Is Israel a Pawn of the United States?

[bryant69]

I've read a couple of posts that seemed to indicate this, but I might have misread them. What are your thoughts?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Generic Other]

1. It's a symbiotic relationship

but mostly we are the pawns. Our obsession with war in the ME threatens to destroy us all.

[Ian David]

2. Israel is America's sacrificial lamb to bring forth The Second Coming n/t

[Jacobin]

3. Its the other way around

[chookie]

10. I agree

I'm so old I remember when a "proxy war" meant a small country fighting for the interests of a major, powerful country.

However fervent they are, they still aren't open about it, because they know if they are, the American public will reject it. So -- fighting for Israel is translated into the code words "protecting our allies", and "upholding democracy" is also code words for fighting for Israel.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

21. Exactly.

[leesa]

26. Symbiotic, but Israel gets all the freebies. In return they give us

endless aggravated opportunities to invade her neighboring countries to save poor Israel.

[LostinVA]

28. Bingo n/t

[Beelzebud]

33. Agreed.

[Clark2008]

35. That's what I was thinking.

eom

[genieroze]

37. Bingo

[Sapphocrat]

39. Bingo. n/t

[LSK]

41. I was about to post the same

[titoresque]

42. Ding ding! n/t

[Placebo]

43. Bingo.

:patriot:

[baldguy]

48. the other way around

[dpbrown]

54. I agree

Israel uses the massive group punishment hammer to punish whole classes of brown-skinned people and the United States vetoes holding it accountable for the unjustified genocide that it causes.

[AngryOldDem]

58. Exactly

And it's time the U.S. cut the cord.

[Ron Green]

66. Yes, of course. Agreed.

[LincolnMcGrath]

70. ding ding

[laura888]

72. Yup n/t

[Jara sang]

75. Yes, other way around.

Remember the U.S.S. Liberty?

[gemdem]

76. We have a winner! n/t

[serryjw]

4. You have it backwards

US is pawn of Israel.....I would trust Mossad before our CIA

[On the Road]

12. Damn -- That's How I Read the Poll

I voted for the wrong option -- should have been "not at all" rather than "mostly."

[acmejack]

5. respondents 1,2,3 are all correct

OK 4 is too.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

6. Pretty much.

The United States government has never really given a shit about the Jewish people. They were a useful pawn during the cold war. In much the same way Hussein and Iraq were.

Israel's still, apparently, useful to the powers that be.

[SoCalDem]

7. It's a mutual suicide pact

:(

[chookie]

19. It may turn out this way

Right wing extremists in the US and Israel WANT a regional war, in the belief that the incontestable military might of the two countries fighting as allies ensures victory -- i.e. "security" for Israel, and US domination of remaining oil reserves.

But it is unlikely to end up that way. What is more likely is that the US, and Israel to a far lesser degree, will find itself in a regional quagmire from which there is no escape, which will dwarf the disasters of Iraq and Viet Nam and the occupation of Palestine. Blood and treasure will be expended into this quagmire on a scale that has never been seen before, and become a disaster which neither nation can ultimately survive.

Bringing the US and Israel to fight as allies in the region is also what people like Osama bin Laden and Ahmadinejad want. They are smart enough to know, as the NeoCons stubbornly refuse to consider because they are "idealists", that getting Israel and the US into a regional quagmire will EVENTUALLY lead to their downfall and/or destruction, as many empires have been brought to their knees for millenia past.

When Ahmadinejad means when he says "Israel will be wiped from the map" -- he is not saying he intends to invade and destroy them, as is being alleged by right wing Israelis and US NeoCons for whom he is the Hitler de jour. Rather, he subscribes to the "quicksand" theory of Arab victory, that Israel and the US will be defeated slowly, by stupidly putting themselves into an unwinnable situation in which they will slowly be bled to death.

It will be wise for the US and Israel to pull back from the brink of a regional war. They cannot achieve their objectives or ensure their security in such a war -- they may ensure their demise.

