Is homosexuality a barrier to becoming a Mason?

[ohio_liberal]

This has been bothering me for quite a while now, so I decided that I should ask the freemasons on the board. I understand if anyone is unable to answer the question.

My brother is the grand poobah of the local lodge. A man who we both know approached him and asked for an application to join the lodge. This is a very nice human being, a local business owner and a respected member of the community. He also has three brothers that are openly gay. Normally I wouldn't consider interjecting myself into of this sort of discussion but my brother asked me at Christmas if I thought the potential applicant was gay. Well hell, I don't know, the guy is only my mechanic and the question didn't pop up during discussions of fuel pumps and cold air intakes. And quite frankly I never cared about his sexual preferences. I asked why it mattered and got a blank stare. That raised my hackles and I asked if he was considering denying the man an application because he might or might not be gay. He finally said that they could not consider letting a gay man join.

Is it common to deny a person because they might be gay?

[rfranklin]

1. In my experience, the Masons are not exactly a bastion of liberalism...

but I may be ignorant of other facts. Don't they have a secret handshake and such?

[Tab]

3. Once upon a time

they were rife with secret codes and meanings and symbols (and yes, probably handshakes too).

I don't know their policy on gays, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was very conservative.

[kevinbgoode]

24. Wait - we don't even KNOW if this guy is gay or not

And I think the outrageous thing here isn't just the idea that they would deny membership based on an entirely unrelated characteristic, but even on the SUSPICION of that characteristic. Frankly, I'd take your brother out to the woodshed on this one. Exactly what basis does belonging to a club have to do with the direction someone's peepee points? Unless it was some breeder boy's club, in which case I'd be hauling their asses into court over porn.

[ohio_liberal]

29. I did my friend, I did

I didn't mention it above because I wasn't sure how relevant it was but let's just say I totally let him have it verbally. I was pissed off in a big way. I still am.

[FreedomAngel82]

53. Right

Ridiculous indeed. Who gives a damn what someone does in the privacy of their own life? Oy! What if it was the other way around? And George Washington was a Free Mason. I've never read or heard if he was gay or not.

[Jara sang]

11. Men alone, in dark rooms, secret rituals...

Tell me there isn't some hanky-panky going on there.

[KittyWampus]

27. Each Lodge Is Different. "Liberalism" varies according to individual

members.

Yes, they have a secret handshake... so does my Ritual group which meets in the NYC Masonic Lodge.

[Midlodemocrat]

2. I think so. I don't know all that much about the Masons, but

I do believe they are pretty right wing. When my mom broke her hip 7 years ago, she was in rehab at a Masonic Hospital, but as a Catholic, we had to pull some serious strings to get her in.

Might just be that particular hospital, though. I really don't know.

:shrug:

[Jeffersons Ghost]

22. While I'm not a Freemason...

I DO know a bit about that benevolent and egalitarian group. In history, I can name at least two Catholics that were not only prominent Masons but also OCCULT WRITERS. One even studied for the priesthood but never took final vows. Lumping all Masonic Lodges together is as bad as racial profiling. Each lodge has freedom to use or not use secret hand-shakes and other fun stuff that consolidates any team or group.

[fishwax]

49. whatever

"Lumping all Masonic Lodges together is as bad as racial profiling."

those poor Masons! :eyes:

[NNN0LHI]

50. Would you mind naming the 2 prominent Catholic Masons you speak of?

I hate being held in suspense. Thanks in advance.

Don

[Dorian Gray]

63. At the Shriner hospital?

(Those are related to Masons.) I thought that they'd provide healthcare to anybody, regardless of religion.

[CJCRANE]

4. Sorry bud

I can't tell you unless you can do the secret handshake.

[ohio_liberal]

9. LOL

I don't know any secret handshakes. In fact, my brother said very clearly that he would never be my sponsor to join the Eastern Star because I am immoral. So I'm a complete reject. Heh.

[formercia]

25. My wife is a member of Eastern Star

I wouldn't call her a prude. At 48, she's the youngest member in the area. They keep consolidating chapters as the members die off. She wanted me to join the Masons but it is too stuffed shirt for me.They are not all conservatives either. One elderly matron said things about Fearless Leader that I couldn't repeat here and two of my conservative Republican Freemason inlaws called Fearless Leader a "worthless idiot" over holiday dinner.

