I don't trust Bill Clinton anymore

[donsu]

when he screwed the intern and betrayed Hillary I thought he was a punk. but he was running the country quite well and if every man who screwed around on their wives, S.O.s and girlfriends where fired, hardly any men would be at work. however, when Hillary didn't divorce him it was a great disservice to the world of women. and not divorcing him told men she could be bent.

when Bill started hanging out with murderous, criminal poppy bush we all tried to find logical, rational reasons why he would do so, including me. I didn't want to think the worst.

but the Aspen conference, or whatever it was, has been the final straw. in his speeches and talks with the press in Aspen he jumped from one side of the fence to the other, sometimes within the same breath.

I no longer like what he is saying or the company he keeps.

why isn't Bill fighting to save the earth from global warming?
why isn't Bill fighting for us against the neo cons?
He could fight hard! he doesn't. did the intern take his nuts home with her?

I no longer trust Bill Clinton

[redqueen]

1. Centrist Dem = Conservative

Sorry to burst anyone's bubble, but the political landscape has shifted so significantly over the past few decades... we can't deny reality.

[bryant69]

17. What? All of them?

That's a pretty sweeping statement.

[redqueen]

20. Are any removed from the landscape?

No. They cannot be.

Therefore, yes, they all are.

[bryant69]

25. So should we treat Centrist Dems as our enemies?

Or what strategy do your suggest to deal with them?

[redqueen]

30. HELL NO! Vote FOR them! Just not in the primary, if

you have a more liberal option.

I'm not saying don't vote for Centrist Dems, or that they are necessarily our enemies. Only that they are what they are, and that's conservative. So no one should be surprised when they do conservative things or voice support for conservative ideas.

Actually, to be more accurate, I should have said "Centrist Dem = Neo-Liberals". Neo-liberals are nearly as loathsome as neo-conservatives.

[bryant69]

82. I don't know exactly what you mean by Conservative

Or by moderate liberal.

I mean all American politics is much more conservative than in other nations and has been for a long time.

So in that sense I'd agree with you.

But then your last sentance seems to indicate that there is very little difference between Bill Clinton and George W. Bush, and there I would disagree with you.

Bryant

[redqueen]

83. I wouldn't say "very little" difference.

I would say it's enough difference to warrant voting for a conservative DLCer over a repub, very much so... but not enough to stop working hard to support and promote far more progressive candidates.

[bryant69]

89. Hmmmm. We may be coming at this from different angles

There is a theory that says that all the political players more or less genuinely believe what they are fighting for and beleive that it is what would be best for the country. Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld believe that expanding the political power of the presidency to insane levels is good for us. So is invading Iraq, all evidence to the contrary.

President Clinton sincerly believes that his support of NAFTA, and his military adventures (although much smaller than Bush's) were in the best interest of the nation.

And Kucinich (to pick someone more clearly on our side of the fence) believes that curbing our foreign adventures and installing a national health care system is what is best for America.

And so on and so forth. Of course a view can be held sincerely and still be dead wrong. I probably don't have to convince you that pretty much all of what President Bush has fought for and much of what President Clinton fought for was wrong.

Alternative there's the bucket of slime theory in which all politicians save a precious few (who are probably faking it) are rat bastards, largely or totally corrupted by the system, and only do good things by accident. This view, though, tends to be more a Conservative view.

I do agree though that we ought to support proud liberals over Lieberman types - I hope Lamont wins that election.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[natrat]

122. give me a break --our votes are literally worthless--dont get too excited

[redqueen]

127. So you're throwing in the towel, then?

I'm well acquainted with the situation regarding the electronic voting systems, thank you.

Just because I see that the system is nearly hopeless, does not mean that I give up hope... nor do I stop working to try to change things for the better.

[theboss]

140. Well, I guess I should just leave the Party then

And subscribe to National Review.

[redqueen]

141. No... but I'd say you need to think hard about

not just how your beliefs/ideas fit with what the political landscape looks like now as far as Dem/Rep goes... but how they fit with what's being done in this country.

Do you support free trade as it is now, with no protections for labor or the environment?

Do you think US troops should stay in Iraq to 'finish the job'?

Do you think the implementation of a living wage is unrealistic?

Do you think a single-payer insurance program that covers all Americans is unrealistic?

[hippiechick]

2. Bill's always been out for Bill.

Sometimes that benefitted our side, sometimes it doesn't.

I've truly come to believe since about 1995 that he and Hill value power above all else, which is why they've stayed together.


Just my .02

[Psephos]

8. That's my take, too

I'm grateful for the good he's done for us, and upset for the bad.

Bottom line: we have better people than the Clintons to carry our banner and advance our causes.

Peace.

[1932]

Can you quote the speech that offended you?

[donsu]

16. no I can't quote any speech

nt

[1932]

98. so we can ingnore your opinion?

