May I remind everyone that Hezbolla are those nice folks who killed

[Redstone]

241 US Marines?

On edit: Them, and Ronald Reagan.

Redstone

[theboss]

1. Yep...they are the Elvis Presely of Suicide Bombers

And now they hold seats in a Parliament.

Good times all around.

[im10ashus]

28. LMAO!

Not to make light of the situation, and surely I am going to hell, but :rofl:

[SPKrazy]

46. That's Hamas

not Hezbollah

[ButterflyBlood]

79. No, Hezbollah holds seats in Parliament as well

The Lebanese Parliament. Hamas is in the Palestinean Parliament.

[peacebird]

2. The Israeli response was completely disproportional to the initial act.

Israel is not in the right on this one.

[Robbien]

18. The initial act was Israel killing a family on a beach in Gaza

not the media hyped up story of a kidnapped soldier. The kidnapped soldier was the second act in response to the first. The third act was Israel bombing all the civilian support structures in Gaza leaving them without water and electricity.

Yeah, your are right, Isreal is not in the right on this one.

[Tempest]

21. According to Chomsky

It all started on June 24th when Israel went into the West Bank and kidnapped a doctor and his son.

On June 25th, Hamas kidnapped the Israeli soldier.

[Robbien]

25. Which is true, but never reported in mass media

the only thing the corporate media shills picked up was the bombing of the family on the Gaza beach so I'm going with the action of which most people are aware.

[BeTheChange]

42. Don't mention the 7000 prisoners they have exchanged for 19 in the last 30

years....

I think Israel is obviously not exercising the restraint it should be. But Hezbollah is no United Way.

[Cvortex_10]

35. And the Chompsky worshipers come out of the woodwork

Wait for it... wait for it....

(I swear, I don't know whats worse...frothing extremists on the right or the frothing extremists on the left).

[tkmorris]

36. If you want to make a cogent argument, do it.

Calling people names doesn't cut it, and is a hallmark of trollery. Considering you just got here, you might want to avoid appearing that way.

But welcome to DU. :beer:

[Cvortex_10]

45. Thanks for the welcome!

I didnt call anyone a name, only that theres a certain faction out there they do in fact worship Chompsky and take everything he says as the gospel. Now comes the part where those certain people will start to defend their dogma.

[Selatius]

95. With respect to June 24th, he is correct.

There is no need to be a Chomskyite to notice two people whom Israel claims were members of Hamas were abducted from Gaza even though Israel supposedly pulled out of Gaza last year.

[Clark2008]

41. It's "frothing" to report the truth?

If you think Israel is innocent in all this, you're badly mistaken.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Remember that and cooler heads will prevail.

[Cvortex_10]

44. I never said that anyone was guilty or not.

You seem to be assuming a lot where there is no evidence. I simply made an observation that practically all the Chompskyists are about as dogmatic and have their reality hermetically sealed as any Randian...

[Sapphocrat]

68. I assume this much:

Continuing to deliberately misspell "Chomsky" isn't going to help your cause -- whatever it may be.

[Tempest]

61. Provide evidence Chomsky is an extremist

Here's your chance to rise or fall, newby.

[H2O Man]

98. "Frothing," no less.

Chomsky seems like something other than an aggressive, violent, "frothing" fellow to me. I'd like to hear how he is viewed as "frothing."

[Cvortex_10]

107. Spelling aside, you seem to lack honesty...

when you state that I said "Chomsky" was an extremist. Show me where I said that. I simply alluded to those worshipers of his that seem at least as dogmatic as the Coulter worshipers. I never said he himself was one.

I still view those types as having hermetically sealed worldviews and even if facts contrary to thier view were dropped in their lap, they would find any rationalization possible to not have to deal with it. Its generally a natural human defence device, but it can be overcome with a tad bit of effort.

So ultimately, your putting up a straw man and I dont have to provide evidence for statements I didnt make.

Thanks old timer.

[newspeak]

110. well, let's see

Chomsky at least knows history, whereas, Coulter has repeatedly made errors about history. Of course, she just may be one of those "revisionists" that Elizabeth Dole likes to talk about.:think:

[Cvortex_10]

119. Any comments on your error?

I see you didnt mention your statement that I called Chomsky an extremist when I didnt. Was this intentional oversight or accidental?

[FujiZ1]

108. wow go figure.

