there is one thing i've always wondered about 'the rapture'...

[dysfunctional press]

what happens when they hit the stratosphere?

[C_U_L8R]

1. pop

poppity pop pop

[dysfunctional press]

3. yep...that's kinda what i thought.

[reichstag911]

4. Is that pic from "Scanners?" nt

[NavyDavy]

2. I think most of these "born agains" will be heading the opposite

direction than up!

[shadowknows69]

5. I wonder where it is in the bible

these people should read it more.

[dysfunctional press]

7. i went to parochial school thru high school...

lutherans...missouri synod(unfortunately for them, i saw it as the "show me" synod- as in, "if you want me to believe in your god- show me..." they couldn't.)

and we never ever heard of no "rapture"...

but at least we were allowed to dance.

[journalist3072]

12. self-delete

[journalist3072]

6. For people with SERIOUS questions about the rapture...

1 Thessalonians 4: 16-17 says:


"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

[dysfunctional press]

8. so like i said...

what happens when they hit the stratosphere?

or will the mother-ship beam them aboard first?

(and considering who the fundies are, i'll bet that they'll be a mite disappointed if this turns out to be the mothership: )

if j.c. did exist, it would be cool if he was george clinton.

[treestar]

9. That's exactly what they sound like

I can't remember the name of the cult, they were in California and thought they were meeting up with the Hale-Bopp comet.

[dysfunctional press]

13. heaven's gate- a stupid cult AND a shitty movie.

they also did a csi episode based upon it.

[JuniperLea]

15. Heaven's Gate

But you had to wear purple and I don't look good in purple.

[shadowknows69]

46. That verse seems to imply

that EVERYONE will be caught up to be with God.

[misternormal]

57. According to what I've read in the past...

... The people who have accepted Christ as their savior, (One of the chief tenets of being "born-again"), will rise in the first resurrection... The rest will have to stand before God in judgment.

So no, not everyone is slated to go... Like taking the express elevator I guess.

[Lars39]

10. Written by Paul, iirc.

[dysfunctional press]

18. the same lunatic who brought you 'revelations'...

does anyone else think that maybe paul got his hands on some moldy rye?


http://dim.com/~randl/holm/lsd.htm

[SPKrazy]

20. The Book of Revelation

was written by an unknown author but attributed to John

it is actually a literary work that is full of hope for restoration, not a book of doom as the fundies seem to portray it

[dysfunctional press]

21. my mistake...

the lutheran schools i went too kind of down-played that book...
almost like they were embarrassed by it for some(very good) reason.

[Homer Wells]

22. More likely some zesty mushrooms! n/t

:hippie:

[jimshoes]

61. I was thinking along those

exact lines not two days ago. Fantastical writing and literary imagery for those early times it seems to me. Does anyone know the approximate date of these writings?

[JuniperLea]

11. So, they hang out forever in the clouds?

I used to frustrate the hell out of my church elders. I was a youngster asking honest questions.

I broke all ties when, after my own music ministry took off like crazy and I started rockin' a little, one of the elders told me "that beat comes straight from the depths of hell". I asked where in the Bible it said we shouldn't enjoy the music that God created. After all, only God created things. Satan never created a thing. I got yelled at. So long!

[ContraBass Black]

55. "that beat comes straight from the depths of hell".

"But how can that be, teacher, when we rock so righteously?" (air guitar)

[JuniperLea]

63. Hahaha! Excellent! n/t

[knitter4democracy]

58. Yeah, well, they yelled at King David, too.

Only, he danced naked in front of the entire kingdom when he got blessed and wanted to praise God. ;)

[MellowOne]

24. The passage isn't speaking of the rapture

I attended a intense seminar on the end times. Of course, I can't totally explain it here, it's an in-depth study but this is talkling about the spiritual realm. Since all words don't translate into English exactly because we don't have the same word, the word "air" is actually referring to the air around us. You notice they don't say sky. Sky doesn't fit because this air is the breathing air around us. If you study the Bible you see that clouds represents Jesus, and his spiritual kingdom. All through the Bible clouds represented God or Jesus as in the 40 years in the desert, the cloud followed them, etc. This passage was not meant to be taking literally.

And the Book of Revelations is not a book about the end times as well. It's about the victory we have over the spiritual realm in Jesus as our savior.

[journalist3072]

34. Yes, it is speaking of the rapture

The passage from Thessalonians that I referenced is speaking of the rapture.

[SPKrazy]

39. No, It Is Interpreted As Rapture By Some

but the idea of a rapture is fairly new in Christian theology, hence it isn't something that is taught in all religions.

Less than 200 years old, the idea of a rapture is a new interpretation of this and a few other scriptures.

