23 states enable corporal punishment in school.

[SammyBlue]

23 States Still Permit Beating

There are actually twenty-three states which still have laws on their books permitting corporal punishment:

Alabama
Arizona
Arkansas
Colorado
Delaware
Florida
Georgia
Idaho
Indiana
Kansas
Kentucky
Louisiana
Mississippi
Missouri
New Mexico
North Carolina
Ohio
Oklahoma
Pennsylvania
South Carolina
Tennessee
Texas
Wyoming

http://privateschool.about.com/cs/forteachers/a/beating.htm

I am embarrassed. As an educator in Arizona, I am a mandated reporter for child abuse. If I do not report it, I could lose my certification and my teaching license. But, in the name of school discipline, I can beat a child. :wtf:

[fasttense]

1. I am just so glad my kids are grown.

With these wacko Christians pushing their bizarre world views on our public schools, I'm sure it's just a matter of time before they start routinely beating children at school again.

I was a victim of one crazy teacher who beat me until she broke my braces and split my lips. But back then, slapping, kicking and punching kids who talked back was routine. So who will report the teachers when they abuse the kids?

[proud2BlibKansan]

2. It is a violation of district policy where I teach

even though the state allows it.

I can still remember kids being spanked in the principal's office when I first started teaching nearly 30 years ago.

[Telly Savalas]

16. Do you have any idea what percentage of districts in KS forbid it?

Even a ballpark estimate?

It seems to me that even in the more conservative districts, they'd not allow hitting kids out of fear of lawsuits.

[SammyBlue]

20. I don't care if Districts forbid it.

Until it is codified into state law, any District can change it's mind.

http://www.stophitting.com/disatschool/facts.php

Look at the countries that ban corporal punishment. FUCKING RUSSIA, CHINA and THAILAND banned it. Why the fuck can't we?

[proud2BlibKansan]

33. No and I wouldn't know how to find out either

I would think very few allow it. There is the risk of lawsuits and also it is child abuse, and must be hotlined.

[dsc]

3. amazingly North Carolina isn't on the list

while both Ohio and PA are on the list.

[Qanisqineq]

5. read the list again

North Carolina IS on the list

[dsc]

18. oops

I did mess up.

[SensibleAmerican]

59. I definitely remember NC being on the list

:D

[TomClash]

4. Nuttin' like a good Gawd awful ass-whippin'

to make 'em lurn sum 'ritmatic.

[China_cat]

6. South Carolina's is a bit misleading.

Yes, corporal punishment is legal in the school...but ONLY with the parents' consent and you have to sign the consent form at the beginning of the school year. If it isn't signed, the school can get in a lot of trouble if they touch your kid.

[TahitiNut]

7. Paddlings in front of the class were regular when I was in 6th grade.

In a class of about 25 kids, there'd be 4-5 paddlings a week - the teacher was proud of his fraternity paddle, and his strong wrist. We were advised to pull our Levis taut over our butt and hold our ankles. The swats were strong enough to cause kids to stagger 2-3 steps forward. Although there were about as many girls as boys, boys got paddled about 2-3 times as often. An "A" student, I recall getting swatted about 5-6 times. The offenses? Talking in class. Passing notes. Stuff like that.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

12. Same here. In Nevada and Florida.

We moved around a lot when I was a kid. I can recall selecting a switch from a willow tree to take my "licks" in Florida. And, the ruler to the palms by a sweet looking gray haired lady in who swore the "niggers" would never, ever, be allowed in "White" schools in Jacksonville. This after the morning prayer when she absolutely frothing with Southern Pride.

In Las Vegas, the paddle was wielded by the principal in his office for the offenses. Talking, tardy, etc.

The "Happy Days" of the '50s when parents were expected to beat their kids and everybody "knew their place".

[Joe Fields]

8. I happen to believe in corporal punishment.

Other than detentions and suspensions, what other types of behavior modification are there for schools to keep children in line?

[SammyBlue]

9. Yes, let's beat them kids hard. . .let 'em know who's boss.

Let 'em know if they step out of line, the law can beat them.

Hell, let's put in that in adult life. . .the police can beat the hell out of you! The COs in prison can beat the hell out of you!!! Shit. . .Beating someone to death is the newest form of capital punishment.

You shouldn't teach if you do if you believe corporal punishment is great! And I'm disgusted that you do think it's great and you believe in it.

[LeighAnn]

31. Some people are disgusted by kids being drugged

Beating kids might be more humane than turning them into slaves to the pharmaceutical industry. Six of one, half dozen of the other, in my book.

When I was a kid, the beating we heard out in the hallways a couple of times a year was enough to deter the rest of us from exhibiting ADD symptoms and such. I don't think I ever went to school with a kid on "meds" and things generally went pretty smoothly.

