"Israel should stop the killing of defenseless Lebanese civilians."

[bigtree]

(07.16.06, 18:03)

Mubarak: Israel will not win the conflict in Lebanon

Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak said that he believes that "Israel will not be victorious in the current conflict."

According to the report Mubarak called for an immediate ceasefire and said that "Israel should stop the killing of defenseless Lebanese civilians." (AFP)

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3276783,00.html

[moondust]

1. Did he mention anything about

"the killing of defenseless Israeli civilians?"

[BillZBubb]

2. Israel isn't killing Israeli civilians. They are murdering Lebanese.

[moondust]

4. That was a cute little distortion.

Do you know any other tricks?

[BillZBubb]

9. Your point was the distortion.

How many Israeli civilians had died due to attacks BEFORE Israel started murdering Lebanese innocents? Answer that one honestly if you can.

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. Over 500 since Israel puilled out

of both Lebanon and Gaza, any other questions?

Oh I forgot, many of them WERE CHILDREN, and WOMEN, some of them even elderly... and some by katyusha rockets, this is very close to the war that existed between 1967 and 1973, low level warfare, but war nonetheless

[bigtree]

17. none of that justifies the killing of innocents in Lebanon by Israel

whose leaders profess to be so concerned with the loss of innocent lives.

It makes no sense to be so concerned when innocent Israelis are killed (as we should be), and be so sanguine about innocent Lebanese caught in the way of Israel's reprisals against a splinter group.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. Look Dead is dead

it does not matter whether you are Jewish, Catholic, Lebanese, Israeli, or what have you, dead is dead

But the world does have a double standard. When we have suicide bombings in Israel, neer a bleep in the world press, and many of those victims are babies... when a lebanese kid is killed, we have the world screaming. this cycle did not start two weeks ago, nor did it start four weeks ago, it started in 2000.

Realty is that it will not end until people stop enabling both sides... and the children are forced to the table or the radicals have their way... by that I mean, people like Hisbollah who ARE NOT the majory, manage to somehow threaten the existence of Israel. At that moment the Israelis will implement Samson, and nukes will fly... on the bright side the Jewish problem in the ME (yes that is the way some of these people talk) will be solved, and our global warnming will be solved as well. That is one possible end to this

The other, and far more hopeful after this phase of violence is over governments who benefit from this state of affairs will see so many diminished returns that they will decide to break the cycle

But as I said at the top, dead is dead... and yes the world does have a double standard.

Oh and in case you wonder, we may still see peace because many IN THE REGION recognize the need... to break the cycle and recognize that ALL sides are not right, are not wrong, and have hands that are quite bloody, and I mean ALL SIDES.

[bigtree]

45. I've seen widespread condemnation of the killing of Israelis

especially in the U.S. where the majority of our citizens have strong support for Israel.

Most of those who are criticizing Israel's response, including Egypt (albeit, not in direct terms), have condemed the shelling by Hizbollah and the resulting Israeli deaths.

I think the response here reflects that we have more responsibility and influence over our own government, and, because of its close relationship with Israel, we have more of an opportunity to influence them than, I would argue, do the Lebanese with Hizbollah.

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. I've heard it from Mubarak and some of the leaders

but I am talking of the world press... now I will be brutally fair here, the word press is at times even less fair to PALESTINIAN casualties in this mess

Sadly this is waht both people's have in common... and if they realized it, they could get far together.

[springhill]

52. Oh man, you have got to be joking!!!!!!

In the mainstream media it is absolutely the opposite of how you describe it. When there is a suicide boming in Israel it is big news. They never talk about the Palestinian lives that are being lost. Have you been watching Fox News again?

It is the internet which has brought attention to the loss of lives on the Palestinian side. And those lives are just as important.

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. I am talking of the world media

by the way, you are right, the palestinians are ignored even further... reality is that the Palestinians and the Israelis have far more in common if they just stopped long enough to realize it.

[BillZBubb]

19. Nice try. But not germaine.

How many died in the immediate leadup (one or two months) to this Israeli aggression?

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. So I am to believe that 500 Israeli lives

some of them Arab Israeli by the way, are less valuable to their loved ones than the Lebanese kids?

This is the problem we have... some people like to devalue the lives of some.

You wanted numbers, you got it, and this crisis truly did not start two months ago, but soon Israel pulled out. By the way were you screaming this loudly as Katyushas landed in Israel over the last few years?

Crickets I take it...

Ah why many beleive the left is antisemitic, It was just a Jew, just an Israeli who cares?

(Before you accuse me of accusing of being antisemitic, this is the way your post reads...)

[SammyBlue]

28. And who attacked who in 1967 and 1973??? The Arabs attacked and murdered

Jews. . .but that's fine by the world's standard, since Jews are sub-human and can be killed. Jewish blood has been and will continue to be cheap to the world.

[hfojvt]

41. where does that number come from?

And is Israel following their typical policy of responding to every attack with a massive attack of their own? The one time I looked it up, "the score" was 900 Israeli's dead from 'terrorist' attacks, 3000 Palsetinians dead from Israeli attacks.

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. From tehir numbers and that was the number

compiled by me from news reports... and 900 is even worst, that said, you are looking at a crisis that did NOT start yesterday, or two weeks ago, but truly this is the result of a buildup.... this massive response (which plays into Hisbollah's hands) came from attacks that started almost the moment Israel pulled out

[Rufus T. Firefly]

58. So it's okay to kill people who had nothing to do with those attacks?

By that rationale you must support the Iraq war as well. I'd respect that since it wouldn't be hypocritical.

Israel has a right to defend itself, but I'm hard pressed to believe bombing civilians does anything but make more terrorists - just like in Iraq.

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. First off I don't support the war in Iraq

second off, I don't relish the death of civilains.... recognizing what leads to this may help though.

One side is firing on cviilains while takin cover behind civilians... read the geneva convention and the use of human shields.

It is also a reality of war that in war, yuong people die (troops) and there is nothign you can do to change that, and in war civilans die.

by the way you did hear Hesbollah declaring total war, ddin't you?

Stop blaming one side, it is both...

[Rufus T. Firefly]

65. I agree that both sides are to blame,

and I'd like nothing more than see Hesbollah and Hamas wiped off the face of the earth. But we're talking about noncombatants.

A Lebanese life is worth the same as an Israeli life, and an Iraqi life is worth the same as an American life. When we don't believe this to be true we cease to be human beings. I understand that in a war innocent people will always die, and that's why I don't like war unless it's necessary.

But to see people explain away innocent deaths in the same way that the right-wing does when it suits their ends makes me uncomfortable.

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. I don't think any life is less valuable

but reality is until hisbollah in this case, stops launching missiles from houses and building their infrastructure in the middle of civilian neighborhoods.... and by the way we will never really know if the people wanted them to do this, (the civies) or they were forced to. I still remember the story from a Red Cross crew in el Salvador, they survived, but barely. they were attacked after transporiting army troops. The guerrilla just took them apart. They were forced to do this by the Salvadoran Army Commander, and if they had not lived, we would never know that. Oh and the guerrilla were completely on the legal side to mortar and then shoot that ambulance.

Look what I just listed are violations of the laws of land warfare. Are those ideal laws, absolutely, but they exist for a reason and it is to try to confine combat when it happens to actual combatants.

I abhor war, but I also think people have to recognize why we are here...

[wakeme2008]

3. I did not read about any 500lb bombs being dropped on

any defenseless Israeli civilian... :grr:

[moondust]

6. So this is about some 500-lb bomb and not Iranian-made rockets?

Are you by any chance a member of Hezbollah?

[wakeme2008]

8. No I am a Democrat with his eyes open

:)

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. Answer about the missiles

Katyushas also kill, sorry, to braek this to you

NOBODY and I mean NOBODY in this has clean hands... got it?

[wakeme2008]

16. who knows where they got the Russian missles

Do you know 100% where they came from... I do not think so.

[Zynx]

20. We don't know for sure, but we know who fired them.

It was Hezbollah.

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. You were in Nam

let me ask you something, if you were fired upon from a Hooch, as it actually happened many a times... did you hold fire back thinking there might be kids there?

You were in Nam, you know very well that the laws of land warfare state quite clearly that you are not to use civilians as shields, you are telling me that somehow Hisbollah , who has been firing these missiles from Houses, is somehow doing something right?

War is war, is war is war... and this crisis did not start two weeks ago...

[wakeme2008]

50. Where the families on the beach sunbathing

firing on the Israeli ship when it decided to shell the beach.. NO

Were the jets carrying 500lb bombs being shot at when they dropped their bombs.. NO

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. And I can cite many examples from the Nam

unfortunately that beach was used to fire missiles at Israelis, and you should know how trigger happy and nervous people get when they get repeteadly shot at from the same location.

And yes I will say the same thing that you have heard many times... accidents happen

As to the Jets.. pal, many of those bombs are falling on the infrastructure for Hisbollah... the fact that Hizbollah is placing these facilities in the middle of residential areas should give you pause, just like Hamas is using a beach, used by civies, to fire upon Israel. When both of those organziations stop hiding behind civies we can talk

By the way, when the British Military went into Kibutzim in the period of 46-48 looking for Irgun bombers, they had the exact same justification... and they were just as brutal... but their troops were dying.

By the way how many of the NVA irregulars hid in hooches and how many of those hooches were later bombed by our own troops when the NVA was no longer there? Unfortunately this is the nature of guerrilla and asymetrical warfaer... but as long as both Hamas and Hisbollah hide among civilians, well civilans will pay the price. Is this an unfortunate side effect of war? Absolutely, but as you well know war is hell...

[wakeme2008]

60. OK so you are happy about all the kids the US are killing in Iraq.

:shrug:

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. No, but I recognize the reality of what is going on

having been a medic running into the middle of the muck to protect kids, and listening to survivors of the CentraL American Mess I am a lot more jaded it seems than you are

Bu the way, do those Jewish kids who have died in this conflict have less of a life to look forwards too?

You as a vet should recognize what is going on... tell hezbollah to stop using human shields.

[wakeme2008]

63. You sound just like Bush and Rummy

blaming all the Iraq kids death on them being used as "human shields"

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. Well unfortunately what Hizbollah has done

meets the legal definition under the Geneva Convention

Have the Iraquis used other iraqis as shields when figthign us? No, they have not, has Hisbollah used civilians as shields? Yes... they have

They have used HOUSES to fire those missiles from, guess what? Under the laws of land warfare, that house just became a valid target... It is unfortunate, yes... have these people volunteered? I don't know if the Hisbollah members came in and forced them (another breach of International law) or they volunteered. Unfortunately the dead don't tell us this things. And I am not blaming anybody... just stating a fact. If you should go to war and use a civilian house to fire upon combatants, those combatants are free and clear to answer in kind. Hell we did it across Europe douring the big one and I am sure nobody shed too many tears for the civilians who were killed.

It is amazing to me that you are willing to defend the practice of hiding katyusha launching pads in houses... that is what this soudns to me like.

[Cha]

18. Quit accusing a member

our Board of being in the hizbollah.

[moondust]

24. You do recognize

the meaning of a question mark, no? And how "accusing" differs from "inquiring"?

[Cha]

38. I'm just sayin'..

[Rufus T. Firefly]

59. But you know exactly what you are doing.

The manner of the question is to imply that anyone who opposes the means Israel is using is a terrorist-lover. Nice Republican trick that we've adopted here.

[moondust]

66. Indeed.

I'm inquiring as to whether someone who happens to promote a half-blind, one-sided political argument is actually a member of the political party that publicly espouses that half-blind, one-sided line of thinking. It's a legitimate question.

Thanks for posting your presumptions.

[malaise]

29. Amazing

how people ignore scale.

[TahitiNut]

5. In your opinion, which side has the right to kill defenseless civilians?

Pray tell me, as you answer, which civilians are most "defenseless"? Inquiring minds want to know.

