New York, 9/ll; Madrid, 3/11; Mumbai, 7/ll

[sabra]

http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2006/07/new_york_9ll_ma.html

New York, 9/ll; Madrid, 3/11; Mumbai, 7/ll

The date of the attack, the 11th, may be only a coincidence, but it won't be ignored as investigators try to figure out who was behind today's deadly commuter train attacks in India.

The 11th has now been chosen as an attack date in New York, Madrid and Mumbai.

"There's a lot of symbolism involved when terrorists choose their targets and the dates of their attacks," said Jack Cloonan, a former FBI agent on the bin Laden squad who now works as an ABC News consultant.

"Who knows?" said Cloonan.

Last year's attacks in London was on 7/7.

No group has claimed responsibility for today's attacks, but FBI counter-terrorism officials say it is clearer than ever that the relatively unguarded big city mass transit systems have now become the primary target for terrorists across the world.

[Fierce]

1. Hey, guys? Let's not worry about the dates.

Let's worry about WHY THEY DO IT, and then work on that, m'kay?

ETA: "Guys" as in "world leaders who seem to be clueless as to why these things happen," not the OP or other DUers.

[Posteritatis]

22. Picking apart the dates has its upside

Enough people are convinced that these guys are cartoon supervillains, with limitless reach and capacity for whatever it is they want to do. If all the plans are falling into some mysterious, inscrutable pattern, that just heightens the image of their power; makes them a more menacing and plausible enemy.

Knock a few legs out from under this supposed pattern (like what's going on in this thread), and suddenly "the enemy" are human beings again, and capable of being dealt with like most other scattered and overstated threats can be. After awhile, it's a matter for law enforcement, not the army.

[bigdarryl]

2. Bombing dates

Coincidence my ASS!!

[Posteritatis]

3. London 7/7, Bali 10/12...

But wait! Those don't count! They don't fit the imaginary pattern!

Sometimes a day is just a day.

I'm sure that won't stop the numerologists from trying to manufacture some kind of new significance in this.

[KurtNYC]

7. 2/26/1993 - the first WTC attack

10/12/2000 - the attack on the USS Cole.

Don't count either apparently

[Posteritatis]

19. Embassy bombings, 8/7/1998 and 9/9/2004, etc..

The whole story's a classic ignoring-the-counterevidence fallacy. Ho hum.

[The Straight Story]

9. Actually, both those do fit in a way

7/11/12 are all of importance in scriptures

11 - http://www.oricom.ca/sdesr/nu11.htm for more on that number.

7 and 12 are well known religious numbers.

So the month dates 7/9/10 et al don't seem to have a pattern, but the day does (of course the month might as well, no idea on that).

Now if something happens in august, like the 7th, we would have months: 7/8/9/10...unless they want to go backwards :) (and I am probably missing some numbers from other attacks).

At any rate, some things crazy people do don't always make sense ;)

[Virginia Dare]

4. Insightful comment ....

from the no-doubt highly paid ABC consultant on terrorism: "who knows?". Hell, I could have come up with that one.

:eyes:

[Posteritatis]

5. Better to honestly claim that than falsely claim otherwise.. (n/t)

[JABBS]

8. they have to fill air time

... and they can't simply say they don't know anything, so they "cover their bases" with crap like this.

[Monkey see Monkey Do]

6. The Bali nighclub bombing was on 10/12/02 - adding one to

the date, month & year of 09/11/01 and my Dad was convinved throguhout 2003 there would be an attack on 11/13/03.

[iwanmycntrybak]

10. I thought there were no more terror attacks

on Bush's watch??

[Straight Shooter]

11. There haven't been attacks on people who really matter (Americans).

:sarcasm:

[jobycom]

12. I'm not sold on this "symbolism" argument

We keep hearing how Muslim terrorists like to choose symbolic dates, but I haven't seen evidence of this. Three attacks out of many occur on the 11th day of random months? If there is a reason for 11, let someone come up with it.

If I were planning attacks to shake the world, I would worry more about opportunity than symbolism. When could the attacks hurt worst? When could I collect all the resources? Are their security holes that make a certain time better than others?