[boolean]

39. Yeah...

Just look at how great the world turned out now that the beaten baby boomers are in charge...:sarcasm:

[Joe Fields]

45. Who said anything about beatings? I thought we were ....

trying to discuss corporal punishment. Another typical overreaction.

May I ask how old you are?

[LostinVA]

55. Corporal punishment is an assault

Both emotionally and physically.

And, before you ask ME, I'm 41... not that age has a damned thing to do with it.

And, corporal punishment IS a beating. A beating is an act of repeated striking or hitting. It has nothing to do with magnitude of force or injury.

[Joe Fields]

83. That's your definition. Half the country and several prior

generations disagree with you.

[Joe Fields]

44. My god, what a leap you have just made!

Get a grip on yourself, man.

Do you tend to have these types of overreactions as an educator?

[SammyBlue]

115. Beating children is wrong. If you support corporal punishment,

you support child abuse, pure and simple.

And, as for my "over-reactions". . .who the hell are you to judge me as an educator?

[proud2BlibKansan]

34. Well there is this thing called

POSITIVE reinforcement. Teachers learn all about it in Psych 101.

[LostinVA]

41. You got it, Teach n/t

[Joe Fields]

46. Could this possibly be one of the reasons why the dropout rate

is much higher in public schools, than when I grew up?

[TahitiNut]

48. "... than when I grew up?"

When will that be? :evilgrin:

[Joe Fields]

53. Your response confirms what I have assumed about your....

level of cognitive reasoning, your manners, civility, abilities to debate in a reasonable manner and your age.

[TahitiNut]

56. Well, golly - now I'm gonna lose sleep!

After all, your opinion of me personally is something I use to guide my every waking moment. It's the compass by which I steer my life! How can I possibly live a happy life without your approval? Oh! Woe is me!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

75. It's a pretty valid question.

You made a claim, you need to back it up. Frankly, I don't know when you were born either.

Especially considering the drop out rate today is roughly a third of what it was, say, forty years ago. And it doesn't get any better going further back in history.

So enlighten us. Or you could just take the foot out of your mouth.

[Joe Fields]

84. Could you be more specific? Which question; mine or the nut's?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

101. How does it feel?

To have completely lost the argument so soundly?

[Joe Fields]

106. Not as bad as it feels to have lost an entire generation,

because of a lack of sound discipline. You seem to be another one of those who cannot make a distinction between a measured form of discipline, absent of any anger, or beating, abuse, or a lack of control by an adult. Again, and I will say it until I die, corporal punishment is not abuse. But I don't expect you to understand the differences. You are much too willing, and it seems too convienient for you to lump everything into one big "abuse" package.

[LostinVA]

57. Oh giggle giggle giggle

Nice memes....

[kiahzero]

71. No, but it'd explain your failure of logic here.

Too many knocks to the head... maybe that's why you assume that correlation implies causation.

[Joe Fields]

85. You know, it seems that more people on this thread are interested

in trying to hurl insults than allow an opposing viewpoint. If it were my intention to throw insults, I doubt very seriously if any of you could keep up,

First of all, I never had a teacher or an administrator paddle me in the head. Secondly, it is mighty presumptuous of you, considering that you don't know me, to assume I have taken blows to the head. Thirdly, it is mighty brave of you to throw insults my way under an assumed name. My name is Joe Fields, and I have no reason to assume a differnt title, unlike everyone here. As far as your name goes, you've got that last part right.

[kiahzero]

90. Ha ha, it is to laugh.

Perhaps it might be considered a mistake to take someone who openly admits to being a smartass (*points to sig*) completely literally? I realize I may have brought it on myself with replying to two of your posts with quotes from a dictionary, so this may be an instance of being hoisted on my own petard.

I wasn't seriously suggesting that you had been struck to the head - the substance of my post, beneath the caustic beginning, was that your argument was seriously flawed in that you conflated the correlation of the decrease in corporal punishment with the increase in high school drop outs to some kind of causation. By the very same logic, you could argue that the decrease in corporal punishment has lead to an increase in the planet's temperature, and it would be just as correct as what you said above (which is to say... not).

[LostinVA]

40. Oh gawd

Honestly? If I had a kid, I would give them permission to defend themselves against ANY school official who PHYSICALLY ASSAULTED them. because, it is most definitely physical assault when an adult hits a child. It is a violent crime, no matter how some "educators" and even DUers wish to spin it.

[Joe Fields]

47. Corporal punishment is not "assault."

Another overreaction to this issue.

[TahitiNut]

51. Actually, it is. Literally. Battery, too.

If done to an non-consenting adult, it would be criminal. Even police are prohibited from exercising excessive force. Why is it less so when the individual is a child not of the age of consent? Under the kind of 'logic' that apologizes physical battery of children, rape could be legitimized - but only of children. It's a fascinating example of human irrationality, imho.