[donsu]

128. if you think my opinion needs some quotes to be real, then go ahead

and ignore. your choice

[1932]

136. I tend not to let others do my thinking for me.

[ariellyn]

150. I'm with you--this sounds like the classic right-wing stance on Clenis

Let them tell it, he can't take a stand, he's "slick".

And the author can't provide a shred of evidence to support this latest assault.

Hmmmmm.

[wtmusic]

3. IMO he is trying to help position Hillary as a moderate

whatever the hell that means. To me, Russ Feingold is a moderate.

[ThomCat]

4. He has always been pro-corporate.

His concern for the environment is all show.
And he has little, if any, concern for poor people.

Sometimes what is good for corporations is also good for the country, and he was sometimes good at finding those instances of overlap. But it would be a mistake to think that he cares about anything other than business.

[deaniac21]

5. Bill is the same Bill he has always been.

[Solo_in_MD]

6. Unfortunately Hillary is making Bill look good

[WI_DEM]

27. Actually Hillary plays by the same book as Bill did

which is the failed policy of triangularization as molded by Dick Morris, to co-op Republican ideas and find common ground. She is no worse than Bill was.

[Cocoa]

7. I'm surprised you ever trusted him

Clinton gave progressives every reason not to trust him. From his primary candidacy all through his presidency and after.

[Ron Green]

9. NO politician can tell the truth and survive.

The truth, of course, is that the "American Way of Life" is totally unsustainable in that it requires inputs from the earth that are being depleted, and it requires enslavement of large numbers of people around the world. Bill has survived better than most, and told the truth probably above average for a pol.

[Freddie Stubbs]

10. Which intern did he 'screw?'

:shrug:

[in_cog_ni_to]

14. none. n/t

[donsu]

18. would you prefer - got sucked by?

nt

[Freddie Stubbs]

29. The phrase certainly is more accurate

"Cheated on his wife with" would have been acceptable.

[Deja Q]

110. And 'shoved a cigar up' too.

:scared:

[in_cog_ni_to]

11. Hillary's life is Hillary's life and NO ONE has the right to say that what

she did by forgiving Bill is wrong. How does her life matter to mine? It doesn't. By her staying married to the man she loves by no means tells men she can be bent. THEY may think that, but it means she stayed married because SHE WANTED TO STAY MARRIED. NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS.

I am NOT a Hillary fan and since Bill now hangs with daddy psycho, I don't trust him either. I think everything he does now is to set up Hillary for her run as prez.

Bill IS spending MOST OF HIS TIME working on AIDS. What's daddy psycho doing? Playing golf in Kennebunkport.:grr:

[LostinVA]

119. THANK YOU for your post n/t

[dysfunctional press]

120. and how does anyone know-

that bill & hil didn't have some type of 'aggreement' about how/where they might choose to have their libido serviced with out the involvement of the other...?

[NNN0LHI]

12. I am still kind of fond of the old dog

At least he knew how to win elections. Can't take that away from him.

Don

[Warpy]

13. You TRUSTED him????

During his 8 years, wealth disparity increased, CEO salaries got out of hand, working people were still making less in constant dollars than they had in 1970, jobs and whole industries continued to be offshored, labor law was not enforced, and access to safe and legal abortion was decimated.

Yeah, you could really trust him if you happened to be a rich Repug who hated women and working people.

Clinton only salvaged his reign by not driving the government into the poorhouse like Stupid is doing.

As for the lack of divorce, get off that high horse. Most women forgive straying husbands. The question is "would my life be better or worse without him?" and most women decide to keep him. They just get tested and then start making sure they take precautions against disease.

We can do better than conservative southern Democrats who pretend they're centrist. We have to do better. Our lives and our country depend on it.

[donsu]

21. good grief! what kind of a marriage is it that the wife has to get tested

for STDs she might get from her husband's screwing around. that's a crazy way to live.

[Warpy]

107. A majority of marriages, actually

since 60% of men admit to cheating.

Oh, 40% of women admit to cheating, too, but husbands are more likely to divorce over it than wives are.

Welcome to the real world.

[raccoon]

133. It certainly is, and a lot of women will do it if he's got enough money,

or in this case influence. If the woman had the money/influence a lot of men would never divorce, either.

[Robbien]

23. Well the first time back in '92 but quickly saw the error of my ways

Back in '92 I did believe the bullshit and voted for him but lost all hope soon after.