Odd enough there are far left people on a website entitled democratic underground, but then they go around believing a man who has surrounded himself in history and current events his whole life. I like your anarchy sign.

[Cvortex_10]

112. Thanks. I like it too

I tend toward anarchism myself, although I'm sure you'll see just because I don't "tow the party line" Ill get attacked like I was Ann Coulter herself. This place doesn't seem to tolerate a wide range of views exactly - at least from my interpretation.

I'm also sure you'll see a lot of people denounce even the existence of a "extremist left", because if there was such a thing, they would have something in common with extremist righties.

I'm going to fall probably into a moderate class on a lot of views and an extremist on other views -- which I'm sure theres others here that could share that description.

In all, I recognize how much bias can prevent one from any pretense at objectivity and do my best to try to counter the insidious beast of bias. Others will choose a different course, embrace their world view as the only possible correct one and start burning witches.

[FujiZ1]

115. It's cute how you pre-empt yourself.

Towing the party line has nothing to do with criticizing Chomsky; it just devalues yourself and your argument. For one you are equating Chomsky and Coulter, and that is just about as disingenuous as you can get, considering Chomsky has worldwide credentials and publishes works which represent well documented factual evidence while Coulter has absolutely no credentials outside of the US and publishes to push agenda and make bank. Secondly you are lambasting Chomsky:

"I still view those types as having hermetically sealed worldviews and even if facts contrary to their view were dropped in their lap, they would find any rationalization possible to not have to deal with it. It’s generally a natural human defense device, but it can be overcome with a tad bit of effort."

without any evidence to prove your point. Prove he never changes his mind, but don't insult 95% of the readership here with some bullshit blanket statement. Finally, I don't know if you follow national Democratic politics, but I have never seen one senator or house member quote Chomsky or give him credit. Being a fan or worshipper of Chomsky is surely not a part of "towing the line."

It's also a frankly disappointing day when someone on this fucking website equates far-left and far-right as polar equals. I've always been far-left and prided myself on the time and effort spent learning the facts and balancing the truth, while the time I've spent trying to understand the far-right has always boiled down to right-wing talking points and blind faith in god's way.

No one here gives a shit if you want to disagree or not tow the line, but unlike the far-right they are going to require evidence, otherwise you will continue to get the response you do. What did you expect anyway?

By the way, the anarchy thing was irony, because Chomsky himself believes in a form of anarchy.

[Cvortex_10]

122. What point is it you wanted proof on exactly?

I never said towing the party line had anything to do with Chomsky, so your entire tirade is a straw man.

I understand if you as a far leftist wouldnt want to be equated with far righties...once again, a natural mental defence. You dont want to think of your self to be like them. Those of us who dont ascribe to either far right or far left see both extremes for what they are of course -- the extreme ends of a political spectrum.

Ultimately, dont be so defensive. Try to understand that theres billions of perspectives out there and noone has a monopoly on them. Not you, not me, not Chomsky.

[FujiZ1]

126. lol

Ok red herring guy, I want proof that Chomsky is a blind liberal who wouldn't change his mind on something even if contradictory evidence fell in his lap. By the way the amount of irony evident in all of your posts speaks enough about your own defense, and I don't think it says much.

[Cvortex_10]

127. Ok straw man guy...

I never said Chomsky was dogmatic, only that a good chunk of his worshipers are, in my opinion.

Once again, you prove your arguing something totally not related to the thread.

Irony is one thing, but doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is just insanity. You are consistantly arguing points that noone made.

Maybe if you try arguing against a real point I made instead of some fictional construct of yours, you might get better results?

[lectrobyte]

114. Adding the 'p' to Chomsky, that's like the most hilarious thing

ever. And even more ironic given that you have the anarchy symbol as your avatar, and are complaining about frothing extremists. Welcome to DU!

[Cvortex_10]

125. Glad I could make you smile!

and thanks for the welcome!

[MsMagnificent]

136. Especially in light of his first post here

I like also the whining (already!) about lack of tolerance:

"This place doesn't seem to tolerate a wide range of views exactly"

still, we're the intolerant ones don't you know... :eyes:

[mitchum]

130. And the Chomsky haters slither out from beneath their rocks

[Cvortex_10]

133. And where did I say that?

Man, this is "put words into my mouth" day. I never said I hated Chomsky, only that his little cult of those who take his word as divine and handed down from on high as infallible, needs to learn to be independent thinkers.