[ohio_liberal]

33. Oh, I wasn't really interested in joining

It came up in conversation last year at Christmastime when one of my uncles mentioned that I *could* join and my brother could sponsor me. He said no way, and I said no thanks. ;)

[formercia]

34. They are not supposed to ask

but someone might make a suggestion.

[polmaven]

67. I am a member of Eastern Star...

...or was...until the second Chapter consolidation put the meetings in a place that was way too conservative for my taste.

I can not by any stretch of the imagination be called conservative. The only way to do that would be to be as truthful as a member of the Bush administration. Many members are conservative, though. The Chapter I joined, and served as the Worthy Poobah was in a much less conservative community, and had many more liberal members.

[FreedomAngel82]

54. Immoral?

By who's standards? :eyes: Ugh. I can't stand this judgmental crap. Who died and made them God or gods? AH!

[ohio_liberal]

61. That's just it, I don't know WHY I would be considered immoral

Maybe because I'm divorced? That can't be it, because my brother and one of my uncles is divorced. I'm not promiscuous, I don't steal, pay my bills on time. Maybe because I raised someone else's biracial child? Because I'm single now? Hell, I don't know :shrug:

[SheilaT]

5. The Masons

are a private group, and so can probably deny membership based on anything they want. Here's a link to what looks like an official website about them: http://www.grandlodgeofvirginia.org/whomason.htm

[Tab]

6. There's quite the article here...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonry

And I note that men who are admitted have to be of "good morals, and of good repute", so you can draw your own conclusion from that phrase.

[ohio_liberal]

12. I always knew there were issues of morality involved

But some of what's going on here seems so hypocritical. Some of these guys I know who already belong, and that includes my own flesh and blood, are not exactly what I'd call beacons of moral superiority.

[Tab]

13. From what I've seen

those who preach morality the loudest are often the most hypocritical and not at all moral themselves.

The rest of us know we're not moral, so we don't claim a morality we ourselves don't practice.

[FreedomAngel82]

55. Exactly

Plenty of examples to point to in the republican party (politicians).

[KittyWampus]

30. Do you know any organizations that wish to admit members who are

dissolute?

Freemasonry is, at it's heart, a fraternity based on universal and spiritual truths. It automatically follows that potential members need to be, on some level, CONSIOUSLY ready and willing to follow a more evolved and spiritual path.

[0007]

7. I've been asked twice in my life to make application on strong

recommendations to a secret organization like the Masons. Twice I refused with lame excuses for not wanting to be a part of their tribe.

I think you're brother could be right.

[khashka]

8. It varies from Lodge to Lodge

Some are more accepting than others.

The one thing you can't be is Catholic.

Khash.

[ohio_liberal]

10. Thanks for the input

I wondered if it varied from area to area. I'm living in a very conservative blue-collar Democratic area that is not very tolerant of gays.

[rosesaylavee]

14. Is it the Pope thing

keeping Catholics out? I have a nifty book from the turn of the last century that supposedly exposed all their secrets written by Manly P Hall. Great illustrations - got it from an uncle who collected interesting books. As I was raised Catholic, I never noticed any reference to that faith in the book.

[Zambero]

16. The Catholic Church once forbade Masonic membership

But that's been relaxed from what I understand, and Masons are also more accepting of Catholics. The Catholic Church has a social order of its own, the Knights of Columbus, that has been charactized as a quasi-Mason organization.

[Bluerthanblue]

37. taking 'oaths'

to anything other than the Catholic Church- is the issue- Masons never excluded Catholics- Catholics who were devout about their faith, couldn't become masons because of their religion- not vice a versa.
The Jehoviah's Witnesses would have the same problem.

[Dorian Gray]

65. Actually,

The masons will accept Catholics. But, the Catholic Church has a decree out that if a Roman Catholic joins the masons, they, in effect, excommunicate themselves from the Catholic Church.

[Tace]

62. The Knights Templar And The Vatican Got In A Snit About 1,000 Years Ago...

over who would control Europe. It's just old, mythical grudges.

