I never understood why folks get so nuts about sports.

[lectrobyte]

Chomsky, on the other hand, seems to have something figured out:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4483023443488282779&q=chomsky

[Swamp Rat]

1. Luv it!

:D

[gatorboy]

2. Me? I don't get KISS fans. n/t

[rinsd]

25. LOL....now the KISS Army will have to target you for conversion (nt)

[unpossibles]

3. I'd have to agree with him

although I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with any diversion or hobby, but... the incredible fanaticism I've seen from some sports fans is incredible, such as supporters of a team/city actually throwing things at the supporter of another team/city. It always struck me as a microcosm of a feudal system or perhaps international relations, and as another simultaneous uniter/divider of people, a way to point at your fellow human and see them as "friend" or "foe"

[ProfessorGAC]

4. How About People Throwing Beer Bottles At Jeff Gordon?

That race track is about 10 miles from my house. I was so proud of my local folks when they threw beer bottles at a guy still driving 80mph.
The Professor

[Swamp Rat]

6. Ever been to a soccer game in Europe?

Throwing bottles is par for the course. :eyes:

[ProfessorGAC]

7. Yeah, I Know

And yes, i went to a game between Juventus and AC Milan back in the mid-90's. Pretty intense fandom, there.

But, i don't live there. I live right here, and those bottle throwers were my neighbors! I was emabarassed Sunday. I might even know some of those buffoons, personally!
The Professor

[Swamp Rat]

8. Is the bottle-throwing there an isolated incident?

I hope they catch the criminals who did it because they not only jeopardized the lives of the drivers, but also the audience, some of whom were children.

[ProfessorGAC]

9. Well, Look Who They Threw Them At

There is a weird "Gordon Hatin'" thing among a lot of NASCAR fans. So, when he won the race, they hated that, and they already hate him. There were LOTS of bottles. I doubt they will ever punish the perps. Probably too many to identify. Even the race announcers were bashing the fans who threw the bottles.
The Professor

[raccoon]

5. I never understood that either. Must read MANUFACTURING CONSENT. nt

[sendero]

10. I'm a longstanding fan of Chomsky and his ideas..

... but I'm not sure I understand what he's saying here.

That sports and their mass appeal is somehow coordinated by the "government" to help mold good little submissive minds? Really?

I enjoy a game here and there, mostly playoffs, but I've never been a big sports fan. But I can kind of understand how people get wrapped up in it - "pop" music (and I used the term loosely) is my substitute for sports. I know who played bass for such and such and what band he joined afterward. I know what year all my favorite albums/CDs came out, and all the folks who were involved. I long ago realized that my music interest was roughly equivalent to others' sports interest.

Ok, here's my point. Nobody is influencing me to like this crap, I just like it, I derive immense pleasure from listening. And I think it's the same for sports, nobody has to force anyone to get into this, they just do. And of course the franchises are all too happy to exploit that interest for the maximun financial gain.

Am I missing his point somehow??

[lectrobyte]

11. He does mention high school sports. And I'm living in a city in

the south that spent a shitload of money to get a hockey team, of all things. I think his point was that in school at least, sports function as something much as you describe.

[sendero]

13. Yes...

.. I live in Texas and there is no question at all that a disproportionate amount of money is spent on high school sports here, especially for football.

But the question is, where is the impetus for that attention coming from? As far as I can tell, it is the parents who want this. Athletics are seriously supported, academics are not.

I think my point is that while I agree that what Chomsky describes is happening, I think it is just complacent American masses who choose to spend all their free time focusing on entertainment rather than paying attention to what their leaders are up to.

[MindPilot]

15. Most DUers would probably fit with how I describe myself:

"I follow politics like most guys follow sports."

[sendero]

18. The country...

... could use a lot more people like you.

I follow politics, but not to the level that many here do. And I come here to get a distillation of thier insights.

[cobalt1999]

16. ...unless I don't understand, I'm not buying his point either.

There have been a lot of books written about fan behavior all the way back to Roman writers wondering why people are so obsessed up in their local chariot racing teams. IMHO, it's part of our makeup as humans more than some government attempt at "indoctrination".

