Can someone tell Israel that bombing AMBULANCES is not cool?

[file83]

The Red Crescent isn't supposed to be a target.

Lebanese soldiers and civilians check the damage to an ambulance that was hit during an Israeli airstrike in Zahrani, in southern Lebanon.
Photo from Yahoo News

[cigsandcoffee]

1. While I doubt that this one was meant us such...

...militants have previously used Red Crescent ambulances as bombs. That's a creepy tactic.

[Behind the Aegis]

3. That is very true...

...however, without more information, we can't assume that happened or that Israel targeted that ambulance. This was done during a bomb drop, so anything in the way was bound to get hit.

[Selatius]

4. It's a shitty tactic.

I've read about some horrible practices used by guerrilla fighters in fighting big occupying powers, but using ambulances as car bombs ranks up there with the Viet Cong telling little children to wear peculiar vests with bombs in them before sending them to beg for candy from US soldiers in Saigon.

[Clark2008]

69. This was targeted - it wasn't a car bomb.

I'm not sure what you mean.

[aquart]

8. Yeah. Kinda hard to respect the symbol after that.

Wouldn't you say?

But just keep on being clear that the Israelis are evil monsters and everyone else is their innocent peace-loving victim.

They're sleeping in bomb shelters and they've never been able to live a day without them. What is the population of Israel? Where every man and woman MUST have non-optional military training because there's nobody to do their fighting for them and they are few on the ground to begin with. What is the population of Lebanon? Syria? Iran? Egypt? Iraq? Saudi Arabia? Which of those nations is not waiting for the second of weakness to pounce and triumphantly destroy. Not live in peace with. Destroy.

Tell the truth.

[bullimiami]

2. they will never solve their problems with more killing.

the only answer is tolerance and interaction. i dont know if they will ever learn.

[cigsandcoffee]

6. Tolerance and interaction?

I'd have a hell of a hard time tolerating sporadic rocket attacks, I can tell you that much. And I wouldn't be going to cocktail parties with the people shooting them at me either.

The only way this will ever end is when they all wipe each other out. Sorry to say.

[chookie]

53. For me personally...

...well piloted military jets buzzing my proximity bugs the heck out of me. I've just experienced it under friendly skies, courtesy of the Blue Angels, but the thought I had at the time was -- what a horror it must be to have combat aircraft constantly buzzing your neighborhood, and not knowing what was going to happen -- that I might imminently perish as an "ooops."

As for the "when they wipe each other out" part -- IMHO -- this is Bush's back-up strategy now that the "flowers and candy" flinging failed to materialize. We've moved on the Kilkenney Cats strategy of foreign policy.

[WinkyDink]

74. Well, let's let the Arabs start first, m'kay? They can begin with the

school texts that don't show Israel on any map.

[SlipperySlope]

5. Tell the militants to stop using ambulances as troop transports

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqGjz7iJTns

[cigsandcoffee]

7. Damn. That's fucked up.

It even makes the UN look complicit in the violence.

[Erika]

9. Did any Lebanese troops attack Israelis?

If so, please post the facts.

[cigsandcoffee]

10. hundreds of rockets are shot from Lebanon in to Israel.

They are shot off by a group that enjoys much local support and holds seats in the Lebanese parliament. Are you suggesting it's not the responsibility of Lebaonon to put an end to that, and that their failure to do so does not amount to support?

If so, I'd have to disagree. Lebanon is in this up to its eyeballs.

[Erika]

16. Why did W say that we should still support the Lebanese

government?

Where are you getting your facts from?

[cigsandcoffee]

25. Reuters, for one

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2006-07-13T043536Z_01_L13106480_RTRUKOC_0_US-MIDEAST-ISRAEL-ROCKETS.xml

MSNBC...

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/13843344/

The BBC...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5178058.stm

The Mumbai Mirror...

http://www.mumbaimirror.com/nmirror/mmpaper.asp?sectid=5&articleid=71320062151306717132006215022109

The People's Daily...

http://english.people.com.cn/200607/14/eng20060714_282873.html


And there are many others. I have no idea what Bush is saying, which is par for the course.