There may be a link on the dates, but it seems to me that someone would see it if there were. A symbol that no one gets isn't much of a symbol.

And btw, would an Islamic fundamentalist worry about the significance of dates on the CHRISTIAN calendar. I know the Muslim world uses the Gregorian calendar for business and daily life, but if these attacks are all so religiously inspired, why wouldn't they follow their religious calendar?

[RaleighNCDUer]

13. said Jack Cloonan, a former FBI agent on the bin Laden squad

Ya think that maybe if they weren't looking for mythical patterns, they might have caught the guy by now?

If you are a terrorist the one thing you avoid is predictable patterns and symbolic dates - they can lead to getting caught, and stopping the attack. They no doubt got this notion of 'symbolism' from a terrorist. Misdirection. Basic principle of warfare.

[CJCRANE]

14. It's like a brand -

Bush has got 9/11, Blair's got 7/7 etc etc.

Also note that British dates are the other way round, so 3/11, 7/11 and 9/11 only work as American dates. Probably why the London bombers picked 7/7 otherwise it would've had different names in Britain and America.

on edit: although 11/3, 11/7 and 11/9 would still show a pattern, but they don't sound quite as snappy as the American versions.

[malaise]

15. So why did Kissenger et al

kill Allende and bomb Chile on 9/11

[rman]

17. Salvador Allende (July 26, 1908 – September 11, 1973)

Salvador Isabelino del Sagrado Corazón de Jesús Allende Gossens (July 26, 1908 – September 11, 1973) was President of Chile from September 1970 until his removal from power and death in September 1973.
...
As President, Allende is generally considered to have imposed a controversial populist and socialist agenda.
...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvador_Allende

[malaise]

24. I'll never forget that week. Never. n/t

[gatorboy]

16. In Iraq, everyday is bomb day. n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

18. Holy shit! It's prime numbers! It must be extraterrestrials!

Think about it:

1 is prime, 3 is prime, 7 is prime, 9 is a statistical anomaly, 11 is prime...

[Posteritatis]

20. Just wait, a big one's planned for 17/41/2011... (n/t)

[CJCRANE]

21. You have to admit though

that whoever carried this series of attacks have picked dates that are memorable and follow a pattern (starting with 9/11 was the first time a date became inextricably linked with a terrorist attack). If these guys are gonna take the time to hit four buildings with airliners or four trains with bombs then it's not that much more effort to pick a memorable date too. Maybe it's bin Laden sitting in his cave in Pakistan, who knows...

[Posteritatis]

23. If 9/11 happened on 3/26, that'd be "memorable" too. (n/t)

[CJCRANE]

25. Can you see Bush and the neocons saying 3/26 in every speech

just like they do with 9/11. It's like a brand. Bush even had a 9/11 Stars and Stripes as a backdrop at his Fort Bragg speech last year.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

27. Yeah, I can.

There's was nothing significant about "nine eleven" until "nine eleven."

[CJCRANE]

29. Ok maybe they would've

said "everything changed on Black Tuesday". I still think they've turned 9/11 into a brand though.

[Posteritatis]

30. Of course I can, or any other abbreviated date. (n/t)

[dysfunctional press]

34. i wish that it had happened on April 20th...

hearing them constantly refer to "4-20" would be too cool. :hippie:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

26. Bullshit I have to.

For all we know 9-11 was a random date and the decided on 3/11 & 7/11 after that because so many people attached a weird numerical significance to "9-11."

[CJCRANE]

28. I can go with that -

I never said there was never any mystical significance to the dates, just that it started with 9/11 and followed a pattern.

[RaleighNCDUer]

31. Then what is the memorable significance of the day in November

when it was originally scheduled for -- according to some reports, the date was moved up two months either for logistical reasons, or because they were ready to go early.

If it had happened in November, would the FAA be conducting anti-terror drills that day, too? (Oops, tin-foil alert!).

One of the most basic premises of warfare is to strike unexpectedly -- that means, no significant dates, no predictable patterns. Only an idiot would believe the government's nonsense about this -- it's just trying to reassure the public that they are on top of things.

And they never are.