[deaniac21]

24. during Clinton's administration, the Democrats lost:

- 48 seats in the House
- 8 seats in the Senate
- 11 governorships
- 1,254 state legislative seats
- Control of 9 legislatures
In addition 439 elected Democrats joined the Republican Party while only three Republican officeholders went the other way.
While Democrats had been losing state legislative seats on the state level for 25 years, the loss during the Clinton years was striking. In 1992, the Democrats controlled 17 more state legislatures than the Republicans. After November 2000, the Republicans controlled one more than the Democrats. It was the first time since 1954 that the GOP had controlled more state legislatures than the Democrats (they tied in 1968). Among other things, this gave the Republican more control over redistricting.
In fact, no Democratic president since the 19th century suffered such an electoral disintegration of his party as did Clinton.

[WI_DEM]

31. those are very striking numbers

and while Clinton did, indeed, win two terms he never got over 50 percent of the vote. I'm happy to see that Democrats are now making progress especially in State Legilative races since Dean's fifty state strategy went into effect.

[deaniac21]

34. Howard Dean is a TRUE Democrat!

[redqueen]

46. THANK YOU, DEMOCRATIC LEADERSHIP COUNCIL (DLC)!

:puke:

[Warpy]

106. Thanks for putting the rest of the story so succinctly

Anybody who considers Clinton a hero is nuts.

[onenote]

108. what does the number of "dem" officeholders becoming repubs prove

They weren't switching from the Democratic side of the aisle to the repub because Bill was such a conservative were they?

[still_one]

15. the more I find out about him the more I realize how he hurt us

pushing and signing the telecommunications act of 1993 finished what reagan had started, monopolies of huge corporate media operations, and no requirement for equal time. The same thing with trade agreements that were NOT fair to us, but bent over backwards for the corporations

On the other hand, he did leave the current administration with tremendous opportunities which they ignored. They could have continued the negotiations with the Israellis and Palestinians, they could have continued the negotiations with North Korea, THEY COULD HAVE HEEDED THE HART/RUDMAN report commissioned by Clinton which warned us of 9/11, plus quite a few other issues. Unfortunately, they ignored everything, and we are screwed

[0007]

77. ....ain't that the truth?

[Deja Q]

111. Telecom act '96, NAFTA, DMCA, 55mph speed limit, Jocelyn Elders, DOMA,

and those are just off the top of my head.

The budget balancing seemed genuine, as had the foreign diplomacy.

And maybe he merely helped out corporate America, thinking they'd play fair.

I don't know.

But Clinton surely could have reversed some of those (and then get called a flip-flopper)?

[Taverner]

19. I trust Bill Clinton to be Bill Clinton

He's on our side - but he is out for #1. This goes for 99% of the politicians out there, Clinton is just honest about it.

He does have a heart however - like any politician, he has a number of pet projects that he will back, and sacrifice anything to get going. During his presidency it was the economy. After the presidency it was Katrina and AIDS.

You really can't fault a politician for being what they are - you just have to find the ones that happen to make your pet projects their pet projects.

[donsu]

22. what did he do for Katrina victims? New Orleans is a wreck and it's

citizens still scattered and broken.

he talks a good AIDs game but where are the results?

[Taverner]

28. He raised $$$

He did it with Poppy Bush. Granted I don't like the company he keeps anymore than you do, but they accomplished their task - raise $$$ and awareness for Katrina.

[buff2]

49. Katrina victims have AIDS?

Gawly Gee.......I didn't know that! Psst! (I'll let you in on a little secret. GEORGE W BUSH is president now......NOT Bill Clinton!) Why are you NOT blaming HIM?????

[Ohio Joe]

26. I don't agree with everything he has done...

Either Today or in the past but I don't think anything productive can come out of trashing him. President Clinton is no longer running this country and I would suggest focusing on those that are.

[donsu]

33. he is still an active politician

nt

[Ohio Joe]

52. ummm... so?

I still do not see any point in exercises like this. Spending our time demonizing our own when those in power right now truly deserve demonizing. It just really disappoints me.

[donsu]

132. you have a strange idea of what demonizing is

I've never demonized anyone.

whatever demonizing means

[calico1]

32. I am sorry but in regards to your first statement

its none of my damn business or yours or anyone else's how Hillary should or shouldn't have reacted to Clinton's indiscretions. I can't believe people can think they have a right to demand that a Frist Lady divorce the President. Its their marriage and their business. Or do we agree with the Republicans on invading people's private lives now?

[sinkingfeeling]

36. I've met Bill and I'd trust him to house sit or pet sit my dogs. Would I

trust him to make political decisions on all topics 100% of the time? Doubtful, but I'm certainly willing to listen to his arguments pro and con and making up my own mind on each issue.

[donsu]

42. I did not demand anything of Hillary - I commented on her actions

after the betrayal

[ecoalex]

35. Clinton started the DLC an unholy alliance with corporations, selling out

Why should anyone be surprised? The DLC now even Boxer cows to the corpratists.Any DLC'r is a two faced scoundrel who turns their back on our Democracy and rights, one look shows this well.