I actually like some of his ideas myself, but not all of them.

Its just intellectually dishonest to posit that anyone who doesn't worship him must therefore hate him.

[KittyWampus]

58. I've been searching for a link to Chomsky's story but haven't found one

If any DU'er has it or can track it down... please post? grovel grovel

[Wonk]

87. link

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/07/14/146258&mode=thread&tid=25

[KittyWampus]

132. How is Chomsky the only person privy to this info? I honestly can't find

any other mention. But thanks very much for that link. :)

[Swede]

116. Gee,24 hours to dig a 700 foot tunnel.

They sure have amazing technology.

[MsMagnificent]

134. link please?

to the kidnapping of doctor

Googling 'Chomsky Israel kidnapped doctor' isn't getting any recent results (but lots of old, interesting, still-appropriate & meaningful info)

[sandnsea]

24. There were attacks before that

They just go on and on and on.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/05/28/israel.lebanon/index.html

[Tempest]

26. There were attacks

But not the all out warfare we're seeing now.

[sandnsea]

51. Gaza is not what set this off

There were Israel-Lebanon border attacks long before the Gaza incident, and the Gaza incident is the same as these others anyway, Palestinians lobbing mortars into Israeli towns.

[madeline_con]

31. Thanks for pointing that out. n/t

:think:

[Pavulon]

54. Last I read

that was not a 155 round. But a mine.

[KittyWampus]

60. Last I Read It Was An ISRAELI ROUND. The Israeli "investigators"

didn't even bother to go to the actual site and see actual evidence. They pulled their bullshit story out of their asses.

From Britian's TimesOnline:

"However, sceptics (of Israel's denial) noted that the Israeli team did not visit the site. They also pointed out that a mine would have had to remain intact for hours on a beach trampled by Palestinian holidaymakers, only to explode after Israel began shelling the area.

Numerous onlookers said that the fatal shell was the third in a series of about five, the first two landing just north of the picnic site and prompting the Ghalia family and other bathers to begin packing up.

The Times found two other identical fresh craters nearby, roughly where the witnesses indicated. After carrying out an independent inspection, Marc Garlasco, a senior military analyst with Human Rights Watch, said yesterday that he was “quite certain” that the Israeli findings were wrong.

Mr Garlasco, a former Pentagon official and specialist in battle damage assessment, produced shrapnel that he recovered from the beach marked “55MM”.

“It is highly likely that it was an artillery-delivered 155mm shell,” he said. Mines tended to cause lower body injuries, whereas most of the victims suffered head and upper torso wounds, he added.

“We have to look at all the possibilities, but all the evidence points to a 155mm shell fired by the Israelis as what killed the Palestinians on the beach.”

[SPKrazy]

48. Although They Have Had Restraint Against Hezbollah For Some Time Now

it does seem like the cork popped on 6 years of anger and frustration for not going after Hezbollah, which seems out of proportion unless you look at the big picture

then it just looks like the same old same old one side killing and the other side killing and so on and so forth

[checkmate1947]

103. Bigger Stick

so what you are saying is, if you hit me with a stick and I pick up a bigger stick and hit you back then I am wrong and it is disproporrional

[Zynx]

128. So I assume you think what Hezbollah has done is just fine?

Need I remind you that Israel has put up with rocket attacks from Hezbollah for years now with no response. They finally had enough.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SoCalDem]

4. I doubt that people here are praising Hezbolla or Hamas

BUT...failed leadership and putrid US policy BREEDS groups like these. Are they really so different from ANY "rebel" group?

MY freedom-fighter/rebel/underground fighter is someone else's insurgent/terrorist/evildoer..

If only we could re-do all the unwise land-management decisions made when the Ottoman Empire was carved up..

But we cannot, so this is the hand we have..and we must play it :(

[CBGLuthier]

5. And why were the marines there?

Because Israel invaded Lebanon in 82.

Also, may I point out that Hezbollah denied responsibility so your accusation is unfounded.

Really, there is no moral high road. All countries have walked the low path and continue to do so.

[adriennui]

9. oh of course hizbollah is such a source of truth.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

15. That Attack Was Cold

As I remember those Marines were sleeping in their barracks.