[CJCRANE]

39. 9/11 is 9th November in the rest of the world

so the number 11 would stil be there. I' m not into numerology that's not my bag, nor do I know why terrorists do things but they don't work in logical ways. Terrorism and warfare aren't exactly the same - with terrorism there is always a symbolic aspect, the act of violence is usually intended to send a message (above and beyond the actual military achievement - which is usually none because they attack civilians).

So, I don't understand terrorists but I do understand governents and how they often like to exploit the effects of terrorism for their own gain.
And without any meaningful investigations into 9/11 and 7/7 there is no way of knowing what really happened (although I suspect the famous "redacted 28 pages" of the 9/11 Commission Report would be quite an eye-opener).

[ProfessorGAC]

32. Well, That's Simple Mathematics

It's a fact that there are more prime numbers in the first 20 whole numbers than in any other set of 20 values in the infinite number set. So, the odds of having a prime number when we only have 12 months, 31 days (or 30) are high. Besides, the year 2001 (as in 9/11/2001) wasn't a prime number. Is that another statistical anomaly? Don't think so!
The Professor

[ProfessorGAC]

33. Dupe

.

[bjoe]

35. FBI was a pricipal architect of 911

please diseminate to widest possible audience


a species that hires bodyguards to protect it looses the ability to protect itself and is doomed to extinction

CRIMES COMMITTED BY THE F.B.I.

SUGGESTED READING LIST



Bari, Judi. TIMBER WARS. Monroe, Maine: Common Courage Press, 1994.
The F.B.I. attempted to stop the political activity of Judi Bari and Daryl Cherney by exploding a
bomb under their car. Daryl Cherney and Judi Bari filed a Civil lawsuit against the FBI and Oakland police. A jury awarded them $4.4 million dollars in 2003. see www.judibari.org

Bowen Roger. INNOCENCE IS NOT ENOUGH: The Life and Death of Herbert Norman
New York USA M.E. Sharpe Inc 1988
Looks at FBI murder of Herbert Norman, Canadian Ambassador to Egypt.

Buitrago, Ann Mari. F.B.I. FILES. Grove Press, 1981.
Covers the procedures for obtaining and interpreting your F.B.I. file.

Burnham, David. ABOVE THE LAW. Scribner, 1996.
Looks at secret deals and fixing of cases by the Justice Department.

Buttino, Frank. A SPECIAL AGENT. William Morrow, 1993.
Investigates F.B.I. attacks on gay agents during the 1980’s.

Carson, Clayborne. MALCOLM X: THE F.B.I. FILE. Carroll & Graf, 1991.
Looks at the role of the F.B.I. in the assassination of Malcolm X.

Cashill,Jack, Sanders,James. FIRST STRIKE Thomas Nelson Press, 2003
Overwhelming evidence presented by Dr. Cashill on the downing of TWA Flight 800
by a missle over Long Island and the ensuing cover-up by FBI agents.

Charns, Alexander. CLOAK AND GAVEL. University of Illinois Press. 1992.
After reviewing thousands of pages of FBI documents the attorney author
exposes the FBI illegal phone tapping of the Supreme Court and how the FBI fix court
cases and manipulate Congress and State legislatures.

Churchill, Ward. AGENTS OF REPRESSION. South End Press, 1988.
Professor Churchill gives first hand accounts of F.B.I. death squad activities.

Churchill, Ward. THE COINTELPRO PAPERS. South End Press, 1990.
Explores how the F.B.I. disrupts legitimate political activities and engage in Death Squad activities.

Criley, Richard. THE F.B.I. VS. THE FIRST AMENDMENT. First Amendment Foundation, 1990.
Looks at the destruction of the First Amendment by the F.B.I.

Davis, John. MAFIA KINGFISH: CARLOS MARCELLO AND THE ASSASSINATION OF JOHN F.
KENNEDY. McGraw-Hill, 1989.
Pivotal book in understanding how the FBI has uses the Mafia to carry out political and other murders of our political and civil rights leaders.

De Camp, John. THE FRANKLIN COVERUP. AWT Publishers, 1992.
A former Republican state senator from Nebraska writes about a pedophile ring involved in the
kidnaping, sexual torture and murder of children that went all the way to the Bush White House.
Attorney DeCamp discusses the FBI role in the coverup of this case and the murder of a special
prosecutor appointed to investigate the pedophile ring.