[cali]

26. Are you truly

this clueless. Do some research. H'zbollah holds 23 seats in the Lebanese Parliament and several ministry level positions. There are no Lebanese troops on the border with Israel- only H'zbollah. I really don't feel like educating you. Surely you know how to use Google.

[nguoihue]

46. So much for democracy in the Middle East

It's only real democracy when the neocon puppets get elected.

[cali]

47. oh now that

was a deeply perceptive comment and so responsive, too.

[Behind the Aegis]

51. Just an aside...

some of the posts and threads the past two days have been like a bad "carpet bombing." Lots of fire, but little substance or accuracy. :)

[Name removed]

57. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[malaise]

64. So how many of the lunatic right wing in Israel

hold seats in their Parliament?

[cali]

66. You miss the point.

There's plenty to criticize about Israel, but I shouldn't have to make a criticism of some other entity and then add, "oh, but Israel's way worse", or words to that effect. That's pretty simple.

[The_Casual_Observer]

14. So how many troops were in that one?

[cigsandcoffee]

18. A whole bunch of guys piled in the back of it. Maybe 7 or 8.

It was obviously being used to transport militants safely.

[Erika]

20. Where did you get that info from? n/t

[cigsandcoffee]

27. From the video in post number 5

Watch it all the way through.

[High Plains]

88. That is old video from GAZA! Not Lebanon.

Again: How many fighters were in the ambulance Israel bombed today?

How many fighters were in that minivan Israel bombed today? 15 dead, kids' body parts all over the place.

Are you deliberately trying to confuse things here?

[The_Casual_Observer]

23. You would think that it would have been reported.

That would have been quite a score.

[Erika]

28. I've noted considerable histrionics from Israeli" right or wrong"

supporters.

[cigsandcoffee]

31. Did you watch the video?

If you don't want to describe it as fucked up, that's fine. But it will have to be a sentiment of equal value.

[Lindacooks]

45. Yeah, me too.

There are good and bad people on both sides.

And I'd like to ask the Israelis: how's their policy of 'shoot first' been working for them? Do they have peace? Are they safe? Indiscriminately bombing the shit out of a country isn't producing the results they claim they want.

[Recursion]

65. Look at it from their perspective

After they withdrew from southern Lebanon and Gaza, militants used both of those territories to stage attacks on pre-1967 Israel, which was allegedly sacrosanct. Do they like being occupied or something? Why attack after the occupying forces depart?

I used to be very pro-Palestinian until the Gaza withdrawl; once they started shooting rockets from unoccupied Gaza into Israel proper, they lost me. Ditto Hezbollah in Lebanon (though I make an exception for that one strip in the Golan they still claim).

And then the other day the Palestinian PM says that they need to settle "the 1948 issue"... which, in case anyone has forgotten, is the existence of Israel as an independent state. I really, really hate to agree with Krauthammer, but he was right in his Op-Ed today. The Israeli occupation was a red herring. It was used by militants to dupe westerners into supporting their cause. Now that the occupation of Gaza and Lebanon are over, militants have used that to stage further attacks into Israel. Israel has (finally) concluded that it is at war, not simply a target of crime. Now that we're talking about this as what it is, war, we can start to find a way out.

[Lindacooks]

72. Sorry, for me it's how many are killed on each side.

The number of those Palestinians killed in this conflict way overshadows Israelis killed by Palestinians. The Palestinians are the underdogs here.

By the way, I think both sides are nuts, and we should take ALL that land away from them and give each country an island on opposite sides of the world from each other. They have clearly demonstrated they are not adult enough to own that land. Give it to the UN and they can make a theme park out of it, or something.

On edit:

And look at this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1634480

[Recursion]

73. Underdogs aren't always right, or good nt

[Lindacooks]

77. Well, Israel ain't either. n/t

[High Plains]

89. Citing Charles Krauthammer. What a fucking war pig he is.

If Krauthammer says it, it has to be a goddamned lie.