I understand bad things happen in war but it was still a "bad" act.

[Tempest]

23. And they were still there because Reagan wouldn't move them out

Reagan was told it was dangerous to leave the U.S. troops in Beirut but he left them there as targets.

It wasn't until after the bombing Reagan moved them out of the country.

Reagan was the original cut-and-run.

[SensibleAmerican]

83. Ken Lay denies swindling millions

That makes him innocent?

[LSK]

6. ummm

Hezbollah was conceived in 1982 by a group of Muslim clerics after the Israeli invasion of Lebanon.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4314423.stm

[Redstone]

37. And that excuses them?

Redstone

[whistle]

7. Ronald Reagan was killed by Hesbollah?

[helderheid]

10. bwahahah

:spray:

[SlipperySlope]

8. K&R

[The Stranger]

11. Wow, so you are trying to excuse the bombing of innocent civilians

currently taking place?

I never knew ya.

[acmejack]

20. Almost every cause can excuse killing innocents when it is their cause!

Regrettable collateral damage, don't you know? Ben-Gurion & the King David Hotel is an example. These people are so driven, so absolutely certain of righteousness of their cause they will sacrifice their own life, obviously the life of another means nothing at all to them.

[Minnesota Libra]

12. Oh boy, there you go..........

....trying to be fair again. Don't you realize Hezbolla can do no wrong??? They have an excuse for everything they do. :sarcasm: We aren't supposed to remind anyone that Hezbolla might just have a dark side. :sarcasm:

[Redstone]

71. No, I don't suppose we are, judging by the responses. It's like those

terrorist motherfuckers are the Middle East version of the Elks Club.

I give up.

Redstone

[MADem]

13. I remember that like it was yesterday...NT

[The_Casual_Observer]

14. Perhaps we should have gone there rather than Iraq.

[bluestateguy]

16. Point well taken

They are terrorists, not heroes. Saying that does not make you an apologist for Israel, whose policies I have issues with as well.

[Bretttido]

17. Let's be sure to hold grudges against people that are most likely dead

That way we can bring about world peace super duper fast! And don't forget all those Americans that the Germans and Japs killed back in the 40's. If we take the # of people killed divided by the number of years that have passed, those guys are way worse! We must support all countries who attack them! Carry on. :sarcasm:

[Redstone]

38. Balls. They're fucking terrorists pure and simple.

Why, exactly, do you feel it's important to defend them?

Redstone

[High Plains]

56. Sorry, it's not so simple just because you wish it were so.

Hezbollah is a mass movement representing Lebanese Shiites, it is a political movement--probably the single strongest actor in Lebanese politics--and it is a paramilitary guerrilla formation.

It carried out a provocative act in its cross-border raid on Israeli soldiers--not civilians. It is now rocketing Israeli towns in response to the Israeli bombing campaign.

It killed those invader Marines in an act of war.

Simply calling Hezbollah evil terrorists is simple-minded.

[Redstone]

66. Excuses, excuses.

Redstone

[High Plains]

124. Excuses, excuses.

Tell me again how Israel is justified in murdering 82 people (so far) and destroying the civilian infrastructure of an entire country.

[ButterflyBlood]

80. Hezbollah has been launching almost daily rocket attacks for years

They just didn't start now. They've killed plenty of civilians before this, in addition to the Christian villages they massacred during the civil war*. And I think any type of armed religious fundamentalist is evil, period.

*And yes, I do not about Shabrit and Shatila and other Falange atrocities but that's not relevant to the situation. Two wrongs do not make a right.

[cantstandbush]

123. In response to Israeli occupation and cross-border bombings and

assassinations and kidnappings. Keep the record straight.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tnlefty]

22. And Anwar Sadat was assassinted why? I seem to remember for entering

into a peace agreement with Israel. PM Rabin was assassinated why? I seem to remember it being reported that he wanted a peace agreement with Palestinians that hard-line Israelis' didn't want to accept. So what exactly is your point?

Mine is that none of these events exist in a vacuum and there is enough blame to go around, but this eye for an eye just keeps the deaths coming.

[rug]

27. And?

Is that relevant to today's events? Or are you announcing cheerleader tryouts?

[Redstone]

67. You bet your ass it's relevant. It's the same fucking people.

Is THAT relevant enough for you?