Dempsey, James X. and David Cole. TERRORISM AND THE CONSTITUTION: SACRIFICING CIVIL
LIBERTIES IN THE NAME OF NATIONAL SECURITY. Los Angeles, CA: First Amendment
Foundation, 1999. Examines FBI campaign of terror to undermine civil liberties.

Diamond, Sigmund. COMPROMISED CAMPUS. Oxford University Press, 1992.
Professor Diamond attempts to get F.B.I. files showing collaboration between the F.B.I. and colleges
and universities from 1945-1955.

Donner, Frank. PROTECTORS OF PRIVILEGE. University of California Press, 1990.
Looks at collaboration between local police and the F.B.I. to stifle first amendment rights.

Dwyer, James. TWO SECONDS UNDER THE WORLD. Diane publishers 1997.
The most important book you will read on understanding FBI involvement in 9-11
terrorist act at the World Trade Center. This book lays out in detail how the FBI engineered
the first World Trade Center explosion.

Emerson, Steven and Brian Duffy. THE FALL OF PAN AM 103. G.B. Putnam's Sons, 1990.
Oliver Revell was the number 2 man at the F.B.I. until he was demoted by F.B.I. Director
William Sessions to the Dallas Field Office. His son Chris Revell had tickets for
Pan Am 103, but he changed his flight two days before the plane exploded over Lockerbie,
Scotland. See Ross Gelbspan's book, BREAK-INS, DEATH THREATS AND THE FBI to get a
fuller picture of Oliver Revell.

Foerstel, Herbert. SURVEILLANCE IN THE STACKS. Greenwood Press, 1991.
Looks at attempts by the F.B.I. to get librarians to spy on the American public.

Gallagher, Dorothy. ALL THE RIGHT ENEMIES. Penguin Books, 1988.
The F.B.I. utilized the Mafia to carry out its executions against political activists from 1930 through
1970. Carlos Tresca was one of their victims.

Gelbspan, Ross. BREAK- INS, DEATH THREATS, AND THE F.B.I. South End Press, 1991.
This Pulitzer Prize winning reporter formerly with the Boston Globe, details F.B.I. collaboration
with the death squads in El Salvador and their attacks upon American groups opposed to those death
squads.

Glick, Brian. WAR AT HOME. South End Press, 1989.
Attorney Glick details the F.B.I.’s covert war against political activists.

Hoffman, David. THE OKLAHOMA CITY BOMBING AND THE POLITICS OF TERROR. Feral
House, 1998.
Contains detailed evidence about the FBI alliance with the terrorist underworld,
and how FBI agent provocateurs are behind many of the current bombings that have plagued the United States since the fall of the Berlin Wall. Some current thinking has FBI agents creating these acts to fill the void caused by the downfall of communism.

Hougan, Jim. SPOOKS. William Morrow, 1978.
Important book detailing the life of former F.B.I. agent Robert Maheux and his relationship with the Mafia. Groundbreaking book in understanding FBI collaboration with the Mafia, using it to carry out assassinations on President Kennedy, Martin Luther King and others. See author Bud Schultz




Kaiser, Marty . Odyssey of an Eavesdropper( My Life in electronic countermeasures and my battle against the FBI) W Carroll & Graf 2005
Author exposes wiretapping crimes committed by FBI agents as well as Business Fraud. He built the wiretapping devices for FBI agents that were later used in crimes committed against people like Martin Luther King and public officials.After exposing FBI agents kickback schemes to Congress the author became a target of retaliation by tax payer funded FBI agents.

Keith, Jim. OK BOMB. Illuminate, 1996.
Explores FBI coverup in the Oklahoma City bombing investigation.

Kelly, John F. TAINTING EVIDENCE. The Free Press 1998. The book is based on testimony of FBI lab Whistleblower Dr. Frederick Whitehurst , an employee of the FBI for 17 years. Shows how bad the FBI Lab is run. Dr. Whitehurst was the chemist who analyzed Timothy McVeigh's clothes for traces of ammonium nitrate and was removed from the case when he did not find any bomb residue.