Also, is he arguing that we can have NO diversions or pointless activities because it us "keeps them from thinking about things that matter". Who can think about things that matter 24/7? Does Chomsky have no hobbies or sports or go to movies?

I think he needs to define his point and construct a better argument to support it.

[walldude]

28. I too have substituted music and the arts for a sports mentality

and no one forced me either. What I see though is schools losing funding for programs like music and band and art while sports always seems to have enough money. I don't believe anyone is being forced but I do believe people are manipulated into the whole sports "us vs them" mentality. With the right wing it's always about competition, who's better, who's the winner. I think thats why you find liberals drawn to the arts, it's about creating joy not competing for hero status.

[theboss]

33. So...explain Bill Bradley

This is such a narrow-minded spouting of stereotypes.

[RagingInMiami]

12. People go nuts over sports

Because they want bragging rights. My team beat your team. My high school is better than your high school. My alma mater is better than your alma mater. My city is better than your city (Let me pause here to congratulate the Miami Heat as the 2006 NBA World Champions).

Sports also offers a release for many Americans, mostly men, who are caught up in the daily grind of life; the bills, the obnoxious boss, the nagging wife, the screaming kids, etc.

Women usually find their own releases, such as shopping or exercise.

So sports usually becomes an extension of the fan who goes out and buys paraphernalia to show his colors. When they lose, he loses. And he is depressed.

But if his NFL team wins on Sunday, then the rest of the work week goes by much smoother. If both his NCAA and NFL team win that weekend, then it goes by even smoother.

After all, for a few days after that game, the fan feels more powerful than he really is.

[MindPilot]

14. I think it starts in the schools

As a kid, I recall if you were male and did not excel at sports, you were an outcast. Additionally the kids who were good at sports were granted special privileges; they got better grades with less work, their infractions--especially if it involved bullying--were completely overlooked. And of course the girls would just swoon over a guy who could hit a ball with a stick, but wouldn't give the guy with the slide rule a second look except to set him up for the football champ to administer a beating.

In case you hadn't noticed, school was not the most pleasant period in my life.

[H2O Man]

17. It is in

our genes.

Personally, I think that boxing is the most fascinating of sports. The heavyweight champions almost all stand out as important reflections of their times.

[sendero]

19. It's funny..

... intellectually, I find boxing totally repellent. But instinctually, viscerally, it is hard to turn away from.

[MindPilot]

20. Now see, I simply can't get my head around that idea.

People beating each other into unconsciousness is legitimized as a "sport". I don't get how that kind of violence is OK; boxing is the only sport where the object of the "game" is to permanently injure or even kill your opponent. I would have hoped that we would have evolved beyond that.

edit: spelling

[Mythsaje]

27. Beating them into unconsciousness isn't the goal...

I used to follow boxing, for a brief period of time. I no longer do. But my long-standing interest in the martial arts leads me to have a considered view of the nature of violence.

Violence, as such, isn't inherently bad, IMO, but it's more how it's channeled. If you're willing and able to use violence to counter other violence directed at you or yours, it's a legitimate use of it.

The issue I have with the way it's channeled these days is that not enough people understand when and where it's appropriate, and that leads to a lot of stupidity in terms of rooting for violence when it should be reviled instead.

[kath]

21. Key points here are: "training in irrational jingoism" and

"irrational attitudes of submission to authority".

Even if the government, per se, is not behind the promotion of sports mania, the inculcation of these attitudes certainly does serve the interests of the power elite.

Along with TV in general, helps to keep the sheeple narcotized.

[bloom]

22. "irrational attitudes of submission to authority"

Plus the US vs. THEM tribalism of it all. Perfect for when the leaders want the people to go to war.

Sports does seem to be a religion for some people - an opiate of the masses.

[kath]

23. Exactamundo on all points, bloom.

[kath]

24. Another interesting aspect of sports culture in this country is discussed

in the book "The Stronger Women Get, the More Men Love Football".

Haven't read it yet, but sounds intriguing...