So the reality is that that passage is interpreted by some to be speaking of the rapture, and by others to be speaking of something else as the other poster wrote.

To each his/her own

[knitter4democracy]

59. That's not how the Church has traditionally interpreted it.

The Rapture theology is rather new in Church history, and that verse has usually been interpreted as referring to the Second Coming. The Rapture theology says that there will be two Second Comings, so to speak, as one will be an early out for Christians and then starts a major war. The Second Coming would then be after that to put an end to all time and bring the Kingdom of God to earth in full form.

Most churches actually don't believe in that interpretation. While there were some very early Rapture believers, it didn't really become a major theology until the 1800's, mostly in the U.S. Even then, it wasn't accepted by the churches around then, only by the ones that grew out of the tent revivals and such. Not all of those churches, after looking into the theology and its history, took it on as official belief, either.

[shadowknows69]

47. Ding DIng DIng

we have a winner. Well put. Revelations was not meant to be a checklist for doomsday. Deal with it fundies and stop wanting to end our planet.

[Generic Brad]

48. Well, that settles it then

If it was stated in Thessalonians, it must be true. The Thessalonian people are known to be especially trustworthy.

[davekriss]

14. Ah, hate to inform you, but....

...the rapture has already happened, and we are the left behind. It's the only thing that can explain this hell on earth exploding everywhere since Bush seized office.

[dysfunctional press]

16. what if god gave a rapture, and nobody came?

:shrug:

[shadowknows69]

50. Who was taken then?

Maybe none of us qualified. That would be my bet. God probably ditched us ages ago.

[jimshoes]

62. So that's what hppened to the

Inca's and Mayan's. The fundies are late for the party it seems.

[journalist3072]

17. Why all the blasphemous attacks on religion here on DU?

I think this is exactly the point that Barack Obama was trying to make in his recent speech.

Instead of acknowliging the role of religion and faith in people's lives, too many on the left are just downright dismissive of it.

I think too many people here on DU use the over-the-top, radical, downight crazy people like Pat Robertson to attack religion overall.

Very sad.

[dysfunctional press]

19. what's sad...

is the way the world continually gets fucked-up by people too weak-minded to comprehend that we are in this thing on OUR OWN...there is no "hand of god" guiding ANYTHING.

it's ALL us.

and it's all up too US.

if people need some type of artificial crutch to get through their horrible wretched lives, that's fine- but don't drag it into national policy or the public forum.

i'm fed up with it :mad:

[SPKrazy]

25. You Can Be Fed Up With It

but Journalist is right

the majority of Democrats are people of faith, generally not fundamentalists, but a few are Dems there as well.

You can be fed up with it and believe that we are in this on our own

but why call people who do believe "weak minded"

I'd put my "weak mind" against your "mind" any day.

Christians and other people of faith make up the majority of people in this country and of Democrats. If we want to win elections we need to wake up and realize that and stop letting the agenda get set and portrayed as being "godless" Democrats

[dysfunctional press]

32. why call people of faith weak-minded?

because they're apparently proud of the fact that they can't make the journey through life on their own...

even though they do it every day. (on their own, that is) :eyes:

in my opinion, that makes the ones who do it weak-minded.

and last time that i checked, i was still entitled to my opinion.

[SPKrazy]

37. Whatever

of course you have an opinion

and it is one I disagree with, but you have a right

calling people of faith weak minded is an insult

but like I said, I'll put my "weak mind" against your "mind" any day

[Clark2008]

60. So I'm guessing you have no friends and no family.

I mean, afterall, you're not "weak-minded" enough to require anyone's help in your journey.

No (wo)man is an island.

And faith is just as close to some peoples' hearts as family and/or friends.

[MzShellG]

23. You're absolutely right..

In what you say about Barack Obama....etc. But in this environment, prepare to flamed. I'm a dem who is liberal on some issues and moderate on ohers, such as religion. It seem that a lot of dems have a warped understanding of religion, due to hypocrites lke Pat Robinson....et...al. That is beyond sad.

[SPKrazy]

26. It's A Product Of

people who have fundamentalist style of looking at the world, either or.

either the bible is all true, or it is all lies

I've heard fundies say that, I've heard devout atheists say that.

Me thinks that in some cases there may be no difference in them except that one is on one side of the coin and the other is on the other side of the coin.

As a progressive Christian I'm not even on the coin, I'm somewhere else. How about you?

[MzShellG]

40. I'm with you...

I completely agree when it comes to the politics, but when they bash the concept of religion or ANYONE who is religious, they loose me. However, I would never vote rethug nomatter what.

