Barbaro not doing well.

[benburch]

Laminitis on his left hind foot. Said to be life-threatening.

Again, I simply do not think it is a mercy to try to save a horse with a broken leg. The poor animal cannot possibly understand why all these uncomfortable and painful procedures are being done to him, or why his movements are being restricted, and the chances of success are STILL so small in spite of advances and the best veterinary care, which he is getting, that it is cruelty to even try.

[jobycom]

1. Well, since we can't ask him his opinion

we may as well try to save him. The basic survival instinct is in all life forms, there's no reason to believe he would want to die, whatever "want" might mean for a horse.

[Virginia Dare]

2. It is selfishness on the part of the owners...

he's worth alot of money, so they figured they would try to recoup some of it through siring him. All about the money as usual. The irony is they've probably paid a fortune to try and save him, and it will apparently be all for naught.

[benburch]

4. I think they really love him.

I think in this case it goes way beyond the stud fees.

[Virginia Dare]

11. Perhaps you're right...

and I hope you are, but the last thing that I would allow for an animal that I loved would be suffering. Maybe the vets really thought they could save him, who knows?

[benburch]

16. I think they did think they could.

They HAVE saved other horses. And love blinds you. I've gone way too far trying to save cats I loved when in retrospect putting them down, or giving them painkillers until nature did it might have been best.

[Virginia Dare]

19. I hear you....

it's one of the hardest decisions you'll ever make, especially if you're an animal lover!

Perhaps I'm too hasty to judge, but multi-million dollar horses are a little different than pet cats and dogs, having said that, I have no doubt they love him just the same.

[Smooth Operator]

50. as much as you can love

an animal you make run around a track with a little human on his back and who whips him to make him run faster.

[Rosemary2205]

13. I highly doubt it

His chance of recovery was so small from the outset and the cost for all this is so enormous that no one would make this choice on pure economics.

[Virginia Dare]

17. I wonder why they put him through it then..

if his chance of recovery was so small. It's still selfishness, no matter what the reason. Granted, it's easy for me to make that judgement sitting on the outside. It's hard to lose an animal that you've invested so much in, financially and emotionally.

[Rosemary2205]

24. I think it's human nature

when you love something or someone and the unthinkable happens and some doctor pokes his chest out and says "I am the master" then it's just so easy to believe.

[Arkansas Granny]

34. I've never owned a horse, but I was raised around livestock.

If there is a chance of recovery in a valuable animal, you do what you can to save it even if some of the treatments may be painful. You don't put them down unless and until that is the last resort. I don't think this is selfish because after the treatment the animal may still have many good years of life. In Barbaro's case, if he recovers, he will spend the rest of his days in the best pasture, enjoying the best of care and feeding and the company of many young females. I think it's too soon to give up on him yet. If it gets to the point where treatment will only prolong pain and there is no chance of recovery then putting them down is the humane thing to do.

[HamdenRice]

42. It is not always "humane" to put down an animal because it is in pain

As one poster put it, animals can feel many feelings and emotions, such as pain, love, anger and so forth. But one thing that I have found that animals seem not to experience is the anguish associated with pain.

I have never owned a horse (although I was around one on my grandmother's farm when I was very little), but have almost always had one or more cats or dogs. I have also gone through excruciatingly painful back surgery, and have nursed animals that were very sick or in pain.

When I had my back surgery, I read an incredibly useful book about back pain by an MD. He said that there are two components to what we humans experience as medical pain -- physical pain and anguish. He argued, and it worked for me, that a person experiencing a painful medical condition should try to distinguish between pain and anguish. In fact, what causes the most stress among patients is anguish, not physical pain.

For example, let's say you fall off your bicycle and have a really nasty gash on your knee. Two things happen. First there is the physical pain of the wound. But you also look at the wound and think, gosh that's nasty. You have an immediate feeling of revulsion. Most people freak out at the sight of blood and gore. In most cases, the pain of that kind of wound is quite minor, but the mental anguish is what causes most people to scream and cry about such a wound.

With chronic back pain, a lot of the stress is similarly the mental concern: Am I going to be disabled? Is this distracting me from work/family? Is the pain ever going to end? This doctor recommended trying to feel your physical pain, take note of it and what your body is trying to tell you, and separate out the anguish, which you can manage through your thoughts. It worked for me tremendously.

What does this have to do with animals? Animals undergoing medical procedures don't really have the ability to think (worry) about the future. I have noticed nursing sick and wounded animals that they experience pain but not anguish.

Benburch wrote in the OP:

"The poor animal cannot possibly understand why all these uncomfortable and painful procedures are being done to him, or why his movements are being restricted,..."

