DU makes me sad

[uppityperson]

How the hell can anyone expect humans to continue to exist, to have there not be wars, not be killings, not be bad things happening, for people to be able to figure out how to be able to work together? Yes, there will always be some bad people, I am not hoping for Utopia, but just for people to work together and be decent.

I have gotten sad this week, reading comments on DU towards other DUers (trolls aside) that are nasty and nasty and nasty. How can we hope anything positive for the world, for humanity as a whole if there are this many people even here being nasty towards each other? Can we not embrace the fact that we hold different opinions and that there are many ways to get to the same end? Must we be nasty to each other?

I am very grateful for those who do not participate in this crap, and also greatly appreciate DU for keeping up with the news, but wish humans had evolved further socially and emotionally to be humane, to work together.

[buff2]

1. Can't we all just get along?

:shrug: :hi:

[meisje]

2. They are the same one who will wonder why we lost in 06 and 08

[purduejake]

3. You participate by being affected...

Ignore the people who are here to be nasty. I know it's much easier said than done, but know even if you find yourself under attack on this board, there are plenty out there who agree with you. We're not going to agree on anything and passion is good - it brings about change.

[AlCzervik]

4. well if it makes you feel any better, your name always makes me giggle

i picture and uppity person stamping their foot on the ground and raising your fist in the air.

[uppityperson]

14. Thanks,I cut my hair off&dyed it blue today, now I laugh looking in mirror

3/4inch blue hair always makes me laugh and UPjr helped me.

[Redstone]

5. It's OK, m'dear. Just the human condition. It may be sad, but

there it is. Hang in there. It will get better, or not, but we can only do what we can do.

Redstone

[MzNov]

6. Focus on the humanity, humor, togetherness for our cause...

there is a great deal of intelligence and humor on here as well. Focus on how the overwhelming majority of us are united in the fight to take back America and try to make it better. Human beings take a long long time to change, but it does happen. Cheer up. It's Friday. Play some head-banging rock music and burn a fatty.

:)

[Liberal In Texas]

7. "Trolls aside"...

I think there are a lot of disrupters here. It's getting worse.

More and more those who would have discord show up.

Keep telling the truth. It's a sign that they are losing and are desperate.

Don't give up.

Most of us are with you.

[Jade Fox]

21. It will get worse the closer we get to the election......

It will be important for us to avoid taking the bait and giving Trolls the attention and satisfaction they want by successfully disrupting DU.

[MuseRider]

8. Uppity

:hug: You are the greatest and I am so happy I got to meet you. We need to meet again at some future wonderful gathering. :hug: I always know I will find good things when I see your name.

[helderheid]

9. It does me too and it is also my weakness.

I'm trying - even beyond the bickering that goes on here.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/helderheid/140

Something I sent my Quaker group
Posted by helderheid in General Discussion
Sun Jul 02nd 2006, 04:35 AM
Hi all

I'm fairly new to the list as you know. I have just started to return to
Quaker meeting and my Quaker roots as well as sharing it with my young
children. I feel very much at home and I thank
all of you.

For some reason I find it very difficult to share testimony during the
meetings. I hope it's all right that I share my testimony here. Our meeting
yesterday was profound for me.

I have felt a real disconnect between my spirituality and my political
activism. My returning to meeting was in great part due to the anger I have
been feeling about the current political atmosphere we are experiencing.
Along with wanting my children to experience growing up Quaker, it was this
desperate need for a spiritual community due to my drowning in anger and
angst. I pondered this disconnect I've had during the meditation.

I thought about those in power and how their actions made me so angry and I
wanted to delve deeper into that feeling. I realized it wasn't anger I was
really feeling but a profound sorrow. I feel every mother's grief for losing
a child in this war, as well as every husband's, wife's, parent's and child
s loss of a loved one - in this war, because of Katrina, because they
cannot afford to eat or heat their homes - or countless other reasons. It's
not anger, it's pain.

This brings me back to those whom I feel are inflicting this pain and my
spiritual disconnect. The first thing I thought was that these people must
be lacking in love. I then focused on sending them that love. Then I thought
you either believe you are of love or you don't. If you believe you are of
love, then you believe they are too and are therefore are not lacking in
love - you don't need to send it to them. It was then I realized I needed to
recognize that love in them just as I need to recognize the love that I am,
and that it is none of my business if they cannot recognize it in themselves
but it was my duty to recognize it in them. It's a challenge for me but I
truly believe that the most profound political activism I can participate in
is to recognize the love/Christ spirit/divinity in each and everyone I
encounter, excluding no one. Not even those I feel are causing great damage
to our communities.

Thanks for letting me share this here. I hope it was coherent!

