Do you know any Poor People?

[Philosoraptor]

Not "welfare queens" like in the republican caricatures, but just plain folks who just can't seem to catch up to the American dream of success and happiness through monetary gain?

Do you know any so called poor people? Are you one?

Don't you wish that poor people had a better lot in life? I do. I think this nation wastes so much and spends so much on death and destruction and greed that the poor are just an annoyance to the rich.

Do you know any rich people? Are you one?

[Marr]

1. Yeah- they're in my family photos.

Everyone in my family is working in a low pay job with zero security, and most are in debt. I'm the Howard Hughes of my family and I drive a 15 year old car.

I know some people who'd certainly qualify as "welfare queens", though. They haven't worked a day in 25 years and bilk the system professionally. But that's 2 people out of 50 or so.

[AspenRose]

31. Ditto

I'm related to quite a few poor people.

[warrens]

2. Yeah, I'm letting one live in my house while he tries to find work here

And no, I am not rich. Far from it.

He's lost a couple of jobs and his wife died and he ended up pretty much penniless.

[kwassa]

3. Know both

[Catherine Vincent]

4. Not welfare queens?

??

[ret5hd]

5. So how many of these mythical "welfare queens" do YOU know?

[Philosoraptor]

7. several actually

and they are white. they've been abusing the welfare system for decades.

[Thtwudbeme]

23. I would like you to explain what makes them welfare queens

thanks. Looking forward to it.

[Philosoraptor]

26. These particular people

That I know, are all able bodied and mock the welfare system that feeds them, they sell foodstamps for drugs while their kids want.

I call them abusers of the welfare system, which I myself have had to use a couple times and felt terrible about it.

[Thtwudbeme]

33. I spent almost a decade on the street as a paramedic

my husband is involved heavily in poverty issues; neither one of us have ever seen one of the types you are describing.

I am not saying cheats don't exist, I am saying that if you know "several" and it galls you so badly that you feel the need to post about it---why haven't you reported them to the authorities?

Or are you the type that believes your neighbors pet unicorn is real also?

[Philosoraptor]

34. I can't make you belive me.

But I do know many people who take advantage of the system.

[Thtwudbeme]

39. Yes! Yes you can! Give me some credible details

I am ready to hear it; I am open minded.

I have never met a terrorist either, but I believe they exist.

I never met a Tibetan Monk until a few months ago, but I believed in them.

Come on, these aren't fairies from Peter Pan we are talking about...these are real every day folks.

You can do it.

[hfojvt]

64. I know one

not exactly a welfare queen, but he made it his life's ambition to get a mental disability check. He finally made it at age 45 or so. Before that he would work odd jobs and live off food stamps and HUD. Always bragging about how strong he is and what a great athelete he was, but somehow, unable to stay on a job.

Decent enough guy. I lent him $50 once so his power would not get turned off, but why shouldn't he work for a living?

Another woman who rented from me had a six year old son and basically partied all the time. Not getting rich off it, to be sure, but basically just avoiding work. Isn't that milking the system?

I am surprised that you have never seen it.

[SensibleAmerican]

81. Both of your positions are cloaked as absolutes

Some people game the system, for a variety of motives (desperation being one of them). Some people feel very bad for taking government assistance (the motive behind this being brainwashing).

However, the simple fact that does not change is that these people are poor, with or without welfare.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

42. Is "many" more than "several"?

Did you meet more "welfare queens" in between the two posts?

[intheflow]

84. I also know some welfare cheats.

When I was 17, pregnant and on welfare, I couldn't get $30 for a crib out of welfare. But a junkie couple I knew in the neighborhood got a couple thousand dollars for a "furniture allowance" which they immediately blew on heroin. They got this allowance when their children had already been taken away from them, they were such junkies. (White also, incidentally, in Western Massachusetts.) But me, playing by the rules, couldn't buy my son a crib. I knew this couple because my ex's sister and brother-in-law were junkies. I know a whole lot of junkies through them. The story I told above is not the only story I could tell.

So yes, I personally know several people who scam the system.
Doesn't mean the majority of people scam the system.
I didn't scam the system.
And, yes, the caricature/stereotype of the "welfare queen" is a grotesque, Reagan era fallacy.
But just because you didn't see any cheats... did you live among them, or only visit on emergency calls? And does your husband work with homeless junkies, or in grass roots community organizing?

This isn't an attack on either you or your husband, I commend you both on what you do. It's merely to say that I also work on class and economic justice issues, and I know that the people I community organize with are not the same people that are doing heroin, crack, or meth. And the couple of welfare cheats I knew could class-pass with their white skin very well, so if you met them, you probably wouldn't know they were junkies. They always did their hard drugs away from people, they could hold it togther for a few hours a day.

[Red Right and BLUE]

134. wha??

"my husband is involved heavily in poverty issues; neither one of us have ever seen one of the types you are describing."

Ha! Visit Oklahoma sometime. You could find people like this in any state.

To answer OP: Yes to poor and yes to rich. I've known people who've needed the help and I've known the system-abusers, too.

[pitohui]

49. there are no more food stamps, haven't been for years

there's a card that you can get, but the stamps that people used to sell at a discount to buy drugs, that was cut off in the early 90s

it must have been quite a while since you have gotten together w. that branch of the family!

[Greyhound]

67. That's pretty funny as a former girlfriend was getting them in 2001. n/t

[ScreamingMeemie]

71. Ummmm...wrong.

http://www.fns.usda.gov/fsp/applicant_recipients/using_foodstamps.htm


"In some areas, States are still using paper coupons, but they are being phased out."


So, it could be that this person lives in an area that still uses them. Just because they don't exist where you live, doesn't make them nonexistant.

[pitohui]

106. well that is VERY odd

usda has been telling us for over a decade around here that only the cards are available, never the stamps


this was an innovation that came out during the crack years -- phased in during the late 80s/early 90s, we are not talking abt something recent here

i will accept that this is still happening somewhere but clearly it is a loophole deliberately being allowed to facilitate fraud and i would be interested in knowing how those areas got
themselves exempted for so long and what congresscritter/senator would be responsible

i will repeat my other post -- if fraud is occurring and the OP knows abt it, he has a duty to report it and he should, venting on an internet board will not save the taxpayer one dime

[JuniperLea]

51. I find that surprising

Because every person I've ever known who tried to play the system got cut off after a while. One had her kids taken away when she was found to be out of food stamps with empty cupboards and an eviction notice on the front door.

[Mr_Spock]

112. Tell me about it...

I have known so many people that fit this profile.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

37. Please post a notarized affidavit attesting to this claim.

Thank you in advance.

[Thtwudbeme]

41. I don't need that

I just need something to go on other than "well...I do."

Is that asking too much? This is the OP...clearly these people bother him...let's discuss it.

[Philosoraptor]

47. As an exrremely poor person myself,

I happen to know several people who are able bodied, which I am not, who refuse to work.

I am homebound, receiving no SS or Aid or welfare at the moment, totally unable to work, and I will eventually need assistance with it. I hate to see able bodied people abusing the system, and I'm not making these people up, I know them.

I am unable to work at all, haven't left the house in months, and I feel I have a right to complain about abusers of the system.

[Thtwudbeme]

50. Do you fully understand their circumstances?

Can they get a job with a living wage?

Do they have mental or emotional issues?

Do they have children?

Just out of an abusive relationship?

Come one, welfare doesn't pay enough for "able bodied" people to lounge around for awhile.

What are you NOT telling us?

As far as your situation is concerned; that is horrible. I hope your children are helping you out.

Now, back to these queens...what are the details?

