Israel is better than Hezbollah

[Clarkie1]

Hezbollah wants conflict. Israel wants peace.

Hezbollah is an organization of thugs that has been condemned by the world, including many states in the arab world. Israel is a sovereign democratic state.

Hezbollah attacks without provocation. Israel does not.

Any more questions?

Edit: This is in response to a thread equating Israel with Hezbollah. I am not saying I agree entirely with the current tactics of Israel in responding to the terrorists, but in order to have any useful discussion of the issues involved, I believe we need to have a starting point grounded in reality.

[AlamoDemoc]

1. yeah!

[CuteNFuzzy]

2. Israel sure has murdered a lot of civilians

How do you justify it?

(that's my question)

[Clarkie1]

4. This thread is in response to a question, I answered the question.

Civilians die in wars, it is not murder, it is a tragedy.

[CuteNFuzzy]

5. so your above post was sarcasm?

[Clarkie1]

7. Yeah, originally...but I edited to answer your question anyway. nt

[CuteNFuzzy]

19. When Israeli civilians die

due to suicide bombing, rocket attack, or other attack, do you justify that with the answer "civilians die in wars, it's not murder but a tragedy"?

[Clarkie1]

28. That is terrorism perpetrated by not by a sovereign state,

but an organization of thugs that has been condemned by most of the Arab world.

There is no comparison.

[CuteNFuzzy]

32. makes no sense.

Dead Lebanese civilians is not murder, but a tragedy.

Dead Israeli civilians is terrorism and no comparison.

This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

[Clarkie1]

42. Yes it does.

Hezbollah are the agressors, and have been condemned by the most of the Arab world and the rest of the world. They have been lobbing rockets into Israel long before this.

A sovereign state responding to attack is not considered terrorists. You or I may disagree with the level of the response, or the methods, but there is truly no comparison on ethical grounds.

Israel does want peace, and Hezbollah wants war. That's a fact.

[CuteNFuzzy]

45. "responding to attack"

IS indeed terrorism when they are bombing fleeing refugees and laying waste to entire neighborhoods.

Hizballah can make the same excuses - that they are "responding" to whatever it is they don't like about Israel. That does not justify killing civilians, just like Israel can in no way be justified in killing Lebanese civilians.

[Clarkie1]

52. Unfortunately, these thugs have their headquarters

in the neighborhoods of the innocent.

It's a tragedy, and like I said how Israel is responding can be debated on moral grounds, but to equate the actions of Israel and Hezbollah is ludicrous.

Let me repeat, because this is most important:

Hezbollah WANTS war.
Israel WANTS peace.

[CuteNFuzzy]

61. "Hezbollah wants war, Israel wants peace"

I disagree, I think this outlook is too simplistic and I believe you overlook the hate factor involved. If you do not think there is some level of hatred running through the ranks of Israel's military then you have more observing to do my friend.

[Clarkie1]

70. Do you disagree that all of Hezbollah wants endless war

until Israel ceases to exist?

Do you seriously believe that the majority of Israelis do not want peace?

[CuteNFuzzy]

76. You've shifted slightly

from "Israel wants peace" to focusing on "the majority of Israelis".

Of course the majority of the masses is to live in peace. That goes for Israelis and Lebanese.

These issues are not so simplistic as one side wants war the other side wants peace. There is a long history of conflict and hatred. Ultimately I cannot speak for what anyone wants or doesn't want really.

But what I will continue to say is this - The punishment meted out to innocent civilians on both sides can not be justified by any stretch. Call it terrorism or retalitaion or whatever term you like, there is no justification for it, and it doesn't even matter to me anymore who has the moral upper hand. No justification for striking at civilians!

[Clarkie1]

79. Of course the issues aren't that simple.

And, unfortunately in war (and Hezbollah has choosen war) civilian causualties usually cannot be avoided.

I understand the issues are the most complex in the world today, but we need to start somewhere. And no, I haven't shifted. When I said "Israel" I meant the state of Israel, which is a democracy, and the majority of people in Israel want peace. I never said every Israelis citizen wants peace.

[CuteNFuzzy]

85. I need to get to sleep

I have appreciated the remarkably civil tone (in comparison to other boards I have visited where Israeli issues are the topic).

[Clarkie1]

90. Goodnight. nt

[springhill]

8. What Isreal is doing is a WAR CRIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Clarkie1]

13. I think what Hezbollah is doing is the bigger war crime.

Hezbollah wants war. Israel wants peace.

[springhill]

20. Let's see..............

So far 24 Israeli civilians dead, a little under 200 dead Palestinians. Yea, you're right.

[Wonk]

23. and 8 Canadian citizens, dead from Israeli bombs, as well. nt

[Clarkie1]

30. That's a tragedy.

Look, legitimate criticism of Israel is justified, but not equating them with Hezbollah.

Do you disagree with any of the statements in the OP?

[Rex]

93. I guess you have a funny definition of murder.

Israel has a ton of blood on it's hands, so does Hezbollah, so does the United States, so do other countries. Stop trying to justify murder, it is not a tragedy. A tragedy is something you see in a play on a stage. Murder is something you see in war and as much as you won't admit it, Lebanon and Israel are at war right now. No tragedy, just grim death.

[Clarkie1]

24. Do you disagree with any of the statements in my OP?

Morality is not a numbers game. You can criticize Israel with legitimate arguments, but you cannot legitimately say they are on the same level as Hezbollah.

You cannot determine who is right or wrong the most by keeping a scorecard of the dead.

[CuteNFuzzy]

27. "Morality is not a numbers game"

Is your response to Israel ruthlessly bombing civilians?

Wow. Just .... wow.

