Live-blogging Judiciary hearing on Hamden/Gitmo Part 4

[TayTay]

The hearing is back in session on C-Span 3. http://www.c-span.org/

Ted Olsen is currently pontificating on how the US must do anything possible to get the bad guys. What are civil liberties and Constitutional separation of powers when there might be terrorist under every bed anyway.

[helderheid]

1. Thanks Tay Tay - put a link to this thread in thread 3 - RECOMMENDED

[Norquist Nemesis]

2. Thanks for the heads up! n/t

[cal04]

3. thanks TayTay

I very much appreciate the threads.

[TayTay]

6. My writing is very spotty this afternoon.

But I will write what I can. (I have to leave all together at 3:15. Sorry.)

[helderheid]

4. I wonder if the loss of his wife is fueling his attitude

[TayTay]

8. His wife was a Rethug

Who wrote a book on how evil the Clinton's were. Death was not discriminatory on that day, it took lots of people from all walks of life and all points of view.

[AndyA]

5. Thanks - recommended. Koh is a very smart guy, I'm glad he's on

our side. A friend went to see him speak, and was very impressed with him.

[Norquist Nemesis]

7. Leahy asking questions now

to Swift

[TayTay]

9. The last point was very good

Why should the US be the only nation not to sign a statement of basic understanding of how prisoners are to be treated. Why indeed.

[helderheid]

10. exactly!

[TayTay]

13. More questioning

No one has been convicted from Gitmo in 3 1/2 years. What procudures are in place to prosecute under the UCMJ in a time of war while keeping secret what needs to be kept secret?

Swift: There is a provision in the current law to protect classified info.

(Swift has been arguing that we have the protections we need in current law and don't need sweepign new powers for the PRes or to disregard the rights of prisoners as the DoJ lawyers argued earlier.)

[TayTay]

17. Leahy is bringing up the signing statements

Geneva Convention Common Article 3 is ambiguous and hard to implement.

Koh: The Admin doesn't know what humiliating and degrading treatment is. Anyone who saw the Abu Ghraib pics knows what this is. (Ooooooh!)

Ohter countries can apply these standards.

Good points.

[Norquist Nemesis]

11. Explaining how Hamdan's notes on strategy were taken

after a meeting between him and Hamdan. Says those were the only things taken in the search.

:wow:

[helderheid]

12. wouldn't take much to get this thread on the greatest page...

[The Witch]

14. K&R I'm back witcha

[helderheid]

16. welcome back!

:hi:

[helderheid]

15. talking about Bradbury - the asshat that said the President is always righ

[helderheid]

18. ugh - Graham

[Norquist Nemesis]

19. Graham: My basic concern is shared by Mr. Olsen

Hah! I'm stunned! :sarcasm:

[The Witch]

20. Graham Crackers is ok with courts but wants to be able to treat em badly

... :eyes:

what-EVER :eyes:

[TayTay]

21. Graham: Shares concerns with Ted Olsen

Common Article 3 presents an obstacle with how the US defends itself. (Sigh!) UCMJ says specific things about military commission. What restricitons has Congress put on this?

Olsen: Ahm, Congress should note that we have had military commissions and allow them. (Sigh! This line of reasoning is seeking to back-date the law and poses that Bush is not doing anything wrong, he is just very zealous in protecting the safety. What's the problem anyway. This is the current Rethug argument across the board.)

We have always lived at the Castle. We have always had recourse to military commissions. There is nothing at all strange or new going on here. Move along and let the Pres defend this great nation. Sigh!

[Norquist Nemesis]

23. Yup! In a nutshell!

Graham's pointing out in the morning session that Congress makes the law that covers UCMJ, so that's the place to start, is exactly where all of this is going. Commander in Chief, in a time of war governs ALL (military, civilian, ngo, courts, everything).

[malaise]

22. Watching again -thanks n/t

[TayTay]

24. Silliman

We should have the UCMJ. We should abide by it. It complies with Common Article 3. We need minimum amendments to the code, espeically as regards courts marshall.

The baseline for the new system should be the UCMJ.

[The Witch]

25. This fellow is arguing something that reminds me of FISA a bit.

Legislation that was a response to the concern about the things that were nonetheless legal before its passage. Supreme Court said OK, but then they passed legislation.

Reminds me of the FISA law and how it was fixed after Clinton did that one house search...

[helderheid]

26. Cornyn up - Graham is rocking in his chair

[Norquist Nemesis]

27. Cornyn (not sure I can listen to him)

:argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh:

Al Queda! Al Queda! Boo!

[The Witch]

28. The Great Cornholio: But the terrrrrrists might learn something!!

We have to keep them ignorant - sort of like our own people! (If our own people learn, they become terrrists too!)

[TayTay]

29. Cornyn: Going back to the 'Al Qaeda is listening' argument

Cornyn is going back to the standard Rethug argument #1: terrorists sit around and watch C-Span all day and pick up how to defeat us from watching Court TV and reading the NYTimes. (Geez, those terrorists are clever. Who knew you could figure out the entire Government case and strucutre for fighting 'terra' from watching C-Span and Court TV.)

Olsen: Oh yes. We must never say anything that might help the terrorists. The law should bend to that.

[Norquist Nemesis]

32. He must have been AWOL with what Swith just said

just moments ago! Swift said procedures are in place and have worked very well! :banghead:

[helderheid]

30. AAAGGHH

[The Witch]

37. c'mon babe don't give up now

we've made it this far! c'mon soldier!

[helderheid]

31. HE is the Constitutional authority!

He shouldn't be micromanaged ! AAACH!!!

[TayTay]

33. Those misguided lawyers who want rights

are just dumb and helping the terrorists. They don't need any of the rights we accord serial killers in the US because they are terrorists. (Terrorists are so evil they justify scraping 230 years of law. Sigh!)