But that's exactly why it is not cruel to allow an animal to experience this pain if it may save his life. He doesn't know that he may be a "lame horse". He doesn't understand that this pain may last for a year rather than for the rest of the day. He is experiencing pain and discomfort and restrictions of his mobility, but does not have the reason to experience the worry and anguish that go with it.

It is for this reason, I have found, that animals have tremendous stoicism in the face of wounds, operations and sickness. Obviously I am not advocating that we be cruel to animals and let them experience unnecessary pain.

But I do believe that we often "put down" animals because of the anguish we feel, rather than the pain the animal feels -- eg, I would not find it worth living as a lame horse, so I'd rather put him down. But if you look at dogs that have suffered hind quarters paralysis, most seem perfectly happy. They don't know that they look bad. They adjust perfectly well to doggy wheelchairs and feel less anguish about it than wheel chair bound people.

All this is to say that I really think we put down animals prematurely because of our own anguish and don't look at it from the perspective of the animal.

My guess is that if the operation is successful and Barbaro lives, he will be perfectly content living the rest of his life at pasture being a sperm donor and the temporary pain of these surgeries will be completely forgotten.

[saltpoint]

3. 'Appreciate the update, benburch, even if the news is sad.

In the blur of dislocation and violence in the news these last several days, I had hoped that there could be some good news about this horse.

It would have been something positive in the headlines instead of all-aggression by Bush all the time.

[leftchick]

5. well he is worth a lot of money

obviously that means more to his owners than the humane treatment of animals.

[benburch]

8. I'm not so sure.

I think they really love him and love blinds you sometimes.

[leftchick]

21. perhaps

I have had to put animals to sleep before. When they are clearly suffering it is time no matter how hard it is for you. :(

[Pool Hall Ace]

6. Darnit. I'm sorry to hear that.

I am cheering for this horse.

[patcox2]

7. Should I be emotionally involved with this horse because it ran fast?

Like, is anyone supposed to care?

[benburch]

9. No...

...because he is a beautiful animal, and because horses are usually better souls than most people.

[bdamomma]

12. in these days , that is so true

well whatever happens I hope he does not suffer. :-(

[LaurenG]

14. Touche

love makes us all go the extra mile. If we just let it in we'd all be better off. It sounds like the owners have made the choices they have based on love. I hope that they can enjoy each others company for many years to come.

[mtnester]

25. When I was growing up, showing/training horses & living day to day

with them from the time I was 4 years old, I have noticed, and will share:

A horse is the only animal, that if asked by a human, will comply with even the most unreasonable of commands, to even the point of death (i.e. a horse will literally run themselves to death if asked).

A horse will also (lovely, stupid things that they are) eat themselves to death if allowed to.

Most horses have a sneaky sense of humor, and moods that are varied and complex. (lovely, smart things that they are)

Horses will ask for comfort from humans in many ways, and they are fairly obvious.

They can be sunshine one minute, and stubborn as hell the next. Individual animals suffer from individual fears, and many times, they simply cannot overcome them no matter how patient you are.

A horse will play with you...but ONLY if they themselves are in the mood...a horse will also play practical jokes on you. He will also bite you because you are bothering him (or, if presented with your unguarded behind, just because they cannot resist)

Some horses are specialists...some are master locksmiths! Using only their mouths!

I loved my horses, all of them. They loved me, hated me, fought with me, rode with me, played with me, hurt me, and one time saved me. I would have done anything, within my power, to return that favor, if possible.

[Debau2005]

29. Well said! nt

[benburch]

30. I loved my horses.

I grew up on a farmette where we had several acres fenced in and an old dairy barn. We had horses and goats as pets.

[mtnester]

33. They are, in a nutshell, 2 year olds

no matter their age...

I only had to strike one animal ever, and that was when he got our and made his way to the feed....it is so dangerous to give a horse any leeway in this matter, he would not budge, and there was no way I was going to let him sit there and gorge until he died of colic. So he got the lead strap a couple of times, some loud yelling and pushing by me, and then I put him back in his stall, providing scratches in just the right places.

One time, this same particular animal, when I was leading them to pasture (before we made a fenced run to it), and it was cold and they all had been penned up for awhile and feeling extra frisky..I KNEW he was going to run and buck for joy when I let him loose into pasture, and was prepared for that, but, I simply (slow human) was unable to get out of the way in time and caught a double hoof kick, glancing, off the side of my right hip, and sailed about 10 feet, landing in a pile.