[Joe Fields]

86. Corporal punishment is not excessive force.

[TahitiNut]

105. Says you.

:rofl: Then again, you might have an 'interesting' attitude regarding S&M/B&D, too. :eyes:

[LostinVA]

54. Let your boss whack the hell out of YOUR ass, then

Of course it's assault, and of course it's not an overreaction.

HITTING SOMEONE WITHOUT THEIR CONSENT IS ASSAULT. I don't care if the PERSON (not thing, not property) is two or 102.

It's assault.

I find your rush to "corporal punishment" as the way to discipline kids an overreaction. Glad you're not a teacher. Seriously.

[Joe Fields]

89. So, am I to assume from your statement that you are condemning

all teachers past and present who employed the use of corporal punishment as a form of behavior modification?

I'll tell you this much, and it would be hard to argue against. Children from my generation and before were much more respectful and polite in society than generations x,y or z. Part of the reason was that kids knew that there were consequences to their actions. A swat on the ass or two ISN'T supposed to feel good. And when a child does something wrong, an adult DOESN't reason with them. Kids DO want to know just where the line is drawn. And yes, corporal punishment is just one of the tools to help kids grow into responsible adults.

[tkadmin]

112. Let your boss whack the hell out of YOUR ass, then

Some of you are so young and innocent.  It's great to find
kids with such spunk.

Given my druthers, if I screwed up really bad at work (lost a
big contract because I slept thru the alarm, whatever) I would
take that swatting if that was all there was to it.  I mean,
no gettin' fired, no gettin kicked down the ladder, no more
big wigs thinkin you ain't worth crap.

As long as all I got was a swat every once in a while and the
story was pretty much over.  No permanent damage to my psyche
or nothin'.  Every couple of years you usually get a chance to
start over.

Now that I'm gettin older I have to worry a lot about screwing
up at work.  Those butt-nuggets will remember stuff forever,

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

72. I happen to believe it's incredibly stupid.

[kiahzero]

78. I guess you'd know better than the American Academy of Pediatrics.

http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics;101/4/723">AAP Statement

I guess they just don't understand children. :shrug:

[Joe Fields]

91. Your link doesn't work.

And the American Association of Pediatrics is suspect. I'm sure they think it's perfectly alright for millions of kids to be put on ritalin, when really all the kids may just need is a few good swats on the ass to settle them down.

[kiahzero]

96. Go here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporal_punishment#Arguments_for_and_against

Fifth paragraph down, click the <2> link. They have a semicolon in the URL for some dumb reason. I thought using the link tag would make it work from my message, but I guess not.

So, once you've read it, I suppose you'll be submitting your research on the effectiveness of spanking as a treatment for ADHD to journals for peer-review?

[Zhade]

79. Well, then you might as well support torture.

It's on the same path.

[Joe Fields]

92. Again, quite a leap, and nothing to support your belief.

[Zhade]

103. Whatever helps you sleep at night, buddy.

NT!

[Joe Fields]

108. Brilliant rejoinder, totally lacking of quality or substance.

Your words are meaningless, as they provide no argument to back them up. Personally, this topic has absolutely no bearing on how I sleep at night. You might as well have said that, I am in favor of arson, because I build campfires when I go camping. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. Advice? Take a course in logic.

[bigendian]

10. My first and last paddling was in 1962. IIRC.

I stuck my tongue out at a teacher. It really didn't change me except that I thought twice about it in the future. And then there was that free floating anger...........but that is another story.

[EFerrari]

11. My brother was hit by a teacher once. My mom went to the school

and relieved them of my brother and a good chunk of his teacher's @ss. I don't know if it was legal then in California. My mom didn't seem to know or care.

[Joe Fields]

49. What exactly do you mean by the term "hit?"

Did the teacher make a fist and sock your brother in the jaw? Or was it a measured form of corporal punishment, in the form of a paddling?

[LostinVA]

60. Hit means to strike someone -- it doesn't mean punching

Man, you are loving playing semantics on this thread. It really seems to cheese you that some of us take exception to children being physically assaulted by adults, especially so-called educators.

[EFerrari]

67. Good question. The teacher (as far as I know at this late date)

lost his temper and struck my brother on the shoulder.

But, does it matter? When does losing it help your students?

I'm a teacher as well. I've found that hurting people doesn't help them LEARN. But that's just my anecdotal experience. :sarcasm:

[Joe Fields]

94. WE're not talking about "losing it." Jeeze, talk about

irrational thought processes. You can't seem to make a distinction between measured discipline, beatings, child abuse, or losing it. No point in debating this any further. We clearly have entrenched beliefs.

I do know this much. I spanked my child when he was a toddler. I never had to lay a hand to his backside after the age of five. He has not ever disrespected me or my mother. He has never been in an ounce of trouble. He was an excellent student, graduated with numerous awards and honors and is one of the nicest people I know. I am very proud of him. He is vastly different than most kids his age. I don't know for sure how other parents raise their kids, but I do know that what worked for my mother and father, also worked for my wife and me. The proof is in the results. I know of no other kids my son's age who are nearly as polite or as thoughtful, or who are as well balanced. My son doesn't hate me, doesn't resent me, and in fact we are very good friends. How many other parents can say that?