_______________

Don't flame me. I condone NOTHING this administration is involved in.

[Dystopian]

19. Thank you for sharing....

.....very inspiring...

peace~

[Gregorian]

23. That's so powerful Helderheid.

I believe it's that simple. I wish it were not that simple. I wish there were more that could be done. But there isn't. And that's why we have so much trouble in the world. There is actually less to be done. Not more. Hm, that sounds silly.

When I hear the word Quaker, I hear my mother's words. It's special to me. It's a mystery I'll never know more than a history from her. My family comes from a long line of Quakers. My great uncles were some of the first Conscientious Objectors in America.

I don't have much to say here. I'm just supporting what you have said. It feels like "home" to me. It's my background. Yet I am a baby boomer in the fast lane. I still value peace and caring. I want a better world. Actually, that better world is here the entire time. We just have to learn to let it exist.

[helderheid]

27. THIS is powerful:

"Actually, that better world is here the entire time. We just have to learn to let it exist."

Thank you for this!

[renate]

30. that's so beautiful, helderheid

That last paragraph really struck a chord in me.

It's hard--nearly impossible sometimes--to keep believing that everyone has a spark of divinity in them. It's sort of like how it's easy to follow the Buddhist way of being present in the moment, being calm despite outside influences, observing our emotions instead of being carried away with them, etc, when life is going well and everything is flowing, but in times of crisis and tension all that calmness and kindness flies out the window, even though it's always the right way to be in all situations, not just the easy ones.

One of my favorite sayings, which I remind myself of when people are rude in traffic or when I read about how horribly some people (especially those in power) behave, is "Mean people are suffering." It helps me be a little more compassionate at times when it's really difficult to be the kind of person I'd like to be, and it reminds me that they're people too, despite all evidence to the contrary.

[otherlander]

10. "How can we hope anything positive for the world

, for humanity as a whole if there are this many people even here being nasty towards each other?"

And how can we hope for freedom in the world if even here, in a place that calls itself an Underground, dissent is censored?

[helderheid]

11. I really don't belive that is what is being called for here. I think

this is more a wake up call.

[uppityperson]

12. I am not asking to censor dissent, you got me wrong there

Dissent, argue, disagree, talk talk talk but why do it in a manner designed primarily to hurt? That is not dissenting, arguing, disagreeing or talk talk talking but just being nasty.

[etherealtruth]

24. Calls for civility and "censorship" are not the same thing. n/t

[RagAss]

13. it's just the sound of our buttcheeks hitting rock bottom.....

Life under the Shrub.....

[ninkasi]

15. Dear Uppity

Sometimes we have to avoid unpleasant posts, or people, in order to maintain our own peace of mind and sanity. I don't get involved in the kind of posts that keep escalating in venom until one or the other person is wounded. I save my venom for the Republicans, who richly deserve it.

As individuals, we have different opinions, and different priorities, and different ways of attempting to solve problems. The last thing I want to do is to tear down a fellow progressive, if at all possible. I am 63, so probably older than you. My own grandmother, when she was about my age, was my idol and my role model.

We had an argument one day, I can't remember what it was about now, after almost 50 years, but I remember going outside to sulk, and lay in the hammock and pout. My grandmother, who lived next door to us, got into her car and drove off. She came back shortly thereafter, to where I was still sulking, and handed me a yellow rose.

She said then that while she didn't agree with my position on what we had been arguing about, it was not important enough to cause us to not speak to each other. Looking back, I was arguing with her with all of the arrogance of youth, and refused to back down. She wisely knew that the thing we were arguing about was not important in the grand scheme of things, and taught me that a graceful truce was always better than a bitter feud.

She has been dead now for over 20 years, but the lessons she taught me, and my cousins, still remain. Sometimes, Uppityperson, you have to back out of certain discussions if they have descended into feuding and name calling. Nothing gets accomplished then, and you end up with a bad taste in your mouth. We can debate, yes, and we can offer up different points of view, but when it comes to name calling and bitterness, the best thing you can do is to move on to another thread. We need you here, so don't get discouraged.

[NMMNG]

16. Times like these,

I can't help but believe more and more a bit of dialogue between John and the Terminator in T2: Judgement Day

John: "We're not going to make it, are we? Humans I mean."

Terminator: "It is in your nature to destroy yourselves."


Are we really incapable of getting along and living peacefully with one another? :shrug:

[nomatrix]

17. As long as humans have choices

they will make those choices as they wish.

