do i have this right? two israeli soldiers were kidnapped and/or

[Sperk]

captured...i guess it depends on who's land they were on, and this started this major battle? Is that right or did I miss something?

[thepurpose]

1. No. You are absolutely wrong about that. It was one.

[Sperk]

2. thanks, now it all makes sense.

n/t

[readmoreoften]

4. What do you mean it was one? It was two.

It was one captured by Hamas. (I think it was Hamas.)

[thepurpose]

6. What I meant was at first it was one. Two more were capture later.

But the fighting had already started by then.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[thepurpose]

28. Well that's a bit harsh. I didn't know it was such a big offense to you

to have a conversation and maybe learn something you didn't know. But hey you have it all figured out don't you. I mean with your proof and all.

[cali]

37. I'm sorry. that was unduly harsh

but you made a false assertion in absolutist terms, and there's a lot of that going on here. I'm finding it slightly disturbing that people have no trouble making assertions that are not based in fact, and it's too volatile a topic to be doing that.

[thepurpose]

44. Apology gladly accepted I was being flippant in my first post. I

certainly didn't mean to offend you by that. And your are absolutely right it is a complicated and volatile topic, but I hope we are still fellow DUers.

[acmavm]

31. You're so right. We should all stand in awe of you and your intellect

and not touch our keyboards until you tell us what to think.

[thepurpose]

32. My intellect? What the hell are you talking about? Please point out to

me where I said anything that even touches on what you are talking about?

[kentuck]

33. Uh....I think he was talking to the other poster??

Maybe?

[thepurpose]

34. I hope your right because I am really confused now. I got flamed twice!!!

And I still don't know what the hell I said.

[uppityperson]

42. was responding to post#31, not you

[acmavm]

43. Check the thread I answered. It sure wasn't yours.

[thepurpose]

45. Sorry I get confused easily.,

[acmavm]

48. Okay.

[cali]

38. Well,

that hadn't crossed my mind, but now that you mention it....

[acmavm]

47. Don't hold your breath. I was being sarcastic. This whole situation has

been a manipulation by Israel so that they can make damn sure that they never have to deal honorably or humanely with the Palestinian people.

The Israeli government screams bloody murder over the kidnapping of one soldier and then they bomb a beach of civilians and a main electrical power source knowing full well that thousands will be affected. Two more soldiers get kidnapped (like kidnapping is something that's never been done by the Israelis) and they start bombing civilian neighborhoods. Oh yeah, I forgot, they drop 'leaflets' warning them that they're going to use their air power and American bombs on them as if that somehow relieves them of any guilt.

As far as the current regime in Israel is concerned the luckiest thing to have happened to them was when Sharon had his stroke. Israel came a little to close for comfort to maybe having to deal with the Palestinian people as if they were human beings. Ohlmert and Netanyahu were always against any kind of negotiated settlement. What is going on now is the only solution they understand.

[cali]

50. Your opining is

borderline hysterical, and is nothing but unsupported opinion. I don't support Israel's actions but the constant painting of Israel as the evilest regime imaginable, is ridiculous.

[uppityperson]

3. It was the excuse, not the reason. nt

[Javaman]

5. and I was flamed to no end for stating what you just did.

Also if you recall, Israel abducted two Palestinians prior to the soldiers but we will never hear about that ever again.

[Little Star]

7. No, two Lebanese were kidnapped first.

A Lebanese Doctor and his brother were kidnapped by Israelis. Then a Israeli soldier was kidnapped, then two more Israeli soldiers. With our media we will never be told the whole story but the BBC and Norm Chomsky told about the Lebanese Dr. and his brother.

[kentuck]

9. Thank you Little Star...

for giving a few more needed details.

[thepurpose]

13. Well that's the first I have heard about the Lebanese being kidnapped

first. Thanks for the info. Worthless damn cable tv news likes to keep me ignorant.

[Laotra]

19. Well sort of

He meant two Palestinians were kidnapped first, the Lebanese prisoners that Israel still holds were taken 20 years ago - but there's been also claims about more recent kidnappings from Lebanon, AFAIK unverified.

[Little Star]

23. Did I mix up my

Palestinians and my Lebanese? Now I'm confused. I will try to find links but would appreciate help cause I'm not to swift on linking back.

[Laotra]

35. I've read on DU

Chomsky saying that two palestinians, nother one a doctor, were kidnapped by Israel before some Hamas affiliated(/surrogate) groups captured an Israeli soldier. I have not checked the original so I don't know what is Chomsky's source.

Hezbollah wants to swap the two prisoners it took later against Lebanese prisones in Israel.

[5X]

17. I thought I had seen some reference to this earlier....

I would like to find the real news story about this.

I will search, but if you have a link, I would be very
appreciative.

Thanx.

[flpoljunkie]

24. Read this regarding the Hezbollah kidnappings...

Even Andrea Mitchell said today on Tweety's Sunday show that the Israelis had been looking for an excuse to go into Lebanon.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2006_07/009178.php

July 15, 2006

IRAN'S ROLE REVISITED YET AGAIN....Over at the Prospect, Laura Rozen interviews Mark Perry, co-director of the Conflicts Forum, a group that has set up frequent discussions with Hezbollah over the past three years. Here's what he has to say about Iran's involvement with the recent attacks on Israel:

We’ve been hearing the theory that the timing of Hezbollah’s Tuesday kidnapping of the two Israeli Defense Force soldiers was planned well in advance and with coordination from Tehran or Damascus. Can you speak to that?

Oy vey. There are a lot of people in Washington trying to walk that story back right now, because it’s not true.

Hezbollah and Israel stand along this border every day observing each other through binoculars and waiting for an opportunity to kill each other. They are at war. They have been for 25 years, no one ever declared a cease-fire between them....They stand on the border every day and just wait for an opportunity. And on Tuesday morning there were two Humvees full of Israeli soldiers, not under observation from the Israeli side, not under covering fire, sitting out there all alone. The Hezbollah militia commander just couldn’t believe it — so he went and got them.

I think that's about the end of this discussion for me — at least for the time being. It's evident that the most knowledgeable people around have wildly different opinions about this, but also that those same people have no specific evidence one way or the other. Iran and Syria are sponsors of Hezbollah and Hamas and are obviously closely aligned with their actions, but whether they actively approved of the recent kidnappings appears to be unknown. And, for now anyway, unknowable.i

—Kevin Drum 1:23 AM

[aquart]

27. Here's a link:

<http://badattitudes.com/MT/archives/003988.html>

'Gaza, itself, the latest phase, began on June 24. It was when Israel abducted two Gaza civilians, a doctor and his brother. We don’t know their names. You don’t know the names of victims. They were taken to Israel, presumably, and nobody knows their fate. The next day, something happened, which we do know about, a lot. Militants in Gaza, probably Islamic Jihad, abducted an Israeli soldier across the border. That’s Corporal Gilad Shalit. And that’s well known; first abduction is not. Then followed the escalation of Israeli attacks on Gaza, which I don’t have to repeat. It’s reported on adequately.'

Two GAZA civilians. Without names.

Without names.

Without names.

So how do they know one was a doctor and one was his brother? If no one knows who they are? Or WHY they were detained? Like, say, what they were doing at the time?

Perhaps someone has some more exact information? Perhaps an interview with the family?

And note that the motives are to "reduce pressure on the Palestinians by forcing Israel to fight on two fronts simultaneously.” Which is always such a fun, delightful thing for a tiny nation to do.

Since Chomsky seems to be crediting Israel and not the BushCo oil policies with the war in Iraq, maybe a grain of Dead Sea salt here?

Because it's so damn easy for you all to swallow any vicious statement about Israel without a second of questioning.

[Little Star]

30. Here is a link to what Norm Chomsky said

Israel Started It, Says Chomsky
http://badattitudes.com/MT/archives/003988.html

[kath]

36. BTW, it's NOAM Chomsky, not Norm.

[jpak]

8. Back in the day, they would assassinate an Archduke or something

Kidnapping a soldier???

They sure don't start World Wars like they used to....

<bones creaking>

:evilgrin:

[tanyev]

10. Soldiers are so much more expendable than "important" world leaders.

:(

[NoPasaran]

15. Or the French...

...sending Henry V a sack of tennis balls. (Imagine Paula Zahn explaining what THAT was all about!)

Today's world has no sense of style.

[jpak]

26. Now THAT's a casus belli

Far more subtle than "I fart in your general direction"...

:evilgrin:

[progressivebydesign]

11. I still haven't forgiven them for killing Rachel Corey with a bulldozer NT

[Little Star]

16. Could you please tell that story

I have never heard it or I simply don't recall hearing it.

[mmonk]

20. Rachel was a peace activist from the US

that was trying to get the IDF to stop from bulldozing Palestinian homes. She would stand in the way of a bulldozer in front of home with a bullhorn trying to get them to stop. One of them just decided to run her over and crush her.

[blonndee]

22. Here are a couple of links on Rachel

if the poster wants to see some pictures and read testimony. Very tragic and what a loss.

http://www.rachelcorrie.org/

http://electronicintifada.net/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/7/1263

[mmonk]

29. Yep, pretty brutal and cold blooded. She easily could

have just been removed.

[Little Star]

41. Thanks Blonndee.

[Little Star]

40. Thanks for explaining. What a sad story.

[robinlynne]

12. well, I think the fact that they have been firing rockets daily into

Israel had a little bit to do with it too... the photos just weren't in the news.

[aquart]

14. How many should be kidnapped?

What's your figure?

If, say, an Israeli soldier goes missing every day, just shrug? At what point would YOU go, "Oh, dear."

Or is it that it's okay if anything or everything bad happens to the Israelis because they've been so mean and cruel to the poor, suffering Palestinians?

I heard that the Palestinians are having an internal struggle for power. Would the power go to the group that brought Israel to its knees? I mean, do they have ANY motive here? Or are they just poor innocent sheep who never lifted a finger against anyone?

[uppityperson]

21. Is it ok to ask a question to clarify something?

or will you flame me too?

[wakeme2008]

25. Pisssst they also could have gone AWOL

:shrug:

[Iktomiwicasa]

39. And Israel is gonna knock the crap...

...out of the Islamo-facists. Good. About freaking time.

[LittleClarkie]

46. Well, I think there was other stuff priming the pump

Like Hezzbolah shooting rocks from the edge of Lebanon into Israel. But the soldier thing does seem to have been the catalyst.

A Jewish co-worker who's fairly progressive had sympathies for what's going with his brothers, saying that they never leave a soldier behind. It's a big deal to them when one is captured. And if they die, it's part of their religion to be buried right away that day. Apparently there are many morticians employed in Jewish hospitals.

I dunno. I just feel bad for the citizenry on both sides that outside forces and their own governments can't work and play well with others. On both sides, they are caught in the middle. Blowing up the transportation and communication network in Lebanon fucks the innocent citizenry no end. Neither side seems to give a flying fuck about the other. And I've always felt that those in power in Israel generally don't see their own historical plight in the Palestinians, and that in the same position, they'd be acting much the same.

It's a lose lose situation.

I wish I knew more about the history. I don't. So I'll generally reserve judgement til I do. But it's sad, isn't it.

[retread]

49. Explained here:

http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/publish/article_663.shtml#Background