[Clark2008]

70. The most sane post in this thread

Thank you.

[cigsandcoffee]

29. It's in the video in post number 5.

It's pretty hard to pretend it's not being used as a militant transport. Or were those things the men were carrying really life saving tools that had been cunningly designed to look like machine guns?

[Erika]

32. No, they were picking up the wounded n/t

[cigsandcoffee]

35. Either you didn't watch the video to the end.

Or you're intentionally not believing your eyes. Otherwise, your statement is fucking incredible.

[cali]

44. LOL

You may be one of the more amusing posters on DU. Your lack of accurate information is stunning.

[chookie]

58. Not like you. You're not amusing, just laser accurate, IYHO. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

99. Erika

that ambulance was loaded with ARMED personnel

Now lets play a little of devils advocate, they forced the crew to do it. Either way, it does not mater, that ambulance, and every other ambulance in the area for the duration of the conflict, or until the issue is clarified as it happened in El Salvador in the 1980s, looses all Geneva Protections...

By the way this is coming from a medic who WORKED for a national society, who ate her student medics for lunch after they loaded an armed soldier on my rig. By the by, when I was shot at on my way to the hospital with saith troop, who I disarmed, I WAS a valid target.

[The_Casual_Observer]

33. I guess they have one ambulence there, and they got it.

Or to be on the safe side, just bomb any ambulence that presents itself, that'll teach 'em.

[cigsandcoffee]

37. I'm not following you.

[Erika]

39. Cut the caffeine and nicotine, and maybe you could.

[cigsandcoffee]

41. Geez. Now I see why the ignore function was developed.

[High Plains]

91. THAT IS NOT THE AMBULANCE ATTACKED IN LEBANON!

Quit spreading this bullshit.

The ambulance video you keep referring to is from GAZA.

If you keep doing this, the only assumption we can make is that you are deliberately trying to confuse the issue. Is your employer in Tel Aviv?

[nadinbrzezinski]

100. And I will wait for the ICRC to deliver its report

on Lebaon as well... Red Crescent vehicles in both Gaza and Lebanon have been used to do this... and the ICRC has smacked them down several times for it

[Behind the Aegis]

36. I think you are a little confused.

The poster to whom you were responding is assuming there were "troops" using the ambulance as a cover, as they (various "militants") done in the past, as shown in the video. It is no different than those here who are assuming Israel targeted the ambulance, as opposed to it just being hit from a strike (mean it wasn't the target).

Since this just happened, there is no way of telling until the story unfolds. If it was targeted, it will be reported to the IRC. If it was 'collateral damage,' it will not be reported. If it was being used as transport, we may or may not hear about that.

[The_Casual_Observer]

48. afraid not. The question was this: Did that ambulance contain any

"troops"? YOUR confusion stems from attempting the impossible - to justify everything that Israel is doing in that place.

[Behind the Aegis]

50. strawman....

Here I was being polite, but a pro-Israeli here is just intolerable, isn't it?!

Face facts, ambulances have been used as transport by "militants." Things have been destroyed by Israeli bombs that were NOT the target. The OP just happened. However, the OP(oster) is suggesting Israel deliberately attacked the ambulance. I am suggesting waiting for more information. However, you have already condemned Israel, as you are want to do. You de-legitimize everything Israel does.

[Erika]

54. I'm pro anti-terror

if that includes being anti-Israel, I'm guilty.

[Behind the Aegis]

56. Given your past posts, I'd agree with you.

[The_Casual_Observer]

55. "You de-legitimize everything Israel does"

I don't have that much sway. Unfortunately, Israel has a habit of doing it all by themselves.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Clark2008]

71. I can answer that.

No. The ambulance did not contain troops.

How do I know?

Deduction.

The are NO Lebanese "troops" fighting - only civilians. The only "troops" are the Israelis.

[The Magistrate]

83. That Statement, Ma'am, Does Not Wash

Armed members of Hezbollah are soldiers, for all practical, and for all legal, purposes. Such persons are armed combatants, and liable to being killed without notice or compunction by the force they have taken up arms against.