[pitohui]

55. go ahead and report them, absolutely

i don't see the problem, if you are aware of the law being violated, by all means file a complaint and send a copy to your congresscritter to be sure the cheat will be investigated

i've only had to do this once, but in my state (louisiana) even a severely disabled person has a huge barrier to claiming their disability, it is basically not going to happen w.out a lawyer, so i am skeptical of boasts that people can game the system, there are big talkers at every level of society and some poor people talk big to boost their pride, but it seems to turn out that they are getting v. v. little -- or nothing -- by way of aid to dependent children or disability unless they can prove they have serious issues

[bobbolink]

151. Do you really want to advise people to report?

I see that you gave disclaimers, and are sympathetic to people who are just struggling to live with the system.

However, advising people to go ahead and report can cause all kinds of severe consequences. It can easily result in people losing all the support they have to survive, and end up killing themselves, because they have no other options (like some of the Katrina survivors). I sure wouldn't want to have that on me.

It can also result in people losing their children. If children are being abused, that's one thing. I've reported on that, also. But, I'm not really hearing anything in this thread that sounds like evidence that there is real abuse going on.

Reporting is so severe that it's not to be taken lightly.

However, I do appreciate you reminding us, in a way, that there are definitely people in this world who would report just to vent their spleens. Those who are in a vulnerable position must, therefore, be very careful who they associate with, and who they confide in!

[A-Schwarzenegger]

48. I do. I'm going to hunt them down and perform a citizen's arrest.

I'm one of those "poor people" and I heard tell there's good money
in turning in "welfare queens".

[Ron Green]

63. People who abuse the system and people who are abused BY

the system are sometimes the same. And sometimes they go back and forth between these poles. I work everyday with people who can't pay their rent and have run out of resources and are f***** over by the system all the time, but who also make bad decisions about their money, their friends, the food they eat and the cigs they smoke.

Poverty is a complex issue about which people tend to make simplistic statements. Those of us who are not poor are scared by it, I think, because we know that we're not doing enough to alleviate it, or maybe we CAN'T fix it by throwing money at it, or maybe for some of us we're scared it might overtake us someday.

[sam sarrha]

43. you can only get welfare for 2 years..

[Mr_Spock]

111. I knew way too many - there are some real leeches out there

I grew up in a poor city neighborhood - it's incredible how many people fall into/are raised into extremely bad habits. Lying, stealing, sleazing you for your money, and especially "beating the system" - as in bilking the government for as much money as they could possibly get - legally or otherwise. I don't, however, believe in throwing out the baby with the bathwater. 99% of folks you meet are good, hardworking people. Those 1% make life miserable for the rest and I grew to have NO sympathy for the sleazels.

[Greyhound]

132. I sympathize with your feelings, but you realize that the sum of all

the welfare fraud doesn't amount to even 1% of the HEW budget. It is just a distraction to garner support for hurting poor people and keep the rest afraid.

[Mr_Spock]

140. Obviously I wasn't talking politically

I have no idea how much the fraud effects the budget, and welfare reform has cut down on a lot of the abuse in my experience (though folks always find a way around reforms). It's too bad that an issue that is a real annoyance to poor hard working city folk and which also creates perception problems can't be fixed - I guess it's just the nature of the beast. There is an aspect of 'keeping the peace' that exists WRT many of these folks.

[Mojambo]

I make slightly less than 15,000 a year.

I suppose that makes me poor, but as a single guy I scrape by pretty well.

[Greyhound]

45. Damn, where?

I live in a fairly cheap (compared to the coasts) place, and you can't even rent a studio and have enough left to eat or pay utilities on that.

[Mojambo]

58. Shared housing east of Seattle

I also have zero debt. No car payment, credit cards or anything.

I live pretty lean, but I could never rent (even a studio) by myself.

[Greyhound]

79. Ah, thanks for answering. I was hoping that things were better than

I thought. :evilfrown:

[SensibleAmerican]

68. Life is so much easier as a single guy

:) If you don't mind me asking, have you gone to college?

[Mojambo]

73. Briefly.

College really didn't take with me.

I wish I had ground it out now, obviously.

[Midlodemocrat]

92. Not to sound condescending, but if you can try and go

back and get your degree, you will never regret it. Even if you never 'use' it to help secure your employment, you will never regret it.

[Mojambo]

98. It's in the back of my mind

Logistically it just doesn't work right now.

This economy has me working 6 days a week just to stay afloat.

Excuses, excuses... I know.

[Midlodemocrat]

103. Believe me, I know.

I was teaching high school and going to grad school and it just about killed me. In addition to all the studying, prepping for teaching, etc., the commute was an hour each way.

I sometimes wonder how I survived on such little sleep. And, if you want to talk about barely staying afloat, try making it in Stamford, CT on a Catholic High School teacher's salary. I still can't believe I didn't have to declare bankruptcy.

[ClassWarrior]

6. Uhhhhh... "welfare queens??" And that'd be rightwing codeword for what?...

NGU.

[Marie26]

10. To distinguish between

Poor people we sympathize with, and poor people we demean, of course.

[ClassWarrior]

13. I was gonna say...

...single mothers of color getting obscenely wealthy on the backs of honest, hard workin' Murkins.

But your definition will work too.

NGU.

[Marie26]

86. But you added in

the essential implicit racism. I like your definition better.

[Marie26]

11. dupe. nt

[SlipperySlope]

8. Can you give a more precise definition?

What, exactly, is poor?

What, exactly, is rich?

I accept that some people will always have more than others. How much of a difference is bad? How much of a difference is good?

[donheld]

9. I am poor people

And i know both rich and poor

[Philosoraptor]

12. I know both kinds too.

I'm flat ass broke, but my kids are doing well.

[Union Thug]

14. Let's see...

We'll start with my sister, then we can move on to most of my neighbors (some of whom are lucky to be in section 8 housing, while others are working several jobs to pay the rent for the crackerbox houses in my area)...

I was once part of that demographic, and I could easily return. My success has been mostly a matter of dumb luck and I know that any day could find me back in that struggle.

I also know rich people. I am certainly not one of them. I find that our backgrounds clash so vividly that we have nothing to talk about outside professional topics. Nor do I really want to have much else to do with them. They tend to be pompous, arrogant, self-centered jerks. That may be a little broad, but in general, that's my experience.

[Warpy]

15. I spent the last 3 years living on $800/month

and my mortgage took the first $560. Yes, I know some poor folks. I was one.

I have also been in a position to rub elbows with the truly rich in social situations, and I'm talking about people with a net worth over $10,000,000, old money. I was invited because I had a reputation as a wit. Poor things.

So yes, I've at least met and socialized with a few wealthy people.

I have since inherited enough to pay the mortgage off, make it through the next few years to social security, and do a few repairs on my house. I don't consider this wealthy, but it's enormously better than what I've gone through over the last 3 years.

Yes, poor folks need better things, better access to health care, to jobs and other opportunities, to living wages, and to support if, in my case, they become too ill to keep working.

Just don't expect any of it to happen while conservatives in both parties remain in office.

[TomInTib]

16. I know some of both.

I know people who are unable to pay the rent and I live next door and across the street from people who make tens of millions of dollars per year.

[SlipperySlope]

18. Sometimes those are one and the same

If you make tens of millions a year, and your rent is hundreds of millions a year, then you have a problem.

My point: high income does not equal rich if your debts and expenses outweigh it.

[sendero]

72. That is the lesson.

... that many Americans refuse to learn. It doesn't matter what you make, you have to spend less than that.

[laruemtt]

17. spending almost a year in

st. lucia has taught me what true material poverty is. i see tons of it here. but these people have a spirit you wouldn't believe. on the other hand, i know a lot of people in the u.s. who "poor mouth" as my ma calls it. before i get flamed off this board, i know there is genuine poverty in the u.s. but it sometimes can be very relative and exist more in a person's state of mind.

