I thought not.

Move on. Nothing to see here. Work will make you free.

[H2O Man]

15. Right.

It's also not debatable that she would have become 22 if she were not murdered. She was a human being who had her life destroyed in the most brutal manner possible.

[liberalitch]

12. A fellow human being was tortured and killed.....

her family was murdered.
There is nothing to argue.
I want them to face a jury of that family's peers, not their own.
I don't want to hear that "Fog of War" shit..... plenty of soldiers/sailors/marines experience the exact same things and keep their moral integrity.

[The Stranger]

13. Guess they don't want to be "Support[ing] the Pedophiles!"

[Aviation Pro]

16. Uhhh, experts, does....

...it really fucking matter what the fuck the victims fucking age was? She was fucking raped and murdered, fucking morons, age doesn't fucking matter, asshats. Now go down to Aruba and try to make a linkage to Natalee Hollaway, you fucking mind-numbed, valueless jerkoffs.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blm]

18. 20-25yo with 5 yo siblings are few and far between.

.

[Jack Rabbit]

21. How very Bush-like

Is somebody thrying to defend a heinous crime by saying gee, maybe it wasn't so heinous because the victim was an adult rather than a teenage girl?

Gee, what next? Dig into the victim's past and find she had loose morals? If that doesn't work, loose morals by the standards of an Islamic fundamentalist?

The Bush bubbahs need to get a life.

[gatorboy]

24. Did you see this story?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060709/ts_nm/iraq_rape_dc_14

"The age of consent with parental approval in Iraq is 15, though it is not uncommon for girls to marry younger in rural areas."

------------------------------------------------------------------

What's this line have to do with anything that had happened? That they felt the need to put this in the story could suggest that the media is trying to taint the story with some "loose morals" talking points.

[AngryOldDem]

26. Rape is still rape, and dead is still dead

I saw the Reuters story, and my first thought was that they were perhaps trying to frame it in "cultural" terms -- that the age of consent is different in Iraq, yadda, yadda, yadda. That may well be. But it's still beside the point.

Bottom line was, is, and always will be: A young woman (how's that for an all-encompassing description?) and her family wound up dead. And yes, some of our troops ARE capable of doing some very bad things. Can't put an exculpatory spin on any of this, and the military should just stop trying to do so.

[rman]

65. and child rape is still child rape

[jwirr]

28. The age of consent has nothing to do with this case except in the

minds of the rw whores. This girl would have had a good marriage to a man who her family approved of and would have had the chance to become a mother. These soldier boys have denied her that right. Yes it is Islam custom to marry cousins but why is that any of our business? Again that fact has nothing to do with this case. This is a case of rape and murder period.

[Crunchy Frog]

33. I just sent a comment to Reuters about that.

I would urge everyone to do the same. This page has the a list of contact information. http://today.reuters.com/HelpAndInfo/ContactUs.aspx I clicked on "Contact a Reuters Editor", and got a feedback form.

I think it would be a very good idea for Reuters to here from alot of people about this. They should be aware that people are noticing it, and not very impressed with this aspect of their coverage.

[Jack Rabbit]

39. You're right. It has nothing to do with the story.

The story is rape and murder. The age of the victim or the local customs have nothing to do with it.

If one wants to focus on the story and provide some mitigating circumstances, then focus on the stress of soldiers in a combat environment. These soldiers shouldn't be where they are. We have no business telling Iraqis how to run their country how they are going to distribute their natural wealth or in what currency they are going to price it. That doesn't excuse the act, but on the other hand there is no reason to believe that the soldiers in this case would have raped and murdered a young woman under normal circumstances.

Five soldiers will go on trial for this act. That is as it should be. They and they alone must answer for it. Nevertheless, the crooked politicians who couldn't wait to invade Iraq and set Bremer to issuing his hundred decrees share the moral responsibility for what stressed out soldier may do. If it were not for their avarice, those stressed out soldiers would not be stressed out soldiers.