Redstone

[rug]

77. No it's not.

If you want to cheerlead the destruction of civilians by the IDF because of what Hezbollah's done, have the balls to say it plain.

[mmonk]

29. I don't like Hezbollah.

I don't like the neocon game plan either and that is what I'm worried about.

[madeline_con]

30. Weren't they democratically elected? n/t

[Egalitariat]

49. You're thinking about Hamas***

nm

[madeline_con]

50. My bad! I sure am.

:blush:

[Redstone]

69. So if the KKK was "democratically elected" in the US, that would excuse

them for killing black people?

Redstone

[cali]

32. Your thread got tinfoiled.

It's also worth remembering that H'zbollah bombed a Jewish Community Center in Buenos Aires in 1994, killing 95 people, a number of them small children from a daycare.

But, heck they're just freedom fighters.

[cracksquirrel]

39. Finally the sane people show up...

This thread is like World Zionist Conspiracy bizzarro world on crack... what happened to us on the progressive end of politics being reasonable and educated people?
*shrug*
*goes back to smashing rocks together, because that seems the most productive thing to do given present conditions*

[slackmaster]

52. H'zbollah?

Needs to buy a vowel.

Yes, they are murderous assholes.

[Name removed]

91. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Warren DeMontague]

33. Stop. What you don't realize is that Israel is the source of all PNAC evil

Why, just look at this picture of Bush playing Kissy-Face with Ariel Sharon.



Well, I mean, that could be Ariel Sharon.

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. LMAO

And sharon looks VERY haelthy in this piccie... his stroke was just a master stroke of propaganda

:-)

I needed a good laugh

[Jim Sagle]

40. Even as we post, he's alive and well and golfing with Ken Lay.

[The Straight Story]

43. I am not sure why people defend Hezbolla

Bitching about Israel is one thing, but Hezbolla is a bunch of thugs.

I don't see why people can't bitch about both :)

[RummyTheDummy]

53. Here's to that

Neither side can claim any moral high ground.

[newspeak]

113. BINGO!!!

Neither side has the moral high ground!!!!!

[walldude]

55. I'm not sure why people who defend Hezbolla in this situtation

are labeled as anti-Israel or pro terrorist. I'd say neither the Palestinians nor the Israelies have been acting like grown ups for hundreds of years now, and we shouldn't be involved in a war that's been raging since before we were even a country. My take on the issue is both Israel and Lebanon are being played by the puppeteers. This escalation is totally out of proportion with the events leading up to it. There is something deeper going on here. My tin foil hat is buzzing like crazy.

[mmonk]

65. hundreds of years?

Where do you get that? The modern state of Israel was formed in 1948.

[walldude]

118. Sorry I meant thousands of years... Here:

http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm

[mmonk]

135. Modern Israel isn't ancient Israel.

[Redstone]

76. People who defend Hezbolla are labeled "Pro-Terrorist" because they are.

Why is it so hard for people to understand that there ARE terrorist groups, and that this is one of them? They have NO redeeming qualities. All they want to do is to kill people.

"Freedom Fighters," my ass. They're nothing but murderous thugs.

Redsotne

[ButterflyBlood]

81. AMEN! n/t

[wellst0nev0ter]

97. Where Was Hezbollah Before 1982?

Oh, wait, now I remember. Before 1982, Hezbollah were Shiites caught between a proxy war intensified by the Israeli invasion. If the invasion effectively caused the creation of Hezbollah back then, how will a heavy-handed response end the problem now?

Sure I'd say a pox on both their houses, but the fact that Israel has a history of supporting a bunch of Islamist terrorists makes them a winner of this turkey contest.

[walldude]

120. I have no problem understanding there are terrorist groups

but in all your posts in this thread you have not said anything to make me believe they are at fault here. All you've done is claim Hezbolla is a pure terrorist group, and while that may be true I certainly don't see Israel as being totally innocent in all of this, so I can't support your "kill em' all" mentality.

[mmonk]

138. So they were created in a vacuum to only exist to kill people?

Interesting thought process. By the way, criticism of stupid moves by the Israeli government to escalate all situations isn't supporting Hezbollah or terrorism.

[Redstone]

72. Thank you for your rationality once again. Well said.

Redstone

[leesa]

47. Certainly. And events like this will never stop until we stop financing

Israel's brutalizing of her neighbors.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

57. Well, Israel murdering Lebanese civilians will help...won't it?

“What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy.” - Gandhi

[killbotfactory]

59. Yep, soldiers in a war-zone are invalid targets

Just so long as they are Americans.