[LittleClarkie]

37. You mean like this

Just sayin'

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2382329

[partylessinOhio]

38. I trust Bill Clinton without any doubt. There is NO comparison between

Bill Clinton and the trash you have in the WH now. None!

We had hope, we had peace, we had prosperity, we had a surplus, we had prestige in the world and we could afford to live.

What the hell else could you want?

[buff2]

39. This is the most disgusting thread I've read

Thanks for making the FReeptards day. They put their heart and soul into trashing the Clintons on a daily basis......along with Lush Limpballs,Sean insanity,Bill O' LIElly,and don't forget all the rest of the rightwing nutjob pundits. This has got to make their day. :puke:

[CatWoman]

41. Agreed, Buff2

:nuke:

this is bull shit.

[buff2]

43. Hi Cat!

I am sick to my stomach after reading this shit. It makes me wonder who is REAL in this group? This thread is tacky.......and will make the FReeptards happy,that's for sure.They LOVE to hate the Clintons. :puke:

[SammyWinstonJack]

117. This thread is TACKY, especially the part about Hillary not divorcing

Bill, which sends a message to men that she can be "bent". :wtf:

[LostinVA]

123. Nasty phrase, I agree n/t

[donsu]

129. she can be manipulated "bent"

nt

[LynneSin]

50. Me three on the agreeing

Clinton was a flawed man but I'll still take him as president again!

[buff2]

61. I had to check and make sure I wasn't over at Freeptardland

This is amazing. I was living good when Bill Clinton was President. Now,it's a whole different lifestyle.......FOR THE WORSE. I enjoyed living when he was President. Now I'm just existing. But these phony "dems" in here likes living under the bush dictatorship better. What a phucked up country this has turned into.

[LynneSin]

68. We tend to have the attention span of an ADHD gnat on 10 cups of coffee

:shrug:

[hfojvt]

109. I have been living better under Bush

but probably I am an exception. I worked a no benefits jobs and ran a losing business most of the 1990s, and then as a temp while the Democratic Governor Vilsack worried about a "future labor shortage".

Anyway there was no implied praise of Bush in the OP. Point is that Clinton is apparently doing very little to oppose Bush. Clinton is the one who talks like a "phony dem" always has IMO, but I would gladly support Hillary over Guiliani if she beats Edwards or Dean in the primaries as seems likely.

[Sanity Claws]

47. I agree with you, too

I couldn't believe any of this shit in this thread. To some extent, I don't trust any politician. But to have someone like **** in power, someone who NEVER tells the truth, who's stupid and evil, and then to rage about Clinton, under whom we had 8 years of peace and prosperity, that it utterly crazy.
The person who started this thread and the ones who joined in should concentrate on who the real enemies are.

[donsu]

54. can you tell me why he hangs out with murderous, criminal poppy?

nt

[Sanity Claws]

70. Keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer

[donsu]

79. that thought has been discussed and to my mind doesn't fly anymore

nt

[Sanity Claws]

88. You're very closed-minded

You also seem full of hate.
There are some politicians who are truly worthy of hate and everything else you can throw at them. Clinton isn't one of them. * and his cohorts are.

[donsu]

130. I didn't throw hate - I said I didn't trust him anymore

nt

[redqueen]

84. Who cares what they think? Why does that matter?

What matters is ridding our party of corporatists.

Please stop basing your thoughts and actions on the reaction those might get from the right. It is not effective at all.

[LostinVA]

121. Agreed -- some disgusting comments about HRC, imo

Very sexist and nasty.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

40. He's a politician acting like a politician.

All things to all people. Never met a fence he couldn't straddle.

I "trust" politicians to behave like polticians.

[buff2]

44. Bullshit

I went to Hope Ark. and talked to many people while I was there. They ALL told me what a caring young boy he was and how he grew up to always think of other people.That is how he was RAISED,and NOT ONE PERSON said anything bad about him. He was very loved there,and to read people's posts in here who are SUPPOSED to be Democrats.... trashing him and his wife makes me very angry,sad and sickened by it. No wonder we get trashed by repukes......you people give them all the amunition they need. :thumbsdown:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

51. How sweet.

I'll stick to my assessment.

[buff2]

53. You can stick that assessment where the sun doesn't shine

IMHO!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

55. And you can stick most polticians in a similar location.

Including, that sweet little boy who everybody liked.

[buff2]

57. I guess you like Bush better huh?

I haven't seen you trash bush this way. Your cover has been blown. Ha ha.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

59. Then you haven't been paying attention.

Last I checked, Bush is also a politician. But, your slavish devotion to the "Big Dawg" is touching.

[buff2]

71. You are a MALE!

:rofl: NO WONDER you hate Bill! I thought I was talking to a female until I checked your profile. LOL Now I understand your jealousy. :rofl: Thanks for the laughs. :hi:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

78. Your way with words is most comforting.

I was beginning to think that most adolescents were difficult to amuse. You have proven me wrong.