[uppityperson]

48. consent to MARRY with parent's permission.

I agree with your analysis gatorboy, thanks.

[greenbriar]

22. It doesn't fucking matter whether she was 14 or 104 it was still horribly

wrong

and should be punished by having their dicks cut off

[mike_c]

23. well, that makes all the difference in the world....

Shame on her for being ambiguous about her age! Those poor soldiers were likely duped into raping and killing her on false pretenses! They're the real victims....

OMFG.

[jwirr]

25. I believe there is a birth certificate on another post here at DU

that places her at 14.

[Cocoa]

27. the "debate" ended yesterday

guess what? The family and neighbors knew how old she was.

Honest mistake by the military, I guess...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1598109

[Benhurst]

29. I'm sure it was an honest mistake made by the military.

Many high school dropouts have trouble distinguishing a "1" from a "2."

:patriot: :patriot: :patriot:

Support our troops no matter what they do!

We're Number ONE!

The World's Only Supperpower!

Truth, Justice and the BushAmerican Way!

[Vidar]

30. Rape & murder is fine , as long as it isn't a child or embryo.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

31. The Right approaches adult rape and paedophillia differently

When it comes to rape of an adult female, the Right assumes that "she wanted it" and "she led him on" and will blame the victim. Blaming the victim in child rape is a harder ask since the Right uses an anti-paedophillia stance in order to disingenuously equate paedophillia and homosexuality. The Right wants to protect suspected war criminals but it makes it harder for them when child rape is involved.

Rape is rape, but unfortunately the Right feels that rape of an adult women is easier to excuse, and by interpreting the rape of an adolescent as an 'adult' it fits their purpose.

[lukasahero]

32. Excellent analysis. Thank you. eom

[Anarcho-Socialist]

40. Thank you kindly

:)

[KoKo]

36. You nailed it....the outrage over pedophilia is more widespread with

"those folks" than the outrage of rape no matter what the age or gender...

BushCo doesn't want their troops to be involved with Child Rape where they can't do disinformation. Too hard for Tweety Matthews to have some guy on saying "She asked for it be cause she winked at a check point guy."

:-( Important for the truth about her age to come out...if they will ever let it...but Rape is Rape ...violation and brutality.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

42. That's exactly it, 'Rape is Rape' n/t

[smirkymonkey]

44. I understand the right making that distinction, but we have had

a few DU'ers making that very same judgement.

[helderheid]

37. Her ID card is pretty damned clear.

[Ms. Clio]

52. maybe it was forged by Al-Qaeda just to make the U.S. look bad

that's why her brothers and cousins and neighbors are lying about her age, too.

[uppityperson]

54. her death certificate too. The one the military has had for months.

The one they must've forgotten to look at when they finally released this story.

[Warren DeMontague]

41. Yeah. They'll debate it. I'll tell you what they should debate

whether we pull all the troops out of there this Wednesday, or Thursday. That's what the fucking debate should be.

[Redstone]

45. How about if anyone who thinks it's worth debating, come on over

and debate my ass.

That's utterly fucking despicable.

Redstone

[uppityperson]

47. Me too. They had her death cert that said 14.

Now they have her ID card that says 14. Come debate this with me too. Yes, I am getting peeved.

[madmusic]

55. Read this

You'll have to take it up with those who told the FBI that. That is if you can get to them before they are executed.

http://news.findlaw.com/wp/docs/iraq/usgreen63006cmp.html

[uppityperson]

56. I have read that. I want to know how high to coverup goes.

at least as high as whomever told the FBI that.

[madmusic]

57. Green's co-defendants told them that n/t

Edit 's

[uppityperson]

58. The "alleged" criminals, not their superiors that had access to death cert

I see.

[madmusic]

69. No one had access during the swearing of the warrant.

[uppityperson]

46. If Abeer's age doesn't matter, why are they fudging it?

Seriously. BOTH her birth and death certificate say she was 14. IF it doesn't matter (dead is dead is dead is dead), why the hell did the military say she was 10 yrs older than her death certificate that they had says? WHY? They lied, they tried to cover it up, they lied. Why?