[notadmblnd]

68. from all I've read of free masons you are right

the only requirement of faith that I am aware of is a belief in a super natural diety, i.e God.

[Bluerthanblue]

36. not true- indeed you CAN be

any 'religion'- (including Catholic) to BECOME a Mason- however, you may be jepordizing you Catholic walk-
The Freemasons only recognize God, in the "higher power" perspective- I know this as the daughter of a dead Mason. And as one who was initiated into the Eastern Star- in some crazy fog of trying to 'be' what ever i was spozed to be in order for life to become 'safe' and 'predictable'-
I didn't 'demit'- (fancy word for quiting the club) but I also never truly 'joined' (in spirit).
Most Religious Right people consider the Masons to be demonic- and forbid anyone to participate in their 'cult'-
While the bible is used in many of their ...dogma....ritual... it is a very weird group- Believing that the mysteries of life lay somehow connected with King Solomon (and his gold). I personally believe it is something that gained power by way of its secrecy, AND exclusivity-

Now, if you want to argue who cannot be a Mason, being Black would have kept MANY a man out of the 'lodges' in my childhood- something I never knew, questioned, or eventually sat silent about. The Shriners and Becktash Temple are related. I have relatives who were 33rd Degree Masons, and I also know many men who were 'lifetime bachelors' who were also in the fraternal order- My belief is that sexual orentation isn't something that most lodges would have much trouble with- but considering todays climate- nothing would surprise me.

(

[Jeffersons Ghost]

39. Bluerthanblue?

Does your name refer to "Blue Lodge?" Finally, someone (you) bring the truth about Freemasonry, as I know it, to the table. thanks

[Bluerthanblue]

42. actually-

my name came about because i was overjoyed that AT-LAST my home state (N.H.) had turned blue- and because i have a terminal case of 'ear-worm' that sings songs in my head continually- We turned blue, but still, didn't win- so i was "sadder than sad"- to see america stuck yet again. At a time when DU was letting us change our user name (my original name here was my real name).

My father was a decent man- he often lived in denial, or was tollerant of things that weren't 'fair' or 'right' or 'ok' because he believed and desperately desired the 'negative' to just dissapear.

I really read through his masonic stuff the day of his funeral, when his lodge did their 'funeral' for him- it was bizarre, and sad, and revealing. I asked him once about the 'secrets' And he said that they took an oath, something about grains of sand, and un-ending tidal waves punishing anyone who 'gave-away' the 'truth'. I didn't ask more- It was like asking him about what the war was like for him-.... something that he couldn't un-earth, and be ok with.

And i loved him- for being the tender-hearted imperfect giant of a man that he was.

Thanks for asking-

[Jeffersons Ghost]

44. thanks blue

I can't believe i missed the Blue-State connection. LOL What you post makes me think a question I ask later on this board will not be answered, if Masonic orders still take the path of Saint-Martin. All I can say about my direct contact with Masonry is that my dad either approached or was approached by a local brotherhood and considered joining for a month or so but in the final analysis did not become a member. All I've learned about Masonry and Martinism came from web sites sponsored by various Masonic Lodges. One that comes to mind is the California Freemason. Those conspiracy theory nut-sites that attack Masonry are absurd. Bashing Masons or ANY beneficial group other than the Republican Nazi Party, who only seek to benefit their Fuhrer, is wrong in my mind... But you know, in truth I have seen some other groups I might go after in print, if these Rep.etitious maniacs would stop abusing the Constitution long enough for me to research them. LOL... Masons, however, would never be one of them. I like their notion of trying every day to be a better person than they were the day before. I'm into self-improvement too but I do a solo act.

[Ian David]

15. Maybe start a new mason-like group for gay people. The Pink Masons? n/t

[TallahasseeGrannie]

17. I don't know the answer to your Mason question

but I'm intrigued by the concept of three gay brothers.

Is this common? What does that tell us about nature/nuture?

Anyone with experience in this?

[khashka]

18. I have a bunch of literature on the subject

gay siblings are hardly uncommon. But it's very difficult to sort out the nature/nurture question. The first response is it's genetic. After a little thought you realize they were raised by the same parents in the same environment....

