Ultimately, is Hezbollah simply responding to the occupation?

[Boojatta]

?

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dipsydoodle]

4. Pardon my asking

what's trolling ?

[Robbien]

2. They are ignoring the current occupation and base their

actions totally on an occupation which occurred hundreds of years ago?

Yeah, right.

[Boojatta]

7. I thought I heard some diplomatic official say that the current trouble

did not start this summer but in 1948. Is it correct to focus attention on 1948 rather than this summer, but incorrect to look back to events long before 1948?

[Robbien]

13. Now I get it. Rome is as relevent as anything the media is churning

out these days.

[HardRocker05]

18. Well, one's as legit as the other. Is there a statute of limitations on

land theft? Another way to look at is, how many people here would be supporting Jews who were blowing up buses and pizza places in Germany, trying to get back the land and possessions that were stolen from them in WW2? Look, stealing land is not right, but neither is deliberate attacks against civilians.

[blonndee]

31. What about the deliberate attacks on FLEEING civilians in Lebanon?

You know, the vans full of children and all...?

[dipsydoodle]

3. Since when was the land

occupied by the Roman's called Israel ?

[The Magistrate]

11. The Province Most Closely Corresponding, Sir

Was called Judea. After the rebellion ended by destruction of the Herodian Temple, it was changed to Palestinae, a Latinization of Phillistine, the old enemy of the Hebrews. The provincial organizations changed a good deal through successive periods, of course: at one time there were four lapping parts of the area, but my maps are not immediately to hand to explain in more detail.

[dipsydoodle]

17. You didn't allow for the fact I'm english

"since when" is an expression of cynicism which in this instance means it wasn't called Israel at the time of the Roman occupation. See map in another thread below. As far as I'm aware there never was a country called Israel anywhere near that time. The Israelites were a group of tribes and as such were unlikely to have had a country each.

[The Magistrate]

19. If We Are Going To Approach It At That Level, Sir

The word "israel" carries the meaning "people of the god", and originally applied to all the various tribes that came to worship the diety Jah'weh during the latter Bronze Age in the Levant. This confederation split in two over quarrels that need not coincern us now into a northern portion and a southern portion, the former generally refered to as Israel and the latter as Judah. The northern area was conquered by the Assyrians, who expunged it from history as a political organization through their usual method of social decapitation, leaving the peasantry mostly intact to pay taxes and ruled by a collabrationist class raised up on imperial patronage. Some while later the southern portion was taken by Babylon, which applied similar techniques, but was only able to keep them in place a short time before falling to the emergent Persians themselves. The Persians sent back the various ruling strata the Babylonians had sequestered to their native lands as client kings, thus restoring Judah while it still was a recognizeable political entity, though there return was not without local resistance. Passing over the Alexandrian wave of conquest and inheritance among his various generals, the successful Hasmodean rebels of Judah managed the conquest of Samaria and Galilee, which comprise the approximate area of the northern portion of the original tribal confederation. Certain miscalcularions by these rulers brought them under Roman overlordship not long before the end of the Roman Republic and its conversion to an open Imperium, and it is at this point the various Roman provincial designations commence.

[dipsydoodle]

25. The cynicism within the original poll questions

was lost on me - unfortunately. I was being pedantic and you deserve my apologies which I hope you'll accept. Thanks for your second reply which has helped enlighten me - Sir.

[The Magistrate]

27. No Apology Necessary, Sir

I am just glad we have stopped short before I had to go hunt through my bookshelves for serious detail....

In my view, the member who put this poll before us was attempting a bit of levity, but with a bit of serious point concealed within it, namely that efforts of the several sides in this conflict to mine history for material of use in the present day sometimes pushes a bit too far, and that the continual recourse to old events for justification for acts in the present does not help the situation.

"The key to ruling the Balkans is to provide the people continually with fresh grievances, lest they fall to remembering the old ones."

[Boojatta]

15. I don't have a starting date for you.

If you consider the wording to be incorrect then you might want to contact the people in charge of various websites such as the following:

http://www.museum.upenn.edu/Canaan/index.html

http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~semitic/HOAI/adultmain.cgi

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05313/603007.stm

[The Magistrate]

5. Not Bad, Sir

It is certainly the case that the refusal to let go of an old grudge is a serious complication in the present day troubles of the Near East.

Hezbollah might be said to be reacting to "the occupation", but by their use of the word, "occupation" means not the presence of Israelis on the lands overrun in '67, but the presence of Israel as a state in the first place, "occupying" Moslem land.

[Igel]

9. Although one cannot overlook the provocation

of the Shebaa Farms, the 'occupied territory' that many refer to in order to seem more respectable and more, well, occupied.

Without that, their larger concern would have no ... um ... covering.

[The Magistrate]

12. What Is The Acreage Of That, Sir?

Or how many hectares, if that is your accustomed measure.

[Igel]

21. Approx. 35 sq km, if

sources such as the Wikipedia are to be trusted.

It is Israeli-occupied territory gifted to Lebanon with no official notice or paperwork, recognized solely by Lebanon and Syria. Sufficient for those who want to believe it's justification for a liberation struggle to point to it as justification, but for no one else.

As I said, it serves as a provocation.

[TechBear_Seattle]

6. Rome is irrelevant

The current occupation by Israel of Palestinian territories is far more likely to be at issue.

[Recursion]

14. I'm guessing his point was that...

...there was not a Palestine from the time of (probably mythical) Joshua until Rome diasporized the Jews. Then there was for a couple of thousand years. Then there was not a Palestine and just Israel, then there kind of was a Palestine, and now nobody's sure anymore.

[dipsydoodle]

8. Map of the Holy Land

So - where's Israel ?

[Boojatta]

22. Evidently the term "ancient Israel" in the Original Post left no doubt

in your mind about what location was being referred to.

Just as a map labeled "Egypt at beginning of Middle Kingdom 2130 BC" would not convince me that, in the year 2130 BC, Egyptians used our alphabet or our dating system, the map you display doesn't convince me that it is incorrect to use the term "ancient Israel" the way that I used it.

However, if you like, I can use the term "Palestine" for that place at that time when I am writing messages specifically for you.

[Marie26]

10. What occupation?

Didn't Israel withdraw from Lebanon?

[Igel]

28. So you understood the point of the poll, I see. n/t

[Marie26]

30. Totally. :) nt

[theboss]

16. PJ O'Rourke (who I am sure everyone here hates) had an intersting story

It was a review of a book called "The Jewish War" written about the Jewish uprising that lead to the destruction of the Temple. Basically, it traces every problem in the Middle East back to that event.

It's not a completely unbelievable idea.

[The Magistrate]

20. There is Something To That, Sir

[Boojatta]

23. One person selected the option "No, Rome never occupied ancient Israel..."

Could we get some details to go with that selection?

[Boojatta]

24. kick for more replies. e.o.m.

[rman]

26. other: Israeli occupation

[Radical Activist]

29. Is Rome still occupying the area today?

This argument is so ridiculous.