[WiseButAngrySara]

40. I so agree with your analysis! One wonders why the right wing

conservatives list Thucydide's History of the Peloponnesian War as one of their favorite texts! Exactly what happened to Greece is happening now, and the wonderful Greek civilization was forever lost. Thucydides hated Pericles, and disguised him in his speeches, but Pericles was not 'hidden' in Thuc.'s accounting of the war, and he held Pericles directly responsible for the devastation that took place. Thucydides loved Democracy, but recognized the need for a 'single authoritative leader' in war time. This is the origin (IMHO) of the duties of the POTUS. The real Pericles would never have been chosen by Thucydides, as he was the cause of a war that Thucydides hated. How is it the the war-crazy right wing radicals love Thucydides so much? I think it's because they, like fundamentalist Christians, and fundamentalist anything, completely misinterpret his great message to mankind, and so it's happening all over again. Why can't we learn from history?

[ohiosmith]

8. No. Shellfish isn't kosher.

[Behind the Aegis]

13. hahaha!

:rofl: Actually, it's "prawn," but your post was funny.

[Minnesota Libra]

9. I'm not sure anyone is a pawn here but if there is a pawn at all it's.....

....the US who is a pawn of Israel. Mainly that would be due to the neocon/fundie segment of this country.

[Behind the Aegis]

11. seems some "progressives" (?) here think....

These cartoons are NO different than the opinions I am seeing expressed at DU. :puke:

[jsamuel]

14. my opinion is different

I think Israel is just plain wrong for invading. Nothing else, just wrong. Not stupid/controlling/sinister, just wrong.

[Behind the Aegis]

15. I have seen those opinions expressed as well.

While I don't agree with it, it is a legitimate response and not blustery propaganda. I think Israel is using too much firepower, once again. However, I feel they are well with their right to respond to an illegal and aggressive action committed against their nation.

[bryant69]

16. Nonsense

Total nonsense.

You can say that Israel has an undue influence on the United States without being anti-semetic or paranoid. Becuse they clearly seem to have an undue influence on the United States.

Bryant

[Behind the Aegis]

18. You need to take a spin through some other threads!

There is a difference between "undue influence" and "control," which is what quite a few have said, either by using the term "pawn," or flat out saying Israel controls US foreign policy.

[bryant69]

20. I used the word Pawn - but because i saw it refered to the other way

People indicating that the events happening in Lebenon were part of some rovian master plan.

Bryant

[Behind the Aegis]

24. But your use, is indicating the US is the chess master.

While I don't believe that either, I think there is more undue pressure from the US than from Israel. I also don't think this is some "Rovian plan," because that would mean the US has influence with Hizb'allah and it clearly doesn't. If anything, this was just an incursion that the US, and perhaps Israel, can exploit for other reasons....but to think this was planned out...that gets a :tinfoilhat:!

[titoresque]

45. oh geez

just follow the money. And it IS entirely possible to be anti-zionist/neocon without being anti-Semitic.

[Behind the Aegis]

52. No one said it WASN'T.

[chookie]

22. On the discussion of US/Israeli relations:

It is easier and safer to disagree with Israeli policy *in Israel* itself, than here in the US.

Although it is an easy strategy in America to shut down such discussion by accusing anyone who does not toe the line that "Israel is infallible" of "anti-Semitism" (even though they are not anti-Semitic as charged) -- it's a little tough to call a fellow Israeli "anti-Semitic."

The New Order in the US is for citizens to sit down and shut up. Get with The Program. :sarcasm:

If, as I fear, a regional war breaks out, it will become illegal in the US to question Israeli policies. Clearly, some progressives among us would support that, and feel victorious if dissenting voices among their fellow Americans were silenced.

[WiseButAngrySara]

51. BINGO AGAIN, chookie! I'm going to start looking for your posts! ....n/t

[bloom]

23. I don't think it's progressive at all

to say that some are anti-semitic for having opinions that are different from yours.

Which is basically what you are saying.

[Behind the Aegis]

25. No...that is what YOU are saying.

I am saying there are many here who are anti-Israeli.

[LostinVA]

29. Being anti-Israel is not being anti-semitic

There's a huge difference. I can't stand that fascist Putin, but I'm not anti-Russian. I loathe the Chinese government, but I have two very, very good friends who are Chinese citizens.

[Behind the Aegis]

32. I am not the one who implied it!

[bloom]

44. As if your cartoons have no meaning.

I wouldn't think that anyone would believe that.

[AlienGirl]

47. Those cartoons express the same opinion many DUers have

That Israel is somehow controlling the US (and everyone else) for its own benefit. Do you doubt that some DUers believe this?

(Obligatory IJC link: http://www.internationaljewishconspiracy.com )

Tucker

[bloom]

50. There is also the "Jews controlling the world" one

and the one with the words Born to Kill super-imposed on the Star of David.


I think those two, esp. go beyond any opinions that Israel is pulling strings, has an influential lobby, or that sort of thing, and are clearly accusations of anti-semitism. Some of you can deny it all you want. I think you're being disingenuous.


on edit:

I don't think that those who are critical of Israel think that Jews have no choice but to Kill others. Quite the opposite.

Maybe you think that? :shrug:

[Behind the Aegis]

53. They are examples of "Israel control the world" meme.

Which is very popular here.

[bloom]

56. What does

"Born to Kill" with a Star of David have to do with that?


You mean because people are critical of some of Israels aggressive, non-proportional deadly force. Just the same as we would be if the US did the same kind of thing.

Or do you think that no one has a right to criticize Israel (I was going to say non-Jews - but plenty of Jews are critical of Israel).


I see your "cartoons" as anti-DU, anti-progressives, anti-anti-war people propagandic nonsense. I suppose it makes you feel better, though. Baiting people like that.

[Behind the Aegis]

59. I am going to make this very simple.

The "Born to Kill" is a bastardization of the Israeli flag.

The "baiter" here is YOU! A pro-Israeli poster defies your 'position' and we are accused of being un-progressive, freepers, and now the new..."you are calling me an anti-Semite!" meme! I am not speaking for anyone other than me, but when I say "anti-Israeli" that is exactly what I mean! If I think your post is anti-Semitic, I will not respond, I will alert! I am tired of people, like yourself, telling what I say is not what I mean! I am a fucking Jew! I know what anti-Semitism is and what it isn't! Do not presume to tell me I don't know the difference between anti-Semitic and anti-Israeli! There are plenty of criticisms of Israel that aren't even close to being anti-Semitic, and then, there are the ones that are based in anti-Semitism. The first one (anti-Israeli) I will respond to, the second, I will alert on!

I see those cartoons as representative of many comments in this thread alone!

[bloom]

61. And I suppose

that when you wrote "progressives" (?) that was not "Bait" - that you were NOT suggesting that some people are NOT progressive. Yeah, right.


And I don't agree that "fucking Jews" (your term) can say what anti-semitism is and others don't know it when they see it.

I've seen too many people throw out the anti-semitism insult to take it seriously anymore. It's people who have overused it - who have rendered the term meaningless.

It just sounds like someone who doesn't have an argument.

[Behind the Aegis]

62. ...

I am sorry, but to maintain that the nation of Israel controls the government of the US is not a progressive attitude, it is :tinfoilhat: claptrap!

"And I don't agree that "fucking Jews" (your term) can say what anti-semitism is and others don't know it when they see it."

I didn't say that, now did I?! No! What I said was : "I am a fucking Jew! I know what anti-Semitism is and what it isn't!" I said nothing about other peoples abilities!

"I've seen too many people throw out the anti-semitism insult to take it seriously anymore."

And, I have seen too many throw out the whiny, "but they will call me an anti-Semite..." even when not ONE person has done it! Again, I will remind you, "when I say "anti-Israeli" that is exactly what I mean!

"It just sounds like someone who doesn't have an argument."

I agree, you don't have one.

[chookie]

77. >>I know what anti-Semitism is and what it isn't!<<

You're not the only one who can make that determination. Any honest person, regardless of creed, can also make that assessment.

We love Jews -- really we do -- or why have Americans for decades supported Israel so generously? However, I do not agree with the notion that only Jews have special extra-sensory powers of perception that can detect anti-Semitism (even where none exists).

None of the posts here are anti-Semitic, although clearly there is criticism of recent Israeli policy and questioning of America's relations with recent Israeli policy. Indeed, even among American Jews, and even among Jews in Israel itself, there is no monolithic response to Israel.

Aegis -- take this stuff up with the Aryan Brotherhood and other hate groups. Now THAT's real and authentic and dangerous anti-Semitism!! (You see -- I CAN tell it when I see it!!) And -- guess what? -- Americans denounce and condemn the Aryan Brotherhood.

You're just driving your friends away with these ugly accusations. Save them for your real enemies.

[AlienGirl]

60. Do you have a color monitor?

In case you don't, the image has the Star of David and the stripes in the shade of blue in which they appear on the Israeli flag.

Tucker

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

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[chookie]

68. I beg to differ

Most DUers are Americans. As Americans, since the founding of Israel, we have been it's best friend. For decades we have condoned our government in its giving of generous aid and moral support. We Americans have for decades elected leaders and representatives who have pledged support for Israel.

Given the long history of American generousity and support for Israel, why then do you so freely strike your fellow Americans full in the face when, given the present crisis, some of us are asking questions about Israeli policies and actions? Do you think that in hitting us on our snout, and try to rub our noses in filth -- like those cartoons, which are **not** the creation of American minds -- that we will cower before you like little dogs? It has worked on our elected representatives, who do faint when these specious allegations are made, but after the zillionth time this false accusation has been hurled at ordinary Americans, it has lost its potency.

You are very free with accusing your fellow Americans of anti-Semitism. I know, and darn it, you know too, that these acccusations are false. I know you are no dummy. Why do you wish to depict your fellow Americans, in a democratic forum like DU, as having hatred towards Jews? You know it is a misrepresentation.

The world is at a critical juncture, due to the events of recent weeks. Americans are already fighting for Israel in Iraq (Bush even says so, in code, when he says, "We are fighting in Iraq to keep the fight away from America and its allies," which is Israel. We Americans might find ourselves drawn into a regional war along with Israel. As American blood stands to be shed, I think it is prudent that we give this idea serious thought before we preciptiously go to war along with Israel.

The false anti-Semitism accusations, and claiming that those creepy cartoons represent mainstream American thought is hooey -- you know it, I know it. By repeatedly attacking us, you are not silencing your enemies -- rather, you are driving your friends away. I know you are a passionate advicate for Israel -- if you want your fellow Americans to follow with you, better find a better tactic....

[datadiva]

17. You forgot one

or does it work both ways. Tit for Tat. Vice versa.

[no_hypocrisy]

27. I'd label it more codependency than lackey-slave role. n/t

[NoSheep]

30. I think it's the other way around.

[LittleClarkie]

31. Other: strike that/reverse it

The other way around.

[God Almighty]

34. True

[leftofthedial]

36. the neocon movement in the US are pawns of Israel

to the extent the neocon movement shares power currently, especially as regards foreign policy, the US is more a pawn of Israel

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[deaniac21]

46. Israel is a Bishop or a Rook.

[Marr]

55. Israel is sort of a US franchise outlet.

Historically, US policy makers have been adamant about doing "business" in the region, but they didn't actually want to get their hands dirty. So- we let someone else set up shop using our brand and our products. They just have to take general directions from the head office.

Like McDonalds, but with tanks.

[Warren DeMontague]

57. No, There's one country which is behind a lot of shit in the ME and in bed

with this administration---



but it's not Israel.

[AlienGirl]

63. Spot on.

[Vidar]

64. We keep trying to play Israel & are usually out played by them.

[readmoreoften]

65. Yes Rove and the PNAC are all pawns in the Israeli game.

Come on. That's silly. We are the King, the Saudis are the Queen, the Israelis are the Knights, Europe are the Rooks, and we are all the pawns.

[Cleita]

67. I think it's the opposite and that we are pawns of Israel.

It's not that I don't think Israel has a right to exist. You can't change what was done in 1948 for not the best of motives by the western powers. But now we have to move beyond that and really try to come together as an international community to unite rather than divide the Middle East. Oh, yes kicking the Americans out of the whole Middle East would be a good start.

[CatholicEdHead]

69. Other way around

The US is the pawn of Israel. They say jump, we say how high.

[treestar]

71. No, the US seems to take its cues from Israel

The US has allowed Israel incredible amounts of influence.

Like the aggrandizing of Victim Status, we have adopted that in our culture.

Also 911 seemed to have gotten the US to adopt most of Israel's crap to US standards: I.e., they want to kill us all (drive us into the sea); they are trying to destroy us - we must preemptively attack - we are stronger but we are "victims" of others who want to "destroy us." Blah, blah, blah, poor, poor us.
Poor, poor US. Everybody trying to destroy us. We therefore have to kill you before you kill us.

