public school kids do as well as or better than in private schools

[ChairmanAgnostic]

So much for home skuling or christian arguments for private edukashun.

"The report separated private schools by type, and found that among private-school students, those in Lutheran schools did best, while those in conservative Christian schools did worst. For example, in eighth-grade reading, children in conservative Christian schools did no better than comparable children in public schools."

more here: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/07/15/MNGI7JVJ361.DTL

Conservative christian schools do worst among private schools? Should we be shocked? Or does the brain-rinsing, washing and drying they undergo actually have a damaging impact after all? Does teaching little Joseph that man walked with Dino the Dragon corrode the brain? I wouldn't be surprised if they are taught to problem solve math questions by praying for the right answer, rather than using their brains.

[etherealtruth]

1. Not surprising ...

Where the public school system fails (IMO)is in poor "inner city" districts and poor rural systems. We fail those kids miserably.

My assumption is that the parents sending kids to conservative Christian fundamentalist schools (NOT all Christian/parochial schools) are themselves not "very bright."

[ulysses]

2. if by "we" here

We fail those kids miserably.

you mean all of us, society as a whole, you have my complete agreement.

[etherealtruth]

5. That's the "we" I mean ...

American society as a whole.

[ulysses]

6. cool.

Those of us who teach in those schools (I teach in Atlanta) are fighting an uphill battle. We're not going to close the "achievement gap" simply by concentrating even more on the basics, or taking away recess, or giving more high-stakes tests, or what have you.

[etherealtruth]

9. Effective, dedicated, hardworking teachers ...

... are the most important "link in the chain;" however, if every other "link" is broken or weakened the outcome is still the same. These kids and U.S. society, as a whole, lose.

[ulysses]

10. I would make family at least as important

as teachers. The kids I've had who have supportive, effective families, whether they're in the ghetto or not, have a better chance of making it. Those who don't, or worse whose families work in the opposite fashion, have a hard time of it no matter what we do in the school.

[etherealtruth]

18. Parents/families are as if not more important ...

...however, I see the parents as often being products of the same poor education, victims of poverty (a single mother working 2 jobs to meet the most basic needs of her kids can only do so much), and living with the serious problems that face many of our inner cities. Children born into disadvantaged (the disadvantage could be monetary, intellectual ...) are frequently destined to fail.

My rambling point: these school districts need more "supports" and often receive less.

[LostinVA]

3. And, many of those schools are even accredited

KIds graduate from them, and can't get into college until they take remedial classes at community colleges. Many don't even have real teachers.

[elehhhhna]

8. Yep. Low paid teachers with hno college education. Yipee.

[dsc]

4. This is hardly a surprise

study after study shows this. The more prepared teachers and more up to date pedadogy of pubic schools counters the more motivated parents of the private ones. The result ends up being a wash or that public schools do somewhat better.

[W_HAMILTON]

7. Just some anecdotal evidence here...

In 9th grade, all the kids from the private Christian school joined us at our public high school. I didn't even know the school existed -- much less anything else about it -- so I just assumed that they were from a private school, that they would all be pretty smart. Well, I was proven wrong. Most of them were in my AP classes in 9th grade, but quite a few ended up dropping those types of courses by senior year. About two of them were really smart, and the rest (18-20 or so) were pretty much just your run-of-the-mill, average type of student you'd find in school. Not super smart, but not dumb either. C's with some B's type of students.

I can't remember where they were "ranked" when we graduated. I'd say one of them was in the top 7-8. The top four in our class definitely all were from public schools.

So, you can take that however you want. I will give them this, oddly enough, some of those kids from the Christian school were some of the coolest people you'd meet. Granted, this was back in the late 90's before the crazy Christian stuff took off. Come to think of it, they weren't really religious at all, oddly enough.

[adarling]

11. yay for Lutherans :)

always wish i went to our school at church for elementary. I loved public school, but i think i would have benefitted from a smaller class size. The teachers had control over what they were teaching and did not teach how to take a test all the time. WOuld have been interesting.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

13. for 5 yrs i attended a ortho-christian skule, then

moved to the burbs and finished grade skule in public schools. There was a feeling of undying elation and freedom, where I was permitted to reaad what I wanted, to learn out of curiosity, not take rote lessons from a ruler-armed penguin.

[mzteris]

12. FYI - YMMV.....

Also - not all homeschooler's are fundamentalists. There are MANY liberal hs'ers. There are also MANY reasons WHY a family may choose to homeschool. For some children it is the best choice. For some children (in the areas they live in) it is the ONLY real choice.