[Norquist Nemesis]

34. Who...No...I missed that

Are you saying Olsen just stated the President is "THE Constitutional Authority?" Please tell me that's not what he said. Please!

[helderheid]

38. yep.

[The Witch]

35. Torture Sessions up...

the one person whose voice squicks me out more than Graham Crackers.

[Norquist Nemesis]

36. UGH! Mr. 2 olives and a thimble of moonshine is up!

Sessions always sounds like he had two martinis for breakfast and four at lunch!

[Norquist Nemesis]

39. ARGH! Shit! He wants to trash habeus corpus

so that Bush can point a finger labelling ANYONE enemy combatant (or as Sessions just said "illegal combatant"--new term?).

[helderheid]

40. The courts are "micro-managing" the President.

[Norquist Nemesis]

42. This is unbelievable stunning to hear how they are thinking

I am speechless.

[helderheid]

43. Fascists!

[malaise]

47. Mind-fugging blowing

Olsen says the people whose homes we go into in Iraq do not have our rights and they are trying to destroy our constitution. Would someone remind him that W and his goons invaded and occupied a sovereign country.

Get worried - these are fascists.

[Norquist Nemesis]

50. I am so far past worried and beyond concerned

especially after watching this hearing.

[malaise]

54. So who will overturn these fascists

and send them to The Hague.

[itzamirakul]

59. They are doling "reversal" thinking...reversal "logics"...

you can do it just by perceiving the world with a different (the oposite) outlook.

That is what the neocons and neolibs are doing ...working together to turn the world to their advantage and control while convincing us that it is the right thing to do for all concerned.

[helderheid]

41. I think I may puke

[Norquist Nemesis]

46. Now Hatch.

This is despicable.

[cal04]

44. Sessions wants to take every right of these

people meanwhile a lot of them aren't even charged yet with anything

[Norquist Nemesis]

48. "These People" as defined by "This President"

:scared:

[cal04]

49. These people need a country of their own and let

them make their own rules
they are disgusting. They want a dictator let them leave this country

[helderheid]

45. Hatch is up. Obligatory please donate to Pete Ashdown plea

www.peteashdown.org

[LSK]

51. you guys moved over here!

I was wondering why nobody was in the other thread! LOL

[Norquist Nemesis]

52. Welcome back!

:hi:

[helderheid]

53. Welcome! :)

[Norquist Nemesis]

55. Wow! Was Specter getting ready to close the hearing

without any questions from Democrats???

Di-Fi up now.

[The Witch]

56. He's going to use the Haynes hearing as an excuse

since it was scheduled for 2:15.

[LSK]

57. DiFi seemed to be begging to ask a question

This is pathetic!

[helderheid]

60. I had to step away briefly - they were going to shut it down?

[Norquist Nemesis]

62. Yes. They're wrapping up

Di-Fi was timidly pleading to ask another question.

[cal04]

58. Good for Swift 5 years of this

we need to do this now

[Norquist Nemesis]

61. Koh: To say Hamdan is not Constitutional issue is just wrong

:thumbsup: Points out that SC cited steel seizure case.

[Norquist Nemesis]

63. *GAVEL* On to another hearing

Did you catch Di-Fi's big sigh? LOL!

[helderheid]

64. I wondered who that was!

[Norquist Nemesis]

65. CSPAN re-airing tonight at 8pm eastern

Just announced.

Later! :hi:

[ReadTomPaine]

66. Anyone hear that woman at the very end, in the crowd?

She said "Our country is dying", before they potted down the mike on her.

Quite the microcosm of modern politics.

[Thorandmjolnir]

67. Here is the big issue that no one is talking about

The President and his henchmen (Including those in Congress) all assume that each and everyone of the people held prisoner at Gitmo are terrorist and guilty of serious crimes. Therefore, any questioning of what the President is doing is the same as setting evil terrorist free. Any safeguards or evidentiary procedures that gets in the way of finding these individuals guilty is viewed as hampering the war effort.

Just one small problem: THEY ARE PRESUMED INNOCENT!

All the evidentiary safeguards do is to guarantee that Innocent people are not wrongly convicted. Thats why hearsay and unsworn testimony is usually not allowed in a court of law, because it is unreliable, unverifiable and thus does not guarantee that the right person is actually found guilty.


The way they are arguing is as if they are told to release people that have been convicted. Thats not the case. No one has been convicted. No one has viewed the evidence in an objective manner and determined that yes, this individual is guilty of a crime.

All that the defense lawyers are asking for is, if you're going to send someone to death or years in prison, at least make sure we have the right guy.

How does Bush know Hamdan is guilty of anything? Has he seen the evidence? Has he heard from witnesses? Has he hear Hamdan's defense?

No. Nothing has been proved.

As a matter of fact, the only crime Hamdan is charged with is Conspiracy. That is, he talked and planned with others to commit an act of terrorism. They did not even have enough to charge him with an actual crime. They had not enough to prove that Hamdan did an overt act in furtherance of this conspiracy.

Furthermore, 4 Supreme court justices ruled that conspiracy is not a war crime. Kennedy chickened out and said that because he agreed with other reasonings he had no reason to address the issue of conspiracy being a war crime.

[WinkyDink]

68. The basic, most elemental issue is that this ought not to be a

military venture.
I think more terrorists have been caught the old-fashioned cops-and-criminals way. Well, okay; with a little extra-judicial action (Black September/Munich).

But this "war", with its torture and its Kafka-esque prisons, has FAILED MISERABLY in apprehending anybody yet SUCCEEDED in fomenting MORE terrorism.

Failure is why Guantanemo should be shut down, if the Republicans can't grasp law and justice.