[EFerrari]

104. No, I don't make a distinction between "measured discipline"

and beating. That's right.

[Joe Fields]

109. So, you admit to possessing faulty logic?

[kiahzero]

73. hit

v. hit, hit·ting, hits
v. tr.
1.
a. To come into contact with forcefully; strike: The car hit the guardrail.
b. To reach with or as if with a blow: The bullet hit the police officer in the shoulder.

[Joe Fields]

95. You are obviously more interested in making an ass of yourself than

debating this topic.

[kiahzero]

99. The sig speaks for itself (n/t)

[tkadmin]

13. 27 other states

That leaves 27 states that will take your child away and stick
them in a place where you will not be able to see them or even
talk to them because somebody's gramma with nothing better to
do than hide and watch out for "bad" parents who
have a tight hold on Jrs. hand so he will not run into
traffic.

Why can't we find a middle ground?  This smells suspiciously
like the a government asking people to rat out parents,
friends or neighbors who had performed some frowned upon
activity.  Perhaps singing certain songs or reading certain
publications.

C'mon dammit!  The left is supposed to be all about the
government getting out of people's lives.

We should find some way to protect as many children as
possible while leaving parents in as much control as possible.

I guess I'll get insulted and be called a :consensus
maker".

[blonndee]

14. Actually, there are 50 states, not 60.

And are you saying that the OP shouldn't be required to report suspicions of child abuse?

[tkadmin]

24. How should abuse be reported?

The public can report whatever they want whenever they want. 
Government should have to report.

Question is, how do the authorities respond to a report?

[Now I'm making law.  I promised I'd never do it again.]

Don't take anonymous calls.  Advertise that fact.  Someone has
to be responsible for making the call.

If the abuse is verified by two gov employees or there is
physical evidence concerning abuse, take the kid.

If abuse is verified by one gov employee that is certified on
the subject, take the kid.

If the kid says he is afraid of being further abused if
released to their family, take the kid.

If everyone involved (especially the kid) agrees that this
does not warrant taking the kid, let kid go back with family.

Under all but the most obviously dangerous cases the family of
kid gets to have monitored calls to the kids.  Gov person
involved will describe what kind of atmosphere the kid is in,
group home, foster home, whatever.

[blonndee]

26. And that relates to your objection

to the OP how? Sorry, but I'm completely lost here.

[proud2BlibKansan]

35. I guess you don't realize how many kids will say they are afraid

of being abused once they know that is enough to get them removed from their homes.

Yes, unfortunately, kids do make up abuse allegations. That's why an investigation must take place before they are removed from their homes.

[tkadmin]

25. Actually, there are 50 states, not 60.

Huh?  Where does 33+27=60?  Did I mistype something/

Cut me some slack.  I'm an old fogie who is just starting to
lose my memory.

[blonndee]

28. Oh, I was just giving you a hard time

for fun. Just teasing. No, the OP has 23, not 33, states in which corporal punishment is allowed. Sorry, I should have put a smilie in my first post. :)

[tkadmin]

114. Oh, I was just giving you a hard time

No prob Blondie.  I just get pissed at myself when I do stuff
like that.

Have you heard that sayin' "I'm my own worst
critic?"  Well, if you can you should lose that feelin'
real soon.

I'll make one up.  "No time is wasted more than the time
you spend chewin' your old underwear."

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

15. Did you read the same article as me?

I don't think the policy of the other 27 states is to "take your child away and stick them in a place where you will not be able to see them or even talk to them because somebody's gramma with nothing better to do than hide and watch out for "bad" parents who have a tight hold on Jrs. hand so he will not run into traffic."

Seriously, smoke a bowl and chill, because you seem to be a bit over-reactive & paranoid?

And welcome to DU! :hi:

[SammyBlue]

19. There is no g-d damn middle ground.

BEATING CHILDREN IS WRONG, but as a teacher, I shouldn't be forced to violate of student's confidence and lose my student's respect because the law say I am.

I live in Arizona. . .not much of a bastion of liberality.

[tkadmin]

27. There is no g-d damn middle ground.

Please, if you will, describe "beating."  

[SammyBlue]

29. Corporal punishment is a beating, I don't care if it's a tap on the ass

or a switch! CORPORAL PUNISHMENT has been banned in all industrialized nations, except ours.

If you can handle beating children, Freeptard, fine. . .I cannot stand for it.

[LostinVA]

42. You got it -- I said the same in a post up thread

If ANYONE assaulted me physically in any way, I would defend myself and then have them arrested, and take their ass to court. Let's make believe it was my boss, since that is akin to a principal. WTF do people think would happen to her/him? So, why do kids not have the same rights against assault as adults? Disgusting.