[dysfunctional press]

27. i understand religion completely...

i was even hoodwinked by it for close to two decades (wasted ones).

what's warped are the religoid's views of life, the planet, and our place in it.

and they keep on fucking it up for everyone- all throughout history, and always in the name's of their respective deities.

and btw- i'm not saying that all supposed athiests have clean hands either- for example, stalin and pol pot were not nice guys.

but most of the major fuck-ups have been god-based in one way or another.

[SPKrazy]

31. You Don't Understand

anything but your own understanding of religion

you enjoy bashing religion, and bashing God, and bashing those "weak minded" enough to believe in God.

Look around you man, you're surrounded by "weak minded" people.

Glad you have DU to vent on 'cause most of the world isn't going to give you a platform

[dysfunctional press]

36. how can i "bash" god..?

when there's nothing there to bash? :shrug:

the idea of god- that's something that exists- and is total horseshit.

[SPKrazy]

38. Like I said

YOU DON'T GET IT!


:shrug:

shrug away

God is everywhere and in everything in my belief system.

You can bash God if you want

when you are vocal about it, does it make Democrats who are people of faith interested in aligning themselves with you?

[readmoreoften]

70. And when you bash atheists and agnostics, you drive us away.

Why are you arguing with every person who has a hard time dealing with the MANY MESSED UP things that the religious right are doing to our country? There ARE progressive christians on this board-- for sure. But the majority of them don't get their panties in a bunch every time someone calls the Rapture Right out for who they are, or everytime a gay person says that they've been discriminated against by religious-minded people, or everytime someone says that they are an atheist and they don't "get it."

The Rapture-Right conservatives, who have the ear of the White House, who are gleeful about the prospects of the destruction of all humanity, and who are interested in curtailing our rights at home are THE MOST DANGEROUS FORCE IN AMERICA, maybe except for the PNAC, which is using them for their own political and financial gain. And anyone who apologizes for them is aiding and abetting this regime.

Working as a labor activist, I fight side by side with many conscientious people involved in Yahweh-based religions. NOT ONE OF THEM sees "atheists" as "the problem" or equal in any way to what the religious right is doing to our country. When you deny that these people are a problem, YOU are causing a rift between people on the left. When you say that atheists are just as bad as right wing religious zealots, you triangulate us out of our own party.

I don't care what origin stories people believe in. I only care about where people stand in terms of social justice and progress. In the moments when DU Christians apologize for warmongers and fanatics, they cease to be standing up for social justice and progress.

[SPKrazy]

73. Huh? I Think You've Got Me Mixed Up With Someone Else

Why are you arguing with every person who has a hard time dealing with the MANY MESSED UP things that the religious right are doing to our country? There ARE progressive christians on this board-- for sure. But the majority of them don't get their panties in a bunch every time someone calls the Rapture Right out for who they are, or everytime a gay person says that they've been discriminated against by religious-minded people, or everytime someone says that they are an atheist and they don't "get it."

I despise the "rapture right", I'm not arguing with "every person" about anything.

I was challenging a particular poster for his/her comments that were insulting

get a grip

[readmoreoften]

75. I suppose.

I'm replying to all Christians who are replying to the "why are there so many blaphemous posts on DU?" Well, if you don't believe in God, your whole life is pretty much blasphemy. It's hard pay reverence to something you don't believe in. Requiring all posts to "not blaspheme" is like putting a religious requirement on posts.

I have ideas about the origin of the world even though I don't believe in a God. I could say that Christians are railing against my beliefs every time they assert their own, simply because it differs.

There are no sacred cows on DU (maybe other than the Democratic party itself). People here think my beliefs are wacky all the time here. Religion is no exception.

Sorry if I misposted.

[SPKrazy]

76. No Sacred Cows

that's for sure

I don't agree that the posts are "blasphemous" I think that is a little far fetched for someone to claim that

I was responding to the poster who called people of faith "weak minded"

I'm sorry, I'm not weak minded, and I have beliefs. (they may be pretty damned wacky too)

[SPKrazy]

74. Dupe delete

[MellowOne]

33. It's sad, people see God through the people

Many hypocrites that make the rest of us look like crazies.

Gahandi said something like, we hate the Jesus we see in people but if you really knew Jesus you would love him.

[davekriss]

44. Might I remind you of the good work...

...done by proponents of Liberation Theology, which originated within the Roman Catholic church and now has proponents in Protestant circles as well (despite being attacked and oppressed by the Vatican orthodoxy). Not all faith leads to staunch support of exploitative capitalism with commensurate political oppression. On the contrary, Liberation Theology is the spiritual adjunct to class struggle, and it swept over South and Central America through the sixties, seventies, and eighties until finally splintered by the buzzsaw of US imperial oppression.