If you are really interested, I recommend James Winreich's "Sexual Landscapes". He discusses his research and that of others. But it's not heavy going. It's very chatty and friendly. And he answers a lot of sexual questions. Or he at least provides the results of the research. It's really a great book. The sibling/homosexuality thing is especially interesting. From what I remember, the most common situations are gay brother/lesbian sister and gay uncle/gay nephew. So whatever is going on varies by gender and generation. But gay siblings are not rare.


Khash.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

19. Thanks, I'll check it out

there is a family at my church where the mom was a very, very serious alcoholic. She basically had no sobriety at all, and had been in and out of institutions all her married life. They had five sons and one daughter. All the sons are gay. The daughter is not.

I've always wondered nature/nurture there, genetic issues, etc.

This whole topic is fascinating and I hope someday we figure it all out so that people make choices about their lives and are not stuck one way or the other.

[khashka]

32. I don't think there is one answer

Some people are drawn to one gender or the other. Some are forced to choose (the obvious one being women who have been abused by men who choose to love other women because allowing themselves to be vulnerable with a man is simply too painful).

Assuming that the woman you spoke of was what you said of her.... the interesting thing is not that the boys were gay and the girl was straight. But something more basic: ALL of them chose to love and be loved by men. Of course it could be genetic. Or it could be that their experience with her left all of them unable to see a woman as loving and desirable.

In the end I don't really care. I find it intellectually interesting, but really I think everyone needs to find a way to find happiness and to find love. And if you can do that without hurting anyone it's nobody else's business.

Khash.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

40. I agree with your last statement

but I also love a good mystery.

In the case I cited the father was very nurturing. So who knows?

Thanks for the insight.

[FreedomAngel82]

56. Interesting

I've never heard that. Maybe it's kinda like how if you're a woman and you're around other women your cycles get timing together. :shrug:

[ohio_liberal]

20. It does bring up some questions, doesn't it?

Of course it wouldn't be polite for me to ask but I've wondered about them in an offhand sort of way and how they manage to thrive in such a conservative area. They live in the country in a sort of family compound. I don't mean like Branch Dividian compound, I mean that they all have houses on the same family-owned property. The Dad is not around and they all take care of Mom and Mom takes care of them. Most people who know them find them to be strange, if not outright weird. Personally I think they're A-ok. There are 5 brothers all together, one I know is straight, the one mentioned above is an unknown. The straight one I know is somewhat ostracized by hetero men because the three brothers are very flamboyantly gay. I guess to the local crackers they are guilty by association. I suppose that would explain why they tend to stick to themselves.

[FreedomAngel82]

57. How sad

:( Ugh. Just because someone like a sibling is one way doesn't mean you're that way and anyway it shouldn't matter. :(

[proud2BlibKansan]

21. Why would a gay man want to be a Mason?

None of my Catholic family members want to join; they seem to know that they are not welcome.

[Greyhound]

23. Why would a gay man want to be a repuke? It takes all kinds.

:shrug:

[FreedomAngel82]

58. Speaking of which

I remember seeing an episode of the "West Wing" and that subject came up. The character Josh asked one republican guy who was gay why he was a republican because of how they treated gay people. The republican guy said he believed in the political leanings of the republican party (and what they're supposed to believe in) and that's why he was a republican.

[ohio_liberal]

26. Nobody knows

The whole thing is that none of these men actually know if he's gay or not but they don't want to take the chance that a gay man might get in. And none of them will just come out and ask him.

[KittyWampus]

31. Why would a gay person want to be anything?

[proud2BlibKansan]

35. I have a hard time understanding why anyone would want to join a group

that rejects them. :shrug:

I know I don't want to be a Republican LOL.

[khashka]

38. Well, um, I'm gay

and I find being "anything" a very workable option :)


Khash.

[donheld]

28. Google "gay masons"

Oscar Wilde was a mason http://www.homestead.com/prosites-douglasmack/GayMasons.html

http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/ is interesting too.


http://www.daylightmasons.org/gaymasons.html
What is the Masonic policy on gay members?
There is nothing in the so-called Ancient Landmarks of Masonry that would forbid a gay man from joining. Of course there are gay men in Masonry. It is a simple thing, sexual orientation is not a determinate for admission, it is not even asked and that is a Masonic standard. The Washington Mason Code does not address the issue because each petitioner is judged by the lodge and its members.