Lehr, Dick & O'Neill, Gerard. BLACK MASS. Public Affairs, 2000.
Looks at the FBI's collaboration in Boston with the Mafia and Irish Mob between 1960 and 2001 in which they collaborated in the murder of 21 women,children and men. Important book showing how the FBI uses the Mafia to commit political and other assassinations .

Melanson, Phillip. THE MURKIN CONSPIRACY. Praeger, 1989.
Professor Melanson looks at the F.B.I.’s role in the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

Melanson, Phillip. THE ROBERT KENNEDY ASSASSINATION. Shapolsky, 1991.
Professor Melanson is in charge of the Robert Kennedy archives at the University of Massachusetts.
He details the F.B.I.’s role as one of the principal architects of the assassination of Robert Kennedy.

Messerschmidt, Jim. THE TRIAL OF LEONARD PELTIER. South End Press, 1983.
Looks at the miscarriage of justice in the F.B.I.’s handling of the Leonard Peltier case.

Oklahoma City Bombing Investigative Committee. THE FINAL REPORT.2001. The best book by far
providing overwhelming evidence of FBI involvement in the Oklahoma City Bombing .

Navasky, Victor. INVESTIGATING THE F.B.I. Doubleday, 1973.
Contains material presented at a major conference at Princeton University in 1971 investigating
crimes committed by the FBI.


Neff, James. MOBBED UP. Dell Publishers 1988.
Important book in understanding FBI collaboration with the Mafia especially how the Bureau
uses the Mafia to carry out its political assassinations.

Nelson, Jack. THE F.B.I. AND THE BERRIGANS. Coward, McCann & Geoghegan, 1972.
Looks at F.B.I. death squad directed against Nobel Peace Prize nominee Phil Berrigan and his
brother, Jesuit priest Daniel Berrigan.

Olsen, Jack. LAST MAN STANDING: THE TRAGEDY AND TRIUMPH OF GERONIMO PRATT.
Doubleday, 2000.
Provides supporting evidence for the idea of the F.B.I. as a death squad. Examines the F.B.I. acts of genocide against Afro-Americans . Looks at how FBI agents framed Geronimo Pratt, a Afro American Viet-nam vet who spent over 25 years in prison before a judge released him saying he was innocent and framed by FBI agents.

O’Reilly, Kenneth. RACIAL MATTERS. Free Press, 1989.
Professor O’Reilly looks at a file called Racial Matters that the F.B.I. is keeping on Black America.


Parenti, Michael. DIRTY TRUTHS. City Lights Books, 1996.
Dr. Parenti looks at F.B.I. involvement in the assassination of labor leader Walter Reuther while he was organizing protests against the Vietnam War. It includes the essay “Why the Left is Afraid to look at the Assassination of JFK”.

Pepper, William. ORDERS TO KILL. Carroll and Graf, 1995.
Attorney Pepper represented James Earl Ray in his bid for a new trial and won a landmark case in civil court in December 1999 for the Martin Luther King Jr. family. The jury in the case concluded hat the F.B.I. was involved in the assassination of King. His book details our government’s involvement and provides photographic evidence of the F.B.I.’s role in this assassination.



Pepper,William. ACT OF STATE: THE EXECUTION OF MARTIN LUTHER KING Verso Press, 2003
The evidence from the 1999 Civil Trial in Memphis brought by the King family in which the jury concluded FBI agents were principal architects in the assassination of Martin Luther King.

Powers, Richard Gid. SECRECY AND POWER. Free Press, 1987.
A biography of J. Edgar Hoover and his quest for power.

Powers, Tyrone. EYES TO MY SOUL. Majority Press, 1996.
Professor Powers an afro-american, talks about his 9 years working as an F.B.I. agent, and the
FBI FRUHMENSCHEN program. White agents tried to kill him when he was writing this book.

Ranalli, Ralph. DEADLY ALLIANCE. Harper Torch, 2001
Boston Globe reporter Ralph Rannali exposes FBI collaboration with the Boston Mafia from 1960-
2001 where they ran a Murder Inc. President Bush asserted Executive Privilege in 2002 preventing
Congress from seeing the Federal Prosecutor’s Investigative files on this case.