Some famous examples of Liberation Theologists:

Ernesto Cardenal, who took part in the failed April Revolution against Somoza in the fifties, escaped, and returned to work with the Sandinistas, and served as Nicaragua's Minister of Culture for a decade starting in 1979 when the Sandinistas gained office.

Jean-Bertrand Aristide, the thrice democratically elected President of Haiti and thrice undemocratically removed by military and para-military coups aided and abetted by the USG. Aristide's sin? Acknowledging the rights of all citizens of Haiti to participate in a democracy, freely choosing policies that benefit the many rather than just the few. The USG could not tolerate such a close-to-home example of defiant departure from the U.S. enforced neo-imperial model where thin elites brutally manage local affairs to the benefit of US corporations.

Oscar Romero, Archbishop of San Salvador, who unflaggingly raised visibility to the crimes against the peoples of El Salvador being committed by the brutal right-wing junta aided and abetted by USG military aid. He famously wrote a letter to Jimmy Carter pleading for the U.S. to end the aid because it resulted in the brutal repression, torture, and death of so many poor and powerless. Recall: El Salvador, with U.S. aid, perfected the model for "death squads", which John Negroponte purportedly furthered in Honduras and recently sought to export to Iraq (called the "Salvadorean Solution" by our complicit press). Archibishop Romero paid a terrible price: He was assassinated in front of his congregation while consecrating the Eucharist during mass. Chomsky famously notes, in Manufacturing Consent, how little this atrocity was mentioned by our mainstream press while, over the same period, if a leftist even sneezed it was all over the front pages. However, Romero's death did serve to raise awareness to the crimes the U.S. was aiding and abetting, for example in my own case the poet Carolyn Forche spoke about Romero when visiting my campus in the early eighties. It sparked my own political activism.

Some even more famous local examples of progressive religious leaders (though not necessarily "liberation theologists"): Dr. Martin Luther King, William Sloan Coffin, Daniel and Philip Berrigan.

All of the names mentioned above are progressive leaders who loved, worked, and sacrificed for social justice, equality, and peace. This notion that faith leads to reaction, to blind support for the status quo, is due in most part (I believe) to a naive embrace of the religious cartoon blasted through the major media, the Pat Robertson 700 Club cartoon, etc. What we see are indeed the spiritual adjuncts of rightwing political power (oppressive power) -- but that is WHY we see them in the MSM, because they are adjuncts, and why we don't see the progressive-faithful as they would subvert that power. In today's near monopolization of the major media, do you honestly believe you would hear much about a modern Daniel Berrigan?

A NY FOX news program director smirks on an Amy Goodman documentary about the dangers of a monopolized media, "...if we don't report it, did it really happen?". To this point:

The fetishism of the commodity — the domination of society by "intangible as well as tangible things" — attains its ultimate fulfillment in the spectacle, where the real world is replaced by a selection of images which are projected above it, yet which at the same time succeed in making themselves regarded as the epitome of reality.
-- Guy Debord, Society of the Spectacle

So the answer to "if we don't report it, did it really happen?" is "no" for so many of us. What is real is what seems real via the messaging received via a controlled media; everything that falls outside that controlled media is suspect, heard by only a few, challenged, because it does not have the false stamp of credibility given by the MSM. It's a sad state of affairs. But we should not drink the koolaid in one category (the portrayal of religion) when everyone here is quite good of spitting it out elsewhere.

There is a whole other side to "religion" and "the religious" that is seldom seen today, but a little review of history would bring it out. I did not read the Obama speech where he advises the Democratic Party should pay heed to people of faith. From the little I skimmed, it appears Obama advises we embrace the religious-left, a currently untapped silent majority within the many-roomed house of faith. If that is what he advised, I am wholeheartedly in agreement, as the religious left has driven much progressive social change over the years and should be put in the driver's seat again.

[journalist3072]

30. Couldn't agree with you more..

You know, I always say that it's BECAUSE of my religious beliefs that I am a left-of-center person, not in spite of them.

Because I believe that it is a religious value to give everyone healthcare; to ensure we don't leave the poor behind, etc.

But like you, I am more moderate on other issues. Because as much as we need a prosperous economy and the like, we also need a moral society. And one that is not afraid to embrace religion.

[MzShellG]

42. Bingo!!!

Why cant more dems see that? The rethug platform does not reflect christian values. Therefore, they are the party of hypocrites.

[Jo March]

65. I agree totally and say the same thing

When people ask me why I am a Dem, I say, "Because I am a Christian." Jesus taught us to not only love one another but to take care of one another. That's why I also support universal healthcare. We have to take care of the poor and widows and orphans and those who cannot care for themselves.