[Joe Fields]

50. That is your opinion, and you are entitled to it. I disagree.

Corporal punishment is much different than beating a child.

[LostinVA]

61. No, it isn't -- beating someone just means to strike repeatedly

THAT'S a beating. And, unless you're into S&M, it's an assault.

I wash my hands of you.

[kiahzero]

74. I guess if you only spank them once, maybe...

beat
v. beat, beat·en, (btn) or beat beat·ing, beats
v. tr.
1.
a. To strike repeatedly.

[LeighAnn]

66. In Malaysia they sell switches in the stores

My mom just got back from there, she said they sell "whipping switches" in the markets the same way they sell candy and cigarette lighters. I don't think corporal punishment has been banned in all industrialized nations, or any for that matter, except Switzerland. England tried it last year and failed.

[kiahzero]

76. Hrm.

"Most countries have banned the use of corporal punishment in schools, beginning with Poland in 1783. The practice is still used in schools in some parts of the United States (approximately 1/2 the states but varying by school district within them), though it is banned in others."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporal_punishment

[newyawker99]

36. Hi tkadmin!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[politicat]

17. Having actually looked into this...

The problem looks worse than it is.

Colorado technically allows corporal punishment. A nonprofit with which I am associated contacted every school district in the state (there are lots) and we got their policies on CP. 90% of the districts do not allow it, having either written in later rulings that prohibit the use or having restricted the use so much that it is no longer even considered as a possibility or allowing it to stay on the district books, but making it very difficult for parents to approve the use of corporal punishment by the school.

Of the 10% of districts that actually have not ruled, we asked them for an incident report summary (they supply this to the state BOE every year, and it is a public document without names or identifying details) and we found that corporal punishment happens in about 1 in 10,000 elementary school kids, 1 in 21,000 middle schoolers, and 1 in 85,000 high school students. There are less than 10 incidents per year state wide, and most of those are parents who basically delegate what they would do at home. Honestly, I don't consider these numbers to be a problem.

I can send you the documentation, if you like.

To me, it's a local control issue. My community does not allow CP at all, even in private schools (home schools excepted.) But a school with 100 students in K-12 where several of the teachers are related to the students? (Lots of our small towns come to mind) That's a community utterly unlike mine, and they get to determine their own standards.

I don't agree with CP and I don't think anyone should use it because it is ineffective and unreliable, but I also don't want to be told how to discipline my child. I don't want the Dobsons of the world telling me I have to spank, so I have to take the liberty to choose side of the argument.

[Freddie Stubbs]

37. Most teachers are too afraid of lawsuits to actually touch a student

[tkadmin]

116. Most teachers are too afraid of lawsuits to actually touch a student

I have a different opinion.  I don't think it's the teachers
who are afraid of getting sued; no deep pockets in the pants
of the teachers I knew.

It's the administrators protecting their positions and the
district that doesn't want to pay out.

Tell you a story about where I come from.

I was a physics and chemistry teacher in a few high schools. 
I was applying for a job at TUSD district 1, the biggest
district in the state.  Went to an orientation.  The guy doin'
the talkin' said that teachers are never to touch students. 
The example he used was a kid flippin' the lights on and off. 
Couldn't touch at all till the school officials showed up. 
OK, so I raised my hand and explained that there had to be
exceptions to the rule.  In the subjects I was teaching there
is a history of somebody drinkin' something bad or
electrocuting themself.  I was told that under "No"
circumstances could we touch a child.  I asked the guy who was
brilliant enought to think up this crap.  His response was,
"our legal staff has advised that this is what we have to
tell you".

[kiahzero]

77. It's not an issue of parental rights.

It's a matter of children's rights. Assault isn't OK when they're over 18, what relevant difference is there that makes it OK to assault people under 18?

[politicat]

80. I'm not saying assault is okay. Geez. Read the post.

I don't believe in corporal punishment. However, parents are allowed to make decisions for and about their children. I'm sorry if you don't like the law that way, but believe me, the alternative is worse, going either way. I don't want the schools, government or legislature telling parents that corporal punishment is either required OR forbidden. There are too many places where such a ruling would hurt more than it helped.

But there's also local control of school districts. Bennett SD (a small district out on the plains; they have about 250 students K-12) has far different needs and standards as a community than does Boulder Valley SD (40,000 students k-12 in a metro environment). I do not want Bennett making decisions for Boulder Valley, and Bennett does not want BVSD making decisions for Bennett. We have a local control system in this state for a very good reason. The districts have highly varied cultures.

