National Geographic Channel - Secrets of Revelation - NO RAPTURE!

[Ioo]

This is a great show, a real study of the bible and the Secrets of Revelation. Rapture not in the bible... almost over, on again at 1am EST (Tivo it)

Real history of the Rapture

John Nelson Darby, a 19th century Irish lawyer turned Anglican preacher, developed a method of biblical interpretation called dispensationalism in which he incorporated Ribera's futuristic views. Darby became "the father of the rapture doctrine." He was the first to develop a full-blown theology that incorporated the teaching that Jesus would return secretly (His "second" coming) to rapture His true followers, leaving the rest behind to be ruled by an evil antichrist for seven years, and then return again (His "third" coming) in a visible, glorious coming to destroy antichrist, save those who were converted during the seven-year tribulation, and establish His own kingdom.

Cyrus Scofield, a disciple of Darby's, later published a Bible with explanatory notes in which he incorporated Darby's views on the rapture. The Scofield Bible is still the most popular Bible sold today.

Thus the rapture theory made its way into the psyche and formal teaching of much of the Christian world.

Read that again, the rapture was "added on the 1800's, not when the bible was written

[tuvor]

1. And if anyone brings up Matthew 24...

37 "As the days of Noah were, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

38 For as in those days which were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ship,

39 and they didn't know until the flood came, and took them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and one will be left;

41 two women grinding at the mill, one will be taken and one will be left.

Looks to me like being "taken" in this context means "to die"--not to be "raptured" as so many seem to like to interpret.

[blonndee]

8. See, that's what I always thought,

back when I believed in this sort of thing. For some reason I thought if there WERE something like a rapture, it would probably be when people died. And that's why "no one knows the hour."

[Nevernose]

2. As a former Southern Babtist, I was all set to argue w/ you

Then I looked up the wiki entry for "rapture."

America is responsible for many of the best things and ideas in the history of mankind. But no one can take a good idea and screw it up more than an American. *sigh*

I'm sooo glad I found the Unitarian Church...

Many Christians who do not agree that there will be a pre-tribulation Rapture of the Church point out that it is a relatively new doctrine, first popularized in the 1800s and elaborated on subsequently. There are whole denominations holding this view, such as the Roman Catholic Church and all the Orthodox Churches.

Many do not accept the pre-Tribulation rapture interpretation because they recognize that it is not clearly expressed in the Bible, but instead relies on extrapolations and inferences made from unconnected verses. Many further believe that if anything this significant were intended to be a major part of Christian teaching, then surely Christ would have made a plain reference to it in his own sermons as recorded in the Gospel, and not buried such a major prophecy in a few verses of the Apostle Paul.

...

Most Roman Catholics and many Protestants do not accept the concept of a pre-Tribulation rapture in which some are "taken up into Heaven" before the end of the world, because as mentioned, it is claimed that this idea did not exist in the teachings of any Christians until the 1800s, so it cannot be said to belong to Apostolic Tradition. Instead, most Catholics and many Protestants interpret 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 literally, and assert that the rapture will immediately follow the general resurrection on Judgment Day, when the living and the newly-resurrected-dead will rise up to meet Christ as he descends from heaven to judge the world (known as the Parousia). This is analogous to the common custom in which the people would go outside the gates of a kingdom to meet their returning king. Catholics and post-tribulation protestants consider the rapture to be merely a minor detail in the Biblical description of the Second Coming of Christ.

[NYC]

3. The puritans believed in something like the rapture.

I recently read "Day of Doom," a poem by Michael Wigglesworth, a puritan. It was a very popular poem at the time. (My best guess is 1700s, but may have been 1600s.)

http://www.puritansermons.com/poetry/wiggindx.htm

The book I was reading was The American Puritans: Their Prose and Poetry.

Edit:

After reading post #2, it seems that I am talking about Judgement Day. I hadn't known there was a difference between the two.

[Drum]

7. Maybe we've missed the 2nd coming...

This sure feels like 7 years under evil antichrists!

[NYC]

12. I would believe that part.

7 years too long.

[journalist3072]

4. So are they denying the rapture will happen? Figures.

The word "rapture" does not appear in the bible. However, it does say that we will be "caught up" in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall we be with him forever.

[Semblance]

5. Nothing about the future is in the Bible

Not just the rapture, but any "predictions" in the bible are worthless.

[MoseyWalker]

9. The "future"

had to do with treatment by the Romans.

2000 friggin years later, we're still dealing with this shit.

[Drum]

14. Amen!

[MoseyWalker]

6. Crap. I thought

144 thousand people would be taken up and given eternal pats on the back.

does anyone want some reason not to be a fundamentalist? I can provide, but don't want to be pushy.

[journalist3072]

10. Can we please stop that 144,000 crap?

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that only 144,000 people will make it to heaven.

Here's what it says:

John had seen the events of the sixth seal, that reveals the day of the Lord, and Jesus’ second coming, and multitudes hiding from the wrath which is to take place. He then saw four angels holding the winds of the earth so that the winds would not blow on the earth, or see or any tree. And he saw an angel who had the seal of God ascending from the east cry out to the four angels do not hurt the earth, the sea or the trees until the servants of God were sealed on their foreheads. In other words, wrath did not start until the all the servants were sealed. This is a contrary to the belief that the period of God’s grace ends when Jesus appears in the sky. There are two groups who are sealed: The 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel; and the large multitude from all the nations.

