Soldiers Told To Shed Privately Bought Body Armor or Lose Benefits?

[snot]

I don't know if this is true, but . . .

Soldiers Told To Shed Dragon
Skin or Lose SGLI Death Benefits

By Nathaniel R. Helms

Two deploying soldiers and a concerned mother reported Friday afternoon that the U.S. Army appears to be singling out soldiers who have purchased Pinnacle's Dragon Skin Body Armor for special treatment. The soldiers, who are currently staging for combat operations, reported that their commander told them if they were wearing Pinnacle Dragon Skin and were killed their beneficiaries might not receive the death benefits from their $400,000 SGLI life insurance policies. The soldiers were told to leave their privately purchased body armor at home or face the possibility of both losing their life insurance benefit and facing disciplinary action, they said.

http://www.sftt.org/main.cfm ;
see entire story at: http://www.sftt.org/main.cfm?actionId=globalShowStaticContent&screenKey=cmpDefense&htmlCategoryID=30&htmlId=4514

[tuvor]

1. Cheaper to bury 'em than to pay for rehab.

Are we surprised?

[ixion]

2. it's difficult to even respond to that

little wonder why I would never join the military, which logic like that. :crazy:

[MostlyLurks]

3. Recommended for greatest.

This is one of those things that every congress person - D and R - should be looking into and howling absolute bloody hell over it if it's true.

Mostly

[Nothing Without Hope]

4. See also this related thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x158610
thread title (1-16-06 GD): Pentagon FORBIDS troops to buy better body armor

[peacetalksforall]

5. For months into years we have heard the stories about inadequate

protection so we are not surprised to hear that some soldiers used their own or raised funds to protect themselves and now we hear they are threatened if they do protect themselves.

If I were writing the Hollywood script about this bizarre story I would say that the reason the army is upset is that their insider contract with their own supplier is thwarted and someone or some entity will make less money. And if I really wanted to add an angle to the script I would add that their preferred supplier had promised to pay legal fees if any should arise from families of any soldier should any bring a lawsuit against the U.S. The military would whip out their contract with their supplier and the entire thing would be wrapped up in costs and delays.

The only thing we know from this article is that the soldiers were convinced that one product was better than the other and what we don't know in glaring terms is why the military thinks the opposite. The silence in this article is deafening and the first thing that comes to mind is that the military prefers deaths which is too bizarre.

This isn't Hollywood. These are our kids. And we hear a NO and a threat. Which is worse, the idea that the military is denying superior protection which we have no way of knowing right now or that the military is threatening our own kids, if this is all true?

Then we can ask is this story more bizarre than the others that came before this, including the question asked directly to Don - about looking through refuse piles for pieces of anything to improve their protection (which included the use of plywood?)?

[robbedvoter]

6. Uh...support the troops? rah-ra-rah?

:wow:

[ComerPerro]

7. In what world, using what logic, does that make sense?

[robbedvoter]

8. Pinnacle Skin Dragon must be competition for Halliburton?

I bet that's it! Unca Dick would lose some bonus points because of this!

[ixion]

13. that's exactly what it is...check it out...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nellie-b/soldiers-prevented-from-u_b_13938.html

"SFTT's Charles figures that the Pentagon is being stubborn about Dragon Skin because of "bureaucratic turf protection."

We were told by several independent consultants who work for the Pentagon that cannot be named because of fear of losing their jobs that this was probably the best available body armor. It's what they would take to Baghdad. They do not have any financial ties with Pinnacle Armor. We're not saying it's the best. We're saying it ought to get a fair test."

[robbedvoter]

16. "Follow the money" always pays of with these crooks

It's their reason for waging war, their reason for killing our own troops etc.

[HardWorkingDem]

9. Don't know of the entire story, but here is something to consider..

there is a huge controversy going on right now in regards to privately manufactured protective vests. There is one company out there that has manufactured a light vest that has a possible failure rate of around 30 to 40 percent. American police officers are using this vest as we speak.

Also, without knowing the entire story behind this story, American soldiers might be buying vests that do not offer as much protection as ones they are all ready being issued. They might be buying lighter weight vests for reasons such as trying to beat the Iraqi heat, rather than being more protective or vests that don't allow the insertion of protective plates.

One other thing to keep in mind - vests are made in varying forms to resist different levels of armaments and when someone buys a thinner vest that still stops bullets, it still might not be safer than a bulkier vest. For example, it might not protect against blunt force trauma. Imagine it this way, say you have a piece of paper that is bullet proof and decide to wear that instead of something with thickness to it. The thicker vests offer protection against blunt force trauma as well.

Now, don't take this as a defense of vests that are not sufficient for our troops. This is only meant to show that more information is needed before making a stance on this issue. In the haste to get protective vests, our troops might be purchasing poorly made vests from companies that are purely out there as war profiteers.

[ComerPerro]

10. True, but purchased armor is better than none at all

[JPZenger]

11. Generals Get to Use the Best Armor, Troops Can't

The article also says that several US generals in Afghanistan are getting to use the new high-tech body armor that the army won't let the troops bring to Iraq. The generals are "testing" it.

The current US body armor was developed in the 1990s, and is prone to breakage if it hits the ground (such as a soldier falling to the ground when shots ring out). The current body armor is also often useless after the first shot. The newer alternative body armor that the troops want to use is reportedly resistant to multiple shots.

One company was given the exclusive contract for the current body armor, despite delays and faults with it.

[ixion]

12. apparently, this is SUPERIOR armor, not inferior

as logic may dictate.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nellie-b/soldiers-prevented-from-u_b_13938.html


Meanwhile, there may already exist a better set of body armor, Dragon Skin made by Pinnacle Armor of Fresno, Calif., according to industry observers like Defense Review (warning: very technical discussion), and many Iraq-bound soldiers and Marines have spent their own money to get it -- some $6,000 each. But now they face possible retaliation, says SFTT.



and indeed, it IS about TURF:


SFTT's Charles figures that the Pentagon is being stubborn about Dragon Skin because of "bureaucratic turf protection."

We were told by several independent consultants who work for the Pentagon that cannot be named because of fear of losing their jobs that this was probably the best available body armor. It's what they would take to Baghdad. They do not have any financial ties with Pinnacle Armor. We're not saying it's the best. We're saying it ought to get a fair test.

[happyslug]

17. More on Dragon Skin Armor

First, From the Manufacturer:
http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/body-armor/sov.php

Other Articles:
http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_PArmor,00.html
http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=827
http://www.ocnus.net/cgi-bin/exec/view.cgi?archive=80&num=20965

The Big Issue seems to be cost, The present set of Armor, the Interceptor body armor, cost about $1100 for a set of Body armor, while the Dragon Skin of the same nature costs over $5000.

The reason for the Difference is HOW the Armor is made, Dragon Skin is "Scale Armor" where you have individual "scales" overlapping each other. These scales have to be kept together, this is done by connecting the scales to each other like Medieval Chain mail (except in Scale Armor the protection is solid scales instead of the very tight weave of Medieval Chain Mail). Thus you will see Dragon Skin called both Scale Armor and Chain Mail, through from its description Scale Armor is the more accurate term.

On the other hand what the Army is using now, the Interceptor body armor, is a "Conventional" Design i.e. solid material woven to together and than cut to fit (All by heavy duty machines) best compared to Plate Armor of the Middle ages (and I refereed to a Pseudo-Plate). In Front of the vest a Ceramic Plate is installed to provide additional protection from Bullets (This plate is generally usable only once, i.e. once fired on or hit by explosives must be replaced even if it looks solid).

Now all vests use long string man made fibers (Kevlar was the first and still one of the longest fibers ever made). This length is the key to these vests. The Long fiber spreads the impact of the bullet or explosion over a wider area than shorter fibers (Such as Nylon or natural fibers) and thus the "bullet proof" part of a Vest is based on these long Fibers. The problems is such long fibers do deteriorate over time (For Example Nylon will deteriorated under direct Sunlight almost over night unless protected by a coating, thus ALL Nylon has a coating applied to it so it does not break down the first time it is exposed to Sunlight).

Such coatings are important, but sometime the newer longer fiber breaks down for other reasons. For example around 2001 the Army was looking at Zylon to replace Kevlar, but found out that after a few years Zylon deteriorated. Thus when New Zylon was stronger than Kevlar, but after a few years (and sometime months) it was not. When this was found Zylon died as a material.

I have NOT heard of any problems on deterioration of either the Interceptor body armor or Dragon Skin. I suspect both are made from the same basic material (Kevlar or one of its newer better cousins) thus the difference is in the Constructions of the two types of Body Armor, Scale vs pseudo-Plate. Just some background on Armor and the Material it is made from.

[Skidmore]

14. There was a general on CSPAN last Thurs? demonstrating

new armor. Was this demonstration in advance of this article?

It would seem to me that some article is better than none, even the best.

It also seems to me that this is extortion by our DOD. We shall commence screaming to be heard now.

[Nikki Stone1]

15. It's true and this is a dupe

Not that that's a bad thing. This should be yelled from the rooftops.

[snot]

18. so sorry--self-delete--you're right. nt

[f-bush]

19. Can't have the WH looking bad now can we?

Even if it costs a few hundred more lives!

[jmowreader]

20. Thinking out loud...

There are basically two kinds of body armor in use in Iraq.

One is the Interceptor Outer Tactical Vest. It contains kevlar plates with ceramic outer plates. The ceramic plates will stop a bullet--emphasis on "a" because the plate shatters when a round hits it. The plate also tends to shatter when the soldier hits the dirt. This is the vest the troops are allowed to use.

The other is Pinnacle's Dragon Skin, which is used by...well, everyone else in theatre, plus the Secret Service Presidential Protection Detail among others. If you KNOW you're going to get shot at, this is the armor you want. It's called Dragon Skin because of the way it's made--small armor discs are joined together into a flexible plate.

The major difference from a procurement standpoint is that you can buy four Interceptor vests for the price of one Dragon Skin.

The major difference from the soldier's standpoint is that if an Old Iraqi Army member cuts loose with a machinegun, the second round he fires isn't going through the armor--which is why soldiers voluntarily pony up the price of a very good used car to buy this product.

Dragon Skin is a PR disaster-in-the-making for the military, though. Eventually someone's going to point out that Dragon Skin enhances a soldier's survivability on the battlefield over the Interceptor OTV and people will start asking why the troops don't get this armor issued to them. Well...there are two reasons why this is so. The obvious one is that the people holding the sole-source contract for armor don't make Dragon Skin. The other is that after we gave all those rich people all those tax cuts, there isn't enough money left in the procurement budget to spend $5000 keeping one soldier alive. (I know what you're thinking: "Why don't we, just for the hell of it, shift some money from the Funeral Budget to the Good Armor Budget so we don't have to keep bagging up armor-failure-related dead soldiers and sending them home?" It's not easy to shift money between accounts once it's been allocated.)