Public Schools Perform Near Private Ones in Study

[proud2BlibKansan]

LOL Check out this week's Friday news dump.

Public Schools Perform Near Private Ones in Study

By DIANA JEAN SCHEMO
Published: July 15, 2006
WASHINGTON, July 14 — The Education Department reported on Friday that children in public schools generally performed as well or better in reading and mathematics than comparable children in private schools. The exception was in eighth-grade reading, where the private school counterparts fared better.

The report, which compared fourth- and eighth-grade reading and math scores in 2003 from nearly 7,000 public schools and ore than 530 private schools, found that fourth graders attending public school did significantly better in math than comparable fourth graders in private schools. Additionally, it found that students in conservative Christian schools lagged significantly behind their counterparts in public schools on eighth-grade math.

The study, carrying the imprimatur of the National Center for Education Statistics, part of the Education Department, was contracted to the Educational Testing Service and delivered to the department last year.

It went through a lengthy peer review and includes an extended section of caveats about its limitations and calling such a comparison of public and private schools “of modest utility.”

Its release, on a summer Friday, was made with without a news conference or comment from Education Secretary Margaret Spelling.

more . . .
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/15/education/15report.html?ei=5094&en=34e899e81366f289&hp=&ex=1153022400&adxnnl=1&partner=homepage&adxnnlx=1152964855-snSD8lmeiqyvDiItjEkCmQ

[mom cat]

I guess that Fundy schools don't teach that 2=2+4.

[proud2BlibKansan]

9. huh?

And public schools do?

[mom cat]

11. Not great, but the study did find that public school students did

better in math.

[proud2BlibKansan]

12. Most of the private schools here still use the drill and kill method

to teach Math.

Public schools teach problem solving and critical thinking.

[ulysses]

1. "modest utility" indeed.

:D

[proud2BlibKansan]

8. Well of course they are going to say that

Remember this? It's one of my favorite evil repukelican stories:

When I was chairman of the Federal Communications Commission (1993-97), I asked Bill Bennett to visit my office so that I could ask him for help in seeking legislation that would pay for internet access in all classrooms and libraries in the country.
<skip>
At any rate, since Mr. Bennett had been Secretary of Education I asked him to support the bill in the crucial stage when we needed Republican allies. He told me he would not help, because he did not want public schools to obtain new funding, new capability, new tools for success. He wanted them, he said, to fail so that they could be replaced with vouchers,charter schools, religious schools, and other forms of private education.
http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2005/10/1/105329/697

Those damn bastards. I truly hope they burn in hell for a looonngggg time.

[madaboutharry]

2. Nearly 70% of students at Ivy League Universities

are products of the public school system.

[pooja]

3. I would actually like to see the comparable studies

most private schools do not do the standardized testing... also a lot of "private" schools cater to those who have serious disabilities and would not register well with avg. Americans
Private schools that have money and teach to a worldly curriculum are better.. Why do rich people spend so much to send their children to private schools...

[proud2BlibKansan]

4. It was the same test

It wouldn't be a valid study otherwise. :eyes:

[ulysses]

5. and since when do "a lot" of private schools

cater to those with serious disabilites?

[proud2BlibKansan]

7. Makes these results even more significant

We tested kids with disabilities; they probably did not.

[Yupster]

14. No - the study said

private and public schools do similarly with "comparable" students.

That's the whole point for many parents who send their kids to private schools. They want their kids in schools with "comparable" students to "their kids." In other words, few underperforming kids from broken families and inner city neighborhoods.

[proud2BlibKansan]

17. They compared kids in similar socio economic and racial groups.

In other words, poor white kids kids to poor white kids and middle class minority kids to middle class minority kids, etc.

My public school was part of the NAEP test last year (that is the test they used for this study). The NAEP results do not separate scores of kids with disabilities from kids who do not have disabilities. They only separate scores by race and socio economic status.

Since public schools educate far more kids with disabilities than private schools, the public school scores include more kids with disabilities than the private school scores.

[Yupster]

20. Correct

the study compared poor minority kids in public schools to poor minority kids in private schools, and they each did equally bad.

Thre aren't many poor minority kids in private schools, which is why so many parents send their kids to private schools.

[proud2BlibKansan]

22. But the public school is more likely to have kids with disabilities

than the private school. That makes the public school scores more impressive.

That was our point.

[Yupster]

32. I don't think it does

Since it compares students of comparable circumstances all it's saying is that a disabled kid in public school does as well as a disabled kid in private school.

But since there are virtually no disabled kids in private school, what does that mean?

Pretty little don't you think?

[proud2BlibKansan]

35. It is more difficult for a public school to educate

the non disabled kids when they have kids with disabilities enrolled also. This is a HUGE advantage private schools have.

Here's an example. Let's say I am a Math teacher. I teach a unit for say, two weeks, then test the kids and move on to the next unit. In a private school, most of the kids get it, most do their homework and most likely all pass that test at the end of the unit. In a public school, I have 3 kids with disabilities in my Math class. The budget was cut so I have no paraprofessional to help the kids with disabilities. They all get special ed services, but not for Math. So I am on my own. I have to teach the unit, test the kids and reteach the concepts they didn't master. Half my kids don't do their homework and a fourth of them don't complete daily assignments in class. That is not a concern in the private school since every kid there knows if he doesn't keep up, he will get kicked out. Not true in public schools. So at the end of my unit in a public school, I can't move on to the next unit since too many of my kids didn't master the previous unit.

So by the beginning of the third or fourth week of the school year, private schools are moving beyond their public school counterparts, in terms of the curriculum that is taught.

Then in April everyone takes the NAEP. So for a public school to do as well as or even almost as well as a private school on the same test is almost miraculous.

This report really IS a big deal and really DOES make public schools look not only good, but great. Is it any wonder that the bushies waited for the Friday news dump to release it???

[proud2BlibKansan]

10. "a lot of private schools cater to those who have serious disabilities" ??

On what planet? :rofl:

Both Ulysses and I are special ed teachers. You couldn't be more wrong about this claim.

Oh and where I live the rich people spend so much money to send their kids to private schools so they can keep them away from the trashy kids who go to public schools. Same reason their kids go swimming at the country club instead of the public pool.

[Bigmack]

13. Special Ed teachers....

are a special breed. Thank you for your service!

Woe to the public school with a great special ed program. People come from miles around so their LD or Sp Ed can attend those great programs. Some of those kids need 1 to 1 tutoring and are very expensive.

Private schools that I know have no Special Ed programs and certainly don't deal with BD kids or just screwed-up kids.

[proud2BlibKansan]

16. Why thank you!

Every once in awhile here on DU, we hear this claim that private schools cater to kids with disabilities. But like I said, those of us in the field have absolutely no idea where these schools are. I do know there are a few very exclusive private schools (mainly on the east coast) that specialize in working with LD kids. But certainly not "most" private schools anywhere.

But then again, maybe the poster means that having rich parents is a disability? :)

[DFLer4edu]

23. "On what planet?"

Exactly what I was thinking!

[senseandsensibility]

26. I'm glad you explained that.

I get very frustrated reading the claims on some of these "education" threads. I've been a teacher for twenty plus years, and the misinformation spread by even liberal, well meaning people is disheartening. It's the reason I stay off these threads most of the time.

[proud2BlibKansan]

27. Glad to help out

:)

[fishwax]

31. care to back up any of those claims?

also a lot of "private" schools cater to those who have serious disabilities and would not register well with avg.

Which schools are these again? Public schools don't have the choice, as private schools do, of turning away challenging students. And the suggestion that "a lot" of private schools cater to those with serious disabilities seems patently absurd. On what basis do you make this claim?

Private schools that have money and teach to a worldly curriculum are better.

Again, the available evidence seems to be against you, though perhaps you know of studies that indicate otherwise? This study, released by people with a significant vested interest in the viability of public schools and the inferiority of public schools, seems to show public schools doing quite well. Perhaps you have some evidence to support your claim?

Why do rich people spend so much to send their children to private schools.

So they don't have to deal with the riff raff, I suppose ...

[proud2BlibKansan]

37. And I was wondering just what a

"worldly curriculum" is. :)

[rurallib]

6. Parochial and religious kicked ass in the creationism section

Also scored a knockout in biblical history and miracle evaluation. TAKE THAT you pagans!

[DFLer4edu]

15. They also had better scores in pseudoscience

[AngryAmish]

43. I was taught evolution at my Catholic school

But evolution not banned under Catholic doctrine.

[tinfoil tiaras]

18. Does that study apply to Jackson Mississippi?

Cause if it does, I would be really shocked. Seriously. Or maybe I've just been brainwashed into thinking JPS was, is and always will be 2 years behind my private school (don't worry, I don't go to some crazy ass Jesus school or a segregation academy; my school's a rare gem round these parts).

Mississippi is a sad place for education though. There are a few good public school districts (Ocean Springs, Madison and Ridgeland are 3 I can think of), i'll give them that, but mostly, Mississippi has very poor public schools. Especially in the delta. Those schools are still segregated; the white kids go to the academies (which aren't much better than the public schools) and the black kids go to the shitty public schools.

Bleh... =( =(

[proud2BlibKansan]

19. It includes kids all across the country

NAEP is pretty far reaching.

[Yupster]

24. It does, but the key phrase

is that it compares "comparable students."

For instance it might find that white kids with above average income parents do equally well in private and public schools. That's group A.

And minority kids from single mom families do much worse but equally bad in private and public school. That's group B.

The difference is that in the public school your kid might have 16 members of Group A in his class and one member of group B.

In the local public school your kid might have 16 members of group B in his class and 1 member of group A.

The kids in the private school will do much, much better than the kids in the public school, but measuring "comparable students," they will do the same.

[tinfoil tiaras]

33. Oh, yeah I see

School districts that are predominantly white and middle-upper class like Madison and Ocean Springs would be group A. My cousin goes to Ocean Springs public schools and their curriculum is basically the same as my private school.

Group B would be like the public schools in the delta and some of JPS that are predominantly poor minorities and are at least 2 years behind my private school curriculum wise.

People, especially where I live, think that all public schools are shit (exept for Madison, but I don't really count Madison as a public school-just a REALLY big private school-rich and white). Bleh. =(

[Yupster]

40. I understand, but

my point was that according to this study both those school districts would perform equaly well with "comparable students," even though the first one was on average two grade levels above the other one or more.

The study really says very little other than it's easy to manipulate math and statistics.

You have wo schools and in the inner city school the average kid has a fifth grade reading level and the neighboring suburban school has an average ninth grade reading level. Are you helping matters when you report that the two schools are doing equally well among "comparable students?"

It doesn't change the fact the the kids at the one school are hopelessly far behind the kids at the other school.

[SensibleAmerican]

21. What did study shows is that non-religious private schools fare better

However, when combined with religious private schools, the students fare the same as public school students.

[ConsAreLiars]

25. I gues you didn't read it. Your faith-based assertion might be

accurate (who knows?) but the study itself made no such comparison. The great majority of private schools were religious, and they did bot break out the others as a separate group. Your "belief" assertion might still be true, but your assertion that this study supports it is definitely false.

[proud2BlibKansan]

28. Yes it did say that

They did break the private schools into religious and non religious groups.

[ConsAreLiars]

29. Can you provide at least a page number to support your claim?

I scanned through the document, rather quickly I admit, and I did a search for "non-religious" and for "non religious" and got zero. Perhaps you are telling the truth about this, but I can find absolutely no evidence to suggest that is the case. Maybe you can point to the evidence you claim is there, in that study, that supports your otherwise baseless claims.

[proud2BlibKansan]

36. It is in the NY Times article

which is now inaccessible to me since I am not a subscriber.

I scanned the report very briefly. I was looking for authors and universities, etc, since the article had already told me what schools they were comparing.

But I am not the only one who read that in the article. There are several comments in this thread about the religious schools' scores.

[fishwax]

30. oh, i'm sure if the results were different there would be a similar lack

of fanfare by the education department :rofl::eyes:

The bolded line says it all. I'm surprised this report ever saw the light of day.

[LWolf]

34. Here's my response from the post in the Ed forum:

This isn't really news, regardless of the study.

It's the effect of the study on public perception that is the telling point. People are surprised to hear that public schools do just as good a job as private schools. It goes against the last few decades of anti-public school propaganda, which is pervasive enough to be in evidence here at DU as well as out there in the "general public."

What has been clearly known, all along, despite all propaganda to the contrary, is this:

The single biggest factor in academic gains is not anything school does. It's SES.

Public school systems can't do anything to address SES. So they address every other factor. Public school systems have to deal with everything. The system has to be broader. Private school systems often have a narrower curriculum, narrower focus, and narrower range of issues they are prepared to deal with. So when the two come out even, public school is ahead. Private schools aren't dealing with the same numbers, of students or challenges, as public schools, yet don't really do any better.

What this study points to, in my opinion, is something the general public would like hushed up. People aren't choosing private schools because of the academics. That's a smokescreen to cover their real reasons; they don't want their kids exposed to "them." "Them" being anyone different from "us." It's social and class bigotry hiding behind academics.

[proud2BlibKansan]

38. We need to keep pounding that fact out here

We in the field know it and we have an obligation to educate DUers. Thank you for an extremely articulate explanation (as usual).

:hi:

[LWolf]

39. Any time.

;) :kick:

[ulysses]

41. but doing something about SES would require actual hard work

on the part of the whole society, and we're just not up for that these days, unfortunately. Or maybe we are, but we haven't been challenged in that direction in my lifetime.

[LWolf]

42. I long ago came to the conclusion that

one of the main objectives of the propaganda war on public education is to distract people from the reality:

Our current financial system cannot support itself without a large population of poor people working for less than a living wage. It benefits the wealthy and the corporate state to keep a large underclass. There is no way that we are going to have a "Great Society" as long as it doesn't benefit TPTB.

[ulysses]

44. yes, indeed. n/t

[AngryAmish]

45. My 2 cents

By any objective standard the public schools in Chicago are a nightmare. I live in Chicago now but grew up in the suburbs. I went to Catholic school in a middle/upper middle class town. I think that for the average kid my school was better (all kids but 1 in my graduating class went to college --but that is anecdote and by no means supported by data). But for kids who were outliers on the bell curve the public school was much better.

Bottom line for me now: If I was in Chicago there is no way my child is going to public school. They are awful.

If I was in the suburbs with much greater resources then I would consider it.