We are "entitled" because we are Victims.

[chookie]

74. The idea of the identical interests of Israel and the US

This was a theme that emerged after Sept 11 -- that the interests of the US and Israel are identical. That we are both victims of irrational, murderous madmen who hate our freedom. The idea of US and Israeli unity of purpose was forged at this time, and is the prevailing foreign policy.

The US has also adopted the Israeli methods and philosophy of war. Israeli seems to be using the US as a proxy army to destroy Israel's enemies, and seems to be quite comfortable in whatever price we will end up paying in blood and treasure for their ambitions.

Note that I call it "ambitions." As I wrote above as a response to Aegis, I think Americans for decades have voted for governments that supported the security of Israel and been strongly behind Israel's right to exist. But since the advent of the Bush adminstration's break with the traditional "honest broker" role, and undertaking a policy in which Israel will be allowed to prevail, we are in a very new moment in our relations with Israel. In this new environment, particularly after the renewal of hostilities with Lebanon, Syria, and soon, I think, Iran, we are not only supporting Israel's security, but we have progressed to securing Israel's ambitions in the region -- which is a significant departure, and one which I believe Americans need to think through very carefully if we are to remain in charge of our own destiny.

We may soon be drawn into a regional war on behalf of Israel (Bush, after all, has repeatedly vowed to "protect our allies") which I have stated above, will dwarf the disasters of Viet Nam, Iraq, and the occupation of Palestine. America MUST think independently and question carefully if we should risk such a long term and bloody war.

Now that it has come to the point where American blood will be shed for Israel, you can count me out. Israel can and must take care of Israel -- after all, it has one of the world's greatest and mightiest armies PLUS nuclear capability, and has stated as recently as today that all options are on the table. I'd bet on Israel to prevail in any war against any nation in the Middle East. However, I know they will not succeed in securing the peace, which is the most important thing. Even if the US does join Israel in the fight, even our combined forces will fail to secure peace. The other option Israel should consider is making some serious compromises and earnestly seeking reconciliation with the people of Palestine -- with much a$$i$tance from the US and the former colonial power which help to set up this mess for the Jewish and Arab peoples.

[Odin2005]

73. Our support of Israel is all about the Jewish-American vote.

[chookie]

80. In part, but not all

That's a teensy weensy bit cynical in my view -- sorry.

I really think that post-war America was horrified by the holocaust and reacted passionately to redress the sufferings Jews endured under Hitler -- who we fought to overthrow. Americans for many decades, even today, and very much behind the right of Israel to exist and be secure -- and that has been the bigger motivator, in my view. (Just now, we're beginning to wonder if after 60 years of intense conflict, perhaps it's not working out as we all hoped....)

Many American Jews are strongly supportive of Israel -- that's where the "Jewish vote" comes in, as you say. But I would argue that Jews in America do NOT have a monolithic response to Israel -- that many feel very much at home in America, are deeply woven into our national identity, and that they consider themselves Americans, and Jews, first, and consider Israeli as a subset of world Jewry that they do not feel a part of.

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

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[Egalitariat]

79. If we took the reins off Israel, they'd annihilate the entire region

before you got to work on Monday. So, yes, we control them.

[chookie]

82. We don't seem to be controlling them that well, these recent days!

Israelis, and Americans, are patting themselves on the back for showing "restraint." Yeah yeah -- we know very well the fury and destruction and massive death that Israel and the US can deal out! They could be killing so many others. They could be nuking Iraq! They have been very clear in declaring that all options are on the table, however....

It is stated US policy, under Bush, that Israel is to be allowed to prevail, and that means make use of its military might. (The NeoCons have been agitating for that for years -- they say "What's the use of having a massive military if you're not going to use it?") I would not call that "US reins on Israel." The US, IMHO, has instead taken the brakes off Israel.

What IS "restraining" Israel at this time, barely, are those few shreds of decency and morality that still survive in the world.

[New Government]

81. You may have the question reversed

Some people don't want to talk about it, but Israel - and their pawns at AIPAC - have the US by the balls. The real question: "Is The United States a Pawn of Israel?"

[pinto]

83. Locking.

In context of the current volatile situation, this seems uneccesarily inflammatory and only vaguely related to ongoing events as being reported today.