Israel is rolling tanks. This is what I was most afraid of.

[WilliamPitt]

The bombings on both sides are bad enough. The wrecking of Lebanese infrastructure, the missile attacks into Israel, the massacre of those 20 civilians trying to flee the fighting, was all bad enough. Syria committing its "resources" to Lebanon was a frightening escalation.

But until today, this was all about missiles and air strikes. This was about blowing things up, and not about taking land and holding it.

That just changed. Israel is rolling its armor into Gaza, and that has been what I've been most afraid of. The news people talk about "escalations" all day long, but tactically speaking, missiles and air strikes are about punishment and fear (and maybe about bombing people to the negotiating table), and not about siezing and holding territory.

You can't do that with warplanes and artillery.

You do it with tanks and infantry.

Israel is rolling tanks. This just got worse by orders of magnitude. The armor rolling out is a signal the other nations over there cannot possibly miss.

[karlrschneider]

1. Where did you hear about this? I've been surfing the M$M all

afternoon & haven't heard it mentioned...

[WilliamPitt]

8. MSNBC

The TV said it.

[MnFats]

2. WWIII.....we're all fuggin' doomed.

kiss yer ass g'bye...

[MADem]

7. Over tanks in Gaza? Except for the particulars, what else is new?

Tanks in Gaza are pretty par for the course, over the long haul. If it's not tanks, it's bulldozers. Gaza is "occupied" for all intents and purposes, even when it isn't.

Even tanks in southern Lebanon wouldn't surprise me at this stage.

Am I the only one who remembers Operation Litani and the Green buffer zone?

[MnFats]

10. so i'm a panicky guy.....the country's burning up, too. Fires everywhere!

I guess I can't help myself.

[MADem]

14. Really, Gaza is sad, mean, unkind...but Gaza ain't WW3.

WW3 will happen if "someone" fires a rocket at a US warship off the Lebanese littoral, it blows up like the MAINE did off Cuba, and IRAN somehow gets blamed for it.

I feel for the Palestinians, who have had a rough time all these years, but if you are gonna hear the wet plop of worldwide conflict-shit hitting the fan, it will happen up north, not down south.

IMO.

[Marie26]

72. It seems like

maybe people don't know the difference between the Gaza strip and Lebanon?

[MADem]

75. I think you might be right on that... NT

[Marie26]

44. Apparantly, yes.

Tanks entering Gaza isn't exactly a shocker - Israel only withdrew troops in Sept. 2005, less than a year ago; & Israeli troops have been conducting raids in Gaza since the soldier was captured. The problem is, most Americans have no idea what they're talking about when it comes to Mideast politics, & that includes me. Thanks for mentioning Operation Litani - I had no idea that Israel had already occupied southern Lebanon twice in the last 25 years. Each time, it was provoked by PLO forces lobbing missiles from Southern Lebanon. Now, Hizbollah is lobbing missiles, & it stands to reason that Israel is reacting the same way. It seems like the same exact conflict re-enacted over & over again w/some slight changes in the players. With all the 24-hour coverage of this event, it'd be really nice if the news actually explained the history of this conflict a little. But I guess that would interfere w/the pictures of explosions.

The Wikipedia article on Lebanon is actually very in-depth: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon

Operation Litani -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litani_River_Operation

[fishwax]

52. it would also interfere with spreading fear

With all the 24-hour coverage of this event, it'd be really nice if the news actually explained the history of this conflict a little. But I guess that would interfere w/the pictures of explosions.

It would also interfere with the atmosphere of fear and confusion. Knowledge can alleviate fear, but (despite what we all may have learned in Journalism 101) the M$M is not primarily concerned with conveying knowledge or information, but rather emotion/atmosphere.

[Marie26]

55. Right

Sadly, I have to conclude that you're right about that. An informed public is less vulnerable to the alarmism & propaganda that's being catapulted right now. I learned more about this conflict from reading that one Wikipedia article than from following 5 days of news coverage. It's pretty pathetic.

[fishwax]

50. I agree

I'll not be sealing the door in my bunker just yet.

[knowbody0]

3. certifiable world gone mad

[cali]

4. It's not what I'm most

afraid of. Yes, it's bad news, particularly in Gaza, though the Magistrate made a good argument that in lieu of the bombing of Lebanon, the Israeli should have taken a swath of Southern Lebanon as a buffer zone. What I'm afraid of is the war spreading and becoming a full out regional conflict. There were reports this morning that Israel had bombed along the Syrian Lebanon border. To say that action, if true, is a provocation, is an understatement. And what really scares me is Syria and Iran joining the party directly.

[theHandpuppet]

6. Tripoli isn't far from the Syrian border

So I suspect you're right. :(

[MADem]

11. They've done it before, don't rule out their doing it again

Yassir Arafat set up shop in S. Lebanon back in the late seventies, early eighties, and was pulling this exact same shit. The Israelis went after him at the same time the US convinced Jordan to pull the financial rug out from under him, and Yassir and crew had to haul ass back to Jordan, tail between legs, while the tanks rolled into the "Green Zone."

They stayed there for close to twenty YEARS. The only reason they left is because they were sick of having the odd soldier shot in the occupation zone, and the Israeli population favored putting up a fence and leaving them to their own devices.

Hell, they only withdrew what, five, six years ago???

[Pachamama]

60. I'm most afraid of the Nukes being dropped...

:nuke:

:scared:

[cantstandbush]

5. If only these people were equally armed, Israel would let them alone.

Protected by big bad guns and planes (and mostly from the US) is the only reason Israel is the bully of the ME. Yet people who lay down their lives (their only real weapons)in suicide bombings are called cowards and terrorists. Most countries in the area want to live in peace with Israel but it's a peace that Israel will dishonor in the drop of a hat is they so choose. I fault all the Arab nations that will not unite to bring strength to the Palestinains and Arab cause. The leaders of these government have sold their people out, just as the leaders in Israel have sold their people out to conflict and the low moral ground. It is so unnecessary and so one-sided.

[MADem]

9. The Arab states with oil don't want to piss off the paying customers

Causes tend to go out the window when there is money to be made.

If both sides were equally armed, they'd kill each other, and likely us too, in the bargain.

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[The Stranger]

25. Actually Israel launched preemptive attacks in '48 and '67.

And the Israel-as-Victim rhetoric doesn't work here, as you may have found out.

[cali]

31. Ooh, revisionist history; what fun!

Please provide evidence to back up your claim that Israel was the agressor in 1948. Nor does the assertion that 1967 was unprovoked hold water.

There's plenty to harshly criticize about Israel, particularly today, but the Manichean view that allows for spinning history to this extent, is just pathetic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War

[killbotfactory]

33. Here's an article about 1956 Suez Crisis

It began, improbably, in Wirral. Selwyn Lloyd, the foreign secretary, was visiting his Cheshire constituency on October 21 1956 when he was summoned to Chequers and ordered to take part in a secret meeting that will forever be associated with a fateful lie. Lloyd's mission lay at the heart of the Suez crisis, which rocked the Middle East, British politics and the world half a century ago.

The next day Donald Logan, Lloyd's private secretary, drove his boss incognito to Hendon to take an RAF flight to an airfield outside Paris. The cover story for Foreign Office officials was that Lloyd had a cold: their destination was a villa in the suburb of Sèvres, where, with representatives of France and Israel, they hatched a conspiracy to attack Egypt - and made the mistake of writing it all down.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/egypt/story/0,,1817659,00.html

edit: meant 1956

[The Stranger]

36. Ah, so you have changed from "Israel was attacked" to "unprovoked" in 1967

-- it would seem that "revisionism" plagues the very posts on these boards.

[autorank]

38. The Israel-UK-French grab in the 50's in Suez was called off by IKE!

As in picking up the phone and saying, knock it off right now.

We need someone to send these factions to bed without dinner.

On edit: I never get in these threads so now I'm screwed. Here is how I feel about the whole thing, the article quoted here. I'm now done with Israel/Palestine or similarly constituted threads. Please pardon my intrusion. It will not happen again. ...autorank has left the thread...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1642233&mesg_id=1642923

[Warren DeMontague]

45. Uh huh. They've spent the last 60 years picking on people who want

nothing more than to live side by side with them, in peace.

:crazy: :hi: :crazy:

[springhill]

32. Chris Hedges: Mutually Assured Destruction in the Middle East

Editor’s note: The former Middle East bureau chief for The New York Times and author of the bestseller “War Is a Force That Gives Us Meaning” argues in this Truthdig column that the bloodshed now engulfing Lebanon and Israel will only worsen as long as extremists on both sides continue to indulge in “collective necrophilia.”


ISRAEL’S air, land and sea blockade of Lebanon, which includes jet fighter strikes against the airport in Beirut, presages a new era in the Middle East, one in which the center has collapsed and Muslim and Jewish extremists, capable only of the language of violence, determine the parameters of existence. These strikes, like the suicide bombings carried out by Islamic militants in Iraq or Israel, expose the Ahab-like self-immolation that now inflects the region. And unless it is halted soon, unless those fueling these conflicts learn to speak another language, unless they break free from an indulgence in collective necrophilia, the Middle East will slip into a death spiral.

This has been a long time coming. The Bush administration never had any interest in helping to broker Middle Eastern peace agreements. This willful negligence was seen as befriending Israel, along with the bizarre demands of the Christian right. In fact, the administration befriended only an extreme political wing in Israel that, since the death of Yitzhak Rabin, has done a pretty effective job of endangering the Jewish state by dismantling all mechanisms for peace and turning Israel into an international pariah. As the machinery of Middle Eastern diplomacy rusted shut with disuse it was gleefully replaced by harsher Israeli closures, curfews, shelling and airstrikes. Palestinians have, since Bush arrived in office, been reduced by Israel to a subsistence existence matched only by Africans’. And the tools of repression against Palestinians now match those once imposed on South African blacks by the apartheid regime, with the exception that the South Africans never sent warplanes to bomb the townships.

<snip>

We cannot ascribe equal amounts of moral blame to all sides. Israel is the oppressor in Gaza, the West Bank and now Lebanon. America is the oppressor in Iraq. And there can be no hope for a peaceful resolution to these conflicts until Iraqis are freed from American occupation and Palestinians are allowed to build a viable state. It is the distorting and dehumanizing effects of occupation that made possible the proliferation of extremist groups that, albeit on a smaller scale, simply hand back to the occupier some of their own medicine. The numbers, after all, make clear that most of the victims are Palestinian, Iraqi and now Lebanese civilians, although the numbers game can also obscure the fact that the murder of any innocent by any group is indefensible.

This is the world of the apocalypse. It is the world where those on either extreme become indistinguishable. And if we do not find a new way to speak, and soon, there will be untold suffering—not only for many innocents in the Middle East but eventually innocents at home. It was the Israeli occupation of southern Lebanon that spawned and empowered Hezbollah. It was the decades-long occupation and humiliation of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank by Israel that spawned and empowered Hamas, and it is the brutal American occupation that has bred the legions of extremists in Iraq. And when Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah promises “open war” against Israel, as he did in an address shortly after his Beirut offices were bombed, and Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert says he won’t cease his attack until Israel is secure, it is time to run for cover, especially when George W. Bush is our best hope for peace.

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20060714_chris_hedges_mutually_assured_destruction/

[Warren DeMontague]

46. So, if Israel pulls out of Lebanon and Hezbollah attacks Israel from there

and Israel pulls out of Gaza and the FIRST THING Hamas starts doing (instead of, say, trying to make a better life for Gaza's population) is firing rockets into Israel proper-- how is that an incentive for Israel to stop occupying territories?

They pulled out- something everyone has been demanding that they do- and for that, they are attacked. So how does that make them the aggressor?

[The Stranger]

24. Must have gotten your attention because it made sense, huh.

But the logic of mutually assured destructio is unavoidable, and has saved the planet from U.S. and Russian nukes for half a century.

[Egalitariat]

61. The US and Russia were both rational players. The ME is full of

irrational players. Mutually assured destruction will not work. 72 virgins and all.

[long_green]

28. If "these people" were equally armed, Israel wouldn't exist

equally armed includes quality of troops and officers.

[Solo_in_MD]

51. Been there done, that, the Arabs got their buts kicked...it was in 1973

Arab nations armed with front line Soviet equipment and for the first time the effectiveness of anti tank missiles was shown in actual combat. After a rocky start, Israel would have destroyed the Egyptian army in the Suez and laid siege/taken Damascus without intervention from the US and USSR. However, it was fairly close for the first few days.

For any number of reasons (worthy of its own discussion), the Arab nations are unable to field national forces that rival the effectiveness of the Israelis and there does not seem to be anything that will change that forthcoming.

[sweetheart]

74. Crusaders have been kicked out before

If you check this timeline of crusades, you'll note that they always
break like a tide on the rocks.

http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/christian/blchron_xian_crusades.htm

Perhaps we should just admit that "our" culture includes a narrative of
crusading against islam, and how this cultural divide has people without
a historical view, thinking this crusade is permanent.

[Solo_in_MD]

76. The situtations are not parallel

You could argue that the UN in the Balkans, or the US in the ME is like the Crusades, but the Israel is an established nation and considering that the vast majority of Israelis are secular and are not doing this for religious reasons, your analogy is incorrect. This is Arab v Israel not Jews v Muslims. The religous part is just a side show.

[sweetheart]

77. fuzzy types

Its such a touchy word, as israel is many POV's, including very progressive and pacifist ones, and by
invoking the word as a stereotype, as with jew, arab, palestine, and any identity group, immediate
offense is potent.

On a more secular level, a group of people live in the area, and over years, become ruled by different
soldiers who speak different languages. The tide of the soldiers has become as predictable as a planet's rise,
modern state or no, as people do not take injustice in the face silently, and as this escalates,
so does the stability and all previous consensus amongst peoples. What we know for sure, is that somebody
will live in jerusalem, and the influence of the soldiers will swing to the thug of the day.

[HardRocker05]

59. If the Arabs were the stronger power, they would 'drive Israel into the se

sea' as they like to say. Seriously, if one imagines what the Arabs would do if the military power roles were reversed, it makes it look like Israel is showing incredible restraint. Israel has done plenty of stuff wrong, but most of the Arab states do not even recognize their right to exist, so that could tend to make them a little defensive.

[Emit]

13. Maybe they're moving to contain now

Given the nature of the regime in Damascus, it is both natural and moral that Israel abandon the slogan "comprehensive peace" and move to contain Syria, drawing attention to its weapons of mass destruction program, and rejecting "land for peace" deals on the Golan Heights.

http://www.iasps.org/strat1.htm


Or am I reading too much into this "peace through strength" plan for a 'clean break' from peace talks written back in 1996?

[moondust]

17. The simple fact is

you can't gather up and destroy hidden arms caches from the cockpit of an F-16.

[Warren DeMontague]

19. I'm gonna agree with MADem. If they're rolling BACK into Gaza, that's

not the same thing as if they were rolling tanks into, say, Syria.

It's not good, but it's not the End of the world as we know it, to paraphrase Mr. Stipe.

They only pulled out of Gaza recently. Unfortunately, the Palestinian leadership that could have taken that as an opportunity to demonstrate how they could better their people's lives, instead took that as a cue to step up firing missiles into Israel proper. Oops.

[shadowknows69]

20. Keep being blind then

the big game is about to begin and all our lives will be different and probably worse because of it.

[Warren DeMontague]

66. Oh, it sucks. Wars suck. People need to get along. Israel is far from

blameless.

But a big part of the problem- speaking of "blind", I'm really sorry you can't see this- is the fact that to a large number of Israel's enemies, "peace" means Israel going away. Ceasing to exist. That is the only "peace" which they will accept.

Maybe that's okay with you- maybe you don't believe the UN should have created Israel in '48, that it was unfair, that there are too many grievances on the other side. Those are all viewpoints shared by many- but unfortunately (like pro-lifers who won't admit that criminalizing birth control along with all forms of abortion is the real goal) such people tend to soft-pedal that side of the agenda, and keep insisting that if Israel would "just" do this, or that, or get out of these or those occupied territories, then everything would be hunky dory.

Well, Israel completely pulled out of Lebanon- the UN said so- and Hezbollah kept attacking them. Why?

Israel pulled out of Gaza. Although some would like to argue that the rocket attacks only started after the beach was shelled, in actuality, the rocket attacks on Israel started immediately after they pulled out. Again, why?

There are plenty of people on both sides- I am convinced- that want a realistic peace for the region. Unfortunately, the Palestinian leadership has consistently walked away from every real opportunity. Those, again, are facts. And it's a shame, because a peaceful, secure Israel would do a great deal to improve the lot of its neighbors, economically and otherwise. Again, all they would have to do is recognize Israel's right to exist. But apparently that's too big of a bone for some of them to avoid choking on.

[Chulanowa]

58. What on earth are you talking about?

When Israel pulled out of Gaza, Hamas agreed to a ceasefire and worked to try to get other factions in on the ceasefire as well.

And then a certain someone happened to fire artillery at a civilian beach and killed 8...

[Warren DeMontague]

63. So, you're asserting that there were no rocket attacks before the beach

incident?

None?

Can you provide me a link to back up this particular piece of information??

Why would Israel even bother to pull out- and Destroy the settlements-, if all they were interested in was continuing to attack Gaza?

[Howardx]

22. they need to "pacify" gaza asap

im sure they dont want to be fighting on 2 fronts, im well aware that they have done it before successfully but it isnt the ideal strategic situation.

[jseankil]

23. IDF denies they have moved into Gaza with tanks. -haaretz /nm

nm

[MsMagnificent]

78. Israeli troops reoccupy Gaza

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,19806721-1702,00.html

Israeli troops reoccupy Gaza

By Nidal al-Mughrabi in Gaza
July 16, 2006
Israeli forces clashed with militants in Gaza overnight as tanks moved back into the north of the Strip on an offensive that has continued even as fighting with Lebanese Hezbollah guerrillas opened a second front.

*snip*


I read this article this morning.

[lovuian]

26. Israel is taking over Lebanon and then Syria

its pretty obvious...

[Emit]

29. Yup, I'm afraid so. n/t

[long_green]

30. They'd be spread pretty damn thin. It's not like there are pockets

of Jews living outside Israel. Enlarging their territory would only make them more vulnerable.

[MADem]

53. Again, what else is new, really??

The Golan Heights were grabbed from Syria when they needed a buffer.

The Green Zone in southern Lebanon was grabbed when they needed a buffer there, as well.

This is like the sixties through the nineties all over again....

The only difference is, we have a batshit president who LIKES war.

Other than that, it would be same shit, different day.

[Joe Fields]

34. Haven't any of them learned that you just don't mess with Israel?

[checkmate1947]

68. If you grab

a bull by the horns you can expect to get gored,,,the jews learned their lesson back in WW11, and they will no longer go "quietly into that night".

[Penndems]

35. All of this could've been avoided, Will

This might have been a major foreign policy coup for the current Administration. If the incoming Bush diplomatic team had picked up the ball five years ago from the Clinton Administration, put a Middle East Envoy in place and resumed negotiations, this situation probably wouldn't have developed. We've have secured a cease-fire agreement between Israel and its neighbors, and been well on our way to signing peace accords.

But, in true Bush neocon form, they did NONE of that. So, now we're faced with the prospect of the entire Middle East getting blown to kingdom come.

The Village Idiot's priority is banging down half a wild boar with the Chancellor of Germany and the President of Russia - not wasting his precious time trying to bring about stability between Israel and her Middle Eastern neighbors.

(Partially cross-posted at http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1642504)

[meti57b]

67. Hey, bushy-tush played guitar while the levees broke in NOLA ....

why not a wild boar with his buds as all hell breaks out in the middle east.

[Penndems]

69. "why not a wild boar with his buds as all hell breaks out in the

middle east."

And the brewski. Don't forget the brewski:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1642689

[autorank]

37. K&R ...and amidst all this, we are led by fools.

This is insane beyond belief. I just read Paul Craig Roberts column. He's very down on the prospects of the American people figuring out the scam here...drawing us into a larger war to achieve a number of goals for the neocons. I'm actually disagreeing with my favorite firebrand on this. I have full faith that the American people recognize the incompetence that let this happen and the insane motivation of the perpetrators in starting a conflagration in the Middle East. Watch * move into the mid to low 20's on both job performance and approval.

Through DRer Drduffy in a thread on Editorials.

Paul Criag Roberts on the military action in the ME:

http://www.smirkingchimp.com/article.php?sid=26899&mode=nested&order=0

[Mr_Spock]

39. Israel is sealing their fate

They will, of course, win the battle, but they are pretty much ensuring their eventual destruction. Unless the ME comes to it's senses in the future, they will be blown to smithereens within 50 years.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

40. With Four Hundred Nukes They Will Take A Lot Of People With Them

eom

[Mr_Spock]

41. Great

Might is right?

:-(


You can thank the doctrine of preemption for ensuring that we will go along with whatever Israel decides to do, even if it results in WWIII & the death of millions. Damned end-timers :-(

[DemocratSinceBirth]

48. I'm For A Peaceful Resolution

I was just responding to your suggestion that anybody is going to be "blown to smithereens."

[Mr_Spock]

54. Of course, I am too. I just don't believe Israel can be superior forever.

They have decided that they are the superior force there - this cannot be true ad infinitum.

[RummyTheDummy]

56. Nice thought but you can forget about it

When you're dealing with two sides who covet the struggle, the turmoil and the violence, a peaceful solution isn't in the cards.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

42. When will the other Arab nations be forced to respond?

Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, The Gulf States? Some, if not most, of them are pretty fragile as governments with populations that are restive about their constant knuckling under to the West and Israel. I would think that, at some point, to protect themselves from their own people they will have to, at least, make a show of fighting back.

Though I think it highly unlikely that they would respond with force, the demand to shut off the oil could be used as a display of backbone to keep the masses in line.

Israel may have stirred up a hornets nest that's already buzzing because of BushCo's ambitions to "spread democracy" by force.

Somebody, somewhere, better start acting like adults or this situation could truly get out of hand.

[leesa]

57. What does Israel ALWAYS do? Take land and hold it. It's their

specialty, stealing land and brutalizing the occupants...oh, and then acting all innocent when someone retaliates.

[McCamy Taylor]

64. Israel is being duped by Bush. They think they are going to get US

back up when they need it (now). But what they will get instead is vengence after they become a martyr. This will allow Bush to have his war with Iran in a political popular form.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1644100

[rman]

73. The US has been backing Israel for the past decades

with financial aid to the tune of several Billion/year.
So it's not that far-fetched of Israel to think the US will back them now.

[otokogi]

65. israel has had the armor out for over a week now...

fyi

[alcibiades_mystery]

71. Indeed...post is about a week late

Gaza is in the south, Lebanon in the north. Jeez.

[lovuian]

70. Tanks mean more escalation

and closer to Syria...

[mmonk]

79. An iron fist concerning the Palestinians

is always the first option it seems. I'm not sure if that alone escalates the Lebanon situation though it won't help.

[malaise]

80. More Lebanese killed

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/E821E46B-A4DA-46B9-8FD5-FE461210664B.htm

This includes the report on MSNBC which mentions the four villagers.