Yes, it's my "weak-minded" belief in the "invisible cloud being" that tells me that I cannot think only of myself, that I have to care for others and love others and not be prejudice, etc., etc. You know, all of that terrible stuff that religion causes.

:eyes:

[MellowOne]

28. Excellent point

If we didn't have religious roots in our society, think of the kaos we would have.

Roberston doesn't speak for me and most of the people of faith in America.

[SPKrazy]

35. Of Course Robertson, Falwell

don't really speak for many at all

but the media give them a platform because they are into controversy, and know that either of them will do or say something sometime that will be good for ratings.

[Jo March]

66. It's a shame, too, because they could do a lot of good

Robertson, Falwell, and the others could really be a positive force for change in this country. If they would spend more time preaching the beautifula nd loving words of Jesus instead of concentrating on preaching hatred, then the world would be a better place.

Yes, they say whatever will bring them more attention and more money. It's a shame.

[NMMNG]

53. Look at the chaos we have with religious roots in our society

Religion is not necessary for good/moral behavior. Nor is lack of religion.

[SPKrazy]

29. Yes They Are

but prepare to be swarmed by those who will perceive your post (and mine too) as being somehow wrong because I happen to believe in a spiritual realm and am a Christian.

Pat Robertson gives religion a bad name, but many of the people who will bash religion know that damned well. They revel in bashing religion. Remember this is DU, not the Democratic party.

The Democratic party is a big tent. DU is a big tent. Some on DU don't seem to want it to be a Big Tent unless you agree with them.

[Jo March]

67. Well, you have to pick your battles

I've found many on DU to be very intelligent and tolerant. I've dusted up with some DUers but it's only because they (and I) believe so strongly in certain things.

When the heat of the battle is over, it's best to offer an olive branch and remember that we are all on the same team and it is a big tent.

I can't sacrifice my beliefs on the altar of winning. I don't think that I have to.

I don't appreciate being called names or ridiculed, either. It hurts my feelings and it gets tiresome and divisive.

[shadowknows69]

51. I acknowledge the role of faith and religion in people's lives

and I have a lot of faith myself, But just like Iraq it's kind of hard to find the "good news" about it lately. The bad shit is pretty much "in our face"

[Tesha]

54. Probably because more than a few of us...

> Why all the blasphemous attacks on religion here on DU?

Probably because more than a few of us here are starting
to get tired of the truly religiously insane using their
delusions to completely screw up the planet we're forced
to share with them, and we;re starting to think that maybe
the best strategy is to start calling them on their delusions.

Tesha

[lonestarnot]

56. devils are here. LOL Lots of them.

[B2G]

41. Funny

I never see any threads mocking fundamentalist muslim beliefs. One would think you would have a field day with the 72 virgin thingy.

[charlie]

43. Funny

Couple dozen posts under your belt, the bulk of them complaining about threads, calling out posters, and making a big show of your disgust with DU. Yer a laff riot.

You see what you want to see and "never" see what you don't, bwana.

[B2G]

45. Guess I just assumed

I was entitled to an opinion here. My bad.

[Jo March]

68. You are entitled to your opinion

Welcome to DU.

We're like a big old dysfunctional family at a holiday dinner. ;)

[kiahzero]

49. Because it's taken to be ridiculous at face value

Christianity in the U.S. has it's own equally ridiculous ideas and concepts which should be seen as such at face value, but aren't (owing to the large percentage of the country which share them).

[shadowknows69]

52. I'm pagan/wiccan

I have enough to worry about the fundies deciding they should start hanging us again. I need muslim extremeists mad at me like I need a fucking bag on my head. One battle at a time. I used to be an extremist fundie so I'm equipped.

[Jo March]

69. And if they come for you, shadow, I'll have your back

The beauty of this country is the freedom to believe in any religion or no religion. This is one of our most sacred rights, IMHO, and I'll defend to the death your right to worship as you choose.

Just because you do not believe, that does not believe that you are less of a person than me or that you don't deserve the same rights and privileges that I do. I have several wonderful Wiccan friends and I cannot bear to think of them suffering because of their beliefs.

"Love thy neighbor as thyself." Doesn't leave much room for misinterpretation, does it? :D

[shadowknows69]

71. Indeed

thank you for that post.

[Jo March]

72. :)

I'm all about the love, my friend.

:loveya:

[Joanne98]

64. In The Celestial Phophecy..........

The bodies of the enlighten, start vibrating to a higher level of energy, then they disappear into another dimension.

[RagAss]

77. sounds like fun.... is Ticketmaster handling that event??