[On the Road]

19. I Know Poor People

I have Section 8 tenants, handymen, and people in the neighborhood who are poor by any standard. Some are honest and hardworking. Some are lazy, dishonest, and short-sighted. Some are drug addicts or prostitutes. All of them should be able to have a decent living for a decent day's work.

I am now middle-income, but for a period of several years, I was poor myself -- at least for long enough to be able to relate.

I also know a few people who might be considered rich, as in living in retirement in Hawaii, having multiple houses stateside, and pretty much spending whatever they feel like. Of the few people I know like this, most consider themselves rich due to their own efforts and look down on those who are less fortunate.

[Sapphire Blue]

20. Yes, I do. Do you? If not, you can meet some here...

http://www.usccb.org/cchd/povertyusa/realwords.shtml

... and you can learn what it's like to budget for poverty here: http://www.nccbuscc.org/cchd/povertyusa/tour2.htm

... and how to help here: http://www.usccb.org/cchd/povertyusa/involved.shtml

[Just Me]

21. I've lived in poverty, known impoverished, witnessed a few,...

,...who believe their only means of survival is perpetual welfare. I don't call those few, "welfare queens", I call them people who don't believe they can survive any other way.

[AngryAmish]

22. I know lots of rich folks

They tend to have nice cars.

[slackmaster]

29. Rich people are a dime a dozen around here

Don't be fooled by the cars. A lot of people are way in hock to have more car than they really need.

The way to tell real rich people is by their shoes.

[knitter4democracy]

32. Amen to that.

That's how I know. ;)

[Rosemary2205]

94. Every rich person I know has old dress shoes

which they routinely polish and resole. The one's I know also tend to drive well built but ordinary cars without all the bells and whistles.

Not saying all rich fit this profile. Of course not. Just the one's I personally know.

[datasuspect]

144. agree

the wealthiest person i've ever known (inherited family wealth, chicago north shore - lake forest - home on the national register of historic places) routinely wore a cheap timex watch and was completely lacking in ostentation.

the nouveau riche, the "credit rich," small business types (i should qualify this: small business owners with relatively miniscule net worth who feel like they are bill gates), and high-level middle managers get off into that hummer/rolex/mcmansion jive. these are also some of the most asinine, stupid people to meet when you run into them.

[serryjw]

109. Try Oprah show

She is repeating the debt diet. Families making OVER a $100K and living with OVER a $100K in DEBT!

http://www2.oprah.com/index.jhtml

[laylah]

143. .

I am not sure if you meant the pun I got from your post ("They tend to have nice cars") re: you being Amish but it sure made me :rofl: (Certainly NO disrespect meant)

Jenn

[WilliamPitt]

24. Several

The poor people I know are almost all in the service industry - bartenders, bouncers, waiters, waitresses, cooks, sales associates in retail - who live on a tight cash subsistence and go from week to week. These aren't kids scrapping through college, but people my age whose lives took a sideways turn at some point (one bartender got testicular cancer and had his serious music career derailed, and now pulls beers to pay back the hospital, and a cook I know had his own record store in NYC before a Virgin Megastore opened up down the block and priced him out).

The economy lives and dies on these people, these service industry people in a service industry economy, and they barely survive.

[Philosoraptor]

30. The working poor.

they are merely existing and struggling and holding several jobs. I know thousands.

[WilliamPitt]

53. You know thousands?

You're a busy bee.

[Thtwudbeme]

60. That's a shitload of bartenders

but, somehow I believe this.

[AllNamesHaveBeenUsed]

80. I've known bartenders, waiters and waitresses...

Who make $75,000 - $80,000 a year (depends on the establishment).

[WilliamPitt]

91. You hang out in some swanky places

The ones I know work the Boylston St. strip, and live and die by the week. It all depends on the mindset of the employers, and the customer base...in the case of my friends, said customer base is a bunch of college students who haven't yet learned the fine art of tipping.

[AllNamesHaveBeenUsed]

97. College students...

Well, when you have to dig through dirty pants and couch cushions for loose change in order to go out drinking...

As I said, and you echoed, it all depends on location (and clientele). My best friend has a degree in psychology. He worked his way through school as a bartender in an upscale seafood restaurant. He never sought employment in his field. After graduation, he found it difficult to give up the easy money... and girls.

[cobalt1999]

142. worked my way through college as a bartender too...

then spent one year after graduation tending bar at a yacht club restaurant at night, spent the days on the beach. Great life for a young single guy. I can relate to how difficult it is to give up (especially the girls). I just couldn't see myself doing the same thing at age 40 though, so went and got a "real" job.

[slackmaster]

25. I know someone who is poor and on Welfare but not a "queen" stereotype

She's not a drunk or a druggie, just someone who got screwed over by two men, to each of whom she was married, with one child from each marriage.

She has fibromyalgia and cannot do heavy work. She lacks high-level job skills because she focused on taking care of her children.

I wish she had it better, but despite my inability to find fault with her choices per se, she is where she is largely as a result of them.

She's a Republican BTW.

Rich people? Sure, I know lots of them.

[nosillies]

27. I have both in my family

Makes for some uncomfortable family gatherings sometimes. Also makes it kind of difficult to decide where we're going for family vacation sometimes.

Just goes to show you that people can come from the exact same type of background and yet have very different circumstances due to bad luck, bad choices, bad investments, etc.

There but for the grace of God go you, smug rich Republicans!

[shanti]

28. is this a trick question??

of course. :eyes: who doesn't?

[bertha katzenengel]

35. Oh, hell yes. My sisters.

One is a single mom and struggles terribly. She and her two kids - one who is old enough to work but some emotional problems keep her from it, so far - live hand to mouth, paycheck to paycheck. It's infuriating. Too, she lives under the threat of losing her house. She rents our grandmother's house from our father. He wants the rent - currently very low to help her out, $1500* - to supplement the payments to her secure nursing home. My sister lives every day in anxiety, wondering when he's going to lower the boom.

My other sister and her husband own their home, but although they have two incomes they struggle too.

I'd be struggling if I hadn't married a woman who works in Washington DC and moved to live with her in So. MD, where housing prices are relatively low and salaries relatively high. I am lucky, and try every day not to feel guilty.

My sisters and I grew up in abject poverty, on welfare, and thanks to our criminal stepfather, often jumped the rent. We've broken several patterns, but some are harder to break than others, especially with circumstances beyond our control.

* He could get at least $2000, maybe more. Grandma's care is $4000 per month. But he pays for her care out of her estate. :eyes:

[Gabi Hayes]

102. I love you, bertha! see below

I just sent your website to my old GF, who, along with her sister in Eugene, OR, is doing the same thing you are.

last time I talked to them, they've paid to have 14 strays neutered, and are keeping about ten in their houses

http://www.katzenengel.org/



she'll like just the web name, having lived in Germany for several years

[bertha katzenengel]

120. Cool! Thanks for sending it to her, Gabi. It's not much yet

but I have plans . . . :hi:

I like the name, too. It has a second much lesser meaning - I am a big Angels' (baseball) fan O8).

[Greyhound]

36. Yes and recently yes.

Two points:

1.) For ~10% of our annual military budget, we "could provide clean water, adequate diets, sanitation services, health care, and basic education to every person on the planet" - Confessions of an Economic Hit Man - John Perkins

1998 UN Development Program estimates;
$9 Billion Clean water and sanitation planet-wide
$12 Billion reproductive health-care
$13 Billion adequate diet and general health-care
$6 Billion universal education

And how much is it costing us not to do this? 100's of billions? Trillions?

2.) "The American Dream" is traditionally liberty, "success and happiness through monetary gain" is the Homunculus created to replace the genuine article.

[Maestro]

38. Yes,

I know many families who have children that attend my school. They are living day to day, month to month.