Not to mention your alacrity at coming to conclusions with absolutely no foundation.

[ecoalex]

45. It's about truth , F automatic allegiance

You have to walk the walk to get my vote.F the repugs and write like I did Boxer to tell her what I thought. The Democratic Senators owe us not the other way around. We need a populist not corpratists. The polls are on the progressives side, to disenfranchise the public is a big mistake. Write your Dem representative and tell them to work for you, not the corporations.

[redqueen]

85. So Kucinich isn't a politician?

Or do you assign those same characteristics to him, as well?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

95. Indeed he is.

And, as a politician, I confer the same "trust" on him as I do any other politician. It just happens that I agree with most, not all, of what he says he stands for.

With the Clinton's, on the other hand, I disagree with many things that they say they stand for - i.e. the "war" in Iraq.

How do you evaluate politicians and your "trust" in them? Having a (D) after their names is a pretty thin way of making an evaluation. i.e. Joe Lieberman, George Wallace, LBJ, Strom Thurmond, etc.

[redqueen]

97. Their records.

I guess I'm just not as ready as you seem to be to assign them all to automatic slimeball status.

I don't necessarily trust any of them, but I sure as hell trust those with D's more than those with R's, a priori.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

99. Then we are in agreement.

I "trust" Democratic politicians to act like Democratic politicians. Some of whom I agree with, some of the time.

I "trust" Republican politicians to act like Republican politicians. Most of whom I disagree with, most of the time.

All I'm saying is that I don't "trust" politicians, as a group, to do much of anything but act as politicians. As someone said, "The art of politics is compromise". Which is all too true. And, probably a good thing...unless you are on the losing end of the "compromise".

I feel no compulsion to overlook the failures, compromises, incompetence, dishonesty, self-aggrandizement, or downright criminality, of any politician, of any party, simply because I may agree with him on some issues. Or, even if their virtues outweigh their faults.

"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever, in religion, in philosophy, in politics or in anything else, where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent. If I could not go to Heaven but with a party, I would not go there at all." - Thomas Jefferson

[redqueen]

101. A very reasonable stance...

since, as you said, politics is necessarily the art of compromise. And in most of history, given money's status, a dirty, dirty business, to boot. Sad, but true. And it's just about impossible for one to work in such a dirty, dirty job without getting a little muck on themselves.

Which is yet another reason why I admire Kucinich so very much.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

103. As do I.

He has taken stances that put his seat at risk for, apparantly, no other reason than doing what is right. A rare, very rare, instance of integrity.

I can readily put up with a "little muck". I wouldn't, for instance, feel compelled to upbraid Dennis if he voted to name a bridge after Reagan. But, if he were to surrender to "popular opinion" and vote to legalize torture, I would be yelling my head off - even if he is "not as bad" as the Republican. A standard the Clintons use to their adavantage.

[FreeStateDemocrat]

48. Charismatic does not equal trustworthy, basically selfish and now elitist

Does not represent the interests or values of the working class, the base that the Democratic Party needs to regain power. Another of Hillary's disconnects with being an electable candidate.

[buff2]

69. Democrats=elitists

Yep.......that's one of the republican talking points. GOTCHA!

[Catherine Vincent]

56. Bill Clinton is doing what he does best.

And that is to be himself. That is why he is a likeable guy by everyone. Put aside his politics, all in all, everyone wouldn't mind attending a gathering or keeping company with big Bill. Clinton did what he was supposed to do while he was president. He's semi-retired now. Being partisan in his position will only make his health worse, imo.

[Ilsa]

58. "He's the best Republican president we've ever had," per Mike

Malloy. MM has said this hundreds of times.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

60. Not true. Lincoln was the best Repbulican presdent. Bill's not close.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[buff2]

65. I would still choose him over the idiot anyday.

People who trash Clinton as President wasn't really leftwing at all. It's BUSH that should be bashed and trashed.But it's hard to trash those that you really support. That's why I can't trash Clinton. And that's why they can't trash bush. Simple as that.

[paulk]

63. why don't you post this garbage over at Free Republic?

where it belongs.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[redqueen]

86. Actually, it is REPUBLICANS who insist their members march in lockstep.

Or did you not realize that?

[LWolf]

116. Who would that be?

Anyone who criticizes Bill Clinton is a Freeper? I was criticizing him during his first presidential campaign; I'd never heard of "Free Republic." I'm one of those DUers who doesn't spend time hanging out "over there" to see what they say or think; I wouldn't even know there was such a thing as a "freeper" if they weren't talked about so regularly on DU.

I am not a Clinton fan or supporter. What cover has that blown? I've been clearly not a DLC Dem for all the years I've been posting here.