On any given day any child from any type of "educational system" will "outperform" any other child from any other system.

Depends on the kid.

Depends on the test.

Depends on the environment in which they were educated.



Please do NOT lump all hs's in the "dumb fundy crowd". Did you know DU's own AVA (yes - THAT Ava!) is a homeschooler?

[Gabi Hayes]

15. just curious......where did you read anything in this thread about

home schooling?

[October]

16. The original poster

The intent was clear with the misspellings.

[mzteris]

21. in the OP he says

***So much for home skuling or christian arguments for private edukashun. ***

[October]

14. Liberal home schooler here...

Not all public school districts are enlightened. Some teachers were just as scared as Dennis Miller after 9/11, and are as right-winged as Rush Limbaugh. It's not safe to assume public schools are the best place for education any more. I used to think so, and had a rude awakening in our school system.

Our district's school board is 90% republican, maybe more. They hire the superintendent, they hire the teachers, and it all trickles down. It's very tight and they write rules as they go along to protect their power/secrecy.

Teachers are also told what to teach, such as "Every Day Math." Those who oppose it, still have to do it. It's all political...right down to who gets to be on which committee to choose the new books, programs, etc.

We're a non-religious family, and home schooling works for us because we literally choose the curriculum. In addition, my teenage child is taking classes at the local community college because she needs a science lab and likes biology. We pay the district math teacher a lot of money to teach her privately, because I'm limited mathematically, and he's awesome and worth every penny. My daughter took an AP course online this past year, which would not have been available to her in our district (at age 15), because she was not in their "gifted program." Many doors are closed to students in our "public" schools. And also, since she pursues ballet very seriously, 30 hours a week at the studio, we home school.




Edited to fix last sentence.

[cantstandbush]

17. Every great thing that America has accomplished was done so with

mostly public school grads at the helm.

[mzteris]

22. EVERY great thing?

FAMOUS HOMESCHOOLERS

Constitutional Convention Delegates
Richard Basseti - Governor of Delaware
William Blount - U.S. Senator
George Clymer - U.S. Representative
William Few - U.S. Senator
Benjamin Franklin - Inventor and Statesman
William Houston - Lawyer
William S. Johnson - President of Columbia College
William Livingston - Governor of New Jersey
James Madison - 4th President of the U.S.
George Mason - Justice of Virginia County Court
John Francis Mercer - U.S. Representative
Charles Pickney III - Governor of S. Carolina
John Rutledge - Chief Justice U.S. Supreme Court
Richard D. Spaight - Governor of North Carolina
George Washington - 1st President of the U.S.
John Witherspoon - President of Princeton University
George Wythe - Justice of Virginia High Court


Presidents
John Adams
John Quincy Adams
Grover Cleveland
James Garfield
William Henry Harrison
Andrew Jackson
Thomas Jefferson
Abraham Lincoln
James Madison
Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Theodore Roosevelt
John Tyler
George Washington
Woodrow Wilson


Statesmen
Henry Fountain Ashurst
William Jennings Bryan
Henry Clay
Benjamin Franklin
Alexander Hamilton
Patrick Henry
William Penn
Daniel Webster

[Generic Other]

19. Conservative Xtian schools self-select for stupidity to start with

so the conclusions would seem obvious.

[Wise Child]

20. Fundie schools claim to excellence is grade school education,

Teaching them the basic three Rs. Easy to cover.

Attending two Fundie ran private schools, from grades six to twelve, it seems that they have three things they have to cover ideologically. The first obvious one is Science, spending alot of time with counterpoints to evolution. I remember being taught from textbooks that I believe Ken Hovind contributed to significantly. Much of it didn't even deal with biology, rather claiming that evolution has lead to moral decay in society in general.

The second is History and Social Sciences. They explain how Conservative ideology works best with Fundamentalist Christianity. Revisionists History about how we are a "Christian Nation". How we can do this, this and that in our society, yet abort unborn children. Abortion became a multi-faceted debate.

The third is English. Particularly, literature. Literature anthologies with maybe one chapter of The Grapes of Wraith,(Can't have it in whole, pastor carrying a whiskey flask,) An anti-evolution sermon from Billy Sunday (also mentioned in History textbooks), and some lightweight literature, and other edited novels, and literary works. Amazingly, they tell people to take their grade school children out of public schools because they claim to do a better job of teaching reading and grammar, yet deprive them of the cultural reasons for reading in high school. I think this is why I majored in English in college.

Also, there are Bible classes. Often taught as the token class of the gym teacher.

[mzteris]

23. would those be Ring Wraiths?

lol......