[High Plains]

93. So is there any evidence there were militants in that ambulance?

Or just more innocent victims of the Israeli bombing campaign. I think the number is getting close to 100 now.

[The Magistrate]

95. The Statement Addressed, Sir

Was that there are no "troops" involved against Israel. There is quite definitely a body of armed combatants deployed by Hezbollah.

The details of the ambulance incknown to me, and therefore nothing for me to comment on. It does not seem anyone really knows what the facts of the matter are: only speculation has appeared here.

[Scurrilous]

63. Soldier Claims IDF Smuggled Troops In Ambulances (8 June 2004)

<snip>

"TRANSLATOR'S NOTE: This is one of those occasions where it pays to read the original in Hebrew. It is not only Haaretz that occasionally softens a story for international consumption. The Hebrew Ma'ariv actually gives the name of the soldiers' web site where his story was published. It is of course not a refuseniks' site as it is devoted to stories of serving troops. (Having checked that one I can confirm that virtually the entire story is reproduced in the Hebrew Ma'ariv.)
Shapira told the Hebrew NRG Ma'ariv: "I approached my commanders and expressed my amazement. But they explained to me that these were the most protected vehicles to transport fighters. 'This is war' they explained, in other words they told me to stop being a pest."

Shapira complained about the "moral hypocrisy" in the use of ambulances to transport fighters. "It's clear to me that that use of ambulances to transport fighters violates international conventions. It's also clear to me that such actions do not occur spontaneously but with the approval of at least the brigade commander. This reflects on the IDF's moral standard. We cannot on one hand instruct our troops to open Palestinian ambulances to check for explosive belts being transported by terrorists and on the other hand use ambulances to ferry our own troops."

MK Zahava Gal-on has formally questioned the Defence Minister, Shaul Mofaz, demanding to know if the IDF does make use of ambulances for miliary purposes. According to Gal-on if the story is correct than the IDF and the government of Israel are guilty of appalling hypocrisy in accusing the Palestinians of the use of ambulances but adopting the same improper practices themselves."

more

[lumpy]

79. I bothered to read the article claiming

that the IDF uses ambulances to transport troops. Nothing would surprise me. Isral is certainly nto above such a ploy. The video showing men with guns leaping into an ambulance does not identify where or who these people are. Anyones guess I think.

[High Plains]

87. Um, that was Gaza. Israel bombed the ambulance in Lebanon.

[CoffeeCat]

11. Does anyone else believe that...

...Israel is deliberately sparking war---to help the United States play their games in the Middle East?

[cigsandcoffee]

12. I don't. I think they're just sick of getting rockets shot at them.

Among other acts of terrorism. That would get stale after a while.

It would particularly offend me if I'd given them Gaza as a concession - Gaza, of the fabled 1967 border dispute - only to see it turned in to a base for militant operations against me. And Bethlehem, too - it would sure piss me off if I'd given up a city as important as Bethlehem with nary a thank-you or a break in the violence.

But that's just me.

[Erika]

17. Are you getting Palestine confused with Lebanon? n/t

[cigsandcoffee]

19. Not at all.

There are two fronts in this conflict - Gaza and Southern Lebanon. Israel is being attacked from both places.

[Erika]

24. Are you serious?

Have you seen the poverty of Gaza? Southern Lebanon is not the seat of Lebanese government, no more than Northern Iraq was the seat of Iraqi government. There is a defference between terrorists and governments.

Your equation would say that Terry McVeigh was the U.S. government.

[The_Casual_Observer]

30. I think the term is series!!!11!!! in this case.

[cigsandcoffee]

34. What does poverty have to do with anything?

Many are starving in Darfur, but you can't say there isn't a war happening there. Gaza is a base of terrorist operations for Hamas. I am frankly stunned that you don't know this.

Was America responsible for the Bay of Pigs, or was it just some "terrorists" in South Florida? Get real, for God's sake.

[Erika]

38. Nice try to change the subject. It didn't work.

What the Israelis have done to Lebanon is unfathomable.

I have already written my D.C. reps that not one more cent of taxpayer dollars should be given to Israel in light of their warmongering. Evidently, with W, they thought they could get away with it.

[cigsandcoffee]

40. I'm offering you some parallels that refute what you are saying.

[Erika]

42. Empty posts?

[chookie]

60. Having Israeli nukes and an invincible army hanging over your head...

...gets stale too.

But that's just me.

[High Plains]

94. Israel "gave them Gaza." Well, isn't that special!

Especially since it was Israel's to give in the first place.

Also, what Israel "gave" to the Palestinians was a giant open-air prison. Being oppressed by the Israelis tends to get stale after a while, too.

[eviltwin2525]

13. No.

[Erika]

43. You think Israel and the W administration could be tight?

And they have the same goals? Yes.

[nguoihue]

49. Tight? They're like peas in a pod, real tight

Just Google PNAC and AIPAC

[ComerPerro]

75. Israel wants to wipe these people out, the US wants war.

They just needed an excuse.

[The Magistrate]

84. That Statement Needs Clarification, Sir

If you mean by that Israel wishes to destroy the organization of Hezbollah, then it is true enough.

If you mean that Israel wants to exterminate either Lebanese Shia, or Arab Palestinians, then it is a mere propagandist excess.

[ComerPerro]

86. IMO, Israel wants Iran gone, wants Palestine gone, wants Lebanon gone

and, naturally, wants such organizations gone as well.

[The Magistrate]

97. That Doies Not Clarify The Matter, Sir

It remains unclear whether you are actually laying a claim that genocide is the intent and plan of the state of Israel, though you have employed formulations that could be taken as hinting or implying it.

[leftchick]

82. yes

the fact the bushitler** mentions Syria and Iran every time he is questioned about the Israeli aggression makes it pretty fucking clear.

[The Magistrate]

85. Unfortunately, Ma'am

It is a fact that Hezbollah is allied closely with both Syria and Iran. Hezbollah provided the political opposition in Lebanon to calls from the Lebanese themselves for the Syrian government to cease its occupation of Lebanon last year. Hezbollah receives money, arms, and training from Iran, and Syria provides the witting conduit through which the necessary articles and personnel pass. While it is possible Nasrallah of Hezbollah initiated this recent action against Israel on his own, calculating that his sponsors would have no choice but to back him once he had ignited the fire-storm, that is not the way things have worked in the past, and so the likelihood both those countries' governments gave a green light for the operation, or even requested it be conducted, is pretty good.

[High Plains]

96. Interesting speculation. Got any facts?

[The Magistrate]

98. Those Are Facts, Sir

Together with some reasonable conclusions following from them.

No good is served by turning one's face from the realities of the situation.

[lonestarnot]

15. bombs don't discriminate! Boobs not bombs!

[Behind the Aegis]

21. you are BAD!

I shouldn't be laughing...but I didn't expect THAT! :rofl: :evilgrin:

[lonestarnot]

22. Surprise is a spice of life!

:evilgrin:

[jerry611]

52. We don't really have the whole story...

What was in the ambulance. We also don't know if the Israelis knew what it was or that it was there. It could be a bomb that missed its intended target.

You are making a big assumption by saying that Israel intentionally targetted an Ambulance. It is a fact that terrorists have used ambulances in the past to transport arms or even explosives and use it as a bomb. We have seen them do that in Iraq several times.

[readmoreoften]

59. How about...

If Israel did this intentionally, it should be condemned.
If Israel did this unintentionally, amends should be made (not like true amends are really possible, but a gesture)
If Anyone is using ambulances to transport fighters, that nation should be condemned for such a practice.
If Israel bombed ambulances because they thought they were transporting fighters, they should say so and make amends.


War. It's like grade school. Like fighting over crayons but with dead bodies.

[Recursion]

67. Make amends?

If Israel bombed ambulances because they thought they were transporting fighters, they should say so and make amends.

No. Anyone using Red Cross / Crescent / Lion / Crystal insignias to transport combatants is in contravention of the Laws of War and is responsible for the consequences of that breach. Anyone who does that endangers not only doctors and nurses who use the insignia as authorized, but also wounded and prisoners of war who then cannot receive care because of disruptions to IRC.

Look... let's not be naive about the lengths to which a lot of Islamic militants are willing to go. I have seen with my own eyes mujuhadin in Iraq take positions in mosques and hospitals to fire on US troops and then act shocked, *shocked*, when US troops return fire. I have also seen militias carrying M16's (God knows where they got them) and targeting fleeing Iraqi civilians to blame their deaths on us.

I'm certainly not saying that all muslims, nor even all mujuhadin, are like that, but let's not kid ourselves here. Israel, for all their unlawful occupations and other deadly screw-ups, has in good faith abandoned their occupations of Lebanon and Gaza, and what they got in return was a series of attacks.

I honestly don't know who blew up that family on the beach and neither does anybody else here. I wouldn't put it past Israel, trying to start a war. Nor past Hamas, for the same reason. I also could believe either side made a mistake and didn't mean to hit them. The blood and lies are flying thick lately.

[porphyrian]

62. Sure. Hey Israel, bombing ambulances is not cool. - n/t

[tomreedtoon]

68. What's your problem? You never played Grand Theft Auto?

Bombing ambulances, using a hooker and then killing and robbing her, stealing cars and then running over the car's owner for extra points...this is what life is about! Learn from the children, my friend, and learn from the Republican companies that make the video games that teach the children these lessons.

[WinkyDink]

76. no, it isn't. it's also against the Geneva conventions to USE them AS

WEAPONS or for THIS use:
<quote>Suicide bomber found in Palestinian ambulance
On Wednesday morning IDF soldiers stopped a Palestinian Red Crescent ambulance for inspection and discovered a man on Israel's most wanted list hidding inside. Further inspection found an explosives belt hidden under a stretcher carrying a sick Palestinian boy. The boy’s family were also traveling in the ambulance.

Police said the explosive belt contained about ten kilos of explosives, nails and shrapnel. The ambulance driver claimed that he was transporting the explosives from the area of the West Bank city of Nablus at the request of an activist from the military wing of Arafat's Fatah organization.

Israeli security forces began inspecting Palestinian ambulances at checkpoints after it was discovered that emergency vehicles had been used to smuggle weapons and activists to flash points in the West Bank and Gaza. Wafa Idris, a female bomber who carried out a fatal bombing in Jerusalem in January is believed to have arrived at her destination in a Palestinian ambulance.<quote>

Source: http://www.ict.org.il/spotlight/det.cfm?id=757

[lumpy]

80. ICT is an Israeli organization.

Sorry, propaganda is flying all over the place these days so who to trust to tell the truth is the question.

[nadinbrzezinski]

92. You mayu want to check with the ICRC

they confirmed this as true and SLAPPED the Palestinian Red Crescent Socity for it. I follow these stories, bad habit of mine.

Or are you telling me the International Red Cross Comittee is also controlled by the Israelis

[Pavulon]

78. Fake

Whatever created that crater would have done more than that.

That is not blast damage.

This is a hit from a small missile.



Whatever made that crater was bigger than a hellfire.

[nadinbrzezinski]

90. I want to hear the full story

For Red Crescent ambulances have been used to transports bombs in the past.

By the by, as a former Red Cross medic I know how much of a no-no that is

[El Zopilote]

101. Why are American liberals anti-semitic?

Why are liberals in America anti-Israel and pro-Islamic? Israel and the Jewish people are the most liberal people in the world and always have been. They are the undeniable world leaders of any liberal cause. Because of powerful Jewish liberal influence (news media, public schools, universities, trade unions, film industry, business, etc.) they have helped my people to win Congressional approval for unconditional amnesty and an open border. The Jewish people are the vanguard of liberalism and all minorities are indebted to them. The Jewish people have been persecuted from day one. They understandably lead the way to push for civil rights for all, including Muslims.

I do not understand why American liberals are not solidly on the side of Israel during this conflict in the Mideast.