[rinsd]

26. Geez talk about reliving your high school days....get over it Choms!

[FrankBooth]

29. Nonsense

I never understood why folks get so nuts about world music, broadway plays or kung-fu movies, but I try not to pigeonhole everyone who enjoys those things. Sports have been around as long as there has been civillization, I'd argue sports are part of the psychological makeup of humanity, rightly or wrongly. I'll agree that the marketing of sports in the US & Europe has reached a sickening nadir, but I'd say that is more symptomatic of Western capitalism than the sports themselves. I think marketing itself has reached a sickening nadir. Sports, in and of themselves, are beautiful, inspiring and fundamentally human. To simply dismiss sports as some tool to brainwash the youth of the world is absurd nonsense.

[AirAmFan]

30. IMO its a propaganda-induced passionate embrace of conformity,

peer-pressure run amok. Repetition is the key to effective propaganda. Jacques Ellul, French philosopher-sociologist of the 50s and 60s, wrote that the mass media, mass spectator sports, and other mass infotainment reinforce the power of society and its institutions over individualism. You don't bring a book or wear your Red Sox jersey when you sit in the bleachers at Wrigley Field.

You collectively shake your heads and wag your fingers at the antics of nonconformist athletes like Dennis Rodman or Barry Bonds. Think of the endorsement millions they could have made had they just "gone along with the program".

[theboss]

31. Rodman made 10X more money than he ever would have otherwise

If Rodman was a quiet, unassuming guy who just got 14 rebounds a game, no one would remember his name. He died his hair, tatooed himself, and wore dresses to become a multi-media superstar.

I love people who don't watch, play, or care about sports trying to explain sports. It would be like me trying to explain what makes a great opera.

[Raydawg1234]

32. Rooting for your team, there is a "manifest destiny" complex to it

[Lydia Leftcoast]

34. I think he's right on

Sports sap a lot of intellectual energy and time that COULD be devoted to other things, and our society specifically encourages sports obsession.

People won't riot about stolen elections or torture of prisoners or any of the other atrocities of this administration, but they'll take to the streets if their team wins the Super Bowl.

People who don't know who their own Senators are can give you a play by play description of the most recent World Series.

People who "don't have time" to read can watch sports channels all weekend.

School kids, especially in the suburbs, are practically forced to be on sports teams, but no one seems as interested in getting them involved in music, theater, visual art, or creative writing to balance the mindless physicality (and don't give me that crap about how much brain power it requires to put together a football play) of sports with the right brain/left brain exercise of participating in the arts. We can't have the kids THINKING too much. They might become geeks and nerds. They might even start QUESTIONING the dominant commercial culture.

Cities that don't have adequate schools, libraries, parks, streets, transit, or other infrastructure will devote tax dollars to sports stadiums as corporate welfare for the billionaire team owners, and a goodly percentage of Americans think that's wonderful. If you question the wisdom of public subsidies for sports teams, you're told that "sports teams are a major contributor to the quality of life." (Oh, I guess we can have constantly shrinking school budgets, libraries open only three days a week, parks that could use a little maintenance, a pathetic transit system, and streets full of unrepaired pot holes--all true in Minneaplis, by the way-- but as long as we have major league sports, we'll have a "high quality of life.")

I'll admit to some resentments from my school years. The jocks and cheerleaders (there were no girls' teams then) acted like and were treated like the gods and goddesses of the student body, and they tormented not only the intellectual kids but also the low-income kids and the disabled kids, and the teachers either looked the other way or actually encouraged their bullying.

Meanwhile, our phy. ed. classes were all geared toward the natural athletes, and those of us who couldn't keep up were not helped to become more physically fit--no, we were humiliated by always being the last chosen for the team. The boys had it even worse: the boys who came in last running around the track at the beginning of the class were made to duckwalk around the track.

I was in college before I learned that it is possible to change one's level of physical fitness, and it wasn't team sports that did it. It was a phy. ed. teacher making up an individual exercise plan for each of the students in the class and actually letting us experience growing stronger by the week.

I still hate team sports and the mindless "Hurray for our side, kill the other guys" spirit that it encourages.

I actually like to watch many individual sports, such as track and field, swimming, gymnastics, and both figure and speed skating.

But to let your whole mood depend on whether "your" team (a bunch of overpaid millionaires who would leave your city in a second if another city paid them more) wins means that you've succumbed to the brainwashing that the Sports Religion encourages.

[MindPilot]

35. Sounds like you and I went to the same school...

Totally excellent rant! :applause:

[bloom]

36. good rant. nt