And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.



Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand.

Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand.

Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand.

Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand.

Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand.

Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand.

Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand.

Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand.

Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.



Revelation 7:4-8


The 144,000 are the sealed bond servants of God who came from the tribes of Israel. And there are12,000 from each tribe. Contrary to the pre-trib belief, there isn’t anywhere in scripture that says these 144,000 are Jewish evangelist who proclaim the gospel to the rest of the word. In the context of this scripture, these are the Jewish remnant who call upon the name of the Lord. The prophet Joel wrote there will be a deliverance for the remnant:

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Joel 2:32

And Zechariah wrote that in that day a fountain will be opened to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and uncleanness:

In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

Zechariah13:1

And Zechariah wrote in that day that a third of those will be refined through fire:

And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Zechariah 13:8-9

And after the refinement, they shall call upon the Lord’s name and then Jesus will hear them. And then Jesus will call them "My people" and the people will say "the Lord is my God." It is after the remnant is sealed God’s wrath will commence.

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Revelation 7: 9-10


After John saw the 144,000, he saw a great multitude which was innumerable. They included all kinds of peoples and languages of all nations and they stood before the throne and before Jesus. They were clothed in white robes, like their martyred brethren who were under the alter of God at the fifth seal.

And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

Revelation 7:11-12

[blonndee]

15. Correct me if I'm wrong

but isn't the 144,000 meant to symbolically represent ALL of the Jewish people? I thought that the number 12 was meant to represent something like a complete group. So the 12 tribes would mean all of the Jewish people, and then the 12,000 from each would seem to further compound the "promise" of being sealed forever as God's people--the "thousand" being employed in order to be emphatic, perhaps?

Seems like I remember something like this from one of my religious studies classes.

[journalist3072]

18. The 144,000 are the sealed servants from the 12 tribes of Israel

But what people forget is the scripture right after that talks about the inumerable---the inumerable people from all nations, etc.

[zeemike]

19. The Jews(Judah) are one of the 12 tribes

So only 12,000 are Jews

[insane_cratic_gal]

11. Maybe Not but I wouldn't mind JC

Returning to destroy the antichrist





It's a good fantasy

[zeemike]

16. Well if it is any comfort to you

It does say in Revelations that "he will destroy those that destroy the earth"
I think Bush could qualify for that one.
BTW that is a great picture.

[zeemike]

13. It is so clearly a false teaching it makes you wonder

Just how so many are taken in by it.
But then I would bet that most of them have never actually read the bible, and know little about what Jesus actually preached.

[journalist3072]

17. The fact that the rapture will happen is not false teaching

However, I do believe there is some false teaching about the rapture that is happening out there.

For example, I believe that the Left Behind series is doing a great disservice. I believe the Left Behind series is false teaching, because it leads people to believe that the rapture is going to be some secret event; that all of a sudden one day, the Lord is going to secretly come back for all the Christians, and everyone is going to be wondering were people went.

And that is not what scripture tells us is going to happen at all.

But it's not false teaching to say that the rapture will happen.

[zeemike]

20. I respectfully disagree

For many reasons that I find in the bible. But the strongest one is from Jesus himself in Mathew 24

29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So the elect are gathered AFTER the tribulations not before

[journalist3072]

21. Oh, I agree with you there....

And actually, that's what I was trying to get at.

Even in the churches, there are various schools of thought on WHEN the rapture will happen.

Some Christians believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, some believe in a mid-tribulation rapture, and others in a post-tribulation rapture.

And I believe in a post-tribulation rapture.

I believe the scripture teaches us that the church of today WILL go through the tribulation, but that we will be raptured up just before the commencement of God's wrath.

I also believe this scripture supports a post-tribulation rapture:

"And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

Revelation 7:1-4

[RagAss]

22. I'm confused....which one is Rudolph again?.. the red nose ?

[Camp_Democracy]

23. I KNEW it!!!

Thanks for posting.

[mmonk]

24. Darn! Will that affect sales of books, video games, and such

to the religiously insane?

[Rageneau]

25. The Rapture concept comes from a misreading of I Thessalonians 4

...which Paul corrected as soon as he heard of it, by writing in 2 Thessalonians 2 that it was a misconception that the 'elect' would rocket off the planet before Antichrist comes. Instead, Paul makes it clear that the Antichrist has to come before Christ comes back -- hence, no escaping the Tribulation via Rapture.

You'd think Bible-reading Christians would know this by now.

But most of those people vote Republican, so they tend to believe what they WANT to be true, rather than investigate to find out what really IS true.

[Disturbed]

26. The guy that wrote the Revalations ate

some magic mushrooms then wrote this fantasy.

[Camp_Democracy]

27. The Rapture is a lie!!!!!

Spread the word. Looks like the evil bastards aren't going to just get away, they will have to face justice here on earth.

And I never did understand why these fools thought they'd be raptured up anyhow...when they were the ones causing Armageddon.