Robbins, Natalie. ALIEN INK. William Morrow, 1992.
Ms. Robbins acquired the F.B.I. files on the major writers and artists of the 20th century, and
examines F.B.I. attacks upon them and their freedom of expression.

Schultz, Bud and Ruth. IT DID HAPPEN HERE. University of California Press, 1989.
Contains interviews with human rights activists who survived F.B.I. assassination attempts.


Schultz, Bud and Ruth. THE PRICE OF DISSENT. University of California Press , 2001
The sequel to IT DID HAPPEN HERE with more interviews with civil rights activists and union
organizers and anti-war protestors who survived FBI assassination attempts and with family members of people who were murdered.

Seymour, Sheri. COMMITTEE OF THE STATES. Self-published, 1989.
The F.B.I. infiltrated the California Militia 10 years before the Oklahoma City bombing. The
book illustrates how easy it was for the F.B.I. to infiltrate the group and get it to make bombs.
Shows with child-like simplicity how easy it was for FBI agent provocteur to get Timothy McVeigh
to make bomb and drive the truck.

Sharkey, Joe. ABOVE SUSPICION. Simon & Schuster, 1993.
Looks at the F.B.I. coverup involving one of its own agents who murdered an informant after he got her pregnant.

Suarez, Manuel. REQUIEM ON CERRO MARAVILLA. Waterfront Press, 1987.
Looks at F.B.I. collaboration with local police in the arrest, handcuffing, and death squad execution of two teenagers in Puerto Rico.

Summers, Anthony. OFFICIAL AND CONFIDENTIAL. G.B. Putnam and Sons, 1993.
This is the book on which the PBS Frontline documentary on J. Edgar Hoover and his friendship
with the Mafia is based.

Theoharis, Athan. THE F.B.I. Garland Publishers, 1994.
Professor Theoharis has compiled a comprehensive listing of books and articles about the F.B.I. up to 1994.

Thomas, Kenn. THE OCTOPUS. Feral House, 1996.
Investigates the F.B.I.’s role in the killing of investigative reporter Danny Casolero while he was
investigating the October Surprise.

Turner, William. THE ASSASSINATION OF ROBERT KENNEDY. Thunder Mouth Press, 1993.
Written by a former F.B.I. agent, it looks at the F.B.I.’s involvement in the assassination of Robert
Kennedy.

Turner, William. REARVIEW MIRROR foreword by Oliver Stone. Penmarin Books CA 2001.
More updated information on FBI involvement in President Kennedy, Robert Kennedy and Martin
Luther King Assassination written by a former FBI agent.

U.S. Commission on Civil Rights. WHO IS GUARDING THE GUARDIANS? A Report on Police
Death Squad activities. 1981.

Wiener, Jon. GIMME SOME TRUTH. University of California Press, 1999.
Professor Wiener looks at the 14 year battle with the F.B.I. to get them to release their files on
John Lennon.


SUGGESTED WEB SITES AND VIDEOS

www.copvcia.com
www.narconews.com
www.okcbombing.org
www.unansweredquestions.org
www.911inquiry.org
www.heatisonline.org
www.whistleblowers.org
www.zpub.com/notes/fbi-shame.html
VIDEOS:
WACO:RULES OF ENGAGEMENT
SILENCED Jack Cashill
THE GREAT DECEPTION Barry Zwicker
TRUTH&LIES 911 Mike Ruppert
AFTERMATH:UNANSWEREDQUESTIONS

FBI agents arrested or sued in civil court for Pedophilia:
Edward Rodgers former head of FBI Child Abuse Program
http://www.headwatersproductions.co...s/article4.html
John Conditt former head of FBI internal affairs investigations.
http://www.freespeech.com/archives/002000.html

[Jacobin]

36. Christmas: 12/25

WTF do the numbers mean? Nada.

[Sydnie]

37. My freaky tinfoil hat thought

Big oil is trying to shut down mass transit around the world. Scare the world and have them drive cars more?

I know ... too crazy right?

[slackmaster]

38. Muslim radicals don't respect OUR calendar any more than our culture

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_calendar

:tinfoilhat: