How is Israel any better than Hezbollah?

[TechBear_Seattle]

Two-year-old Karib Kubaisi, wounded during an Israeli missile attack at his family house in the village of Zebdine, Lebanon, rests at a hospital bed in the nearby market town of Nabatiyeh. Kubaisi has various shrapnel wounds and is suffering from shock, according to doctors. Sunday brought the fiercest attacks since the conflict erupted Wednesday. (AP Photo/Lefteris Pitarakis)
(July 16, 2006)

I am not seeking a discussion on Israel's motives or rationale; I am seeking a discussion on Israel's methods. Specifically, discussion on the difference between a terrorist organization that uses bombs and other terror means to indiscriminately kill and injure innocents, and a country that uses bombs and other terror means to indiscriminately kill and injure innocents. PLEASE DO NOT TURN THIS IN TO A FLAMEFEST! This is a serious question, and I am curious to know the thoughts of others.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

1. One method of murder is "legal" the other isn't.

Just ask the perpetrators. Don't ask the (surviving) victims.

[otokogi]

2. might & U.S. backing make right

every time

[malaise]

8. Looks that way

Good grief look at that toddler -:cry: :cry: :cry:

[Puglover]

117. THANK YOU!

How very true. The ONLY difference between the two is who has more money.

[leftchick]

3. they are not any different

they claim the moral high ground as they slaughter innocents, just like the US and just like any so called terrorist groups. It al sucks and I wish it would stop. Thank you for the photo.



Women and children of the Ismaili family who fled the southern Lebanese village of Tyre, arrive in the port city of Sidon Lebanon, Monday July 17, 2006. Israel traded fierce barrages for a sixth day Monday, as the latest eruption of warfare in the Middle East showed no sign of easing, with the death toll on both sides rising to more than 200 at least 180 in Lebanon and 24 in Israel. (AP Photo/Mohammed Zaatari)

[Minnesota Libra]

4. Some may or may not agree with me but..........

.....Israel is doing what they feel needs to be done to get their soldiers back ALIVE and WELL. I would like to think that if one of my loved ones was kidnapped someone would pull out all the stops to get him/her back.

[itzamirakul]

12. So would you agree that the other side has the same rights?

There are many thousand prisoners being held. Do the arabs and palestinians have the right to go after them without pulling out stops?

I would like to think that if one of my loved ones was kidnapped that they would be well-treated and kept alive and that the opposition knew that I would treat their loved ones in the same way.

Edit: Line deleted

[Minnesota Libra]

34. My whole point is...............

.....both sides have a right to protect their citizenry and to keep it fair on both sides is where the UN comes in.

Keep in mind that the UN is the one who created Israel in the first place.

I don't have all the answers but when there is ONE country (Israel) AGAINST a number of other countries (Arab/Muslim) it just doesn't seem like a fair fight.

[itzamirakul]

52. I am trying to keep an fair perspective of the conflict and not judge

either side.

According to what you said:

So if one country is alone(Israel) and surrounded by other countries (Arab/Muslim) and that one country has an enormous cache of WMDs, including nuclear weapons, while the number of other countries did not have such weapons, why would I think that the ONE country was not in a fair fight? I would think that the ONE country had the advantage.

[Minnesota Libra]

54. Excuse???? The surrounding countries.........

....indeed have weapons - good deadly weapons. Hezbelloh is presently using weapons (missiles) given to them by Iran. The surrounding countries ARE NOT UNARMED.

[itzamirakul]

72. OK...Hezbollah is not a country...It is composed of rebels, right?

First you speak of countries which you identify as generic Arab/Muslim. Then you bring in Hezbollah. Why?

I don't think any of the countries(Arab/Muslim) have weapons that compare with the weapons that Israel has, including tanks and airplanes and protective clothing.

I do not want to take sides in this problem but I do want to question what seems apparent to me, rather than parroting some spin that is foisted onto me through the msm.

I don't think anyone should say that they want to see Israel "wiped......"

I don't think that Israel should say that they want to "destroy...and change regimes."

What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

I don't have a vested interest in seeing one country win over another, in this conflict. I want to see a fair and reasonable peace.

I don't believe that anyone in the disputed countries, Iraq, Lebanon, Iran or Syria has any designs on me or my life. I don't think they are out to attack me. So what reason do I have to just take sides against them, willy-nilly?

I don't think the United States has any place in this battle. I think we should stay out of it.
Because we should not send troops to one of the countrys but not to the other, on the pretext of taking care of the 25,000 Americans living in Lebanon.

BTW: why do we have so many foreigners living in Lebanon and not in Israel? That is not fair, either.

[Minnesota Libra]

73. I brought Hezbollah into the mix because............

....in watching the news Arabs/Muslims were interviewed and to the question of "what do you think of Hezbollah?", the Arabs being interviewed claimed "we support Hezbollah completely".

Yes, I know those being interviewed were a tiny segment of the Arab/Muslim population.

Oh, and as for Hezbollah being "composed of rebels", you're right. They are, however, operating within the borders of Lebanon and so like it or not Lebanon is responsible for what the rebels do. If Lebanon can't control them then maybe they should have asked for UN help before this.

No I do not think Israel is completely blameless in all this. I think they sometimes use the slightest provocation to strike at Arabs/Muslims. On the other hand if a country/race of people/religion/pick a term professed their desire to wipe me and mine off the face of the earth then I too might be inclined to strike at the slightest provocation to prevent being wiped out.

In other words, there is enough blame to go around and then some.

[eyl]

80. How can they be rebels

if they're sitting in the Lebenese government?

[Minnesota Libra]

83. You're right they are now in the government - that makes..............

.....Lebonon all the more responsible for what Hezbolloh does.

[itzamirakul]

87. Well, we have people sitting in the American government who hold

dual citizenship. Does that mean that America is responsible for what their "other country" does?

Now, see...it is here that things become confusing. Hamas was elected by the Palestinians, right?

Hezbollah is at the other end of the country and was never elected to anything, Right?

Also, I wonder if Lebanon has an army capable of stopping the rebel Hezbollah group? They sound too militant for just a local police action to stop them.

[eyl]

107. Are they sitting in the government

as representatives of their other country?

Hamas was elected by the Palestinians; Hizbullah was elected by the Lebenese.

[itzamirakul]

111. If a person has DUAL CITIZENSHIP he is at ALL TIMES

representing both countries. You can't turn citizenship on and off like a water faucet. Your citizenship goes with you wherever you go and AT ALL TIMES.

There is no other way of looking at it. Dual citizenship reflects dual loyalties.

[eyl]

115. There's a difference between

representing your country by force of being a citizen of it and representing it by being an official representative of it. Are a random resident of New York and a US Ambassador equally representatives of the US?

[itzamirakul]

116. An ambassador has been designated to represent his country

by living in a foreign country for a set period of time and supposedly trying to maintain friendly relations. An ambassador does not have to take an oath of loyalty to both countries. Being an ambassador or representative of a country has nothing to do with citizenship which is the topic we are discussing. I fail to see its relevance here.

A citizen, however, takes an oath of loyalty to a country.

Such as every American child is taught. i.e.:

I pledge alliegiance to the flag
Of the United States of America
And to the Republic for which it stands
One nation, under God
Indivisible
With liberty and justice for all.

I cannot see how anyone can take that oath of allegiance and then add another country's oath of allegiance to it as well. What happens when one day the values of those two countries are at odds with each other? What happens when the best interests of one country are not the best interests of the other country?

Frankly, I do not think that ANYONE who holds DUAL CITIZENSHIP with America AND ANY OTHER COUNTRY should be allowed to hold office in American government. IMO, Dual Citizenship equates with watered-down loyalty. Probably only 1-2% can be equally loyal to both countries. The rest will always favor one country over another. Therein lies OUR problem. How can we be SURE that those with Dual Citizenship will ALWAYS put the interests of the United States of America, FIRST? What do we have to prove that they will? Their word?

A citizen of a foreign country is not an ambassador of that country. He is a CITIZEN of that country and has taken an oath of loyalty TO that country. That MEANS something. It means protecting and loving and caring and defending that country. Now...to which of those two countries does the Dual Citizen hold MORE loyalty?

[eyl]

119. Possibly true

but we're straying from the topic.

To get back to it: The Hizbullah reps in the Lebenese government are not people who happen to be both members of the government and of Hizbullah. They are there specifically as Hizbullah's representatives.

[robinlynne]

98. why? because Hezbollah was rocketing ISrael, which is why this whole thing

started.
that's why.

[itzamirakul]

112. My point with the other poster was that at times he/she referred to

Lebanon as being responsible because it is a country. Then brought in Hezbollah, which I was pointing out was NOT a country.

Also, I understand that Hezbollah was bombing in retaliation for the death of a Palestinian family on a beach a few weeks ago, for which Israel apologized.

[Tesha]

69. Even when the one country has 100-200 nuclear weapons?

> ...when there is ONE country (Israel) AGAINST a number of other
> countries (Arab/Muslim) it just doesn't seem like a fair fight.

Even when the one country has 100-200 nuclear weapons? And American-
made F-16s to deliver them?

Doesn't that even things up just a bit?

Tesha

[Minnesota Libra]

74. Well, the question becomes............

....is Israel using or threatening to use those nuclear weapons?? I haven't heard such threats so far.

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kittenpants]

16. What I think is odd is the rage over two soldiers vs. civilian deaths...

I've always sympathized with Isreali civilians b/c attacks seemed so random & cruel, but the gov't is starting a war over two soldiers while they have dealt with lots of civilian deaths much more patiently... I guess to me that points to a more hawkish mindset somehow--like they're not doing this to protect their people but they want to demonstrate their military might.

I don't know if I'm expressing myself clearly & I certainly don't have the answer to this mess I realize.

[Minnesota Libra]

50. You're right, it is "a more hawkish mindset".....................

.....although when you have one country (Israel) almost constantly being attacked in one way or another by surrounding countries (Arab/Muslim) then maybe the results do have to get "more hawkish" to even the situation out.

I know I certainly don't have all the answers. Although, I do think it would be pure stupidity to take the word of "peace" from countries who have, more than once, sworn to destroy Israel one way or another, and have gone on to do try exactly that.

I was VERY ENCOURAGED when a couple of Arab countries condemned Hezbollah for kidnapping the Israeli soldiers. I think that could be used as a basis for returning to a somewhat peaceful status between all parties involved.

[robinlynne]

99. not over 2 soldiers. before the soldiers, hezbollah was bombing (rocketing

Israel. as are the palestinians in Gaza.
israel didn't just up and decide to bomb for no reason, although some people think so and even liken Israel to the US. in Iraq!

[The2ndWheel]

20. Loved ones being kidnapped?

They're grown soldiers taken hostage.

[winter999]

55. So that must make it alright. Please.

[The2ndWheel]

62. Did I say that?

All I said was that they weren't "kidnapped".

They may be loved ones, but they're also soldiers in one of the more militarily active locations on the planet.

[misanthrope]

67. No, they're not...

...Israel has never made bones about the fact that if any opposing groups kidnap Israeli soldiers, the Israeli government will place absolutely NO VALUE on said soldiers' lives in their efforts to punish via violence. In other words, "If you grab one of our guys and try to use their presence as a shield, don't think it will stop us from bombing the hell out of you and killing our own personnel." They view this policy as the one needed to prevent those type of kidnappings.

They don't care about rescue; they see the policy as preemptive.

[GeorgeGist]

89. How many of my loved ones would you be willing ...

to let them kill to get him/her back?

[Kagemusha]

5. It's what's more gently termed, collective punishment

Bombing all Lebanon to show Lebanon it needs to control Hezbollah. Of course the reaction of non-Shiite Lebanese is largely, "We'd um, like to, but..."

[Warpy]

6. Uh, because they have more money? Because they have uniforms?

This looks like a class thing to me, but then most conflicts tend to.

I'm not in a position to have to consider Israel my homeland of last resort, so I tend to look at them with a more jaundiced eye than those who do.

As always, this is a conflict among male hotheads and civilians are the big losers. I'm sure the Israelis have an equivalently pathetic picture of an injured Jewish child after the recent rocket attacks.

This isn't a question of who's more right. They're both wrong. People like that little boy will continue to pay the price for the stupid tactic of an eye for an eye.

[TechBear_Seattle]

18. "Eye for an eye" is supposed to be a maximum, not a suggestion

The purpose of the "eye for an eye" doctrine is to place a limit on retribution, not provide a sentencing guideline. It was intended to prevent the "one of us is worth 100 of you; you killed one of us so we will kill 100 of you" mentality which was a problem in the Middle East 2500 years ago, and continues to shape the region to this day.

[Warpy]

44. That's not how it's being interpreted

by those male hotheads I talked about. That's the problem.

They want the whole area eyeless, toothless and lifeless.

[bloom]

56. "Eye for an eye"

If Israel even went with that - that would have reduced this to them finding 2 Hezbolla people to kidnap -instead of killing 180+.

According to Chomsky - Israel already kidnapped 2 Palestinians and the Palestinians were "eye for eying" them.

It seems that the Israelis are going by the measure of 18 eyes for every 2.

There is quite an entitlement thing going on there.

Someone wondered why some of us were not more concerned with "Jewish blood" - but don't want us to be concerned with "Arab blood".


There is that whole group mentality dynamic. I figure that America includes many groups. That includes Jews, it also includes other Semites. It includes Muslims. It includes about any kind of group that anyone can think of. Being what America is.

Some people clearly think that Israel is entitled to favoritism - that Americans should not consider other people - like the Palestinians - to be equal.

People like Pipes and Horowitz would clearly like for Americans to favor Jews instead of Muslims. That's a big part of their propaganda.

It can be argued that the US policy does favor Israel with weapons and in other ways. It also seems that US policy causes more problems than anything.

I think it's comparable to the violence in Ireland. There is not a "side" to take - based on religion or heritage. If one side is being more aggressive, more problematic than the other - then it makes sense to call them on it.

I also think it makes sense to expect more out of the side that is holding most of the cards.

[Ravenseye]

7. They're not

They used to be, and one could argue that they still are better because of 'intentions', but those don't go very far.

Reprisals against civilians, whether it's rocket attacks on Haifa, or bombs dropping on suburbs of Beirut, are unforgiveable.

There are those that argue about "who started it" when that question truly has roots over a hundred years old and more. Who started it doesn't matter anymore. Otherwise it validates any number of horrific actions. Just because you were attacked first and are responding, doesn't mean you can use any means necessary including attacking civilians.

There are those who argue that Israel is hitting military targets and the civilians are just simply casualties of war. The problem with that, in my mind, is that Israel is doing large scale damage to civilian areas, knowingly. They aren't precision strikes. They are bombing civilian locations like the airports, in order to prevent people from escaping, yet killing plenty of civilians, and destroying enormous amounts of infrastructure.

Israel can't just sit back and let Hezbollah poke at them with a stick, shoot rockets at Haifa, and kidnap their soldiers, but it's a back and forth. Both sides have been picking and fighting at each other for so long that everything is a reprisal. If that's the case then a civilized country that doesn't wish to terrorize people, would find a different way to fight Hezbollah rather than bombing civilian areas in Beirut filled mostly with people who just want to live their lives.

So really I think while the Israelis come from a position which could grant them a much higher moral position, I think their tactics strip that away from them and bring them down to the level of terrorists themselves.

[TechBear_Seattle]

22. I guess the next question then would be...

How does indiscriminate attacks against Lebanon make Israel safer? As with similar US attacks against Afghan and Iraqi urban centers, won't this drive previously neutral parties to side with the terrorists for both protection and revenge?

[Ravenseye]

48. Well, I don't think it does

All they're doing is creating more people who want to fight them.

If you start a situation where you have 100 people on two different sides and 1 person on each side hates the other side and wishes to cause it harm, how do you diffuse the situation? What's happened here is that Man 1 on Side X attacks Side Y. He kills 1 from side Y and injures 5. Now you have 1 person on Side X that hates side Y and at least 5 people on Side Y that hate Side X. The Six people on Side Y attack Side X, killing 2 and injuring 10 in reprisal for the initial attack.

Now you have 98 people on Side X, 11 of which hate Side Y, and 99 people on Side Y 6 of which hate Side X.

The process repeats and repeats. People die. More and more hate.

violence begets violence.

The biggest lesson should be learned from people like Ghandi. Passive resistance WORKS. Why? It works because you influence the other side, without killing them and making them have excuses to hate you more.

so yeah you're right. How do these attacks make Israel safer? I don't see that they do. Won't this drive previously neutral parties to side with the terrorists for protection and revenge? I see that it will.

and the cycle of violence continues.

[bloom]

58. It was Israel

going into Lebanon in the early 80s which was the reason that Hezbolla formed to begin with.

So - the Israelis (and US supporters) might think that this time they will wipe any challengers off the map completely - but what might be more likely is that they would inflame people more. This war may be laying the groundwork for WWIV - (which may be fought with sticks and stones as Einstein said - but even still).

[Ravenseye]

68. I think that's a good way to look at it

Israel is going in there now to get rid of Hezbollah.

The last time they went in there it was to get rid of the Fatah - Revolutionary Council...and it spured the creation of Hezbollah which coalesced from different groups.

Even if they succeed in destroying Hezbollah another group will rise from the ashes.

[cali]

9. How is the US

any different from Al-Qaeda? How is Russia any different from radical groups in Chechnya?

Ultimately, this kind of question fails because you're making a comparison that doesn't work. It's fair to ask, how are Israel's tactics any different or better, but you simply can't compare a country with a group- terrorist or not.

Israel has citizens and cities and a court system and the Knesset and peace groups and right wing settlers and much more, in addition to their armed forces.

[TechBear_Seattle]

24. Please elaborate

How does Israel having citizens, cities, a court system, a legislative body and all that, differ from Lebanon having citizens, cities, a court system, a legislative body and all that? And how is any of that relevant with regards to Hezbollah?

[cali]

31. You didn't ask what the

difference between Israel and Lebanon was, you asked what the difference is between H'zbollah and Israel, ergo my answer.

[TechBear_Seattle]

40. Again: how is your point relevant?

Or do you mean to say that a country, solely because it is a country, may make use of the same tactics on a much wider scale that merit the condenmnation of a non-country using those tactics?

[cali]

64. Are you really having this

much trouble grasping what i wrote. I suggest you reread my first post; you can compare tactics but not entities. There's simply no way to make a side by side comparison. You're engaging in a mess of logical fallacies in addition to your use of propaganda and rhetoric. Of course I don't mean to suggest that a country's actions are excusable simply because they're a country. Again, compare the tactics, but don't attempt to compare Israel to H'zbollah. If you don't understand why such comparisons are inherently flawed, I certainly can't help you.

[Alameda]

91. how is Israel any better than Hezbollah?

Hezbollah is part of the Lebanese government, as is Likud part of the Israeli government. The policies of Israel has followed the dictates of the Likud party for quite a few years. Recently Sharon set up the Kadima party, but it is only a few months old now.

I suggest people read the Likud party platform....
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Politics/LikudPlat1977.html

When one looks at these maps, it is no wonder Israel's neighbors are nervous.

http://eretz-israel-borders.tripod.com/boundaries.html

"Q: What will the borders of Israel be once she is fully restored and the Abrahamic covenant is completely fulfilled?

A: In Genesis 15:18 God promised Abraham the whole land from the River of Egypt to the Euphrates. Again in Deut 11:24 the Israelites were to inherit all the land from the desert to Lebanon, from the Euphrates to the Western Sea."

http://www.amfi.org/mailbag/borders.htm

I think both are reacting inappropriately out of cultural trauma. From what I've read, it takes 10 generations to get over this. Unfortunately, the problems are only getting worse as more generations are traumatized and thus reacting.

If they could only learn to live together and in peaceful respect of each others right to exist.

[xchrom]

27. have you read up on the history of russia and chechnya?

just curious -- because the chechnians suffered horrifying actions under the soviets -- so i'm just wondering if you were aware of that?

the end result is that there are a lot of unwelcome russians in chechnya -- and the chechens unable to control their own destiny.

and many, many open wounds.

[LostinVA]

10. They aren't n/t

[Jim__]

11. There is no difference.

Murdering innocents is murdering innocents. The murder of children in northern Lebanon cannot be called collateral damage. Lebanon is not at war with Israel. Lebanon did not launch any attacks against Israel. The murder of children in northern Lebanon is a terror tactic, plain and simple.

[Che_Nuevara]

13. I would say this:

Retaliation is not right, but unprovoked violence is more wrong.

[The2ndWheel]

14. One is a state backed by the strongest state

the world has ever seen, the other is stateless, but backed by other states that aren't backed by the strongest state the world has ever seen.

Then you get into the question of who gave these states authority to do what they do. The states did, a long time ago, without any real consultation of "the people", who never have a say in the affairs of state to begin with.

[Benhurst]

51. The World's Only Superpower.

I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree. Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.

Psalm 36:35

[Ian David]

15. How are YOU any better?

Don't bother responding.

You're on my ignore list now.

[TechBear_Seattle]

30. Ignored for asking a question?

I am looking to understand the situation. I am looking to see how others are understanding the situation. I'm sorry that my efforts to make sense of what is happening have so grieviously offended you.

[midnight]

17. O my God.

That is all I can say when I see that beautiful baby-two years old. That should be all Bush, Blair and the rest of these war profiteers have to answer to. You are right to ask what the difference is when Terrorists VS a Country use bombs that indiscriminately kill and injure innocents. There is no difference!!!!!

[cali]

19. You're not getting

much in the way of thoughtful answers. People are so emotionally wrapped up in this that they're unable to apply the most basic of critical thinking skills.

[CrownPrinceBandar]

25. No doubt......

Its the I/P forum writ large.

[cali]

33. Ain't that the truth

and I hate to sound snarky, but all the banalities and sentimentalities really freak me out.

[otokogi]

37. ah, the voice of the 'fair-n-balanced'

lol

[itzamirakul]

82. It seems to me that the "banalities and sentimentalities" of which

you speak are often the heart-felt emotions of the people offering them. I know that I honestly care...about both sides. At this point, it's more like siding with one sibling against another when you don't want to see either of them hurt.

As time goes on, it may be necessary to side with one sibling against the other...but it never makes for a happy, whole family again. And basically, that is what we really are when it comes to the bottom line. We are one family of human beings living on one little blue marble that is spinning around in space. And thanks to the force of gravity, we are stuck to it and don't go flying off into the ether.

If more people had allowed themselves to give and receive such sentiments in 1930s Europe, perhaps there would not have been WWII and the horrendous cruelties therein.

Making fun of such feelings and expressions makes the one doing so appear unfeeling and uncaring and cold and detached...much the same as some of the most cruel perpetrators of the WW2 opressors made their victims feel. Just look at how unfeeling all of the "stereotypical enemies of America were made to appear in the movies of the period."

This coldness and detachment led to some of the most horrendous criminal acts ever perpetrated "by one man on another." Some of those acts were even practiced under the guise of science. Cruelties so horrible that they still make the viewer of such memories want to vomit, 60 years later.

I hope that I don't see one side in this fight begin that same kind of blank-minded, cold and detached torture, and ghettoization as was done in our not so distant past.

I think Americans, of whatever ethnic heritage, MUST begin to put America and American values FIRST. We must LIVE our values for it is only in this way that we can be the role models the world used to see us as being.

Edited to add: Democratic values, specifically.

[afrosia]

21. Over the top without a doubt. How about...

They treat them in the same way that you treat a child when it starts throwing a tantrum - just ignore it. Or at least pretend to. Covert ops are the best way to tackle terrorism. Don't even bother making a big deal about each terrorist act. By making each terrorist act out to be a massive event we/they are just playing right into their hairy little hands. Trust me on this - ignore the little fuckers and they will eventually get cocky and make mistakes. Then you pounce, give them a kicking and haul 'em up in court. One live terrorist is worth 1000 dead ones.

[eyl]

46. Tell me

what do you consider to be the point - number of casualties - at which you should stop ignoring them? Not to mention that covert ops aren't necessarily as easy as you make it sound.

[cali]

23. One more thing:

It's certainly a worthy questin, but you framed it as pure propaganda by using a picture of a grievously injured baby. It's better to avoid such tactics when posing a serious question. By posting the picture you've made the statement that anyone who disagrees with you is dead wrong. With a mind that made up, it's difficult to believe you're really curious about what others think who don't buy into your premise.

[TechBear_Seattle]

26. Would it have been any different

Had I asked the same question with regards to the United States and Iraq or Afghanistan, and included a picture of a badly injured Iraqi child or the interior of a jumbo jet filled with the flag draped coffins of US soldiers? Why?

Yes, the choice of photo was deliberate. I felt the need to show that the attacks were not some abstract, precision raid against known terrorists done in the name of law-and-order.

[cali]

41. Yes.

I've had this argument on more than one occasion. If you posted a picture of a child killed by US bombs in Iraq and then asked is the US any better than Al-Qaeda or whoever, I'd respond in precisely the same way. I'm not a fan of crude propaganda. Posting a picture of flag covered coffins relates to this how, exactly?

As for your posting the pictures to inform DUers, that's fine, it just doesn't have any place in a thread where you are purportedly asking a serious question and desiring thoughtful answers across a wide spectrum.

[winter999]

57. And did you ask yourself who put that child in harms way?

If they really cared (which they don't b/c a killed child automatically goes to heaven), they would have a) moved their loved ones to a safe (i.e. non-targeted) place or b) worked for peace.

[TechBear_Seattle]

63. So staying in ones own home in the face of an unannounced attack

Is putting one's children "in harms way?" If a foreign country were to launch a missile attack on Cary, North Carolina which severely injured children in your neighborhood, would the parents of those children be guilty of putting their children "in harms way?"

[itzamirakul]

84. Also, winter999, reports are coming out that the Israelis are indeed

dropping leaflets advising evacuation from projected bomb target cities and regions,to their credit, but that the roads, bridges, airport, etc are so badly damaged that the people cannot leave easily and when they do try, vanloads of women and children are often targeted and killed. This may be a case of the folks in the office and the folks in the field not being on the same timetable, but at least allow the civilians a fair chance to escape.

[otokogi]

35. facts on the ground

shouldn't be swept under the media rug.

the picture helps illustrate the point that Israel's tactics are just as brutal and terrifying as their enemies, and on a much larger scale.

[cali]

110. You have

a bit of a comprehension problem, huh?

[Bluerthanblue]

49. something about the faces of reality- cuts right through to the marrow-

Those who wage war don't look at faces- or see the pawns they place as living breathing human beings-
Were the picture an ugly middle aged person of any background, from either side- The reaction should still be the same-

Wars aren't about words- they are bleeding, dying, suffering people- who don't come back next season, or refresh with the video game, or stand up and wipe off the 'make-up'.

If we can't bear to SEE the 'fruit of war' and not be disturbed, infuriated, moved, and bothered- then we need to be far more prudent about beginning or encouraging ANY violent actions-

Wars are fought against the lives of OTHER HUMAN BEINGS- not some 'idealistic words' - or soul-less entity.

Is your mind open Cali???? honestly????? can you separate your own personal connection with this issue and look at it without prejudice???- I ask this not to dis, or anger you- I ask it in hopes that you will stop and really reflect on your ability to be without bias-

peace, to all -
blu

[cali]

66. I understand and appreciate your sincerity

I approach language and rhetoric with some academic experience and an analytical pov.

You seem to have the idea that my argument againts the OP was rooted in a dislike of having to see the fruits of war. That's simply not so. I can't say it's enjoyable to see the suffering inflicted on my fellow humans, but I do think one shouldn't shirk from looking at these photos. I've opened several threads that were forums for the photos of dead and injured Lebanese and I thank people for posting them. I was discussing context, and I've explained that in detail in an earlier thread.

Is my mind open? Yes. I've been one of those folks who have condemned both sides. I've written numerous posts in I/P. You can check them out yourself.

[JuniperLea]

28. They aren't any better

When you have two sides, each believing they are the victim, the only true this that or the other, you have two hard headed closed minded individuals or groups who aren't going to budge.

It's time to get out of the stone age and grow up as a civilization. Hurling bombs at one another is pure stupidity.

[BoneDaddy]

29. Spearhead lyrics apply

For years I have been a huge fan of Michael Franti and his band Spearhead. These powerful musicians say so much with their wonderful lyrics and excellent music. Here is one of my favorites:

Bomb The World (Armageddon Version)
I don't understand the reason why
You tellin' us all that we need to unify
Rally round the flag
And beat the drums of war
Sing the same old songs
Ya know we heard 'em all before

You tellin' me it's unpatriotic
But I call it what I see it
When I see it's idiotic
The tears of one mother
Are the same as any other
Drop food on the kids
While you're murderin' their fathers
But don't bother to show it on CNN
Brothers and sisters don't believe them
It's not a war against evil
It's really just revenge
Engaged by the poorest by the same rich men
Fight terrorists wherever they be found
But why you not bombing Tim McVeigh's hometown?
You can say what you want propaganda television
But all bombing is terrorism

(chorus)
We can chase down all our enemies
Bring them to their knees
We can bomb the world to pieces
But we can't bomb it into peace
Whoa we may even find a solution
To hunger and disease
We can bomb the world to pieces
But we can't bomb it into peace

911
Fire in the skies
Many people died
And no one even really knows why
They tellin' lies of division and fear
We yelled and cried
No one listened for years
But like, "who put us here?"
And who's responsible?
Well, there's no debatin'
Cause if they ask me I say
It's big corporations
World trade organisation
Tri-lateral action
International sanctions, Satan
Seems like it'll be an endless price tag
Of wars tremendous
And most disturbingly
The death toll is so horrendous
So I send this to those
Who say they defend us
Send us into harm's way
We should all make a remembrance that
This is bigger than terrorism
Blood is blood is blood and um
Love is true vision
Who will listen?
How many songs it takes for you to see
You can bomb the world to pieces
You can't bomb it into peace

(chorus)
Power to the peaceful
And I say, love to the people y'all
Power to the peaceful
And I say, love to the people y'all

[Swamp Rat]

32. poor baby n/t

:cry:

[emald]

36. I cry and beseech our spiritual Father

to end this evil called war. So many human beings suffering over religious nonsense. "My god is better than your god...It's my ground, not yours." Without the help of the almighty we will indeed extinguish the human race over trivial differences, after causing untold hurt.

[Bluerthanblue]

38. those tired old phrases..." right to defend herself"... "you have

to remember,'these people' want to wipe Israel off the face of the earth"... "we are not 'targeting' civillians".... "collateral damage".... etc.

Fall flat on their empty asses when the reality of this issue is looked at rationally-

There IS no difference between state sponsored and funded terrorism, and terrorism committed by a group of citizens within a country- One 'supposedly' has the 'will of the people' to guide them, but as we have seen here in the US- the will of the people doesn't stop the state from waging terrible wars- and causing horrible damage to the least of these-

Israels methods are indefensible in my own personal belief- Just as America's are- Those who hold the larger balance of power and weaponry are also given the larger burden of knowing how to RESTRAIN themselves- Something neither one has learned to do- Getting your way by force, and destruction will NEVER NEVER bring any kind of true or lasting peace-

And so sadly, it is always the people least able to run, with no where to seek refuge, who suffer first and most-


When will we ever learn? WHEN????-

peace-
blu

[Scribe]

39. I doubt your premise and there is a point by von Clausewitz

The challenge to your premise is based on your assumption that Israel is using "bombs and other terror means to indiscriminately kill and injure innocents." I think Israel is more likely aiming at specific military targets as opposed to aiming indiscriminately.

The other point rests on von Clausewitz's famous observation that 'war is diplomacy by another means'. As a Nation, Israel has the right to conduct diplomacy. Hezbollah does not. That is a very simplistic explanation of an inherent difference between the sides in this conflict.

[otokogi]

42. states use terror on a far more terrible scale

is the only difference, hommie

[Scribe]

61. It is not a one dimensional issue. If you see it as that simple then

there is nothing to discuss. However, you are missing factors that may play a role in an eventual settlement. The difference between Israel's nationhood and Hizbollah's lack of sovereignty is not something to be over-looked. IMO

[itzamirakul]

90. Now this begins to sound like one of those "round and round and nobody

wins arguments."

Israel is a "nation", a country, a sovereign state. Hezbollah is a loosly woven group of people who no one has identified yet, so we don't even know what country most of them are from. They are a fringe group, a leftist element, a rebel group.

So upthread, there are times when Hezbollah is mentioned as though they are a state or nation to be fought. Yet, here the poster says they lack sovereignty. So how can Lebanon be held responsible?

Hezbollah is considered an entity when it comes time to blame someone for the bombings, but has no standing when it comes to negotiations.

It becomes one of those situations where the blamed party is damned if they do and damned if they don't.

This twisting around of "the enemy" and making them fit every mold as needed is transparent. On both sides.

I thought Hamas was elected the primary government of the Palestinians. I didn't hear anything about Hezbollah being elected to anything. I don't think it is possible to try to mesh the two rebel groups together. They seem to be two separate groups.

[Scribe]

94. Well then you've missed a critical factor. Hezbollah won 23 seats

in the Lebanese legislature in 2005. That's up from 8 before. So they are part of the government of Lebanon.

[itzamirakul]

113. Yes, I see that you are right and I was wrong...

I did some reading after I had posted the message to which you refer and I most definitely stand corrected on the point that Hezbollah was "not" elected (according to my post).

Perhaps this is the kind of thing that makes communicating about the ME and Israel situation so important, if for nothing else than clearing up misconceptions and erroneous thinking. I try to keep an open mind even while I ask questions. I refuse to simply "swallow" whatever information that the msm tries to feed the public. There are two sides to every story.

[Alameda]

101. How is Israel any better than Hezbollah?

FYI

<<Hezbollah is considered a terrorist organization by Israel<10>,the United States<11> the United Kingdom<12> and Canada<13> . The European Union does not list Hezbollah as a "terrorist organization", but does list Imad Mugniyah,<14>,Hezbollah's senior Intelligence officer as a terrorist. The EU also supports measures aimed at ending Hezbollah's "terrorist activities".<15>.

The civilian wing participates in the Parliament of Lebanon, taking 18% of the chairs (23 out of 128) and the bloc it forms with others, the "Resistance and Development Bloc", a little less than 30% (see Lebanese general election, 2005). It is a minority partner in the current Cabinet.

The civilian wing also runs hospitals, news services, and educational facilities. Its Reconstruction Campaign (Jihad al-Bina) is responsible for numerous economic and infrastructural development projects in Lebanon.<16>>>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah

[Scribe]

118. Better or worse? I can't make that kind of judgement. Never could.

[Alameda]

126. Better or worse?

I'm not saying Hamas or Hezbullah are better or worse.....they have serious issues as well....

Traditionally neither Hamas or Hezbullah have recognized the right of Israel to exist. In fact their goal seems to be the establishment of an "Islamic" khalifat based on their interpretation of what that means.

I doubt if many here would not like a "Christian Fundamentalist" regime here in the US, or would support an "Islamic" one someplace else?

Please read the charter of Hamas...

http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.h...

Hezbullah

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah

What is needed is serious dialogue and clear heads.

[cali]

45. quoting von Clausewitz in

an emotional thread that's really simply an opportunity for DUers to voice their outrage? Tut, tut.

[Xenotime]

43. They are no different...

Everybody over there just needs to calm down.

[LWolf]

47. They are not any better.

Be careful when you ask yourself just why the biggest bullies on the planet support Israel out of all the conflict-driven residents of the middle east. It seems that we've been religiously driven all along, without GWBs help.

[Solo_in_MD]

53. Israel is not intentionally targeting civilian, Hezbollah and Hamas are

There is no evidence that the IAF it targeting civilians intentionally. There is evidence that they are trying to avoid them by leafleting prior to targeting rocket launching site. Considering the amount of ordinance that has been employed, the casualties are markedly light

Hezbollah and Hamas on the other hand are not target military facilities. Rockets are an area weapon, and can not be aimed. They are intentionally causing indiscriminate civilian casualties. One of the two missiles that they have confirmed as launching sank and Egyptian freighter.

That does not mean that the civilian casualties are acceptable, but there is a clear difference in intent

[KurtNYC]

59. I agree - I like the analogy of 2 houses

side by side. House A kidnaps people from house B, then A fires into B indiscriminately with a shotgun, not even knowing what they will hit. House B meanwhile has a sniper who is doing his best to shoot only at the source of incoming fire and warning others to get clear.

[akushuki]

70. I concur.

I like that word. Concur.

[lostnfound]

77. Ironic, though, that the presumed initiator was an attack against soldiers

Presumably, the initial action which provoked Israel was the killing of 3 soldiers and kidnapping of 2 soldiers -- not civilians.

Was it obvious to the Lebanese that the kidnapping would lead to all-out war which would include the death and maiming of civilians on both sides? Was the Lebanese government was capable of stopping the kidnapping?

Was it obvious to Israel that the missile attack at Beirut airport would lead to all-out war which would include the death and maiming of civilians on both sides? Was the Israeli government was capable of stopping the missile attack?

If you bomb a house where you believe that there is 1 militant target and 7 children sleeping, is that ethically different than killing 3 soldiers and kidnapping 2 more?

I don't know the answers, just asking. It's why I'm a pacifist.

[eyl]

81. That's not completely accurate

the attack in which the soldiers were kileld and kidnapped included a rocket barrage against various communities, in which 5 Israeli civilians were injured.

[lostnfound]

88. I'm sorry for the inaccuracy; thanks for correcting it.

There's always more to the story, isn't there.
Thanks, sincerely, for pointing it out.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

108. While I see your point, I don't entirely buy it.

I don't think there's much moral difference between taking an action that is intended to kill civilians, and taking an action that you know will kill civilians as a bye-produce of achieving its intended goal.

Also to put into the scales is that while I don't know of any instances of Israel government policy being to intentionally kill specific civilians, it is certainly doing a great deal to deliberately make their lives as unpleasant as possible - cutting of water and power, destroying homes and orchards, restricting travel and such like - and I think it probable although not proved that taking actions which it knows will lead to civilian deaths is a part of that strategy to try and cow the Palestinians.

It's also worth noting that, accidentally or otherwise, Israel kills Palestinians at between two and three times the rate that it's enemies kill Israelis.

But yes, I do agree that the taking of actions with no other purpose than to kill civilians is a difference.

[rman]

109. Right, Israel is accidentally killing civilians, lots of 'm

I suppose that makes it ok, even though it's the predictable consequence of Israel's actions.

[Igel]

60. One cannot divorce motives from methods when discussing

morality. Emotion, sure, but I like to think that humans can rise above emotions, and temper their emotions with intellect (and their intellect with emotion). But first one has to work through both, independently.

I've killed wildlife. My wife's cat has killed wildlife. My various roommates between stints at college killed wildlife. I killed them to watch the wildlife go splat. My wife's cat kills wildlife because the wildlife invaded the house, and then it usually ate it. My roommates killed wildlife to provide meat. But, gee, *animals were killed*. The horror of it all.

Hezbollah kills civilians. Israel kills civilians. Civilians are killed. Kids. The horror of it all. By all means, lets focus on the superficialities and emote.

[Che_Nuevara]

65. Well put (n/t)

[Posteritatis]

95. Amen (nt)

[Pachamama]

71. Umm, Israel is better because the US says so?

:shrug:

Israel does things that if any other country did, it would be reprimanded and condemned as being in violation of all international laws and inciting wars of aggression. Hezbollah is wrong for their actions, but two wrongs don't make a right. The Israelis don't get it: Their acts of aggression back in order to "stop things for good" have NEVER EVER WORKED and only have strengthened time and time again the will of the opposition and its what created Hezbollah in the 1st place! Israel has the right to exist and protect itself, but its not showing any form of diplomacy in my mind and its actions are just as wrong if not more so because they need to be holding themselves to a higher standard, not lowering themselves to becoming Terrorists themselves. Hezbollah is only going to be strengthened and emboldened by this action of Israel. And it will only mean more dead babies on both sides. Not to mention WWIII breaking out.

I am so disgusted with all parties involved. But Israel and the US should be acting like civilized democracies....not warring empires set on the destruction of others they don't want around, even if those others are acting the same way. There needs to be another solution than just bombing the shit out of a densely populated neigboring state in hopes that you wipe the bad guys out.

[virtualjimbo]

75. israel is doing same as we would

i want to share my analogy of the situation with you all...

if there was a terrorist Army in Canada or Mexico, that could fire rockets into America and either goverment in either country could not stop them. what would we do? i would agree that israel might come across as heavy handed in this. the problem is that lebanon can't control these terrorists... let israel do it.

[Binka]

123. Gee I Think I Heard Rush Say That

So much for your ananlogy...:sarcasm:

[ArmchairMeme]

76. Motive - profit and might makes right

It is clear that massive arms are a very lucrative business to be in.

Might makes right is continually demonstrated to fail time after time. Why does Israel think that is there is a person kidnapped in Gaza that bombing Gaza will result in the freedom of the hostage. It would appear that this has failed. This same strategy ws used toward Lebanon there are hostages bombing will free them. What is the possibility of the hostages being killed during the bombing.

The non-country groups are learning from each experience it appears. They are trying to negotiate for release of their prisoners.

The other and more important lesson is that Hezbollah now has rockets that can reach farther into Israel. How far will the next incident demonstrate the increased waring skills and improved rockets?

It is most sad commentary on modern man that killing and more killing and more killing does not deter killing.

[seabeyond]

78. you perfectly defined how we are to discuss to totally have to agree

with your statement. if this isnt an absurd post. could you limit our view, thought anymore to get the answer you are looking for?

[ecstatic]

85. I often wonder the same thing

Why is it that the US feels entitled to lob bombs whenever a country gets 'out of line,' yet, it is considered terrorism when groups representing Islamic nations declare war?

[stray cat]

86. manslaughter versus 1st degree murder

[itzamirakul]

93. Who makes that decision? And who gives them the authority to

do so?

[WinkyDink]

92. Well, first you'll have to link all those articles about Israelis blowing

up buses, cafes, schools, markets,...without provocation. Just because the "martyrs" are so ignorant to believe they will go to "Heaven" and be given 42 or 72 or howeverthefreakmany virgins (did anybody ask THEM?)---a sexist, vulgar view of Paradise apparently no one is supposed to remark upon.

I marvel how a 21st C. society can cope living next to a 6th C. one.

[lonestarnot]

96. War is the same no matter whose face you put on it. Poor kid.

[robinlynne]

97. I agree. I agree with Israel's motivations, but I do NOT agree with what I

see in this photograph!
Thank-you for separating the two.

[Endangered Specie]

100. Well, I wouldnt say "Israel", its the IDF doing the killing, specifically.

I find it a bit odd that the side that kills 10-20 times as many civilians as the other side claims that ONLY the other side is the one intentionally targeting civilians.

[PatriotMom]

102. Oh geeze that is so damn sad

How can anyone anywhere want this??
War must stop.
Peace Now
Mom

[DubyaSux]

103. A War Crime

This picture is evidence of why combatants hiding within non-combatants is a war crime. If Hezbolla had an ounce of courage, they would fight the Israelis without having to duck for cover under this kid's dining room table.

This conflict is not about kidnapped soldiers. It's about the dozens of failed terror attacks against Israel that get thwarted everyday along with the constant barrage of missiles on Jewish shopping malls. Israel withdrew from a few territories and the Palestinians began to use those areas to launch mnore rockets.

Showing this picture as an indictment of Israel is completely disengenuous. It's Hezbolla's fault. Hell, it's every Arab country in that are wishing that Hitler's work could be complete's fault.

[in_cog_ni_to]

104. Oh, I don't know. Maybe these kids could answer that question.

Jan 17, 2001 - Ofir Rahum, 16, of Ashkelon, traveled to Jerusalem to meet a young woman with whom he had conducted a relationship over the Internet. She then drove him toward Ramallah. At a prearranged location, another vehicle drove up and three Palestinian gunmen inside shot Rahum more than 15 times. One terrorist drove off with Rahum's body and dumped it, while the others fled in the second vehicle

Mar 26, 2001 - Shalhevet Pass, age 10 months, was killed by sniper fire at the entrance to the Avraham Avinu neighborhood in Hebron

Mar 28, 2001 - Eliran Rosenberg-Zayat, 15, of Givat Shmuel and Naftali Lanzkron, 13, of Petah Tikva were killed in a suicide bombing at the Mifgash Hashalom ("peace stop") gas station several hundred meters from an IDF roadblock near the entrance to Kalkilya, east of Kfar Saba. Four people were injured. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

May 9, 2001 - Yossi Ish-Ran, 14, and Kobi Mandell, 14, both of Tekoa, were found stoned to death in a cave about 200 meters from the small community south of Jerusalem where they lived.

June 1, 2001 - Marina Berkovizki, 17, Anya Kazachkov, 16, of Holon; Katherine Kastaniyada-Talkir, 15, of Ramat Gan; Aleksei Lupalu, 16, of the Ukraine; Mariana Medvedenko, 16, of Tel Aviv; Irina Nepomneschi, 16, of Bat Yam;Yulia Nelimov, 16, of Tel Aviv; Raisa Nimrovsky, 15, of Netanya; Liana Sakiyan, 16, of Tel Aviv; Maria Tagilchev, 14, of Netanya; and Irena Usdachi, 18, of Holon were killed when a suicide bomber blew himself outside a disco near Tel Aviv's Dolphinarium along the seafront promenade just before midnight on Friday. Yevgenia Dorfman, 15, of Bat Yam died subsequently from their injuries. 120 people were wounded in the bombing.

June 11, 2001 - Yehuda Shoham, aged 5 months, of Shilo, died of injuries incurred in a fatal stoning on June 5. He was critically injured by a rock thrown at the family's car near Shilo in Samaria.

July 26, 2001 - Ronen Landau, 17, of Givat Ze'ev, was shot and killed by Palestinian terrorists while returning home from Jerusalem with his father.

Aug 9, 2001 -Michal Raziel, 16, of Jerusalem; Malka Roth, 15, of Jerusalem Ra'aya Schijveschuurder, 14, of Neria; Avraham Yitzhak Schijveschuurder, 4, of Neria; Hemda Schijveschuurder, 2, of Neria; Tamara Shimashvili, 8, of Jerusalem; and Yocheved Shoshan, 10, of Jerusalem were killed and about 130 injured in a suicide bombing at the Sbarro pizzeria on the corner of King George Street and Jaffa Road in the center of Jerusalem. Hamas and the Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Aug 9, 2001 - Aliza Malka, 17, a boarding student at Kibbutz Merav, was killed by terrorists in a drive-by shooting at the entrance to the kibbutz in the Gilboa region

Nov 4, 2001 - Shoshana Ben Ishai, 16, of Betar Illit and Menashe (Meni) Regev, 14, of Jerusalem were killed when a Palestinian terrorist opened fire with a sub-machine gun shortly before 16:00 at a No. 25 Egged bus at the French Hill junction in northern Jerusalem. 45 people were injured in the attack.

Dec 1, 2001 - Assaf Avitan, 15, of Jerusalem, Ya'akov Danino, 17, of Jerusalem, Golan Turgeman, 15, of Jerusalem, Adam Weinstein, 14, of Givon Hahadasha when explosive devices were detonated by two suicide bombers close to 11:30 P.M. Saturday night on Ben Yehuda Street, the pedestrian mall in the center of Jerusalem.

Dec 12, 2001 - Yair Amar, 13, of Emmanuel, Avraham Nahman Nitzani, 17, of Betar Illit; were killed when three terrorists attacked a No. 189 Dan bus and several passenger cars with a roadside bomb, anti-tank grenades, and light arms fire near the entrance to Emmanuel in Samaria at 18:00 P.M. About 30 others were injured. Both Fatah and Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Feb 16, 2002 - Nehemia Amar, 15, and Keren Shatsky, 15, both of Ginot Shomron were killed and about 30 people were wounded, six seriously, when a suicide bomber blew himself up on Saturday night at a pizzeria in the shopping mall in Karnei Shomron in Samaria. Rachel Thaler, 16, of Ginot Shomron died of her wounds on February 27. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine claimed responsibility for the attack.

Mar 2, 2002 - Shiraz Nehmad, 7, Liran Nehmad, 3, of Rishon Lezion; Shaul Nehmad, 15, of Rishon Lezion; Lidor Ilan, 12, and his sister Oriah Ilan, 18 months, of Rishon Lezion; Ya'akov Avraham, 7 months, of Jerusalem. Avraham Eliahu Nehmad, 7, of Rishon Lezion, were killed and over 50 were injured, 4 critically, in a suicide bombing at 19:15 on Saturday evening near a yeshiva in the ultra-Orthodox Beit Yisrael neighborhood in the center of Jerusalem where people had gathered for a bar-mitzva celebration. The Fatah Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade took responsibility for the attack.

Mar 9, 2002 - Avia Malka, 9 months, of South Africa, when two Palestinians opened fire and threw grenades at cars and pedestrians in the coastal city of Netanya on Saturday close to the city's boardwalk and hotels.

Mar 12, 2002 Atara Livne, 15, of Kibbutz Hanita was killed when two terrorists opened fire from an ambush on Israeli vehicles.

Mar 29, 2002 - Rachel Levy, 17 killed when a female suicide bomber blew herself up in the Kiryat Yovel supermarket in Jerusalem.

Mar 31, 2002 -The brothers Ran Koren, 18, and Gal Koren , 15, of Haifa killed with a suicide bombing in Haifa, in the Matza restaurant of the gas station near the Grand Canyon shopping mall.

May 22, 2002 - Elmar Dezhabrielov, 16 a suicide bomber detonated himself in the Rothschild Street downtown pedestrian mall of Rishon Lezion.

May 28, 2002 - Netanel Riachi, 17, of Kochav Ya'akov; Gilad Stiglitz, 14, of Yakir; and Avraham Siton, 17, of Shilo - three yeshiva high school students - were killed when a Palestinian gunman infiltrated the community and opened fire on the teenagers playing basketball.

June 11, 2002 - Hadar Hershkowitz, 14, of Herzliya was killed and 15 others were wounded when a Palestinian suicide bomber set off a relatively small pipe bomb at a shwarma restaurant in Herzliya.

June 18, 2002 -Shani Avi-Zedek, 15, of Jerusalem, Galila Bugala, 11, of Jerusalem; in a suicide bombing at the Patt junction in Egged bus no. 32A.

June 19, 2002 - Shmuel Yerushalmi, 17, of Shilo , and Gal Eisenman, 5, of Ma'ale Adumim, when a suicide bomber blew himself up at a crowded bus stop and hitchhiking post at the French Hill intersection in northern Jerusalem.

June 20, 2002 Neria Shabo, 16, Zvika Shabo, 12, and Avishai Shabo, 5 were murdered when a terrorist entered their home in Itamar.

July 16, 2002 - Sarah Tiferet Shilon, 8 months, of Emmanuel; Yonatan Gamliel, 16, of Emmanuel. a terrorist attack on Dan bus No. 189 traveling from Bnei Brak to Emmanuel.

Oct 21, 2002 - Osnat Abramov, 16, of Holon; 14 people were killed and some 50 wounded when a car bomb containing about 100 kilograms of explosives was detonated next to a No. 841 Egged bus from Kiryat Shmona to Tel-Aviv, while traveling along Wadi Ara on Route No. 65 toward Hadera.

Nov 10, 2002 - Revital Ohayon, 34, and her two sons, Matan, 5, and Noam, were killed when a terrorist infiltrated the kibbut metzer.

Nov 21, 2002 - Ilan Perlman, 8, of Jerusalem; Yafit Ravivo, 14 of Jerusalem; Michael Sharshevsky, 16, and his mother ,of Jerusalem were killed and some 50 wounded by a suicide bomber on a No. 20 Egged bus on Mexico Street in the Kiryat Menahem neighborhood of Jerusalem.

Mar 5, 2003 - Smadar Firstater, 16, of Haifa; Kamar Abu Hamed, 12, of Daliat al-Carmel; Daniel Haroush, 16, of Safed; Tom Hershko, 15, of Haifa; Elizabeth Katzman, 17, of Haifa; Tal Kerman, 17, of Haifa , Abigail Litle, 14, of Haifa; Yuval Mendelevitch, 13, of Haifa; Asaf Zur (Zollinger), 17, of Haifa. were killed and 53 wounded in a suicide bombing of an Egged bus #37 on Moriah Blvd. in the Carmel section of Haifa, en route to Haifa University.

June 5, 2003 - Moran Menachem, 17 of Jerusalem, were found near Hadassah Ein Karem Hospital in Jerusalem, brutally beaten and stabbed to death

June 17, 2003 - Noam Leibowitz, 7, of Yemin Orde was killed and three members of her family wounded in a shooting attack near the Kibbutz Eyal

Aug 10, 2003 - Haviv Dadon, 16, of Shlomi, was struck in the chest and killed by shrapnel from an anti-aircraft shell fired by Hizbullah terrorists in Lebanon.

Aug 19, 2003 - Avraham Bar-Or, 12, of Jerusalem; Binyamin Bergman, 15, of Jerusalem; Elisheva Meshulami, 16, of Bnei Brak; Tehilla Nathanson, 3, of Zichron Ya'acov; Issachar Reinitz, 9, of Netanya; Shmuel Taubenfeld, 3 months, of New Square, New York (and his mother), Shmuel Zargari, 11 months, of Jerusalem were killed and over 130 wounded when a Palestinian suicide bomber detonated himself on a No. 2 Egged bus in Jerusalem's Shmuel Hanavi neighborhood.

Oct 4, 2003 - Tomer Almog, 9, and Assaf Staier, 11, all of Haifa (and their father, grandmother and grandfather), Liran Zer-aviv 4, and Noya Zer-Aviv , 1, all of Kibbutz Yagur.(and their parents) were killed, including four children, and 60 wounded in a suicide bombing carried out by a female terrorist from Jenin in the Maxim restaurant in Haifa.

http://www.take-a-pen.org/english/Articles/Art04102003.htm

Their pictures are at the link if you care to look at their faces. This only goes up to 2003. There's more.

[NuttyFluffers]

105. well, israel has challah bread...

but lebanon and palestine have pita bread... this is hard

in my supermarkets i can find both. i guess that makes safeway better than all of them? i'm confused now...

[Clarkie1]

106. The answer is very simple!

Hezbollah is a terrorist organization that wants conflict. Israel is a sovereign state that wants peace.

[TechBear_Seattle]

114. The question is methods, not rationale

Both sides claim that they want peace. At issue are the violent actions both sides are taking in an effort to achieve that peace. (Rather like fornicating in an effort to achieve virginity, but let's not go there, either.)

[Full Metal]

120. Tell ya how.... Hezbollah is antithetical to every liberal ideal.

women's rights? Nope, face scarves

gay rights? Marriage? Nope not even civil unions their stance is stoning.

civil rights et al? Not unless they're approved by the Koran.

separation of church and state? Do I even need to ask?

Equality? Maybe......... if you convert to Islam.

[foreigncorrespondent]

121. I believe...

...that anyone who needs to use a bomb to make a point are nothing but terrorists themselves. That goes for any terrorist group, or nation.

Have they never heard of two wrongs don't make a right?

[Full Metal]

122. Have you ever hear of?

Wake the fuck up and join the real world where people are inherently evil and they suck and they'll kill eachother in mass for no other reason but because they wear a different fucking style hat?

;)

Ya life sucks get a fucking helmet OK!

[foreigncorrespondent]

124. Have you ever heard of...

...correct spelling and manners? I thought not!

[Full Metal]

125. what are these man-ners that you speak of?

......................

[Clarkie1]

127. You have posed a question based on a premise which is false.

Israel does NOT "use bombs and other terror means to indiscriminately kill and injure innocents." They chose their targets, and yes, there is collateral damage.

Hezbollah is a terrorist organization that DOES "use bombs and other terror means to indiscriminitely kill and injure innocents." They don't give a damn who gets killed. They TARGET innocent civilians.

Those are the FACTS.

Another, just as significant difference is Israel wants to simply LIVE in peace, whereas Hezbollah has declared eternal and never-ending war against Israel until Israel and all it's people are DEAD.