If a parent chooses to delegate a means of discipline to the school, and chooses to allow the school to use corporal punishment, while I disagree, that is between the parent, the child and the school. I, as a citizen, have no right to interfere in that decision. If the school district chooses not to use corporal punishment at all, then good for the district. As a citizen who does not have a dog in the race with regards to other school districts, my only concern is that the district is producing graduates that are capable readers, writers, mathematicians and have a firm grounding in cultural knowledge of the arts, science, logic and citizenship.

Children aren't adults. We have laws in place that recognize that. They are a different class of citizens, and there's a huge difference between a spanking and assault and battery. (The legal definition of assault and battery is different than the legal definition of just assault, which can be verbal only.)

[kiahzero]

81. Children aren't chattel

I don't want the schools, government or legislature telling parents that corporal punishment is either required OR forbidden.

Why don't you want the government enforcing the same legal code for those under 18 as those over 18? For such discrimination to be ethical, there would need to be a relevant difference in those two classes.

But there's also local control of school districts. Bennett SD (a small district out on the plains; they have about 250 students K-12) has far different needs and standards as a community than does Boulder Valley SD (40,000 students k-12 in a metro environment). I do not want Bennett making decisions for Boulder Valley, and Bennett does not want BVSD making decisions for Bennett. We have a local control system in this state for a very good reason. The districts have highly varied cultures.

What relevent diffence in culture is there that would allow for beating a child?

If a parent chooses to delegate a means of discipline to the school, and chooses to allow the school to use corporal punishment, while I disagree, that is between the parent, the child and the school. I, as a citizen, have no right to interfere in that decision. If the school district chooses not to use corporal punishment at all, then good for the district. As a citizen who does not have a dog in the race with regards to other school districts, my only concern is that the district is producing graduates that are capable readers, writers, mathematicians and have a firm grounding in cultural knowledge of the arts, science, logic and citizenship.

You have no concern about the human rights of people in other school districts?

Children aren't adults. We have laws in place that recognize that. They are a different class of citizens, and there's a huge difference between a spanking and assault and battery.

Interestingly, if I overpowered a smaller person and hit them repeatedly on their ass to "teach them a lesson" and my victim was over 18, I would go to jail. Doing the same to a person under the age of 18 is somehow legally acceptable. To reiterate, my question is: what is the relevant difference between the class of people over 18 and the class of people under 18 that makes this situation unacceptable in the former case but acceptable in the latter.

[politicat]

88. Well, the relevant differences are that those over 18 are adults.

Their brains are more developed, they have more complex moral and social reasoning capabilities, they're legally capable of managing their own legal affairs, and they are granted the right to self-determination. They also don't have the responsibilities that legal adults get. Yes, it is a legal distinction that is perilously close to a circular argument. Sorry. These were the rules found when I got here and changing the legal status of children to accord them all of the same rights and responsibilities of adults is another argument entirely. I do not see it as equivalent to the status of women or minorities before civil rights; children gain the rights and responsibilities upon legal maturation.

Toddlers don't have these rights mostly because they don't yet have the social, economic, moral, ethical and legal responsibilities that adults do. Their wellbeing is the responsibility of the adults who care for them. You'll note that children gain more rights and responsibilities as they grow into adulthood, and that's the point

And the major reason I believe that local control of this specific issue is necessary and proper is because community standards vary. I live in a metro area where standards of safety and rights are appropriate to the local conditions. We cannot have the same laws that apply to a rural area; they're unworkable here. On the other hand, the laws we pass are excessive for a small town/rural environment.

I also don't see it as a major issue -- ten cases a year is 25 cases fewer than we have of bubonic plague per year in my state, and while I disagree with the policies, all of the school districts in my state have a parental opt-out clause that allows parents the choice to delegate or not corporal punishment. So if a parent opposes corporal punishment, the parent has the right to decide that the school will not have the right to use corporal punishment with their child. If a parent chooses to not opt out, then that's the parent's decision.

I would never agree to it. However, I don't want to be forced to agree to it, either, and knowing how my state and its fundies work, if we made it state law that corporal punishment was always forbidden, they would be pushing for it to be always available. I would far rather that it be a process that falls into neglect and disuse and seeps out of the public consciousness (as is happening) than that it becomes a major wedge issue that gives the idiots more leverage. Yes, I'm being politically expedient. But the process, as it is happening, is reducing the incidence of public school corporal punishment far more quickly and effectively than the outlawing it entirely would.

[kiahzero]

93. Now we're getting somewhere

Their brains are more developed, they have more complex moral and social reasoning capabilities, they're legally capable of managing their own legal affairs, and they are granted the right to self-determination. They also don't have the responsibilities that legal adults get. Yes, it is a legal distinction that is perilously close to a circular argument. Sorry. These were the rules found when I got here and changing the legal status of children to accord them all of the same rights and responsibilities of adults is another argument entirely. I do not see it as equivalent to the status of women or minorities before civil rights; children gain the rights and responsibilities upon legal maturation.