[pitohui]

40. i know both rich and poor people

i am a bit of chameleon in real life, i guess, i have known several homeless people quite well although they are scattered now but i live in quite a rich area and know rich people who have many millions also

i wish everyone had a better lot of life, for many poor people there is simply no avenue for them to gain sufficient money legally to pay their bills, all "education" does is put them more deeply in debt

one of my friends just graduated summa cum laude from university and yet her house is falling down around her ears and we can't figure out how to get her cross country to where she has a fellowship waiting in her field, which will pay the princely sum of $9,000 a semester so she can finally have some kind of tiny future

the rich people i know, yes, they have businesses, but they inherited those businesses and contacts down through the generations, i see v. little chance for upward mobility for people of my generation and almost none for the younger people just coming up, at least in my day a person could start their own business, now if a business makes any kind of decent income, a chain is running in that industry and you can't compete w. their price or advertising so being an entrepreneur now is just a nice way of saying that you live off a spouse or a parent and don't want to admit that you can't get a real job

[Ilsa]

44. Both of my brothers work like dogs, overtime, second job for one,

and they struggle. They don't have half the lifestyle of so many people.

My father is "comfortable", but has always lived very cheaply. He has a pension. No computer, no cell phones, etc.

We have a 3-2 home, amsot as old as we are. Not near enough saved, but more than most.

And I speak with new moms on the state's WIC program all the time. They are really struggling.

[hfojvt]

46. hard to tell

I do not know as many poor people as I once did. When I had a used bookstore they were constantly trying to sell me things, and my store was there to service thrifty and poorer people.

However, a better lot in life is not always about money. Some of the better lot too, is within their control, if they knew how to take it. I see so many people who either cannot or will not save money. I see payday loan places sprouting like weeds, for the purpose of fleecing poorer people.

I think that whole American Dream of "success and happiness through monetary gain" is a crock of sh*t to begin with and that we should have nobler dreams.

[pnwmom]

52. I know some poor people and some rich people.

And lots in the middle who are barely scraping by.

I think that the main difference between the Democrats and the Republicans is that the Democrats have more empathy for those in difficult situations.

[enid602]

54. poor

Yes, and many of thewm are middle class.

[zippy890]

56. I know a lot of poor people, I see them every day

in my work at a public housing agency.

They are disabled, elderly and single mothers with children,
most of the mothers are working, many of them 2 jobs.

They are working parents who can't afford the high cost of an 3 or 4 bedroom apartment
where the heating costs are so high.

I was one growing up when my alcoholic father left my mother with
6 children and didn't send child support and wondered if we'd have
enough money for the oil to heat our house.

My mother is one, living in subsidized housing, relying on Social Security and money I & my siblings give her
when we can so she can eat properly. None of us are rich, and I don't know anyone who is.

Being poor sucks big time, its not something one 'chooses' to be.

[Redstone]

57. Well, we do OK now, but Mrs R and I both grew up dirt poor, and

actually didn't get ahead of the economic curve until about 11 years ago.

And we worked damn hard to get to where we are. Are we rich? Some people might think so. But it doesn't seem like it to us.

And if the bottom fell out, we'd go back to being poor again; after all we did it for so long that it wouldn't be hard to remember how it's done.

Because we learned something important a long time ago: If you worry about something (like money), it doesn't change anything. The world stays the same, but you've been miserable because you wasted time worrying instead of enjoying life, in whatever manner you are able to live it.

Redstone

[nosillies]

62. Thanks for the last thought, I really needed it

I didn't sleep last night for worrying about money. I'll take that thought to bed with me tonight.

[Redstone]

117. Glad I could help. It's a REALLY important concept to help keep

your from being eaten up with worry.

Change what you can, and fuck what you can't change, if I may put it in a cruder (though more succinct) statement.

Redstone

[Rosemary2205]

59. Regarding "welfare queens"

I would like to say I also personally know 2 different families that work at playing the government system to the point where both have openly said they WILL NOT work -- and why should they if Uncle Sam will do it (in their words, not mine). Both worked hard to get every single one of thier kids classified as disabled - husband deliberately gained weight (and openly said he was) so he could go on SS disability by the time the regular welfare bennies ran out. These 2 families I would definately classify under "welfare queens" but definately the exception not the rule. -- as for reporting. I don't know about elsewhere, but in my state I found the attitude is that so long as all the paperwork is in order then they really do not care.

As per the fact I live in an area of lower middle class to lower class folk, I know a majority of good hardworking people who are frugal, careful, and just don't manage to ever get ahead. Many have used government bennies of some sort for short periods in life. Anything from WIC to food stamps to utility assistance to healthcare for the kids. Or all of the above. And let me stress, the vast majority of these are people who WANT to get ahead but just can't seem to catch a break.

[JuniperLea]

61. That would be me

Living paycheck to paycheck and going deeper in debt every month.

I don't party, I don't wear fancy clothes, I don't eat expensive food.

I live in a part of town just barely above ghetto status where a townhouse will cost you $400k and that mortgage will cost you $2000 a month. There's graffiti all over the 'hood and bums sleeping in the park. I don't have cable, I don't have a fancy car or expensive furniture. My big entertainment expense is $19 a month for netflix and $17 for internet connection. That's it. I make $60k a year and I'm living paycheck to paycheck. How sick as fuck is that?

[rsr1771]

69. consider moving?

Where I live, northwest Florida, 60k a year is a lot of dough. You can buy a decent house for 200k. For people who live in those expensive areas, do you ever consider moving to where its cheaper to live? Seems like an obvious solution to the high cost of living.

[Mr. Cigar]

78. speaking as a poor person

$30,000 a year for a family of 3 living in Portland Or. Downtown (Goose Hollow) to be exact. When you spend nearly 1/2 of your monthly income on rent, it is harder than hell to save up money to move to a cheaper place.
(libpunkmom posting on DH's account)

[JuniperLea]

89. Yep, that's the problem

Half my take-home goes to rent or mortgage, which are about the same in Los Angeles right now. If I move to a smaller town, I'd make less money... vicious circle.

[JuniperLea]

88. Salary/cost of living is different

I wouldn't make the same money for the same job down there.

I hope to get some equity going and then move and pay for a chunk of house with my equity. Otherwise, I'm in the same boat.

I've thought about it... a lot.

[Red Right and BLUE]

137. Would LOVE to (jumping in here)

however it would be an unwise move career-wise. Once this project is over in a couple of years. We can't wait!!

[ismnotwasm]

65. Yes, and I'd like to say, as a former Welfare Queen

I'd like to thank you all for your contributions. After years of high living onless than less than $700 a month less than $200 dollars a month on food stamps, two kids no car, no education, no child support I finally was able to obtain a nursing degree. Couldn't have done it without you.

Now, I live small, I'm so damn used to being poor, I like "Poor" neighborhoods, still have old cars, the suburbs make me mighty uncomfortable. I am surrounded by Immigrants, the working poor, and the up and coming young folks that are buying thier new houses in one of the last affordable neighborhoods in Seattle.

You all want to know how to make hamburger soup? Or Fry bread?

Or how about hungry kids? Project housing? High crime neighborhoods? Walk in clinics for health care? I'd be more than happy to enlighten anyone that isn't sure what "poor" is.

[AllNamesHaveBeenUsed]

83. It doesn't sound as if you were ever a "welfare queen."

I'd say you were simply a person who was in a bad situation who needed temporary help. Clearly, you were not "milking the system." You used the welfare system as a "hand up," not a hand out. I don't think anybody here would criticize your situation. Rather, I'm sure you'll be applauded.

[Marie26]

85. There's no such thing as a "welfare queen"

That was a stereotype created by Reagan to justify slashing social welfare programs. It was then eagerly adopted by middle-class & upper-class Americans because it allowed them to feel superior to poor people & less guilty about their own wealth. I think Reagan got a 20-year Republican majority out of the mythical, Cadillac-driving "welfare queens".