There will always be resentments toward those who don't play fair. Even the peaceful groups like the Quakers, Mennonites, Amish, etc. who help each other and live and their own privates worlds, don't participate in wars (correct me if I'm wrong) and are resented because others have laid down their lives for the freedoms they practice. Look at volunteers. Is everyone volunteering?
Someone's got to take out the trash. Seems like the same ones always do the work. They get resentful that if only everyone helped, it would be simplier.....

Some are nasty out of resentment toward the whole mess of the country and have no where to vent. They read something that irritates and the response goes over the top. OTOH it's great to have a safe place to vent, and know that's all it is.

Then there are those who have a bully obsession, that enter a forum, to pick fights and irritate, because their life is so boring and have nothing left for amusement except to hunt down people to argue with and spew nonsense....How you live with the crap that is in your heads?

Hang in there. There are loads of people who hold back, repeatedly from nasty, responses. I can't tell you how many times I've deleted a paragraph. After typing, and reading it, I decided I felt better now, and thought it best not to post it.

[patricia92243]

22. "There are loads of people who hold back, repeatedly from nasty,

responses. I can't tell you how many times I've deleted a paragraph. After typing, and reading it, I decided I felt better now, and thought it best not to post it."

Wow! Are you ever right. Unfortunatly I have still let a few snarky things through that later I wish I had not. They have not been about people - but were less than nice on my part.


Thanks for reminding me to be more careful.

:)

[Raine]

18. Seems like in the past week or so

people are jumping on each other more with really nasty personal attacks just over a little difference in opinion. :hide: Maybe it's the stress of the last 6 years that are taking their toll.:-(

[RedEarth]

20. I agree, it is discouraging..... however, as one Duer mentioned

a year or so ago, just like in the real world, there are assholes that post on DU. And, just wait until the elections......that's when it really get fun.

[Cleita]

26. I finally discovered the ignore function a few months ago.

I probably have a good percentage of DUers on it but I have found my experience here much more pleasant and more informative now that I have blocked the dross from my computer.

[Raine]

31. Me too

and I have put more on in the past week or so than in the 3+ years I have been in DU put together, but I feel better for it. :-)

[MODemocrat]

25. Most of us are having a hard time dealing with the current problems

Sometimes, I snip at someone a little bit, and later feel bad about it. Now, I re-read my post before sending it, and think: "How Would I feel if someone were to say this to me." Then I either cancel it or change it. We all deserve to have an opinion about things, but, at one time on DU, we were asked not to snap back at another DU'er. Several years ago, one of my posts was deleted because I made a personal attack, which didn't seem too bad then, but it opened my eyes quite a bit.

:hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :dem:

[Bluerthanblue]

28. being honest,

is always best- your post is inspiring to me, because you have the courage to speak your sadness, without trying to offend anyone- Simply encouraging us to move forward, or at least stand together, despite our varied perspectives, without feeling the need to destroy each other.

I agree with you- It makes me sad too- and yet, I can't help but continue to come here seeking that connections with people who seem to hold out the best chance of desiring to find 'a better way'-

Maybe we all forget how powerful words are- how they can do more damage sometimes, than physical weapons.

I said to my boys last night, that the whole world seems so mean- and angry and violent. From the words people speak to each other, to the lack of human compassion so often seen locally- rising crime, violence, and rage- even our weather, seems to be really angry- And I really believe it started before 9/11, but has gotten so out of hand just lately-

We cannot live with the kind of anger, arrogance, and false bravado being thrown at us on a daily basis, starting with the morning news, and ending with cruel humor of late nite tv- and not have it 'rub off' on us, unless we are very vigilant.
:hug:
Uppityperson,

I think your blue hair was an awesome stroke of positive change- wish I had your courage- ;)
We are all in this together, and we can only control ourselves- even that is often a challenge-

Peace- and comfort to us all-

blu

[walldude]

29. While it would be nice if we could all be sensible and decent

when we disagree, the anonymity of the internet almost makes that impossible. You will never find a public place on the internet that doesn't have trolls, disruptors and just plain assholes who sit in their mommy's basement trying to make the rest of the world as miserable as they are.. It's an internet fact of life. The ignore button is helpful.

[B Calm]

32. I have always wanted to tell a Judge, who in hell are you to judge!

[hyphenate]

33. I wholeheartedly agree

There are lots of people who used to be here that aren't anymore, and that saddens me. And we've got a lot of new people, which is good for some things, but sometimes it seems that a lot of the new people have got their jones on to disrupt things or at the very least upset things.

There are a lot more issues than ever before, but that doesn't mean we can't have solidarity.

Back awhile ago, we found that some trolls had deliberately hung around collecting posts until they were in the 1000+ category, and thus became "trusted" and then they began to "out" themselves after the 2004 election.

To be honest, I can't understand their frame of mind to be here so long and yet be so fervid to show their disdain for what we represent. The time they spent here seems to me to be a tremendous waste of valuable life time.

There is little any of us can really do if people want to be negative, and who want to waste their time trolling and being nasty. All we can really do is hang on and wait them out. We can't control any one else's behavior, only our own. If we learn to hold back and perhaps bite our tongues when these people try to provoke us, we are the better people because of it.

And I should say that DU does provide rules of etiquette, and an alert button. I don't think we should ignore the "alert" button when we feel we're being called out. It's there for a reason, and it makes sense to let the mods try to sort things out if there is maliciousness around. That way, we protect our own reputations, and we can help make those trolls succeed even less than they already do.

[Wrinkle_In_Time]

34. Man up, Nancy.

If a little squabbling between posters on a web forum makes you sad, then you aren't prepared to cope with the real world. There are people out there killing each other for a variety of stupid reasons. Be sad about that.

[uppityperson]

36. Did you even read what I wrote or just respond to a tiny bit of it?

I think you missed the point. Peace to you and good luck to us all.

[mogster]

35. I sometimes have posted nasty comments

Usually when drunk ;-)

It does no harm, as long as it is not a campaign directed at one person, or dedicated to single out a group of DU'ers as lesser than the rest. I even apologize afterwards, sometimes.

7th of July last year bombs went off in London, killing more than 50 people. Some time later a young Brazilian, de Menenez, was shot down and killed by the police - a horrifying and sad mistake which left many people here angry. Suddenly the British DU'ers found themselves being transformed from victims of terror to representatives of British police doctrine. Some pretty stiff comments were served in the days after, and I was one of the people serving them, I'm sorry to say.

We need to have some consideration for the involved people in controversial situations, even though we don't share their view on events.

[leanin_green]

37. Sadly, emulation of those who continually are victorious over you. . .

has a way of surfacing in the characters of the vanquished.

I mean, it seems to work for the Repugs, why not for the Dems?
Kind of like what we see out of those Dems on the Hill. If ya can't beat em, join em.

[dannofoot]

38. One man's ceiling is another man's floor...

...Or, one man's "troll" is another man's "truth."

I read DU forums throughout the day. Perhaps I'm slow, dense, or not totally in the groove. But I just can't discern who is a "troll" and who is not.

Is a troll someone who doesn't toe YOUR party line? Someone who has a different opinion of Cindy Sheehan than you do? Someone with a different opinion of Israel? One who doesn't think about Hilary like you do?

If the answer to any of those questions is "yes" - then be sad. Free thinking people allow others to think freely. Your sadness doesn't matter to those who allow others within our realm to think and believe as they please.

Sorry for your sad face. But I've found that those on DU are all pretty well united behind progressive ideals. We differ on many details, but I believe our objectives are the same.

Sorry...whiners make me very tired.

[uppityperson]

42. My sadness comes from insults rather than debate

being nasty rather than allowind others to think freely. That is what my sadness comes from. Please reread what I wrote as it is not about censorship, or sad that we don't think the same, but about being nasty to each other about our differences. Calling me a whiner rather than saying I disagree, for instance. This is what makes me sad.

[tomreedtoon]

39. We're just psyching ourself for the next Democratic loss.

What else are we supposed to do? We keep putting our trust and our hearts in the hands of the latest Democratic candidate, who is supposed to carry our water to the Nation's Capitol. He always drops the bucket halfway there, and when they cheat him out of his votes, he cuts and runs.

Don't blame us for being cynical. Blame the Democratic Party for being spineless.

[GreenTea]

41. Exactly right...Or perhaps the Diebold machines that most people & the

democrats choose to ignore...that count our votes and then tell us the results and we are suppose to just accept them? With no way to confirm any of it?

Why does a private (republican) corporation own and control our voting machines in the first place, that our tax dollars pay for and still were not allowed to examine or question the results?

[Voltaire99]

40. It's called the dialectic.

You don't have the stomach for its tougher manifestations, obviously. Not that you must; indeed, you might be a more highly evolved political specimen, and in a few generations we'll all be as sanguine as you.

But without any evidence to back up your claims to being driven to "sadness," it's hard to sympathize. How about a gentler hobby than politics?

[uppityperson]

43. How about civility in debate?

Rather than calling me names, insulting me in an underhanded way, we have civilized debate? Evidence? It is all over DU recently. I am not complaining about being DUers necessarily being nasty towards me, except for a few that took even this call for civility as an excuse to do so, but in general. How about we work together, debate civilly rather than nastily. Having friends, such as most on DU, reverting to calling each other "butthead" (for vague example) rather than engaging in the debate we are capable of, that is what makes me sad.