I'll agree that you cannot treat children exactly the same as adults - there are relevant differences. For instance, you could argue that before an age of maturity (which has been decided to be 18 here in the U.S.), people are insufficiently mature to make their own political decisions, and therefore deny them the vote on those grounds. That's a valid public policy argument. However, I would argue that there is no relevant difference that makes beating a child appropriate at any age. By our principles of equality, the burden of proof lies with those asserting that there is a relevant difference that justifies discrimination based on a classification under the law. So, again, I ask you - what is the relevant difference that makes it OK to strike someone under 18 to "teach them a lesson," but not OK to strike someone over 18?

Toddlers don't have these rights mostly because they don't yet have the social, economic, moral, ethical and legal responsibilities that adults do. Their wellbeing is the responsibility of the adults who care for them. You'll note that children gain more rights and responsibilities as they grow into adulthood, and that's the point.

Agreed - there are relevant differences between toddlers and adults that justify such a distinction.

And the major reason I believe that local control of this specific issue is necessary and proper is because community standards vary. I live in a metro area where standards of safety and rights are appropriate to the local conditions. We cannot have the same laws that apply to a rural area; they're unworkable here. On the other hand, the laws we pass are excessive for a small town/rural environment.

I don't think that community standards really have a place in this discussion, as it's a discussion of human rights. Community standards gets into a morass of cultural relativism into which I'd rather not descend. Human rights are human rights, regardless of the society the human is in - the only question is whether or not they are respected.

I also don't see it as a major issue -- ten cases a year is 25 cases fewer than we have of bubonic plague per year in my state, and while I disagree with the policies, all of the school districts in my state have a parental opt-out clause that allows parents the choice to delegate or not corporal punishment. So if a parent opposes corporal punishment, the parent has the right to decide that the school will not have the right to use corporal punishment with their child. If a parent chooses to not opt out, then that's the parent's decision.

This prompts a question: do you see corporal punishment as fundamentally abusive? I do, therefore I don't see it as "the parent's decision" to force their child to submit to such abuse, any more than I would see it as "the parent's decision" to force their child to submit to any other type of abuse.

I would never agree to it. However, I don't want to be forced to agree to it, either, and knowing how my state and its fundies work, if we made it state law that corporal punishment was always forbidden, they would be pushing for it to be always available. I would far rather that it be a process that falls into neglect and disuse and seeps out of the public consciousness (as is happening) than that it becomes a major wedge issue that gives the idiots more leverage. Yes, I'm being politically expedient. But the process, as it is happening, is reducing the incidence of public school corporal punishment far more quickly and effectively than the outlawing it entirely would.

Rhetoric aside, I am enough of a pragmatist to agree with you on this. Given that I feel corporal punishment is abuse, I see nothing wrong with taking the path that will lead to its elimination in the most effective way, even if that method is somewhat indirect. That doesn't mean I won't rail against it when I get the chance.

[Clark2008]

21. I don't know about the rest, but, in Tennessee, parents have

to give consent before any educator can use corporal punishment. You have to sign a waiver at the beginning of the school year.

Needless to say, I don't waive that - in other words, I don't allow the school to adminster corporal punishment. I always simply, you know, get to know my son's teachers so that if he acts up, I know about it and *I* am the one who decides punishment. Luckily, my son never really acts up beyond the one time he put peas in the chair of a girl who had put green beans in his. LOL.

Edited for clarity.

[Generic Brad]

22. What do those states have against corporals?

Why don't they slap up some lieutenants while they are at it?

The only things I believe in hitting are the sheets, the books, and the bricks.

[Clark2008]

32. I'm sure you've hit on a few women in your time, too

But I mean in a dating situation. :hi:

[Generic Brad]

68. Unsuccessfully So

Win some, lose most.

[Nicole]

23. Oklahoma Board of Education doesn't forbid or endorse it

It's up to each school board to decide if they will use it. The state's two largest districts, Oklahoma City and Tulsa, don't allow it.

I believe the ones that do allow it are required to have the parent's permission on file to do so. I had to sign an agreement that I would come pick up my child if needed for discipline since I refused to allow the school permission to spank.

[SammyBlue]

30. Silence is consent. But not outlawing it, they approve in a sort of

backdoor way, like how Cockfighting wasn't illegal in Arizona, so it happened. There was no law, so therefore it is legal. Unless there is a law outlawing a practice, the state consents to the practice.

Therefore, Oklahoma's government supports beating children.

[LostinVA]

43. Bingo n/t

[Toots]

38. Nationwide what are the percentages of child/wife abuse in those states

as compared to the others I wonder. Also the divorce rate. I read somewhere that the divorce rate and domestic abuse rate in Red States was considerably higher than the rest of the USA. I guess when you teach children that hitting is the way to get the behavior you wish that is what they do...

[Odin2005]

52. Corporal punishment is bad for society as a whole.

It teaches those kids that when they are parents it's OK to beat thier kids.

