Are Israel's attacks / air strikes against Lebanon justified?

[Bretttido]

So there's a bunch of fighting going on in the Middle East. I'm not going to try and explain it specifically because someone will surely criticize my summation as being biased.

[Bretttido]

1. Hezbollah leader says ready for ‘open war’ with Israel

BEIRUT, Lebanon - Hezbollah leader Sheik Hassan Nasrallah said on Friday that his group is ready for “open war” with Israel and warned that an Israeli warship that has been firing missiles into southern Beirut will be destroyed.


Speaking defiantly in an audiotape aired on Hezbollah’s Al Manar television, Nasrallah addressed himself to Israelis, saying: “You wanted an open war and we are ready for an open war.”

“Look at the warship that has attacked Beirut, while it burns and sinks before your very eyes,” Nasrallah said. It was not clear whether he meant that the warship has already been attacked.

Full Story

(can't get link to work, it keeps converting (& sect) into a symbol)

[LSK]

2. killing innocent civilians is an act of terror

[blurp]

6. So allied bombings in WWII were acts of terror, then.

[slackmaster]

7. It was referred to at the time as "Total War"

The Germans started it when they bombed Pearl Harbor.

:dunce:

[LSK]

11. were the allies bombing in response the actions of a rogue terror group?

No, they were responding the actions of a COUNTRY that had invaded numerous other countries, that had declared war on the allies and had BOMBED CIVILIANS IN LONDON.

How can you not see the difference???

Please tell me.

:shrug:

[blurp]

15. So none of civilians of those countries were innocent?

There were no doubt many innocent civilians in Germany and Japan and Italy that didn't go along with those in power.

Yet they fell under the bombs like the rest.

That's terror (by your definition).

[LSK]

19. yes you can argue that they are acts of terror

However we created institutions such as the UN and the Geneva Conventions and the International Criminal court so we never repeat those mistakes again. However Israel is repeating these past acts of terror and one can argue that the US has done the same thing in Iraq.

There is no way to defend the approach Israel has taken.

Lets review.

4 soldiers are taken prisoner by a terrorist group that is not connected with any government. I repeat these prisonors are not the prisoners of any country.

So in response, Israel militarily attacks 1st Gaza and now the country of Lebanon. Destroys bridges, powerplants, shuts off water and trade to/from these places. They bomb residential areas because a suspected terrorist lives there. If some poor citizens live there - oh well.

They are punishing and killing a population who had nothing to do with the kidnapping.

How is this not an act of terror?

[Dark]

23. Perhaps you should include the numerous Israeli civilians killed by

terrorist bombers in there.

Frankly, I think Israel's had it up to here with trying to negotiate. They want to end this, and the only thing left to try, for them, is war.

I don't consider Israel's actions terror until they attack an innocent nation. Lebanon is to Hezbollah what Afghanistan was to Al-Qaeda. They are letting them stay and launch attacks from the diplomatic safety of Lebanese soil. That is an act of war.

[Bretttido]

26. "Terror", "Terrorism", and "Terrorists" to describe actions / people

is used far too much, imho. Lets just stick to the facts and leave the semantics behind.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Idioteque]

4. I supported Israel's right to get their soldiers back...

...but now they have gone WAY too far. I am also sad that our government doesn't think that Israel's response is disproportionate.

Our politicians like to talk about how the US is friends with Israel. Okay...part of being a friend is taking the keys before your friend starts driving drunk.

[sendero]

5. It is our blind, unbalanced support of the state..

.. of Israel that has now embroiled us in the "war on terror". They have Tom Sawyered us from day one.

There are no "good guys" in the middle east. A pox on all their houses.

[blurp]

9. No good guys?

There are no "good guys" in the middle east. A pox on all their houses.

So you have no preference between a liberal democracy and religious fanatical suicidal totalitarian anti-semitic bigots, then?

[Bretttido]

10. Nope, not a biased question there. Nope, not at all! n/t

[Dark]

21. Well, how is the question false? Israel is the closest thing to democracy,

and virtually all the other anti-israeli groups use religion to unite and justify themselves.

[Bretttido]

22. religious fanatical suicidal totalitarian anti-semitic bigots?

come on, do I really need to explain how this is biased? :eyes:

[Dark]

32. I didn't ask about bias. I asked how it wasn't true. n/t

They are fanatically religious, they have commited suicidal attacks, their leaders (Arafat, among others) are totalitarian, they're anti-semetics who want to drive the jews into the sea, and they absolutely hate Israel.