[Redstone]

73. So it's OK with you that they died?

Redstone

[killbotfactory]

78. No. But In a war, soldiers are legitimate targets

That's why the US government doesn't count attacks on our soldiers in Iraq as "terrorism".

[ButterflyBlood]

82. Right, Hezbollah attacked legitimate targets in their noble struggle...

To establish a fundamentalist Shiite state in Lebanon and abolish all religious minorities. Freedom fighters indeed :sarcasm:

[killbotfactory]

85. WTF? Who said they were freedom fighters?

And are soldiers not legitimate targets in a war-zone?

Hezbollah has done other shit to condemn, but so has Israel, the US, and pretty much every other nation involved in the region. War is hell.

[ButterflyBlood]

86. Pretty much anyone defending them

Hezbollah's actions against our marines was just as valid as Nazi offensives against our forces. It doesn't matter if they're targeting "legitimate" targets, they're still scum, period, and don't deserve any defense.

[killbotfactory]

89. Defending?

I'm just not outraged or surprised that people would actually fight back against us.

[ButterflyBlood]

90. I'm not suprised the Germans fought back either in the 40s

But that doesn't mean I had an ounce of symapthy for them

[killbotfactory]

92. Germany declared war on the US

I guess, technically, we were fighting back against them.

But, anyway, if the US goes to war, we should be prepared to accept the consequences.

[H2O Man]

99. A desperate attempt

on your part to bring facts and rational thought into this debate. Safe to assume you support the evil-doers.

[The Straight Story]

74. Sure they were targets. Now Hizbolla is a target too :) (nt)

[NNN0LHI]

62. When our ships began shelling Beirut I knew things weren't going to be good

In 1983, a bloody civil war was raging in Lebanon, and U.S. naval forces were offshore to protect U.S. interests and U.S. Marines who had landed in the war-torn country. On September 19, after a period in which U.S. ships fired when U.S. position were attacked, USS Virginia (CGN 38) and USS John Rogers (DD 983) fired 338 rounds from their 5-inch guns in support of Lebanese Army forces defending the strategically important village of Sug el Gharb in the Shouf Mountains east of Beirut. This signaled a shift in U.S. policy, and on 25 September, New Jersey took up station off Beirut.

On 28 November, the U.S. government announced that New Jersey would be retained off Beirut although her crew would be rotated. On 14 December, New Jersey fired 11 projectiles from her 16-inch guns at hostile positions inland of Beirut. This is the first 16-inch shells fired for effect anywhere in the world since New Jersey ended her time on the gunline in Vietnam in 1969.

On 8 February 1984, New Jersey fired almost 300 shells at Druze and Syrian positions in the Bekka Valley east of Beirut. Some 30 of these massive projectiles rained down on a Syrian command post, killing the general commanding Syrian forces in Lebanon and several other senior officers. This was the heaviest shore bombardment since the Korean War.

http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/ships/battleships/newjersey/bb62-nj.html

[burythehatchet]

63. Hezbollah is BAD=

Saddam is BAD.

Same shit different monster same result.

[shance]

70. Checkmate.

n/t

[JI7]

64. we always knew about Hezbolla, the question is why didn't we do anything ?

and instead the Chimp set out for Iraq and the mess we have there. all of these problems existed before. what is going on now is a result of all of those things.

a President who cared and understood would have been working on these issues from the start.

[Redstone]

75. Thank you, THANK you! That's what I was trying to point out!

These are the REAL bad guys, but can we do anything about them (or the North Koreans)?

No, we can't, because we're fighting the people who were NOT our real enemies (though they are now, and rightly so).

Or, as you say, there would have been some diplomacy and maybe this wouldn't have happened at all.

I despair for our future. Not just we Americans, but all of us.

Redstone

[Selatius]

96. To be frank, there are a lot of bad guys in Lebanon, not just Hezbollah

The Lebanese civil war has left a lot of bad blood that still lingers to this day. If Lebanon wants to deal with Hezbollah, they will deal with them, and we simply don't have the grounds or the right to force an issue that only the people of Lebanon can handle alone unless you want Israel to undo the first free election Lebanon has had in decades in their Cedar Revolution.