[Biernuts]

64. I'm not saying I really trust him - but hanging around and getting

the throw-offs that don't make his cut ain't that bad

[doodadem]

66. God I miss the Clinton Years!

Sorry, but Clinton was vera vera good to me. I am a self-employed business owner, and went gangbusters those 8 years. The minute Bush came in, I went in the toilet, and have been struggling to come back to a decent level since. Did you know Bush had the beginning date of the recession changed by the National Bureau of Economic Research, to push it back into Clinton's term? (see
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_08/b3871044.htm).

Clinton did a tremendous amount to preserve public lands, and Bush has been trying to roll it all back ever since--such as decimating the Roadless rules in the National Parks here.

Every time I see or hear Big Bill being interviewed about AIDS causes, Katrina, etc., he is passionate, intelligent, and so articulate it makes you cry to compare it to the current buffoon representing us to the world. The Clinton Admin left us with a large budget surplus, looking good on the diplomatic front around the world, on and on. I think if Bill is hanging out with Bush Sr., it is only to use him for Bill's causes. Doesn't mean they have the same philosophies.

[Mad_Dem_X]

72. Me too - I guess we're the only ones!?

Suddenly it's Bash Clinton Day; am I still on DU, or did I stumble into FR? :shrug: :crazy:

[buff2]

73. Like I said........it brought all the freepers out

Their cover is blown. One thing freepers LIVE for and that is to bash and trash the Clintons. It's what they do best.

[wicket]

75. It's as predictable as it is pathetic

n/t

[SaveElmer]

96. I'm with ya...

I find this latent Clinton bashing disgusting!

Who needs Freeperville...you wanna see some good old Clinton bashing come to DU!!!

[Bridget Burke]

74. Trust in God, not in politicians....

If you're agnostic/atheist like me, you're out of luck.

Clinton was far better than the Bush who preceded him & the Bush who succeeded him.

Your screed loses credibility because you began & ended it with Monica.

[buff2]

76. That's because it's the republican mantra

I could NEVER be a moderator in here. Phony DU-ers would be zapped so quick it would look like a David Copperfield show.

[Cameron27]

80. It is painful to read through this thread..

Taking time to bash Clinton when this country's very democracy is under fire from a fascist administration.

Hell, I'll take 100 Clintons.

[buff2]

81. I think half of Freeptard land is in here

I think President Clinton was the BEST PRESIDENT THIS COUNTRY HAS EVER HAD!


Chew on that,Freepers!

[redqueen]

87. That is asinine. He got NAFTA passed, over the objections of DEMS

I could go on, but some refuse to see what they don't want to, so I won't bother. (However, if you do care, just look here for a few more examples: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1608972&mesg_id=1609211)

It disgusts me how some people around here act as if anyone who disagrees with them is a freeper.

[Cameron27]

90. Perhaps the loss of democratic seats..

was the end result of a protracted sideshow "investigation" by ken starr. How much was the smear factor involved in that "investigation" used as a platform for every damned republican running for any seat in this government. I am aware of Clinton's faults, but Bill Clinton is not running for office. If this is a debate on Hillary, then state it as such and we can have an honest discussion.

What is the point of this whole thread.

[redqueen]

91. What's the point of most of the threads in this forum.

:shrug:

If you're sincerely asking my opinion, it's that one more person finally noticed that DLC types really are, in a nutshell, conservatives. No more, no less.

Small wonder so many are so furious that anyone might dare to make such an observation. For they clearly did not observe the one most holy rule that all we democrats hold sacred, that thou shalt not have any other ideas outside the *mainstream* party's, let alone speak up about them.


and re: loss of seats... we can 'perhaps' till the sun goes down... but at the end of the day: NAFTA, China in WTO, no Fairness Doctrine legislation (as promised), and environmentalists were strung along and treated like red-headed step-children (until the final months of his 8th year, that is). So, yeah. You do the math.

[Cameron27]

92. Yes I was sincerely asking..

Thank you, and I agree with you that all democrats should not be held as sacred. I have problems with many who are undertaking a run at the presidency...Biden, Lieberman, Hillary & others. But I will vote for them over a republican.

That said, I guess we will just have to disagree about Bill Clinton.

[redqueen]

94. As much as I didn't appreciate Bill... I'd vote for him in a heartbeat

One look at the other side should be all anyone needs to see in order to get in line and vote STRAIGHT TICKET!

If there's ever been a time for straight-ticket voting, it is now.

[Hubert Flottz]

93. Bill wants to be one of the slave owners in the Poppy's...

New World Order!

Clinton has been a globalist from day one! He's all for the "one world government," just like the neocons are!

[B Calm]

100. We have a monkey running this country and you're bitching about

President Clinton???????????

[B Calm]

102. President Clinton’s Legacy: A brave man that wouldn’t

President Clinton’s Legacy: A brave man that wouldn’t resign, but instead stood up and stared into the face of vindictive, corrupt, hypocritical, political right-wing smear mongers who tried and failed to undermine democracy.

[G_j]

135. yea letting Leonard Peltier rot in prison

while pardoning complete greed soaked, sleeze..
real brave!

[CrispyQ]

104. When I think of Clinton,

I remember chapter 10 of Stupid White Men, "Democrats, DOA." Moore goes on for about 2 pages listing policies that are anything but liberal. He finishes his tirade with "Yes, Bill Clinton is one of the most popular Republican presidents of all time."

Bill & Hill are into power & protecting the status quo that got them theirs.

[Freddie Stubbs]

112. If Bill Clinton was a 'Republican' president, why did Republicans

in Congress spend so much time and energy trying to destroy him?

[FUGW]

114. Because they are Authoritarians and he did not fit the Daddy figure

they so disparately need.

[AlwaysQuestion]

105. Valid points

I think you make some valid points as do many others who've responded to your post. I think that it is exceedingly healthy to judge politicians by their deeds rather than the banner or flag they fly under. I've always considered a progressive as one who's looking to support a politician who acts in the best interest of the great unwashed majority. I think it is pure folly to continue to support a politician who puts his own interests before those of his constituents. Thus, I'm hard put to find anyone who I can support all of the time--or for that matter, even most of the time. While I find Bush totally reprehensible, I find Clinton far too flawed for his high degree of intelligence. And while there are few who will deny his likability, such a positive trait does not in and of itself make for a good leader.

But, hey, we're not doing much better up here but since we have minuscule if any world power, the damage we wreak on the world is pretty much confined to the environment (which is powerfully damaging enough). Nevertheless, the sheeple of our nation continue to follow and support leaders simply on the basis of what party they represent and not on the basis of their actions. Witless. And our results show it.

While I've tried to be upbeat most of my life, over these past several decades I have seen things deteriorate quite rapidly. Technology has advanced beyond anyone's wildest dreams and the desire to achieve/produce/attain "everything instantaneously" is historically unparalleled. How everything is going down these days from our badly managed environment to our unprovoked wars is bringing about results that we humans are not prepared to successfully contend with. Our leaders have made and are still making hastily, ill conceived decisions which puts us at the brink of destruction. If we're not done in by nuclear war (who will be the first nut to unleash it? And it is no longer just between the U.S. and Russia (USSR)), then the environment will get us.

In any event, we're in trouble. Serious trouble. No, irreversible trouble. And Bush, IMO, is the poster boy for the end. But, Clinton having been an enabler can claim his share of demerits. After that, we can line up any number of leaders worldwide to whom we can attach grave blame. But what will it matter?


Would you believe that I'm not on anyone's party list anymore.

[Easy]

144. Wise words indeed

I hope that some time people will see that in politics a personality cult is a very, very dangerous game. Apart from that, I often see politicians judged on their perceived ability to "win against the others", like it's some kind of sports game... "He is great, he can win against the republicans". While that may seem pragmatic at first glance, it really is not. It shifts the focus from what is really important (the actual goals and deeds of the politician, his/her honesty, ambition, vision, regard for the people, desire to really do good and change things for the better... just as a few examples) to a view of "us against them", where almost everyone who is "us" is inherently good, and everyone who is "them" - or sometimes just "not us" is inherently bad. This is even more common on the far right, where demonizing political opponents is considered normal, and the own leaders are considered impeccable.

Politicians should never be granted leeway for their party affiliation. Mostly they aren't (Lieberman comes to mind), and that's a good thing. But even pop stars like Clinton should not be cut any slack. Always, always judge them by their deeds, and never idolize in politics.

At least, that's my conviction ;) I'm german, and still kinda burnt by Schröder's reign.

[elaineb]

149. Very well said

Especially the part about shifting the focus from what is really important to a view of "us against them". There's a lot of that on DU these days, although I agree that it's a tendency that seems much more common on the right.

Dennis Kucinich is my favorite congressperson and I agree with all of his stances on major policy issues, but many DUer's seem to think he's "unelectable" and are fond of saying so. As I see it, they are either getting this idea from their OWN feelings toward him and extrapolating it to others, they are believing the assessment fed to them by the mainstream media, or they are pulling it out of thin air, because they don't agree with his policy positions and support a more centrist candidate.

That being said, although I admire and support Kucinich more than any politician I can remember, I won't feel the same way if he changes his positions on issues that are very important to me. That, as you rightly say, would be participating in a personality cult. There's too much of that in US politics on both ends of the political spectrum, and it's not helping get the best people elected.

[Suziq]

113. Seems Like this Thread . . . .

is a result of a major Repuke talking point - everything is Clinton's fault!

Looks like some folks here are swallowing this point big time.

As stated in a previous response above, we have a chimp running this country and you guys are trashing Clinton?????? :eyes:

I would vote for Clinton again in a heartbeat.

[LostinVA]

125. Bingo n/t

[datasuspect]

115. BILL KLINTOON IS SATIN!

SERIESLY!!!!!11111

[dysfunctional press]

118. what makes you think he "betrayed" hillary?

or that he "screwed" an intern??

are you completely positive that bill and hillary don't/didn't have any type of 'agreement' as to how each might choose to service their respective libidos? lots of couples do, you know.

[ContraBass Black]

124. What did he say?

[rman]

126. I agree with your point re Bill Clinton's politics,

but i fail to see how Hillary's actions regarding the Clinton's marriage have any bearing on Bill's politics.
It seems to me the latter has nothing to do with your main point (your distrusting Bill Clinton the politician).

[donsu]

131. I didn't say it did. I said she did a disservice to the world of women

by not divorcing him. my opinion of her actions after the fact. I can't agree with being a co-dependent to a husband's cheating.

[Greyhound]

137. I am glad that he's finally gone far enough for you to see what he is,

and always has been. The consummate politiwhore, he managed to fool most of the base into thinking he was working for them, while upon reviewing his actions after the fact, we find he did little to nothing for the common citizen. The displaced factory workers received <40% of the training assistance they were promised, union membership continued to decline, he supported GATT, sang the praises of the WTO and IMF, and brought us NAFTA. Let's not forget those other pro-worker victories, H-1b/L-1 visa program, Welfare reform, Telecommunications Act, etc.

Edit: Almost forgot China's MFN status, year after year, murder after murder, hurting the very people he purported to represent so that IBM, Nike, McDonald's, etc. could make even more $$$.

This is not to suggest in any way that he was not vastly superior to the alternatives we had, but I find the hero worship and pining for the "good old days that never were" pretty irritating.

[rman]

138. I first saw what Bill Clinton is several years ago

Some people say Clinton now regrets supporting NAFTA, but i don't remember him making any such statement in public.

[Greyhound]

143. No he didn't, he was it's biggest cheerleader and his veep

Gore, cast the deciding vote in the Senate to pass it. I'm not certain, but I seem to recall reading that the vote was cast at Clinton's direction.

[rman]

146. Maybe the time is right for Gore to say something about NAFTA,

and about so-called free trade in general...

[Greyhound]

147. You mean like, "what the hell was I thinking"?

All of these schemes, without exception, are just cover for the gangster/thugs to continue the world-wide campaign of pillage and terror they have waged against the people for over a century.

If he were to say something meaningful (not some CYA bull like, "it is a good idea poorly executed") about it, I would reconsider my position on any campaign he might engage in.
I'm not holding my breath. :hangover:

[rman]

151. Not holding my breath, but Gore does seem to be following

an unconventional path.

[raccoon]

134. Has anyone yet mentioned he signed the "welfare reform" bill? nt

[Andromeda]

139. You're wrong.

Bill Clinton is nothing like you have described and Hillary did what she thought was right. Nobody has the right to judge how a couple deals with challenges to their relationship. I believe Hillary loves Bill and whatever kind of "arrangement" they worked out is their business.

How do you know what Bill Clinton is fighting for or against? The current resident of the White House is the one you should be railing against. Global warming is being ignored by this administration so why aren't you attacking them?

Poppy Bush is no longer president either. Ex-presidents have more time on their hands to dedicate to their charities and the relationship between Bill and Poppy was born out of their mutual interest in raising money for AIDS and other causes. They worked together to raise money for the victims of the tsunami in Sumatra and also after Katrina. Maybe they found some personal traits in each other they found admirable. A lot of Democrats have Republican friends and vice versa.

Bill Clinton was never vehemently partisan. He always wanted to be seen as somebody who would reach across the isle to Republicans and work out compromises. Moderates understood that but he was and still is vulnerable to criticism and attacks from the far left and far right for his refusal to draw strict partisan lines. He always did what he thought was best for the Democratic party and sometimes he was wrong and I have heard him admit it. He said that NAFTA needed to be revised because there weren't enough protections for American workers.

I never believed Bill Clinton was perfect but he was sure a lot better than any Republican president we've ever had. We never had a surplus under a Republican administration and we did under Clinton.

[donsu]

142. you need to bone up on poppy's crimes and his CIA connections

still to today

[obnoxiousdrunk]

145. Nominated for ....

WPD- Worst Post of the Day.

[mnhtnbb]

148. No longer? What took you so long?

At the time Bill Clinton was caught lying to the country, to his wife, to his Cabinet Officers (and Vice President)and anyone else who inquired, I said he should resign.

I haven't trusted him since and still believe that if he'd done the honorable thing by resigning, Al Gore would have been campaigning in 2000 as President Al Gore and the last 6 year nightmare of Bush would never have happened.