Plus, I remember watching them dancing and celebrating in the streets over 9-11. They hate us, as well.

That sounds pretty bigoted to me.

[Bretttido]

34. If I MUST expand...

As quoted by the spiritual leader of Hezbollah, Sheik Muhammad Husayn Fadlallah.

All those who seek peace with Israel are traitors to our cause, including the treasonous Yasir Arafat.

I don't believe Arafat ever had anything to do with Hezbollah...

They hate Israel, yes, but they are by no means Totalitarian. They represent a portion of the Lebanese government through the process of democratic elections. They are fanatically religious yes; but so is just about everyone is in the ME. They have committed suicide attacks, yes. You'll see no praise of them from me. However, it was both a biased and only partially true question.

http://almashriq.hiof.no/lebanon/300/320/324/324.2/hizballah/Fadlallah-Muhammad.html

[Hatalles]

14. Wow, just wow. What a terrible way to frame the question.

Could have been taken straight from cable news...

[Bretttido]

16. It was actually taken straight from faux news when comparing the US / Iraq

:sarcasm:

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ihaam]

Can others support Hizbullahs right to get their prisoners back

It makes no sense to me to kill 10's of civilians and destroy infrastructure to get 2 soldiers back.

That is not Israels intention..... This war which Israel has escalated by attacking Lebanon is purely to get back at them for the withdrawal from Southern Lebanon, for which Hizbullah was responsible.. call it pay-back time or revenge.


Are Palestinian suicide bombers justifiable because Israel has imprisoned 1000's of Palestinians??


If Israel has the right to destroy and kill innocent Lebanese civilians at will for the capture of 2 soldiers by hizbullah, what should the Palestinians be doing to free their 1000's of prisoners?


This whole episode could have ended with an exchange of the 2 Israelis (and 1 Palestinian) for 1000s of Arabs held in Israeli prisons without trial.

[Greyhound]

8. Noam Chomsky just said that the Israeli soldier kidnapping

was a response to the Israeli's kidnapping a Doctor and his brother. I don't know any more than any of you do what is really going on, but I do think we can agree that it needs to stop.

[blurp]

12. When, Hezbollah should have taken the high road, then.

Hezbollah has other options besides invading and kidnapping.

I guess this conflict could have been avoided if they had just used diplomatic options to get the Doctor and brother back.

Too bad, really.

[Bretttido]

13. Ditto for Isreal

[Dark]

18. When has Hezbollah EVER used diplomacy? n/t

[Dark]

17. Well, another poster put it simply: If Anti-Israelis were to renounce

violence and stop attacking Israel, there'd be no more violence.

If Israel were to renounce violence and stop attacking the Anti-Israeli forces, there'd be no more Israel.

So, yea, I'd say Israel is justified. They're tired of having rockets shot at them, bombers blow up their malls and teenagers' night clubs. They have given concessions (Gaza, Suez peninsula, etc.) and have yet to see a respite in the attacks.

And, despite what the 'unbiased' state run muslim newspapers may say in the Middle East, Israel doesn't specifically target civilians anymore than police target civilians.

Unfortunately, and I do mean unfortunately, casualties ARE a fact of war. People do die, which is why war should be avioded at all costs. But, in some cases, like this one, one side will not rest until the complete destruction of the other side.

That's when war becomes necessary, albeit a necessary evil.

[MadHound]

20. If the anti-Israeli forces renounced violence

Then there wouldn't be anymore Lebanon, Syria, etc. The West Bank, Golan Heights, and Gaza Heights are all testimony to Israel's unspoken goal to expand. The only things that has kept this in check somewhat is the armed forces opposing them, and the threat of world condemnation.

Frankly, if there was ever a case for massive UN peacekeeping forces intervening in an area, this is it. Keep all sides seperated until they are brought to the table, sit down and actually compromise on some things.

[Dark]

30. You're joking, right? Seriously, read history. When Israel fought in wars

where it expanded, it was attacked by its muslim states.

Israel doesn't have expansive goals. They've actually given back most of the land they acquired over the past 60 or so years.

And they aren't the only ones who subjugated the palestinians. Jordan gobbled up what Israel didn't.