After almost two decades of civil war and invasion in the 1970s and 1980s, I can understand why they would not want to provoke a second civil war over Hezbollah.

[Balbus]

84. Don't you realize that Hezbolla is literally surrounded by

hundreds of million people that want them eradicated from the face of the earth? They've had to suffer suicide bombings, kidnappings, bus-bombers, rockets, etc, etc, etc...

Or wait, do I have that backwards...

[blitzen]

88. May I remind everyone that Americans are those nice folks who

killed countless Native Americans?

They fact that "they" killed some of "us" in the past means very little, since "we" have killed plenty of "them."

There may be excellent reasons to criticize Hezbollah, and there may be reasons to defend them. But jingoist outrage isn't worth much. We need to know the details of the political situation.

[Violet_Crumble]

93. Apparently we're all supposed to conveniently forget that...

See, if we go into superheated jingoistic mode, we can all sit and shriek to high heaven with better and more descriptive words about how horribly evil Hezbollah is and accuse DUers who mention factual stuff about them that doesn't call them murdering nasty horrible disgusting ugly bad-breathed toads of being supporters of terrorism. And I have seen this done a few times now at DU...

[killbotfactory]

94. Apparently..

The world is easier to understand when everything is black and white.

[DistressedAmerican]

100. Might I Remind You That We Had No Fucking Business Being There

in the first place.

I never understand people that act like there is some obvious evil in attackig foreign troops occupying your land.

Who here wouldn't you do the same if they were here occupying us?

Nice try at justifying this. But it holds no more weight than the rockets you were going on about. They have only killed 8 people in 5 years yet, you wanted us to believe that this was some major threat that had to be dealth with in this manner.

Wrong. This is yet another act of Israeli agression and it will not improve a damn thing.

Remember it was Israel's occupation of Lebanon in the 1980's that CREATED Hezbollah. What will this action create for us?

This action is pure bullshit as are weak ass attempts to justify it.

[MadHound]

101. May I remind you the Israel are those nice folks who killed

Thirty four US Navy men onboard the USS Liberty.

Equally as valid an arguement.

[Name removed]

104. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MadHound]

102. Oh, and another thing

It is nowhere near certain that Hezbollah launched the attack. In fact Hezbollah, Iran and Syria deny any responsibility for the attack. However several Shia military groups do claim credit with one of them, the Free Islamic Revolutionary Movement, actually naming two of the bombers as Abu Mazen, 26, and Abu Sijaan, 24.

So I suppose we'll never know for certain who killed those men, other than RR's stupidity in putting them in harm's way like he foolishly did.

[The Count]

105. I recall Reagan also invaded the wrong country in response.

GOP is geographically challenged.

[NNN0LHI]

109. Yea but them Grenadians put up one hell of a fight

All twelve of them.

Don

[Octafish]

106. Then Reagan did BUSINESS with Iran.

And President Pruneface had given ISRAEL the green light to do business with Iran from Day One, which was then fighting Iraq.

These Israeli arms sales apparently were payback for the GOP's October Surprise negotiations with the Iranian mullahs, Hezbollah's big backers.

[treestar]

111. Everybody does rotten things in war

Nobody in the M.E. is totally innocent or totally guilty, and that includes the US.

[OzarkDem]

117. All the more reason to deal with them intelligently

instead of exploiting them for a political agenda, as the GOP has always done.

[Minstrel Boy]

121. How about I inform you Israel has so far killed 100, only 3 of whom

were not innocents?

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,19806422-1702,00.html

Hezbollah is not paying the price, and it is not even the target. Israel is baiting Iran into action with Lebanese blood, which they expect will then precipitate the US "finishing the job" in the Middle East.

[mitchum]

129. Don't you mean Cut 'n' Run Ronald Reagan?

[alfredo]

131. Reagan should hold some responsibility for those deaths.

First we were to be neutral peacekeepers, but Reagan took sides by shelling the Muslim forces. He then ignored the pleading of a Marine officer to allow fortification of the barracks. There were no barriers and one unarmed guard on duty that day. Our Marines were sitting ducks. The only person who got punished was the officer that complained about the lack of protection.

[MsMagnificent]

137. You're right, they've done some terrible things

Does that mitigate or cancel out, therefore, the terrible things being done unto them?