Since membership is voted on by the members of the lodge, a situation of exclusivity could exist, as with any organization. For instance a lodge could be made up entirely of Spanish speaking people, at which a non-Spanish speaking person may not feel comfortable. Similarly, when a gay man is selecting a lodge to petition for membership, the make-up of that lodge should be considered. It is conceivable that the majority of members of a lodge could have a problem with someone being gay and thus prevent membership from being attained. That is certainly not the case at Daylight Lodge #232.

Because Daylight Lodge has since its inception been involved with the arts, it is a logical assumption that there have been and are gay members, but for the same reason it is not an issue that is even considered important. All that Daylight Lodge asks of a member is that be loyal to the lodge and Masonry. Also that he obey the laws of his city, state and country and there is no law against being gay. Masonry does not discuss religion and that is the source of most of the objections to the gay life style.

So, yes! Gay men can join Masonry and be accepted as a brother, just be conscientious of the lodge you are petitioning. The members of the lodge do vote in secret on petitions for membership and it is possible that a member may cast a negative vote. At Daylight Lodge #232, however, being gay will never prevent you from being accepted and loved like a brother.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

41. thanks

For your reliable info, donheld... I hope you can find the time to answer a question for me: Can Master-Masons still take the Rites of Saint-Martin in certain lodges and is it still considered Authentic Martinism, with an unbroken line? I find the writings of Saint Martin quite beautiful and wish more of them were in English.

[0007]

46. From what I understand, one doesn't petition to be a member.

One has to be ask.

Of course Money and Norieity go a long way in the game of politics, which this is what it's all about.

[ohio_liberal]

48. I don't think so, but I may be wrong

From what I understand, I believe one has to make a request to join and it helps but isn't absolutely necessary to have a Mason sponsor you.

[0007]

52. I was asked twice, like I said before in a previous post on this

thread. And this is what I was told by the sponsor or recruiter or so called friend. :shrug: What do I know?

I declined both time and not because of religious beliefs.

[FreedomAngel82]

59. With the sponser thing

doesn't that make it to where you'd have a better shot to get through if someone else trust's you to be a member than someone else who doesn't have a sponser?

[ohio_liberal]

60. Yes, I believe this is so

I remember there was a bit of a brouhaha when my brother wanted to join and asked a friend to sponsor him instead of one of my family members. He joined a lodge that no one else in the family belonged to. The menfolk were a tad hurt.

[politicat]

43. Not in my mom's lodge.

There are several lesbians in the Eastern Star lodge she is Past Worthy Matron, and at least one gay couple on the Masonic side. BUT she's in a metro area, most of the lodge is pretty liberal, and they're pretty decent people. I'd be a member if I could bring myself to stomach deism.

I'll check with her when I talk to her next time, but I don't think so....

On edit: Try the Prince Hall Masons or find a Mason who is willing to sponsor him. There's nothing in the rules that say it's not allowed, but individual lodges - or Masters - can use "discretion".

[DiverDave]

45. My neighbor is a Shriner

and when he asked if I wanted to join, he told me some of the stuff they do for the possible members.
A delegation visits your home, to see how you live, you go to several meetings and they take a vote to see if the members accept you.
I was told that it is a white bean/black bean sorta deal.
They drop in the white if they accept you, but just 1 black bean, you're out.

I told him that I would gladly help him with all the fund raising and whatever he needed from me.
But, I wouldn't want to go through that bean thing.

He and his wife are the best neighbors that I have ever had, we were very lucky to get them.

[ohio_liberal]

47. Yes, it only takes one member to say no

I'm under the impression that they're either just going to keep 'forgetting' to give him an application or reject him and not tell him why. I feel almost compelled to say something to him (I see him quite frequently) about it but I don't know what I can say without causing hard feelings all around. Maybe it's just none of my business, I don't know. It's a sad situation. :(

I've partied at the Osiris Shrine. Shriners are a fun bunch of people. :toast:

[cantstandbush]

51. From what I understand, it's like the military...

More gays are members than one would guess. But hush! It's a secret.

[Joanne98]

64. leave the masons alone

[ohio_liberal]

66. Huh?

Care to expand on that comment?