[Bretttido]

35. Perhaps you should read some history

1917-1947

The Palestine problem became an international issue towards the end of the First World War with the disintegration of the Turkish Ottoman Empire. Palestine was among the several former Ottoman Arab territories which were placed under the administration of Great Britain under the Mandates System adopted by the League of Nations pursuant to the League's Covenant (Article 22) .

All but one of these Mandated Territories became fully independent States, as anticipated. The exception was Palestine where, instead of being limited to "the rendering of administrative assistance and advice" the Mandate had as a primary objective the implementation of the "Balfour Declaration" issued by the British Government in 1917, expressing support for "the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people".

During the years of the Palestine Mandate, from 1922 to 1947, large-scale Jewish immigration from abroad, mainly from Eastern Europe took place, the numbers swelling in the 1930s with the notorious Nazi persecution of Jewish populations. Palestinian demands for independence and resistance to Jewish immigration led to a rebellion in 1937, followed by continuing terrorism and violence from both sides during and immediately after World War II. Great Britain tried to implement various formulas to bring independence to a land ravaged by violence. In 1947, Great Britain in frustration turned the problem over to the United Nations.

1947-1977

After looking at various alternatives, the UN proposed the partitioning of Palestine into two independent States, one Palestinian Arab and the other Jewish, with Jerusalem internationalized (Resolution 181 (II) of 1947). One of the two States envisaged in the partition plan proclaimed its independence as Israel and in the 1948 war expanded to occupy 77 per cent of the territory of Palestine. Israel also occupied the larger part of Jerusalem. Over half the indigenous Palestinian population fled or were expelled. Jordan and Egypt occupied the other parts of the territory assigned by the partition resolution to the Palestinian Arab State which did not come into being.

In the 1967 war, Israel occupied the remaining territory of Palestine, until then under Jordanian and Egyptian control (the West Bank and Gaza Strip). This included the remaining part of Jerusalem, which was subsequently annexed by Israel. The war brought about a second exodus of Palestinians, estimated at half a million. Security Council resolution 242 (1967) of 22 November 1967 called on Israel to withdraw from territories it had occupied in the 1967 conflict.

In 1974, the General Assembly reaffirmed the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people to self-determination, national independence and sovereignty, and to return. The following year, the General Assembly established the Committee on the Exercise of the Inalienable Rights of the Palestinian People. The General Assembly conferred on the PLO the status of observer in the Assembly and in other international conferences held under United Nations auspices.

1977-1990

Events on the ground, however, remained on a negative course. In June 1982, Israel invaded Lebanon with the declared intention to eliminate the PLO. A cease-fire was arranged. PLO troops withdrew from Beirut and were transferred to neighboring countries after guarantees of safety were provided for thousands of Palestinian refugees left behind. Subsequently, a large-scale massacre of refugees took place in the camps of Sabra and Shatila.

In September 1983, the International Conference on the Question of Palestine, which was widely attended, adopted inter alia the Geneva Declaration containing the following principles: the need to oppose and reject the establishment of settlements in the occupied territory and actions taken by Israel to change the status of Jerusalem, the right of all States in the region to existence within secure and internationally recognized boundaries, with justice and security for all the people, and the attainment of the legitimate, inalienable rights of the Palestinian people.

In December 1987, a mass uprising against the Israeli occupation began in the occupied Palestinian territory (the intifadah). Methods used by the Israeli forces during the uprising resulted in mass injuries and heavy loss of life among the civilian Palestinian population.

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/ngo/history.html

[Bretttido]

25. That was Bush's rational for Iraq

The kidnapping of two soldiers did not make war a necessity. Israel was not on the verge of being destroyed. Speculating doomsday scenarios is the same way we got into the mess in Iraq. We didn't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud, remember? Thank god we attacked before it was too late!

[Dark]

29. By itself, this act does not constitute war. But take into account the

years of terrrorism against Israel.

If the Palestinians would adopt Ghandi and MLK Jr.'s methods of social change, then within a year things would begin to improve for them.

[mmonk]

24. Did the Lebanese order this?

[bridgit]

28. no, it's like ringing a door bell with an artillery round...

:thumbsdown:

[Bretttido]

31. Maybe they're trying to ring a door in Lebanon and they keep missing?

:shrug:

[bridgit]

33. sure i got'cha, reduce the entire landscape to rubble and have...

nothing left BUT the doorbell you could've rang to begin with :thumbsup: