POLL: Is the term "Zionist" offensive?

[Bonobo]

[LittleClarkie]

1. Not Jewish, but never did like words ending in "ist"

Somehow they always sound like a putdown. Leftist. Corporatist.

[bloom]

17. populist, artist, marxist....

I don't think ist has to be a put-down - but sometimes that is how is seems.

Esp. these days. For ex. Islamist - instead of Muslim - seems like the point is to make the group of people sound more like radicals.

[cantstandbush]

68. Don't these people refer to themselves by that name? nt

[derby378]

2. It can be, under the right circumstances

Just remember how hard the racist far-right try to turn the word "Jew" into a swear word or an insult.

[jonnyblitz]

10. the way some supporters of israel accuse some of us against

this latest military agression of being "pro-arab" or "pro-palestine"( as if it were a negative thing to care about these folks) to me, sounds pretty damn racist, like it is ok to hate palestinians just because they had the misfortune to be living on the land that Israel wanted to "acquire" from them.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

3. Depends on the context.

It's not intrinsically offensive, but people need to be aware that it can be misinterpreted, and that bastards will use it to level charges of anti-semitism against you.

Which is why I think it's best just not to use it, if it's avoidable.

[bunkerbuster1]

4. Not always, but that's the way to bet

But I'm a gentile, what do I know.

[shain from kane]

14. I'm not a big fan of that "gentile" word. After all, it is a word that

some other group chose to call me.

[On the Road]

19. The Term "Zionism"

was coined in 1890 by Nathan Birnbaum, who was part of the First Zionist Congress in 1897, and was made common by promoters of a Jewish homeland in the middle east. Critics of Israel regularly use the word as an epithet, but I don't see how it can be considered offensive.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Zionism/zionism.html

[shain from kane]

21. OK, but who's the bastard that classified me as a "gentile"? n/t

[On the Road]

31. LOL! §

[kskiska]

48. Would you prefer "goyim"?

Oy, vey.

[Lilith Velkor]

53. I like "shiksa"

Now that's offensive! :thumbsup:

[MadHound]

5. No, it isn't offensive, it is a historical political movement n/t

[Snivi Yllom]

6. in certain usages, it's like the N word

it should not be used

[nealmhughes]

7. Any word when used in a string of pejoratives can be construed as

offensive. It's the usage, not the meaning of the word. It applies to a movement that was finalized with Hertzl and others in the late 19th Century, and put into practice as response to the Hitlerzeit.

How is that the least bit offensive? It simply is.

Now, on the other hand, using it in a string such as "International Zionist war-mongering Jews" is offensive.

[Finder]

35. It is not. n/t

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

8. I used to hear the term "Arabist" - is that the opposite of Zionist?

I seem to recall James Baker being accused of being an Arabist (at least it was said in an accusatory tone) by others in his party when he was Secretary of State.

I confess that I'm not sure exactly what the term Zionist implies. It doesn't sound like a form of praise, although I may be wrong.

[aquart]

9. It is used as a code word, so, YES, it is offensive.

"We're not anti-Semitic. We don't hate Jews. We hate evil Zionists, the BAD Jews."

Yeah, I'm ever so impressed by that distinction.

Zionists, the people who believed that Israel should exist and worked their tails off to make it happen.

Anti-Zionists: the people who believe Israel should not exist. Which ever so nicely begs the question of what should then happen to the Israelis......I guess they become refugees and beg for sympathy for the next 60 or so years? Or they all just get their throats cut.

[treestar]

11. What about the displaced Palestinians?

Being a gentile/Christian, I just don't see why the Palestinians have no right to exist while Israel does. Why don't they have a right to fight back if they don't like it? There is a conflict here. So why is one side supposedly allowed to fight/defend itself and the other can't? How come as soon as one says something in consideration of the Palestinian's plight, one is bitterly called anti-semitic or anti-this or that?

And now we're not allowed to call supporters of Israel Zionists? Somehow I suspect there is nothing we could call them without being accused of anti-Semitism. "Supporters of Israel's current actions?" Is that OK? How is that anti-semitic?

[Bonobo]

13. If you don't support Israel's right to exist, what are you saying?

If a Zionist is someone that supports Israel's right to exist, than everyone else wants Israel to be destroyed or to cease to exist? Is that what you want?

[Igel]

37. They have a right to a state.

One could have been set up, but nobody set it up for them. They held out for more, and there was a war.

But while they're fighting for more, all they're doing is creating a fight: and during a fight, people die, things are destroyed, and if you lose ground, you may not be able to get it back. When you could be building, you're fighting or gearing up for a fight. And, in the case of the Israelis, they built; whether it was because their allies provided money, or because they thought it important to build, whatever. But another problem occurs: If all you've done is fight, and you say you want to fight more, why should the entity you're fighting trust you with real responsibility?

Iterate through that a few times to the present. It's as true now as it was in 1948. Or 1929.

BTW, one can be a supporter of Israel without being a Zionist.

[megatherium]

55. You can support Israel without being a Zionist?

I suppose you mean you can have a nation of Israel that is not by law/definition Jewish, or put another way, a nation that has (say) the same constitution that the USA has (no religion established/respected).

This suggestion usually is accompanied by the suggestion that the Right of Return be granted to Palestinian refugees. There were tens (hundreds?) of thousands of Palestinian refugees, when Israel was formed, and these were forced to remain in refugee camps in places like Lebanon or Gaza. But there are now millions of these (the refugees and their descendents).

If they were granted the right to return to Israel, demographics would quickly make Israel no longer majority Jewish. This of course is unacceptable to Jewish Israelis. The whole point of founding Israel was to always have a Jewish state to guarantee a permanent, defensible refuge for all Jews who may need it as well as have a Jewish homeland on the site of the ancient Jewish homeland. They will not give this up.

It is tremendously unfortunate that, although Israel was granted (some) of its territory by the UN, and thus Israel has a legal right to (some) of its land, the Arab (Palestinian) people there never consented to Jewish immigration or the Jewish state. Some formula must be found to compensate the refugees, in the context of a two-state solution. When the fanatics on both sides understand that their intransigence is not productive, I think peace will finally prevail. But demands to dismantle Israel as a Jewish state will not lead to peace, only prolongation of the endless, dismal low-grade war.

[High Plains]

20. Bullshit. If you can't see the distinction between anti-zionism and

anti-semitism, that is your problem. Painting everyone critical of the hyper-aggressive policies of Israel as an anti-semite seems to be what you are up to.

[MallRat]

12. "Zionist" is not offensive. What comes before and after it matters.

Being a Zionist simply means that you believe that Jews should have a homeland in Israel. In and of itself, it is not an offensive word.

Slap the word "conspiracy" on the end of it, and it's a very different story.

-MR

[cali]

15. Pretty good.

I'll add that if you're using it as a perjorative, it's probably better to steer clear of it.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

24. So if someone supports Israel's right to exist but is critical about

some of the ways Israel goes about existing, they should not use the term Zionist in an accusatory manner, right? To throw around the accusation of "Zionists this" and "Zionists that" means that you are opposed to Zionism or the concept of Israel as a Jewish State?

[cali]

32. I don't know what to tell you

but Zionist or Zionism have long been used by anti-semites; as in "The Elders of Zions", one of the more pernicious screeds ever penned. If people who are Jewish say its offensive, then I think people should respect that, and find another way of expressing their displeasure with Israeli policies or Israel itself.

[Cameron27]

39. It's always wise to allow the people who

are being defined by the word make the decision on it's offensiveness.

Cali, you wisely pointed out in another thread that words change their meanings or have their original meanings twisted, so people in good conscience might be using the word inappropriately.

I can't make a call on it because I'm not Jewish or Israeli, but personally I don't use it.

[cali]

41. Thanks. Kind of you to say

I'm quite sure that most DUers aren't anti-semitic. I'm also fairly sure that most don't understand the history of anti-semitism. I agree that we need to listen to those who are being defined by a word or a phrase.

[Zynx]

29. Depends how the word is used in a sentence

Technical, accurate use: "The Zionist movement supports a homeland for the Jewish people in Israel." Found in an encyclopedia.

Slur use: "The Zionist vampire dogs murder our brothers and sisters and slay our children for their blood." Found in anti-Israeli pamphlets in Egypt.

[MADem]

16. Originally, it was not an "offensive" term

People with agendas made it so.

Sorta like the word "liberal." Nothing wrong with it, but one might think so when it is said with a snarl and a sneer.

[mmonk]

18. Sounds offensive to me

in that those that hate Israel and Jews use it all the time, so that's what I usually equate the term with.

[warrens]

26. It's not hatred of Israel and Jews, it's dislike of far-right zionists

They're really, really crazy, you know. And vicious. They make our wingnuts look almost normal.

[Mass]

50. But the term is also largely used by people who hate Israel and Jews.

Many (even here) do not make the distinction between the two, sadly. BTW, Zionism was a left wing movement and there are still quite a few zionists that are from the left.

[robinlynne]

22. other: explaining

Zionist, when used in its real, historical, context is fine. When used to mean Jews, or Isrealis, or people who support Isreal's right to exist is extremely offensive and simply wrong. Personally I have never met a Zionist. But in the last few days here on DU I have been called one, indirectly. AS in there are "Zionists"meaning anyone who supports Israel as a country, and then there are the innocent people the "zionists" are attacking. Hell no. there are good and bad Jews, and catholics, and palestinians and lebanese, and democrats and republicans.

[Mass]

36. Thanks for saying what I wanted to say better.

[Emit]

38. How do you define the term, though

You say, "Zionist, when used in its real, historical, context is fine."

I'm confused as to the definition of Zionist or Zionism, because, as another poster pointed out it, I thought it referred to those who support a homeland for the Jewish people in the Land of Israel.

Forgive me for my ingnorance in trying to understand this, but is this not correct?

[shain from kane]

42. Not necessarily Israel. There were Zionists negotiating with the Nazis

to establish a Zionist state --- in Madagascar.



From the internets:

"In 1937 the anti-Semitic Polish government sent the Michael Lepecki expedition to Madagascar, accompanied by Jewish community representatives, to study the possibility of sending Poland's entire Jewish population there, in order to set up a Zionist state on the island.

The possibility of setting up a Zionist state on Madagascar (which was in fact first suggested by Herzl himself) also received consideration from the Nazi government. In 1938, Hitler agreed to send the President of the Reichsbank, Dr. Hjalmar Schacht, to London for discussions with Jewish representatives Lord Bearsted and a Mr. Rublee of New York. The plan failed only due to intransigence on the part of the British government."

[Emit]

54. !

! Wow.

[robinlynne]

43. no. it is not. I have never met a Zionist. I come from 4 generations of

working class and socialist jews. We are atheists. We support Israel. not every single thing the Israeli government does, bombing Beirut for example, but Israel. no Zionists. not even a religious Jew, but we support Israel.
Which does not mean I want to see Lebanese people killed.
But if someone were throwing rockets into my yard, I would react quite strongly. If I killed a child in my response that would be wrong. It would not make my MOTIVATION wrong.

Zionism, was a movement in the forties, may have started earlier, not up on my history. There are surely Zionists in ISrael. But there are many other kinds of people there as well. The only thing we all have in common is common culture, the kinds of food we eat for example. And that all of us had families killed in Europe. Personally I think the jewish religion is as bad as any other religion.

[Emit]

58. Now I'm really confused because

Where ever I look up the word, online, or in my dictionary here at home, the definition basically remains one who supports the state of Israel -- or some similar definitional form thereof.

What is so negative or derogatory about that word?

[SammyBlue]

23. In the context the term is used, It is used like the words

Heb, Kike and all those other colorful phrases Christians and non-Jews has used to belittle my people.

Zionist = neo term for Kike!

[dorkulon]

25. Not offensive; just descriptive

Zionism is a school of (primarily Jewish) thought, which many disagree with. I guess you could say I'm anti-Zionist, but I'm certainly no anti-Semite. At any rate, if we stopped using the term, we'd just have to come up with another to mean the same thing. It's not a slur, it's a way of thinking about Israeli affairs.

[chookie]

27. Zion

I know the standard answer regarding "Zionism" states that has its origins in Theodor Herzl's 1896 book Der Judenstaat, as a response to rising European anti-Semitism.

But doesn't the concept of "Zion" -- the notion of Jewish homeland, the Promised Land -- go back thousands of years? Much of the Bible deals with the travails of the Jews as they were enslaved and kicked about from place to place, and the longing to have a permanent home in the lands they originated in in southwestern Asia in the eastern Mediterranean.

According to the Israel Projects Middle East glossary, "Ancient hopes and attachments to Zion gave rise to Zionist longings and movements since antiquity, culminating in the modern national liberation movement of that name. The Zionist cause helped the Jews return to Palestine in this century and found the state of Israel in 1948. The goal of Zionism is the political and spiritual renewal of the Jewish people in its ancestral homeland."

To others, "Zion" is more abstract, a place or religious community regarded as sacredly devoted to God, not tied to a specific locality.

The notion that "Zionism" is applied "abusively" seems to derive from those who think that 20th century Jewish resettlement of southwestern Asia on the eastern Mediterranean has unjustly deprived Arabs in the region of their homes. A common objection one hears is from those who hold this view is -- if it was the Nazis who systematically slaughtered 6 million Jews, shouldn't Germany be made to pay for this crime by forfeiting parts of its territory to be the secure national homeland of Jews, rather than Arabs who had no role in this mass slaughter of WWII? Some people remark that the world would have been better off if, say, "Zion" was set up in Oklahoma, or South America (or whereever) -- because for them, "Zion" is more abstract and is not tied to a specific region. People who hold this view regard "Zionists" as the cause of much of the conflict in the Middle East because they insist on their rights to these lands, and feel anger at them. However, "Zionists" are dedicated to the notion of southwestern Asia in the eastern Mediterranean as "sacred geography." that "Zion" can only genuinely be restored in this specific area.

[cali]

34. I have a few words for you:

The Protocols Of The Elders Of Zion.

[chookie]

65. Your point?

Sure I've heard of this infamous anti-Semitic hoax. But I have no idea how it relates to the ideas in my post. If you "have a few words" for me -- I'll need a few more to understand what the heck you're getting at.

My post
1) suggests that the idea of "Zion" -- a Jewish homeland -- is thousands of years old, predating the claims in this thread that it dates just to 1896.

2)That for some people, Zion is a specific place in southwest Asia where the Jewish homeland must be restored to, but that for other people, "Zion" is a more abstract utopia that can be set up anywhere on warth by a religious community.

[Solo_in_MD]

28. Its right up there with Jihadist and normaly a pejorative

[chookie]

30. "Normally a pejorative?"

I wonder why, then, the Zionist Organization of America (www.zoa.org/) employs it?

[Solo_in_MD]

60. Or for that matter ones call Islamic Jihad

[Finder]

33. Generally no, but the term is often used to distinguish between...

Jews and Christians in general and the neocon/fascist types.

[Posteritatis]

40. I'd suggest a rewording of the question

The word itself doesn't bother me; how it's used does.

So, how about "Is the term 'Zionist,' when used as a synonym for 'Jew' or 'Israeli,' offensive?"

[robinlynne]

45. my answer: yes.

[Mass]

46. yes

[Posteritatis]

49. (and, for disclosure's sake, I'd say "yes" myself.) (nt)

[Emit]

44. When there are groups that call themselves Zionist

Such as the Zionist Organization of America, and where there are prominent Jewish speakers at their events and such, it seems that the word Zionist is not necessarily a pejorative:

ZOA Mission to Washington a Success

On June 11-12, 2002 over 250 delegates representing over 30 states came together in Washington, D.C. to make themselves heard on Capitol Hill.

The mission began with dinner at the Israeli embassy, where activists heard addresses by Alan Keyes, Michael Ledeen of the American Enterprise Institute, and Rafi Barak, deputy chief of mission at the embassy.

The next day, the delegates met with members of Congress to urge passage of the Peace With Security Act, the Arafat Accountability Act, the Koby Mandell Act and the Syria Accountability Act. That was followed by a luncheon attended by five senators and over 20 representatives.

Later, activists heard from Aaron Miller, a senior State Dept. official, and then went to the Pentagon, where they listened to Undersecretary of Defense for Policy Planning, Douglas Feith; and David Schenker, Assistant Secretary of Defense.

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:ziGJCx00QWcJ:capwiz.com/zoa/issues/alert/%3Falertid%3D152184+Zionist+Organization+of+America+Michael+Ledeen&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1


However, I agree with some other posters. I guess it depends on the context that the term is used.

[question everything]

47. Like "liberal", depends on context

The Zionist dream refers to settling in a land of sand and swamp and turning those into flowering gardens. About the kibbutzim - communes where "from everyone according to his ability, to everyone according to his needs." (more or less). About determination and courage when tiny Israel defeated mighty armies of Arab nations during its war of independence.

And then the Zionist regime - a haughty insensitive one; etc.

Of course, there are many who have no idea what the term means, just like feminism.

[readmoreoften]

51. Question for those who don't believe that Israel should exist:

Where should the Jews go?

Please don't respond with the straw man argument: "Well, what about Palestinians?" I support the exist of both Israel and Palestine. I absolutely believe that the Palestinians should be given a separate and sovereign state. I am not anti-Palestine. I think that the Regime in Israel is psychotic and I'd love to see moderate and left Israelis take charge.

But I'd really like to know what people mean when they say that they aren't "anti-Semitic" or "anti-Israel" but they believe that Israel should not exist. Where are these people supposed to go? I'm not asking this rhetorically. I want to know *where do you think they should go after their country is abolished*?

I'd also like to know why it is just Israel that should be dismantled. Why not dismantle the U.S. for the same reasons? What am I missing here?

[shain from kane]

52. Into the sea? Just repeating what I read somewhere. n/t

[Lilith Velkor]

61. The U.S. is very large and ethnically pre-cleansed

Jews are welcome here.

I don't think Israel should be dismantled, I just think a safe homeland would be easier to establish here.

[readmoreoften]

64. And you think that the U.S. could accept...

as many Jews as close to the entire population of NYC, all five boroughs? Where would this mega city-nation be?

Two other things:

(1) What makes you think that Jews are so welcome in the U.S.? Our government supports Israel, but that has as much to do with the fact that Israel is located near countries with large oil supplies. It also has to do with the rabid Rapture-Right, who believe that Jesus will return when Israel conquers Palestine. I don't think for a minute that these megachurches in middle America who support Israel really want to live near a city-nation of Jews... or even a few families of Jews.

(2) Why is it moral to bring a nation of Jews to the United States? We are a (mostly European) nation that has displaced, brutalized, and exterminated the original inhabitants of this land. It seems to me that Jews have more history in Israel than Americans do in the United States. By this logic should we return to our original European homelands, or one of the 10 or 15 that we hail from? And where would Jews living in America go?

(3) Who would pay for 6,800,000 plane tickets?

Lucky for us, the Artic regions are melting so quickly that some areas have dry land. Maybe we'll have two continents to spread out onto soon enough.

[Lilith Velkor]

66. Sure, why not?

We've handled bigger waves of immigrants. As to your points:

1. Those Christianoids want everybody converted or dead anyway, so fuck 'em.

2. If everyone went back to where their ancestors came from, there would be fewer than 3 million people in the U.S. It is certainly more moral to offer our land than it is to offer someone else's, over their objections.

3. Lockheed Martin, Northop Grumman, Raytheon, etc.

And speaking of the Arctic, we may well have to relocate all our promised lands there anyway....

[npincus]

56. depends on who says it

[guinivere]

57. I don't know if it is offensive.

I'm not Jewish and haven't heard anybody use it in what could be considered a nasty way. But what do I know?

Nobody in my circle of friends uses it at all.


on edit--
Okay, I read through the thread. It certainly sounds like it has been turned into a slur.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

59. Why In The World Would It Be? It's A Descriptive Term Created By Zionists

There isn't a thing offensive about it. Sure, some could speak other words around it with a tone of offensiveness but that is within the attitude and intention of the speaker's surrounding words and context, not the word zionist itself. The word itself is the same Catholic or Protestan or Mormon Or Baptist Or Methodist Or Lutheran etc.

[Behind the Aegis]

62. Other: depends on how it is used.

[porphyrian]

63. Not in and of itself...

...however, a number of anti-Israelis like to use the term interchangibly with Israeli or Jew, often derogatorily and offensively.

Zionist is just a sect of Judaism that focuses on the establishment of Israel as a real place in and around Jerusalem. They have a history of being somewhat radical and aggressive in their practices over the last century, though this is in part to the hostilities in Europe and elsewhere which they had to endure. They're similar to our fundamentalists in some ways, and the good and bad that comes with that.

The term, however, is not a bad word in itself.

[Lurking Dem]

67. Here is the problem as I see it.

Those of us who use the term Zionist in its correct fashion, a belief in the state of Israel, get verklempt when people use the bastardized version of the word to mean Israeli expansionism.

I am a proud Zionist. I have personally met "anti-Zionists" who were anti-Semitic, spit-on-a-Jew pigs. They use the word Zionist as a cover for their hate. The President of Iran (and Hezbollah, and Hamas, etc.) uses the term because he refuses to recognize Israel as a state and you will notice that "Israel" or "Israeli" will never pass his lips.

Most people who use the term "Zionist" as a perjorative are not anti-Semitic. They are just bastardizing the word or don't understand what it really means.

The "nation of Israel" is more - much more - than the land on which it sits. It is an ideal that has held together a people through expulsion and extermination for centuries. And still we pray, "Next year in Jerusalem."

I would prefer that if people are talking about being against Israeli expansionism, settlements, etc. that they say they are against Israeli expansionism. You might find that most "Zionists" agree with you.

If we stop talking past each other we might could have an actual conversation.