While sitting there, getting my wind, wondering if my hip was broken, doing a full body check to see if I was really OK or hurt badly, I noticed that the minute he realized his feet caught me, he stopped immediately, eyes wide, came over to me, and kept blowing in my face until I was able to get up. It apparently scared the bejeezuz out of him, and he stayed right there with me, warming me with his breath, nudging me, until I could stand.

I was OK, just NO AIR :)

[Debau2005]

35. Mine always kicks up his heels

when he goes from his stall to the pasture. We do have a run through, so we don't have to lead him. I have been thrown, stepped on, and squeezed against the wall, but not kicked. Yikes...

I agress most are caring compassionate creatures that truly care about your well being. Mine nuzzled me after we "parted" ways. He went one way, and I went the other. I don't hit the ground as easily as I did in my childhood! ;)

[CottonBear]

37. I completely agree with you.

Horses are complex creatures with a wide variety of emotions and personalities and behaviors.

They don't have to do anything for us yet they do. I'm always amazed by them and I've always loved them. :)

[jedicord]

41. Beautifully said. I too, was saved by a horse.

We were riding on a mountain in Wyoming, he slipped, hitting his head on the ground and I fell over him. I almost fell down the side of the mountain but he used his head to prop me up so I could get back on the trail.

I was quite shaken, he just nosed me until I could get back in the saddle. Something I will never forget.

BTW, this was a trail horse I had only ridden for a week. Within that week we became best friends. He'd whinny and bounce his head when he saw me coming.:pals:

[frankly_fedup2]

31. I agree with that. Most animals have the cognitive abilities of a 2-year-

old child. Of course, there are no language skills; however, they feel love, fear, pain (unfortunately like we all do at times), hunger, and can reason to a certain extent. I feel so sorry for the horse. I don't know that much about them; however, I heard as long as it didn't get an infection that the bone would mend. Let's hope this is what is happening and that the animal is getting something to relax its muscles as well as the pain with physical therapy. Also, if they were only going to use the animal to sire out, they could be collecting the sperm now. They don't collect it from horses the way they do cows. They get underneath the horse and sexually arouse it like a man would do to himself. Can you imagine doing that to a horse???? Poor animals cannot even have physical contact with each other to procreate.

I saw something advertised yesterday on the History Channel and it was saying something about the mystery surrounding Secretariat's death. I remember watching that horse when I was young win the triple crown. Anyone know the story? Anyone care?

[CottonBear]

36. Thoroughbreds must be bred by live cover not AI. It's a Jockey Club rule.

There are none and never have been any Thoroughbreds in the history of the breed who have been concieved in any other way but live cover.

AI = artificial insemination.

[Corgigal]

51. I care about secretariat

He didn't have a mystery surrounding his death. You might be thinking about Alydar.

Info on what happen to Secretariat is below;

In the fall of 1989, Secretariat was afflicted with laminitis, a painful and incurable hoof condition. His condition failed to improve, and he was euthanized on October 4. He is buried at Claiborne Farm in Paris, Kentucky. In death, he received the ultimate honor for a horse—he was buried whole.

http://experts.about.com/e/s/se/Secretariat_(racehorse).htm


Now to the mystery of Alydar;

http://web.archive.org/web/20050217225950/http://www.texasmonthly.com/mag/issues/2001-06-01/feature4.php

[aaronbees]

52. Thank you for saying that ....

So true on horse's souls ... Barbaro's is as wide as the ocean, I think.

:grouphug:

To my way of thinking it's Barbaro himself who will make or indicate the final call by his body language, the light or lack of it in his eyes, and his ability to weather the pain he's feeling now and keep living and eating and being the Bobby his friends know. It's important to remember that up until last week, Barbaro's life was comfortable and relatively pain-free; even now, he's having many good days and is showing that he wants to live. I don't find it cruel at all the route the Jacksons and New Bolton vets are taking (and agree with HamdenRice's post above). If you read between the lines of Richardson's comments, I think he's essentially saying they'll follow Barbaro's lead as to whether or not to continue by monitoring this magnificent colt's behavior.

Barbaro's a homebred, and the Jacksons have raised him since he was a young sprout gambolling across the pasture ... they'll do right by him and will make a decision that's best for Barbaro. Honestly, breeding and money concerns must be the farthest thing from their minds, since with such an injury and weak hind legs a life at stud is a most uncertain prospect. I've seen some wild conjecture on DU from people who know zilch about this horse or his connections and am, frankly, just sick of it.

I thought it was quite telling that, at the end of the press conference, Dr. Richardson said if you looked at Barbaro now, it would be hard to put him down.