[AllNamesHaveBeenUsed]

87. My mistake...

There are no able-bodied people content with living off public assistance? None? :eyes:

I suppose there are no workers' compensation cheats either. (I've known both)

[Marie26]

96. That's not what I mean

Of course there are. Fraud exists in every system, wherever there's a benefit given. What bothers me is this meme of the "welfare queen." It WAS created by Ronald Reagan, who described a completely fictional woman during a debate. He cited this Chicago woman who was using 80 names, driving Cadillacs, & making $150,000 dollars a year on welfare. Only problem was - she didn't exist. Reagan made her up because it so perfectly embodies the angry white Republican's view of reality.

This phrase accomplishes a number of things in two short words: Racism (the welfare queen was inevitably black), Classism ("they're not poor, they're living like queens!"), and finally, Selfishness ("I'm not supporting those welfare queens w/ my taxes!") It exploits people's prejudices in order to create newly-minted Republicans. On the basis of Americans' anger at these "welfare queens", Reagan was able to slash funding for legal aid, low-income housing, and care for the mentally ill. Thousands of mental hospitals were closed, and the residents quickly became homeless. But at least those welfare queens can't drive Cadillacs anymore. So, in short, are there people on welfare who can work? Undoubtably. Are there "welfare queens?" No. Every time you use that term, you're buying into the Republican worldview. It's like quoting Karl Rove or something.

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-welfarequeen.htm

http://www.nhi.org/online/issues/135/reagan.html

[qanda]

101. Very good post

[bobbolink]

153. Thank you, Marie26! It's so sad that we should even *have* to

explain this here!

I'm so glad you did... you explained it better than I would have.

"Guilty about their own wealth". Right on.

"Know thyself" applies so much to these anger issues.

[ismnotwasm]

100. Longer story actually

But no, I wasn't what the common perception of "welfare queen" is. I do know what it feels like to be considered one though.

When you are on welfare you often know others in the same situation. Living in housing projects opens your eyes to the fact that most of the very poor are just trying to make it. Some lose hope, some get involved in the drugs/alcohol/violence cycle. Most work a couple of jobs and try to pull together a family life. Poverty breeds a type of dysfunction, a chain reaction that's hard to stop. The welfare system was broken when I was on it, and although I didn't agree with all of the changes to the system, I knew something had to be done.

I knew 3rd generation welfare recipients. I know a parole officer who knows 3rd generation criminals. They tied together in a combination of poverty, lack of education, ignorance and a poverty culture that is self perpetuating.

It's one of the reasons I vote, and try to stay politically involved, or a least aware, and am a proud liberal. I left a lot of people behind--so to speak-the ones that couldn't or, less often wouldn't make it.

If they don't have a voice, I'll always try to be one for them.

[sandnsea]

110. I appreciate that

The welfare system was broken in the 80's, it was harder than hell for people to get off of if they wanted their kids to have medical care and a place to live. I get really frustrated when people lump the entire welfare reform program into one anti-people DLC conspiracy. Separating welfare from medicaid was one of the best things they ever did for kids and moms. People need to remember adequate education, day care, transportation and those sorts of things were supposed to be part of welfare reform too and we have to keep on top of Congress to pay for them. It's kind of like what happened to the mentally ill in the 80s. There needed to be reform because it wasn't right all these people were put into those awful institutions, and liberals spearheaded that; but the funding for the programs to take their places never came along. Now everybody just whines about Reagan dumping the mentally ill on the streets without reminding people that community mental health programs were supposed to replace the institutions.

[Marie26]

113. And how were community mental

health programs going to take over without taxpayer funding?

[sandnsea]

118. Well first of all

Do you know there really weren't a significant number of local sliding fee community mental health offices 30 years ago? Do you know that there are now? Because I don't even want to have this conversation with someone who doesn't know the difference between the way things were in the 60's and the way they are now.

And - "but the funding for the programs to take their places never came along." Which I'll rephrase, the funding did come along, but not to the extent that it's needed to accommodate the number of mentally ill let out of the instututions.

[Marie26]

122. Right

I'm not sure why the number of sliding fee community mental health offices in the 60's is relevant. You know that that is a relatively new concept - institutionalization was the preferred option until recently. What matters isn't just the number of clinics, but the number of patients that those clinics must treat. What I was talking about, and your post refers to, is the 80's policy of "Care in the Community." Reagan spearheaded this effort when he closed mental institutions while Gov. of CA, & he carried that policy over into his presidency. The "Care in the Community" approach simply closed down institutions & sent mentally ill people out into the streets, without ever granting the funding needed to get proper out-patient care. Many (most?) ended up homeless or in US prisons. At the same time that he closed mental institutions, Reagan also specifically ended all federal funding for community mental health offices. Instead, all the money was just sent to states as block grants - where it was usually diverted to other state programs. http://www.news8austin.com/content/news_8_explores/mental_illness/?ArID=143287&SecID=320 The "Care in the Community" approach used platitudes to simply cut funds for mental health care, as the Section 8 changes did for low-income families. There may well be more comm. health centers now, but that doesn't change the fact that Reagan's mental health policies during the 80's were a disaster. I've got nothing against reform, when that reform is well-intentioned & properly funded. But IMO these Reaganite "reforms" were mostly an effort to end gov. social programs in favor of new Pentagon weapons.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0303-09.htm - 300,000 Mentally Ill in US Prisons.

http://blogcritics.org/archives/2004/06/08/203007.php - Reagan: The Bad & Ugly

[sandnsea]

125. Because mental health care changed in the 80's

And while there hasn't been enough money provided, the 80's, as you say, is when we did begin to get local mental health facilities. However, unlike what you say, they do still exist where they didn't, which is why it's important to remember the way it was before, like in the 60's.

We probably agree right down the line. We do need to stop putting the mentally ill in prison, that is a consequence of closing "insane asylums". We do need more group homes, which is interesting because I'm in a debate in another thread about how the horrible halfway houses are just another arm of the corporate prison system. I just read an article the other day about a homeless program in Denver, novel idea, give homeless people a HOME FIRST - then work to tie them into community mental health and alcoholism treatment. Renting an apartment is much cheaper than providing a shelter bed and people do better when their basic needs are met, what is that, Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs?

The point I was getting at is that we've spent the last 10 years villifying welfare reform and mental health reform - instead of reminding people of the alternatives that we were actually supporting at the time. Do you see the difference there? It's spending more time talking about child care and mental health day care than just criticizing. There were valid reasons to support reform and we need to remind people of that, and then say the job isn't done yet.

[Marie26]

145. And that reform needs resources

It's hard for mental health care to get much worse than it used to be in the early 1900's. And there's no question that many institutions were inhumane & unsafe. But the real problem is finding a viable alternative. Local mental health offices have been around since the 70's at least, but there often aren't enough to help everyone who needs it. And it was especially difficult to run one after federal funding was completely stopped in 1980. You make a good point about the homelessness problem - why not actually address the need first? I think the same goes for mental health care - why not address the need? People who are severally mentally ill need access to medication, counseling & housing. For many people, comm. health clinics & group homes are enough, but some people can't live on their own & do need in-patient hospital. Deinstitutionalization could work as a case-by-case basis, w/adequate funding for alternative treatments. But not the way Reagan did it - cutting funding for both hospitals & any alternative care. That's a sure path to failure - IMO it was intended to fail. It wasn't "reform", but simply gutting a program that was seen as useless. As Reagan said, "homelessness is a choice". If you truly believe that, why bother helping? There was a spike in homelessness in the 80's as both low-income housing & mental hospitals were shut down.

I think we agree that there's valid reasons for reform; but IMO there's invalid reasons too. I think Wisconsin is a good model for how social reform can work; the welfare system was completely overhauled w/intensive work by the Governor, increased funding & creative alternatives. I haven't seen anything similar for mental health care. We've still got 300,000+ mentally ill in US prisons - there's a need that's unmet. There needs to be more access to medication & counseling. Many institutions could be improved rather than simply shut down, but that would take an investment of time & energy that the gov. isn't willing to expend. I'm not knocking reform - just saying it should be done right, w/adequate taxpayer funding for alternative programs. That wasn't done w/mental health care in the 80's - and that was my only original point.

[sandnsea]

148. Reform was needed and should be done right

Agree completely. The only point I was trying to add is that too often the mental illness debate from the 80's completely ignores the push for reform that came from the liberal side. I can't speak for every state, but there was new federal seed money for various programs including parenting and drug and alcohol and group homes and PTSD and the like. Our overall mental health picture looks very different today than it did before reform. Private insurance didn't even pay for drug/alcohol treatment, various counselling, etc. - only paid for psychiatrists with very strict requirments. So a lot of progress has been made and I worry when younger people don't understand that it was a fight to get what we've got and why we have this instead of institutions. I also worry that young people don't understand the civil rights aspect of the mentally ill and that that is also a reason they're on the streets. Once you start passing laws that any given mentally ill person must be institutionalized, you create a beeline right back to ALL mentally ill in institutions again. So we have to be careful when we don't tell the entire story of Reagan throwing the mentally ill out into the streets. Giving the mentally ill their civil rights to live freely was a good thing, but at the same time, I kind of think that it means there will always be a certain number of mentally ill who will roam the streets because they aren't dangerous but also refuse help or medication. I really don't know what you do about that. But I think we're better off to talk about helping the mentally ill from that place than the place of institutionalization because that's an awful answer.

[Hippo_Tron]

127. Agreed, but Clinton knew that we weren't going to get those things

You are absolutely right that welfare reform is a great idea when we give people an alternative that allows them to work, which includes healthcare, day care, education, and transportation. This is why Lyndon Johnson's great society worked so well at lifting people out of poverty. It had several programs that addressed the causes of poverty. There probably were some programs that were not necessary but it was definitely the best attempt in American history to end poverty (I don't count the New Deal because the majority of Americans during the depression were poor). It would've worked even better if Johnson hadn't been fully funding the programs instead of spending money on Vietnam.

But Clinton's healthcare plan was killed two years before the Welfare Reform act was up for a vote and he knew damn well that there was zero chance of him trying to pass it again during his presidency. And while he did make improvements in day care and education spending he knew full well that it wasn't enough. With this in mind I question whether it was morally justified for him to go ahead and sign the Welfare Reform bill even though there was no funding for his other programs. Because the other programs were not in place, the end result was that people on Welfare just wound up on the streets. Because the economy was good in the late 90's this was less of the problem. Now that we have an administration that truly believes the poor can go fuck themselves, we are seeing the real effects of Welfare Reform.

Clinton should've done exactly what he did during the government shutdown. He should've put his foot down and said that he would refuse to support Welfare Reform until it had provisions that would actually help people get out of poverty. But it was an election year and white middle class voters were the target demographic. Turns out, of course, that Paul Wellstone proved once again that year that you can be right and win.

Don't get me wrong, I like Bill Clinton. I believe that he is a decent human being and was a good president. But his decision on this issue was dead wrong.

[sandnsea]

129. Yes, a lot of people got those things

I don't know what to tell you about other states, but some states did the right thing. I know young moms who actually got cars and education and real work skills. I know they got help with day care. I know even more kids whose parents would have had to quit jobs if their kids hadn't been eligible for SCHIP which was enabled when they disconnected Medicaid from welfare. The money was put in place for a lot of these programs, I don't know why some states chose not to implement the programs. Some of the new housing programs were implemented, the ones to move out of the old project style housing. There was an effort to improve the lives of moms and the real truth is that a lot of women had been asking for the exact changes that were implemented. The caps and the work requirements were the real objections and those concerns have proven to be legitimate. But most states have hardship waivers for 1 year for new moms, and 6 years if moms can't find or afford day care. So efforts have been made to consider specific situations. If case workers aren't following the law, then law suits need to be filed which is what was done back in the day that made welfare a legal entitlement. There are groups in every state that specifically watch to make sure laws are being followed, ACORN is one.

Of course now they're cutting them when there wasn't enough money to start, but Republicans would have been cutting welfare when they took power anyway. We make a mistake when we don't remember why LIBERALS wanted change, such as with the mentally ill and moms in the welfare trap. That's why Democrats really lose, we alway forget to remind people of how things were before we changed them and the whole of what we were changing things to.

[Hippo_Tron]

149. Some states did but others did not do the right thing

And part of the welfare reform bill was to leave those things up to the states. Should we have done that?

[sandnsea]

150. I just don't know

What do you do when you have some states implementing really good programs? Tell them they have to close them in order to meet an arbitrary national standard? Honestly, I just don't know the answer. Oregon implemented some really good programs with welfare reform, not perfect, but some good ones. Smaller states can provide closer oversight of people so there isn't falling through the cracks problems. Larger states that try to squoosh everybody into one particular work program, for example, are going to have people who can't handle it and end up homeless. More of a federally mandated type approach is probably better in those situations. And certainly, in our beloved states that don't believe in helping anybody at all, well yikes, but we get in trouble for stereotyping around here.

My only point is that when we talk about welfare reform we remember some of the reasons for the reform and that single moms really and truly were frustrated and felt trapped. I don't think the measurement of success ever should have been how many people were removed from welfare, but rather a new system that tracked how many people were no longer in poverty. Just like with mental health reform, Republicans are busy slashing the "reform" part and Democrats aren't standing up to say "hey, these are the reforms we all agreed to 10 and 20 years ago". Without these reform monies, we're going to have NO program for the mentally ill or pregnant teens or abused spouses AT ALL. Maybe if we had an umbrella name for it all, "New Deal Reforms" or something,to remind people that this is the same social service money that we used to spend on institutions and project housing and welfare. We still need the money, we're just spending it differently now.

[bobbolink]

157. People died because of welfare deform.

But that fact doesn't seem to matter to so many. I'm sure those dire results are still happening, but since there was no effort made to tract the results, nobody even knows who has been hurt and how badly. It's all just assumed that because they "rolls are reduced" that it "worked", so it's good.

Thanks so much for your post!

"Clinton should've done exactly what he did during the government shutdown. He should've put his foot down and said that he would refuse to support Welfare Reform until it had provisions that would actually help people get out of poverty."

Of course! That would be the true Democratic way.

What's even worse, is that I've heard him say lately that he should have done welfare deform the first thing in his presidency.

How's that for caring for the least???


"But his decision on this issue was dead wrong."

Exactly!

Dead Wrong --as in Dead People. He will one day have to answer for it.

[bobbolink]

159. I thought that would be important information to know....

:shrug:

[Red Right and BLUE]

138. Been there.

I still LOVE hamburger soup and fry bread.

[SensibleAmerican]

66. Yes, Yes, and No

The really poor (homeless) people I know are through church. Most of these people anecdotally have some type of criminal record they believe won't allow them to find a job, they usually have mental problems, and it seems they really want to find a way to bring their life back together but don't know how to.

The really rich people I know live in the richest communities in the United States. If you know many people at a big state university, one person's family is bound to be rich, especially since university atendees are biased to be upper middle class. However, most of the people's families I know are upper middle class, which we can define as the top 10 to 25% of income earners.

Coming from an upper-middle class society or an upper-class society (or a blue state), it is tough for us to envision poverty. However, you really start to see poverty if you go to a poor Red county. That's when poverty becomes real.

[AlCzervik]

70. yes i do know some "Poor people" and i come from "Poor people"

i'm not poor but i'm also not rich money wise. One of my friends struggles all the time to the point that she has asked her dad to move in with because they can't make the rent on her and her husband's salary and these are 2 hard working people. What really put them in to the bind was her medical costs and yes she has insurance but they didn't cover all of it and they ended up with over 30K in medical bills last spring and of course paying those caused them to fall behind on some other bills and it's just a vicious cycle.

[ProgressiveEconomist]

160. Kick

[THUNDER HANDS]

74. yes, I know a homeless woman

I work with her at Wal-Mart. She sleeps in her car in the Wal Mart parking lot with her dog.

[Zynx]

75. I work with poor people for my job.

I am a college student and I work a part time job in retail. I do come from money.

[Vox_Reason]

76. John Edwards is talking about this.

Is anyone listening?

[Cobalt Violet]

77. Yes.

I know a lot of poor people.

I concider myself poor because I can't afford to get health care, not without becoming homeless.

[The Backlash Cometh]

82. yep

[stepnw1f]

90. I'm Poor

my family is poor.... my friends are poor... most people are poor.

[ninkasi]

93. Yes, I know both

Some in my family would be poverty stricken were it not for the fact that we help each other through the bad times. Some poor people don't have the benefit of a close family, where it's customary to help out when people are going through a rough patch.

I've seen a few comments here about "welfare queens". I live in Texas, and believe me, the benefits the poor receive are so miserly, that I don't know how anybody could afford to do anything but scrape by. If welfare is defined as accepting taxpayer assistance, then the most flagrant "welfare cheats" are Republican politicians. Their salaries are paid by the middle and poor classes, and they vote themselves very generous salaries, and in many cases do nothing to earn such largess.

Yes, I know that the wealthy pay taxes, too, but the really wealthy are so rich that they don't feel the financial sting that average or low wage earners feel. Does anybody truly think that Tom DeLay, for example, earned a dime of taxpayer money because he did things for the good of the average citizen? No, he didn't, and in addition to getting paid by tax papers, he was also accepting bribes, trips, and money from lobbyists. If I had to say which welfare cheats do the most damage, it's the ones in the Republican party who get my vote.

[Midlodemocrat]

95. Yes. And I know some people who went from comfortably

middle class to facing foreclosure in six short months. Their child contracted Ewing's sarcoma and had to have his leg amputated. Dad is a strictly commission rep selling mortgages.

You can imagine how well he did once his child was diagnosed. They almost lost their house until some of us stepped in and took care of the bills.

They had medical insurance. They ran through their 401K, which on his $40,000 salary couldn't have been that much in the first place. They had their van repossessed-twice.

They were back and forth between here in VA and Memorial Sloan Kettering for months. Living at the Ronald McDonald House. Depending on their friends to send them care packages of Easy Mac.

The little guy is fine. Just got fitted this week for his first permanent leg. The family is still teetering on the brink of disaster.

Can you imagine how humilated that dad was when I went over there at Christmas and handed him $500 cash to pay for his sons' Christmas? Can you imagine that he probably never in a million years thought he would have to depend on the people they knew to keep a roof over their heads.

Poverty has a lot of faces. Living in a nice middle class house with the bathroom ceiling collapsing and not knowing how you are going to feed your kids is poverty, too. It has to suck.

In all honestly, if someone is scamming the system, or 'double dipping', it doesn't bother me. I figure for every cheat, there are 10 to 100 hard workers who aren't getting the help they need to get by.

[deutsey]

99. I'm from the working poor. Check out this site if you are or aren't:

http://www.poormagazine.org/

[Philosoraptor]

104. Its some consolation to know I'm not alone.

I count my blessings so to speak, but try, just try to get a long term illness and not be poor these days.

[raysr]

105. Instead of worrying

about who's getting welfare and not deserving it, why not worry about how much money the Pentagon is taking from you, or maybe how much the senators and reps are getting paid. This welfare whining pisses me off. Every system that has ever been invented has had scammers, that's just the way it is. That doesn't mean the system should be scrapped because some people scam it. What do you care if someone is getting $ and not working? Mind your own fucking business.
"Do you know any poor people?" What a stupid fucking question. Are you a fucking republican xian fascist?

[pitohui]

107. i think the poster himself is disabled and poor and afraid

i think he may feel legitimate fears because scammers ultimately reduce the sympathy of the taxpayer and this means money and medicine out of his pocket

again rather than attack the OP, i feel it is more productive to encourage him to report any scammers and let the law take its course

it is unrealistic to think the OP can do anything abt halliburton and theft of resources by people high in the pentagon, but maybe he can do something abt the small time scammer that he has witnessed in action

[raysr]

108. Maybe,

but it sounds all too familiar. I've heard that whing for years. I don't agree that nothing can be done about Pentagon spending. Awareness of these abuses and attempting to correct these injustices is what our party is about. When I see what the Senators, Reps and lobbyists get paid, then see someone ready to run to the authorities because they think that someone is getting something they aren't, it's strikes as petty to me.

[Sapphocrat]

114. self-delete

Never mind.

[nancyr]

115. Yes

Of course I am one of those "poor" people! There are a whole bunch of us living out here despite Republican claims to the contrary. I'm old and poor and on Social Security(until they manage to get rid of it, that is), and I'm about ready to explode with frustration and rage over what they've done to this country.

[Cha]

116. Yeah, me..but

that doesn't stop me from having fun or a computer. :)

I know all kinds of people.

[rucky]

119. I know quite a few poor people.

they work their asses off - not just with jobs, but with the responsibilities that wealthier folks can delegate.

[TheWraith]

121. Poor people? Sure. Rich people? Not around here.

Out in the rural parts of the country, practically everyone lives right on the edge. Here, the per capita income is $17,000. Roughly 15% of families live below the poverty line. The people who are doing well are the ones making $75k and up. An expensive house around here is $120k. A really expensive house is $180k. Even the relatively well off are barely middle class compared to other places.

[Roark]

123. Yes - and yes.

My first full time job paid under 14k a year - and I struggled to make ends meet for years.

My current job pays considerably higher and using the criteria I established back when I was making $14k a year I am now "rich".

Carefully selected education that I sacrified almost everything to finish made all the difference.

[kineneb]

124. 2 people on $14K

per year, that is. Hubby is on dialysis and we have just gone through Chapter 7. We are fortunate that we have a very small mortgage, thanks to selling out of the SF Bay Area. But that is our only advantage. I can't work because of Hubby's health care needs, but try to make a little cash teaching piano lessons.

For those who have difficulty with people "staying on the system", consider the alternative for those in need of chronic health care. I am sure many of those "welfare queens" would love to work, but if they did so, they would loose medical coverage. I know about this set of rules- I voluntarily cut back my hours after figuring out how "the system" screws those who try hard.

What is the point of earning extra money, only to have to pay it all back in health care costs? California's program for rural, medically indigent adults (CMSP) has a maximum income level of $934/month (2 people). Anything earned over that amount is "share-of-cost" and has to be paid out as a deductible before the CMSP coverage kicks in. Medi-Cal is similar, but coverage ends above $1437/month. It is simply insane.

[tyedyeto]

126. If those replying really gave a shit...

why aren't they contacting their Representatives and Senators about raising the minimum wage to something that is a livable wage?

[Red Right and BLUE]

139. What makes you think they haven't?

They just voted it down. Doesn't mean no one is speaking up about it.

[NMMNG]

128. I know plenty of poor people

Nearly all of my clients qualify as poor.

I'd be poor if I didn't work two jobs.

[EFerrari]

130. I don't understand the question. Unless you're housebound

how can you not know any poor people?

[Raksha]

131. Yes...I am one.

On edit, and after reading the previous posts, I meant yes, I am a poor person and no, not a welfare cheat. I've known people who gamed the system, though--usually drunks and/or dope addicts.

[lildreamer316]

133. Heloooooo.....

<waving>

[conflictgirl]

135. Of course I do

Despite the fact that my husband's been unemployed for almost 6 months, and even when he was working we still would have qualified for food stamp benefits (but hadn't applied for them), I wouldn't say we're poor now. We're low-income and struggling, but not poor per se. All the bills are still paid, even if it's scary sometimes. The fact that we temporarily have our kids on Medicaid would certainly fit some people's definition of poor - but I have been poorer than this and I know this isn't THAT poor.

I come from a long line of poor people and grew up in a very poor neighborhood, where there were crack houses and drive-by shootings and my car got stolen from in front of my house. That was bad. I have relatives who earn less than $10K a year, not because they won't work, but because the work isn't available. I have an uncle who lives in a one-room cabin with an outhouse - year round. My parents didn't have much, would've been considered poverty-level for much of my childhood, but at least I didn't have to worry about the power getting cut off. Most of my friends growing up were truly poor, with frequent evictions and utility shut-offs and entire days without a meal containing protein.

I wish every poor person had a better lot in life. That's why, even when we're supporting a family of five on a household income of less than $40K a year, I still donate money to food banks and other local charities. I have to do whatever I can to try to help, and I just feel thankful that I'm able to avoid having to go to the food bank myself.

(And for the record: I've only ever known one person who was seriously abusing welfare.)

[kevinbgoode]

136. I grew up as one. . and am now back in graduate school

and, by the time I pay the government back for being here, I expect to be one the rest of my life - but happy.

This might sound strange, but, after downsizing in my middle years to go back to school, I was actually happier when I finally adjusted to the change. I used to live in a three bedroom/two bath condo with my partner in Buckhead (Atlanta). . .now I'm in a tiny one bedroom student apartment with painted concrete block walls. . .and I like it. I'm alone again, and the much smaller space is much less lonely. I can clean a lot quicker, have less to maintain, and do without a lot of newer things (like a cellphone) so I don't feel like I live in poverty, even though it's hard to save any money beyond a spare change jar.

I do understand there is a difference between slumming it at a university and living poor your entire life. I grew up doing without - nine kids and my father was a painter/paperhanger - we usually did without any extras at all. But it wasn't a crappy childhood at all, and I think that experience helps me so much today.

I've seen a lot of folks who struggle to try to make little gains, or to give their children a good chance at a future. Many are miserable in that struggle - some celebrate their lives and seem happy with who and where they are, and look at the rich as "the great beyond" to just dream about winning the lottery or sometimes just getting a vacation and not having to worry about paying the bills every month. There is one thing I'd like to say about being poor though - some of those people have the most honest, sincere values about themselves and their fellow man. I was raised not to be very selfish - hell, you can't in a home with nine kids and little income. I had to teach myself that I had the right to be selfish at all as an adult. So a lot of poor people can be very giving, sharing people. And there are some who are just miserable and feel like they have lost every minute of the day. Those are the ones that worry me the most - the people who can see themselves becoming someone and yet have no avenue to realize those dreams nor any understanding of how to get there. In many respects, that is where our educational system fails poor students. We don't take the time to realize they need direction because they have no resources to get across that bridge on their own.

[Saphire]

141. Ummmm....ME!

[seabeyond]

146. i know poor people, i have been poor people, i know rich people

i am comfortable people at this time in my life.

when i was poor people i didnt feel less or a need for anyone to feel sorry for me. i can see ways for poor people i know today to make situation better, and then i see poor people today who live in grace, even though they are poor people. there are rich people i wouldnt change places with for anything in the world. though they dont have the stress of finance, they have truly fucked up lives that no way i would want to live.

and then there is me, living in comfort. not having to stress about money. that is the best. but then it didnt matter if i had money or not, i adapted and didnt stress over finance. even poor. expenses just a lot less.

happiness, way of life, joy has to do with the individual person. it isnt indicitive of the amount of money one has, from what i have seen in life

[5thJames]

147. depends on what you mean by "poor"...

OK, I'm not "poor", especially by world-wide standards of poor. I have a lot of nice stuff (and am extremely rich in this sense): a good place to live in, lots of great food, excellent health and health care, excellent friends and family, hope for a future, a peaceful and secure neighborhood, a good job.

But if you're talking poor monetarily, then yes, in one sense. That is, that my monthly expenses typically use up all of my income. I've been struggling financially for years, so in that sense I'm "poor", though I use that word lightly.

As for other people I know, it depends on what you consider poor. I have seen and talked with several homeless people. I've taken them to eat, to the hospital, or to some other location. They are poor. I know several single mothers who struggle to make ends meet, and who are on some kind of public assisstance, such as WIC or food stamps. Are people like them considered poor, even though they drive a car, have jobs, have health care, food to eat, and a place to live?

[Critters2]

152. I know some, but I fear I run in circles where they're not welcome

I just resigned my membership in the American Association of University Women, because AAUW claims it works for the education of all women, but only women with college degrees can join. I don't believe you can help all women get an education, if ALL WOMEN aren't included in the conversation. I'd like to hear from women without a BA or BS what's kept them from getting one.

I've decided not to belong to orgs that are elitist.

[ChiciB1]

154. In The Past Year I Lent Money To Two Families....

just to give them a leg up & NO, I'm not rich but gave them enough to tide them over for a couple of month's each! They're back in worse shape now! I can't do anymore and they keep calling because they're DESPERATE!!!

I fell like an ASS!

[ChiciB1]

156. I Mean FEEL Like An ASS!! n/t

[leftchick]

155. I know a homeless person

well, sort of. He is mentally ill, I suspect schizophrenia, and pretty much lives in a local park. I stop every once in a while and give him grocery cards from where I have seen him shop. There was a story in the local paper about him and it is quite a sad tale. I think of him every day. :(

[fordnut]

158. poor peple

Yeah me everytime I get ahead my insurance goes up and they raise fuel so I have to use credit cards just to make up the difference,itt`s a vicious cycle.

[demgurl]

161. Yes, I do know poor people.

I know a preachers wife who refuses to go on welfare and so she coupons. (that is how I met her) They do depend on a government health plan for her kids and they do what they can to make ends meet but it is hard for them.

One of my best friends is poor. Before I met her she went from church to church begging for toilet paper so they could have some since food stamps would not get that for them. I help her as much as I can and understanding pride, I offer her husband jobs around our house that my husband and I just can not do. He came by this morning and installed a sink for us.

My friend's son went to college this past year and applied for financial aid. They had to provide a financial statement to make sure the school knew he needed the aid. Her son was blown away by the fact that they own nothing and have no savings accounts or investments. She explained to him that that is why she could not keep all his favorite foods in the house - they could not afford it. He was blown away and a new respect for his parents and how they even made ends meet.

But you know what? That is one of the most giving people I know. We were in worse shape than they were for a while. I had to end a phone conversation so I could get to a check cashing place before it closed and she insisted that I go to their house instead. She said those places were too expensive and they had a week or so before their mortgage was due.

We are fine now. We are not rich but we are not where we were about 4 years ago when we were making contingency plans because of us possibly having our house foreclosed. Thank God we have never had to go hungry or without health and beauty stuff like soap and shampoo. My couponing has always allowed me to have a huge stockpile of these things.

I think my mother is rich (or thinks she is) and I know my Dad is well off. Dad paid for his house in cash and will not buy anything if he can not pay for it outright. I guess I could have had a pretty good life if it were not for my principles. I have divorced myself from both of these people and only someone who is unstable would keep associating with people who have beaten you up or stolen thousands of dollars of your money. (yes, each of my parents did one of these actions!) If my mother had not embezzled my money then I would be able to have my house paid off and have stability today. You have to feel sorry for someone who values money that much.