[SensibleAmerican]

58. No, you can not beat a child

Spanking is not beating. :eyes:

[LostinVA]

63. If you strike the child more than once, it's a beating n/t

Before that, I would consider it hitting a child. And, I would consider both assaulting a child.

[wicket]

62. When did Vermont outlaw it?

It was legal when I attended school in the 80's & early 90's. It was used anyway.

[LostinVA]

64. For all the corporal punishment apologists here, answer me this:

Why can you legally hit a 17-year-old student, but not an 18-year-old student? Anyone? Bueller?

BECAUSE HITTING THE OLDER KID IS LEGALLY ASSAULT. You can't do it. Lawsuits have been won over this. So, why the HELL is it NOT assault -- at least morally, even if the law is too ignorant to agree -- to strike that 17-year-old kid a day before their majority birthday? Does this hypocrisy not sour your stomach? Does this "proof" that child aren't REAL citizens with rights not bother anyone else?

God, proper have the kids being hit at school by adults in power, mainly men, are going home and getting beaten by their parents. Nice lesson.

It's stupid and ignorant and barbaric. We shouldn't hit our kids, no matter what the hell they're doing at school. Violence solves NOTHING. It takes a village to raise and form a child, not a freaking paddle or strap wielded by an adult arm.

[Joe Fields]

98. Tell you what. You go kiss your child on top of the head and

give them a big hug the next time they do something wrong, then continue doing it every time they misbehave and see what kind of favor you have done for the child when they grow up.

[LostinVA]

65. For all the corporal punishment apologists here, answer me this:

Why can you legally hit a 17-year-old student, but not an 18-year-old student? Anyone? Bueller?

BECAUSE HITTING THE OLDER KID IS LEGALLY ASSAULT. You can't do it. Lawsuits have been won over this. So, why the HELL is it NOT assault -- at least morally, even if the law is too ignorant to agree -- to strike that 17-year-old kid a day before their majority birthday? Does this hypocrisy not sour your stomach? Does this "proof" that child aren't REAL citizens with rights not bother anyone else?

God, proper have the kids being hit at school by adults in power, mainly men, are going home and getting beaten by their parents. Nice lesson.

It's stupid and ignorant and barbaric. We shouldn't hit our kids, no matter what the hell they're doing at school. Violence solves NOTHING. It takes a village to raise and form a child, not a freaking paddle or strap wielded by an adult arm.

[jazzjunkysue]

69. And are their test scores better for it? Hmmm?

Not in:
Alabama
Arkansas
Florida
Georgia
Kansas
Kentucky
Louisiana
Mississippi
Missouri
New Mexico
North Carolina
Oklahoma
South Carolina
Tennessee

I don't have the education stats in front of me, but, none of the states listed above are known for decent schools or test scores.

Correct me if I'm wrong about any of them.

[Cybergata]

70. New Mexico may be on the List, it may even be in the law books, ...

but most (if not all) districts outlaw it. If they didn't, the law suits would clog the courts.

[SammyWinstonJack]

82. I never spanked my children and I would never allow strangers too lay

a hand on my own! This is bullshit!

[Codeine]

87. I got paddled quite a few times

as a child in Wyoming. It kept me from acting a fool and really wasn't all that big a deal. I certainly don't feel like I was assaulted, battered, beaten, or abused by getting smacked on my ass with a paddle every once in a while when I got out of line.

[Cybergata]

102. Well...

I've been teaching for 30 years, and if a person isn't creative enough to find other ways to work with kids, then they are pretty dense and lazy. Love is far stronger than the paddle.

[tkadmin]

113. Well, Really?

I was a teacher too, in both public and private schools and
I'll tell you what those "other ways to work with
kids" has got us.

Drugging kids a lot more than we should, and "Zero
Tolerance."

And the next thing that happens is that a 6 year old gets
suspended for taking a GI Joe pistol to school.  A girl gets
expelled for the rest of the year because she gave a friend a
Midol.  Kids get put in counseling for drawing a picture of a
gun.

If those ain't just about the two most stupid things I've
heard today then I must be readin' too many computer
application install manuals.

[rubberducky]

97. If anybody ever abuses my grandson

they would have to deal with the grandma from hell!!!!!!

[Massacure]

100. What does federal law say on the matter?

[WinkyDink]

107. School control is local. How are there "state" laws pertaining to this

issue?

I know my former school distirct in PA. disallows corporal punishment.

[TexasLady]

110. Im with you on this one

I dont spank my kids, and no one else had better, either. Besides, if a child, in a wheelchair acts up, what does a teacher do? does one teacher take the child out while another doles out the whipping? My child is hearing impaired, and we have sent notes every school year that she had better not be spanked. So far so good.

[blue collar welder]

111. A smack on the back side

is a far cry from a beating,I had my far share of them and I turned out just fine.