But I think it's plain as day that if it's best for Barbaro, they'll do it.

Here's hoping the healing wins the race, though.

:hug:

[acmejack]

10. Does it bother you that others might?

To the point you feel compelled to snark about it? Glimmer upon us...

[Debau2005]

15. Laminitis is not necessarily life threatening

My horse foundered and developed laminitis 2 years ago. He recovered quite well and can still be ridden. We have to watch his food and make sure he does not get an over load of carbohydrates. We strictly monitor his grazing and watch his weight.

Do you have a link that describes why they think this laminitis is life-threatening?

[benburch]

18. No link. This was on the radio.

They described it as life-threatening.

[Debau2005]

22. Here is a link

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/news/story?id=2517953

Laminitis is a strange thing and is widely studied to find the causes and prevention. It could be that spending the money and effort to save him will benefit every horse owner who will face this in the future.

[Corgigal]

20. might try this link

http://www.timwoolleyracing.com/

Lots of information there. When you can, tell us what you think.

[Debau2005]

26. Thanks for that link!

I'll keep watching for news. Nothing specific as of yet. I doubt they will get too specific, I did read on another site, that it had spread to his uninjured leg. That would be bad.

The Laminitis my horse fought was not compounded with all of the other problems that Barbaro has. So this is definitely more serious then the average horse owner faces.

[Virginia Dare]

23. Self-delete--already answered

[petersjo02]

27. On the other hand,

we have had two horses die from complications of laminitis. With both, we worked literally for months to save them. Too much infection, too much damage, too much pain. Both, however, retained a will to live, judging from the fight they put forth, and we felt we owed them a chance to beat it. Have had other horses who have had laminitis, have recovered, and are sound today. Too many variables to have it be any more than 50%-50%. The owners will know when it is time to let him go, if it comes to that.

Now if the snarks would just keep their hateful opinions to themselves, instead of trying so hard to make the rest of us feel guilty because we feel some measure of sympathy about this tragedy, that would be great. We realize the snark doesn't care about much of anything beyond 3 feet from his/her own nose. A very narrow view about the value of ALL life, not just human.

[Virginia Dare]

38. Thanks for your insight....

sorry about the painful loss of your beautiful horses, and welcome to DU from a fellow animal lover!



:toast:

[The Stranger]

28. And he never lost a race -- never came in second to any other horse.

[SlipperySlope]

32. Poor thing - N/T

[Gabi Hayes]

39. sweet! when's the next

bullfight?

if that damn horse didn't want to break his leg, why did he choose to be a racer?

serves him right

[Debau2005]

40. Please tell me you forgot the sarcasm smilie! nt

[kskiska]

43. The owners are solely concerned with his comfort

From Tim Woolley:

The focus of the press conference was the new, significant problem of laminitis in the left hind foot. No doubt this will be widely covered by all the media. Barbaro's current state is extremely serious however, he does remain comfortable. They will continue to work around the clock to try to overcome this setback as long as he remains comfortable. One issue that Dr. Richardson emphasized was that the Jacksons will not tolerate any discomfort for Barbaro.

http://www.timwoolleyracing.com/news/2006/07/barbaro_updates_4.php

[bsartist]

44. Seabiscuit re-enactment nonsense

Seabiscuit was a very popular and wonderful movie, but our society is doing what it does best - feed on itself...we're trying to re-enact our romantic past because our present is so unbelievably depressing.

[benburch]

45. I'm not sure at all that I understand your comment.

What are you trying to say? That we ought to give up on horses because the world is an evil place?

[bsartist]

46. You know

Nothing against horses, but I just finished reading 'Seabiscuit,' and I guess I just don't buy the whole 'inspiring horse' thing anymore. After thinking about it quite a bit, I've concluded this: It's a horse. It runs. That's what it does. Some have better genes than others. Some are eventually bought by rich owners and given the best of everything, and run really fast and win a lot of money for their owners. There's nothing special about it. It's utterly predictable.

[benburch]

47. You've never known one.

Or you'd understand the fuss on the part of we horse people. And none of my horses ever cost more than $1000, so that hardly makes me a rich horse owner.

[Bridget Burke]

48. Some of the people on this thread are horse owners.

They probably have a different viewpoint than someone who just read a book.

I think your name explains where you're coming from.

[bsartist]

49. I'm sorry

I don't mean to offend your love of horses, I love horses too. They're great.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lonestarnot]

54. It is disgusting what they are doing to that poor creature.

[WildEyedLiberal]

55. Trying to save his life?

How disgusting. :sarcasm:

[lonestarnot]

56. Race horses must not be your high point.