[moondust]

7. Defenseless is defenseless.

Whether sitting in their apartment in Beirut or in Haifa.

Any other questions?

[TahitiNut]

13. So, the name "Israeli DEFENSE Force" is meaningless, huh?

I wonder how many tanks, fighter aircraft, bombers, and 500lb bombs the "Hezbollah Defense Force" has.

In a related question, how many Israeli "civilians" are in the IDF reserve military, serving up to one month every year? Let's compare that to the Palestinian and Lebanese "civilians." How many Israeli civilians have been given military training and have military experience? Palestinian? Lebanese?

The word "defenseless" means without defenses. When I read or hear repeated hyperbole, I strongly suspect the case is too weak to rely on facts.

[Zynx]

23. Hezbollah may not have tanks and planes, but they do have an arsenal

of death as well.

[moondust]

27. Call it whatever you want.

Call it the Israeli Self-Preservation Force. What does that change?

Incidentally, while on the topic, what exactly is Hezbollah "defending" when they lob rockets and missiles over the border killing Israelis and actually cross the border to kill and kidnap Israelis? Is that some new definition of "defense"?

[TahitiNut]

31. Strange.

When I was in Nam, we called the troops captured by Charlie "POWs" and said they were "captured" ... not "kidnapped."

I just love the appallingly biased propaganda - and how it rots minds.

:eyes:

[moondust]

37. I actually prefer "captured."

Which it is, quite plainly, when the captured is a soldier. Of course that constitutes an act of war. What should anyone in their right mind expect to happen when they commit an act of war against someone else?

[bigtree]

39. Hizbollah seems to be muckraking for chaos with their shelling.

Unfortunately, Israel is obliging with their bombing and its 'collateral' killings of innocent Lebanese. I think they would have been better served to work with the Lebanese government in a cooordinated campaign against the militarized forces of Hizbollah. Indeed, there was an opportunity for negotiations with Syria which was shunned by Israel earlier this year.

The notion that the route Israel has taken is their only defense seems wrongheaded in the face of the escalation that has occurred. Like in Iraq, there seems to be a stubborn insistence that MORE militarism is the answer, but, I don't think Israel or the U.S. should be drawn into potentially misguided killings as reprisals against every splinter oganization which lobs rockets or explodes a bomb. It just plays into the hands of those who really don't want a 'peace' process, and creates a new wave of recriminations and reprisals.

We used to understand this. That was the basis for continuing the peace process in the face of continuing violent attacks on both sides.

[B2G]

10. Are the dead in Lebanon

any more dead that those in Haifa?

[TahitiNut]

15. "more" in the sense of more numerous ... yes.

:shrug:

[Zynx]

21. You're talking about within the same order of magnitude.

Let's only criticize Israel since they killed 100 and Hezbollah only killed 23! /sarcasm

[bigtree]

11. Jordan, Egypt point finger at Hezbollah in Lebanon crisis

Fri Jul 14, 1:19 PM ET

AMMAN (AFP) - Jordan's King Abdullah II and Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak have condemned Israeli military aggression in Lebanon but also indirectly criticized Hezbollah for harming Arab interests.

The leaders warned of the risk of "the region being dragged into 'adventurism' that does not serve Arab interests," according to a joint statement published by the Petra news agency after the leaders met in Cairo.

Similar language was used earlier by Saudi Arabia, which indirectly accused the Lebanese Shiite fundamentalist movement Hezbollah of "adventurism" in provoking Israel's onslaught on Lebanon and putting all Arab nations at risk.

The Egyptian and Jordanian leaders urged the Lebanese government "to establish its authority over all of Lebanese territory" as they condemned and called for an immediate halt to Israeli military escalation in Gaza and Lebanon.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060714/wl_mideast_afp/mideastunrestegypt_060714171944

[Zynx]

22. Well....duh. Of course they are.

[stray cat]

25. Is it ok if Hizballah keeps their weapons and continues attacks?

[bigtree]

30. Egypt doesn't think Hizbollah should be attacking Israel

I believe they backed the resolution for them to disarm, but I'm not certain.

At any rate, their point is valid. All of the effort to conflate their opposition of Israel's actions with support of Hizbollah's shelling is not supported by the Egyptian leadership's statements. They have called for the release of the prisoners "abducted" by Israel.

[magellan]

26. Well, this thread is fun.

But if I want to watch a war there's a real one on tv. And it's just as pointless, I might add.

[bigtree]

33. Why shouldn't Mubarak's response be a part of the debate?

Egypt could be an important part of any resolution to the conflict. The U.N. negotiating team arrived in CAIRO to begin negotiations for an end to the mess.

How about a substinative contribution to the discussion? That would help.

[leftchick]

40. I agree bigtree

All arab states should be screaming about this and asking where the fuck is the US condemnation?

[magellan]

44. I didn't say it shouldn't

I was commenting on the lack of substinative contribution, the back and forth, Israel did this first, that's nothing compared to what Hizbollah did, yada yada, blah blah blah that overtook what I was hoping to be an educational discussion on the topic of Egypt's stance. I don't know enough about Mubarak's/Egypt's position and how much weight it carries to form a useful opinion pertaining to your OP.

[bigtree]

46. The back and forth is a problem. I hope we can remain sensitive

to the strong feelings that are an inevitable result of our care and concern.

[magellan]

49. I'm sensitive to it

This is the fourth thread I've replied to regarding Israel/Palestine and the whole mess since it kicked off last week. I've been intentionally hanging back because I know how strong feelings are, and anyway, I'm of the mind that all the extremists, including those in Israel, deserve swift kicks. There's no moral ground between any of them. They're all as bad as Bush** and his thugs with their utter lack of regard for life and the desire of their people for peace.

Sorry for jumping on like I did. It just ticks me off no end to click on an interesting subject like yours and find a thread trashed with yet more fingerpointing. The world's had enough of that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. Ok Mubarak is in a very difficult spot

it is EXPECTED that he condemns Israel, and there are grounds, possibly, for condemnation... We truly do not know the full story, and I fear we will not know the full sfory for years.

But he also has another problem, Muslim Brotherhood, he does not have the control of Egypt he once did, so if he comes too hard on Hisbollah he might have other problems and even soem problems with the Army.

As to the Lebanese Governemnt, they were required to disarmn Hisbollah and ALL OTHER MILITIAS, but... here is the huge but, they have no powoer to really do it, nor the political will. They also know that if they try, can you all say civil war II?

[magellan]

51. Thank you!

I'm familiar with some of what you wrote but couldn't see the forest for the trees. Your synopsis has helped clarify things, thanks. :)

The call for an immediate ceasefire could be seen as Mubarak riding the fence, perhaps further weakening him, then? Yet I have to agree with it, nothing can come from a continuation along the current tack except further escalation.

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. Yep... he is truly on the razor'd edge

reality is that everybody who has been enabling here, ranging from Syria, to Iran to the US, need to step back and stop enablign it in hopes that the pattern will be broken

[magellan]

56. One would think it'd be obvious that the external meddling needs to stop

Particularly to people in so-called leadership positions. But most of the time it seems the only people with any common sense are those without any power. Sadly those are the same people who tend to become "collateral damage" in these kinds of situations. We're all just pawns in the so-called leaders' chess game.

It's always been so. And I hate it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

57. Read this threat

all are mostly pounding on oen side for finally reacting to events that started in 2000, while ignoring what led to this situtation.

There is hope though, mothers in the area have basically raeched the same conclusion... who started it? We don't care, we just want to live in peace. And yes it is a chess game, and you and I are pawns.

[SammyBlue]

35. "Arabs should stop the killing of defenseless Jewish civilians."

Oops, I made the mistake of asking the arabs and the world to accept the fact that they view Jewish blood as cheap.

[bigtree]

42. I think that Egypt agrees. Btw, Mubarak didn't mention 'Arabs'

Egypt has come a long way in their relationship with Israel. I don't see them breaking it down in the way you have.

No blood is 'cheap'.