Manipulation. Because they knew that if the report got out that this was as it was, people would be more upset because of the tendency to want to protect the young and the elderly, those that need more protection. So, rather than saying "it doesn't matter because dead is dead", answer me this, Why did they lie?

[Ms. Clio]

53. Bing-O

we are so on the same wavelength on this.

And also, why no investigation from the beginning? There was a crime scene -- there were photos of that crime scene, according to the investigator's affidavit. There were immediate reports of a rape-murder to the military and police. But no autopsies and no investigation and no legal tribunal at all until now, because it became unavoidable.

And still the attempts to obscure the facts and to keep the lies circulating.

COVER-UP.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

71. She was stalked for days beforehand - Green et al stalked a child for sex

They made advances against a child which led to this incident (according to the allegations of the family). The girl complained to her family that the soldiders were making "advances" towards her. While rape and murder of anyone is horrible, child stalking and child molestation make it worse.

[uppityperson]

72. he "allegedly" lusted, stalked, raped knowing he would then kill her

Actually, he killed her mother, father and little sister before raping and killing her but that wouldn't all fit in subject line.

How could anyone do this? (rhetorical question)

[Ms. Clio]

49. So her death certificate and government identification aren't enough?

right, the military didn't even autopsy the body.

[Avalux]

60. Why does it matter? She was still raped and murdered.

I don't care if she was 15, 20, 30, 50 or 80. She was a human being, she was violated and suffered horrific pain to the likes we can't comprehend. Sick they'd argue over her age.

[uppityperson]

64. they want to downplay it, think that it'll cause less turmoil if not minor

and they are right for a lot of the masses who just don't care. Unlike us. What matters is military and media are trying to manipulate the situation to downplay/coverup it. Really sick.

[madmusic]

68. less turmoil?

This is sick. Really.

A 5-year-old girl's arms were broken and she was murdered along with her parents.

She was tortured and murdered!

Sometimes it seems some wish she were raped, too, so there would be more turmoil.

[rman]

66. She was still a child

Arguably the pain suffered by a child as a result of rape is in fact worse than the pain suffered by an adult. Some crimes -are- worse than other crimes.

[Jeanette in FL]

67. My local news called her "A young Iraqi female"

Here is what I just sent them. We need to call our media each and every time they miss represent the truth.

I would like to take you to task in the reporting done this morning at 5am.

Tammy Field's in reporting on an Al Jazeera video saying that our three soldier's were killed for the revenge of a "young Iraqi female". Oh, yes, she was a "young Iraqi female". That is the cleansed version. She was a 14 year old child, in every sense of the word. Oh and by the way her name was, Abeer Qasim Hamza al-Janabi with a date of birth of August 19, 1991.

I don't appreciate my news sanitized.

Thank you, Jeanette

[Mir]

70. Why is noone talking about

The age of her mother. The mother - by all accounts - was 34. Now the age doesn't matter when it comes to rape and murder, but Jesus, do the math. This was a 14 year old girl, born to a 20 year old woman 14 years ago. Are we to take the word of the lying f-ing Pentagon over that of the people who knew her all her life and go ahead and believe that she was a "woman" born to a fourteen or nine year old girl 20 or 25 years ago? Jeeeeez. She was a child.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

73. how dare you apply logic and rational thought to this? Don't you

know that spin, excuses ad cover-ups are so much more important? Besides, a woman is less worthy of attention because she is Iraqi. A child, on the other hand, has fewer cultural disabilities, and therefor we cannot allow her age to be 14. Actually, I am sure that documents will soon come out that she was really 32 (she had a REALLY young mother) and that she fathered 4 terra-ist bombers who killed US troops. Therefore, there was no crime.

god, I want to be sick for even thinking like a bushista. please excuse me.