[Clarkie1]

89. Do you disagree with the statement? nt

[hfojvt]

51. saying that "Israel wants peace" does not make it a fact

Mr. Clark seems not to agree.

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0717-26.htm

For a nation that wants peace, they are quick to crank up their war machine at the slightest provocation.

[Clarkie1]

80. I've never heard of this David Clark, but I'll read it. nt

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

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[niyad]

94. when civilians are deliberately targeted, that IS murder, and a tragedy

that the murderers aren't punished.

[Wonk]

3. "Hezbollah attacks without provocation. Israel does not."

Noam Chomsky - "Gaza, itself, the latest phase, began on June 24. It was when Israel abducted two Gaza civilians, a doctor and his brother. We don't know their names. You don’t know the names of victims. They were taken to Israel, presumably, and nobody knows their fate. The next day, something happened, which we do know about, a lot. Militants in Gaza, probably Islamic Jihad, abducted an Israeli soldier across the border. That’s Corporal Gilad Shalit. And that's well known; first abduction is not. Then followed the escalation of Israeli attacks on Gaza, which I don’t have to repeat. It’s reported on adequately.

The next stage was Hezbollah's abduction of two Israeli soldiers, they say on the border."

more
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/07/14/146258

[Clarkie1]

6. Hezbollah has been firing rockets into Israel long before this started.

I find assertion dubious at best.

[JackNewtown]

39. Why were they abducted?

I find it hard to believe that Israel would randomly abduct civilians. I bet they had links to terrorism.

[Clarkie1]

47. Israel does not randomly abduct civilians.

Your intuition is right on that one.

[sleipnir]

9. Wow. This wins the "Flame-Bait of The Day" award.

Congrats.

[Clarkie1]

14. Well, I'm just trying to get some facts posted on this board. nt

[charlie]

12. No questions

You're the Star of the Class. Thank you Joe Lieberman for Standing T--- wait, that was last week's lesson.

[MarkDevin]

15. Yeah, I have a question.

Why is it that I keep hearing that the Israeli soldier was "kidnapped?" Since it's a war situation, that soldier was captured, not kidnapped, and is a POW.

Must be that goddamned anti-semitic U.S. news media.

[Clarkie1]

18. I assume you agree with the facts posted in my OP then. nt

[MarkDevin]

25. Try posting some facts and I'll let you know.

[Clarkie1]

26. Are you going to answer my question? nt

[Clarkie1]

34. Try telling me which one you don't consider a fact.

And then I'll take your post more seriously.

[cboy4]

44. Oh stop with your symantics. Yea, like it's a big F-ing difference for

all the devastated families of rocket attacks on both sides whether the soldiers were kidnapped or captured.

Jesus.

[liberalpragmatist]

16. Yes, that resolves everything

:eyes:

[Clarkie1]

21. No, it resolves nothing.

I posted this in response to a ludicrous thread entitled "Why is Israel better than Hezbollah" that shamefully has been voted to the greatest page.

Do you diagree with my OP?

[JackNewtown]

41. "greatest page"

I am new here. What is that page and where is it?

[Wonk]

82. See the icons at the top of every page? It's the yellow star.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=greatest_threads

[liberalpragmatist]

64. No, I don't disagree with your original post

I support Israel's right to exist, I would love to visit the country, and there's a lot to admire in Israel. I don't wish the death of any Israelis - civilians OR soldiers. And of course I would prefer living in Israel than in Hezbollah's enclave in S. Lebanon or a Hamas-run WB or Gaza.

Now, I'll grant you that I had neither read nor seen the post asking whether Hezbollah was better than Israel, although I probably shouldn't cast judgment on that thread without reading it first. Still, that does change the context of the OP.

The point that I'm making, is that this kind of empty-boosterism doesn't really accomplish anything. YES, Israel is better than Hezbollah, but is a conflict this complex really going to be reduced to a simple Bushian "good vs. evil"-black/white dichotomy? This is the same kind of rhetoric right-wingers use to brush aside criticism of the U.S. in Gitmo and Abu Ghraib ("they're worse"). We're all hopefully taught from our parents at a young age that the morality of one's own actions should be judged independently. One's actions ought to be measured by universal standards of morality, not in relation to the actions of somebody else. The same applies to nations.

On a more practical level, Israel has legitimate grievances and the right to self-defense; but I question not just the morality but the effectiveness of Israel's response. Israel seems to believe that by inflicting collective punishment on the Lebanese it will cause them to rise up against Hezbollah. Just like they think that punishing all of Gaza will turn the Palestinians against Hamas. Or that earlier campaigns would crush Palestinian support for Arafat. Why does the Israeli government persist in the foolish belief that other people will react the same as they - or any human being - would? When countries or communities are attacked, they rally together irrespective of the rightness of their cause. Hezbollah's rockets didn't strengthen Israel's peace faction - instead most of the country, including most of the Israeli Left - has united against Hezbollah and Lebanon. Likewise, Israel's incursions are only uniting th Lebanese against Israel. Just like Arafat's approval ratings rose from the 30th percentile to 70 following Sharon's 2002 seige of Ramallah and the West Bank.

I'll conclude by returning to the topic of my second paragraph. Yes, Isreal is held to a higher standard. I don't mean that Israeli actions have a lower moral threshold than Hezbollah; that would contradict what I said in my second paragraph. The outcomes of the actions of either side must be judged by a universal standard. A civilian death is a death, pure and simple. A callous disregard for that possibility is worse and a deliberate targetting is worse still.

What does depend on the context is the way in which the outcomes reflect the actors involved. Nobody expects anything different to come from Hezbollah, which is a terrorist group, based on its targetting of Israeli civilians. More is expected of Israel. As a modern state and a democracy, it should be expected to act with the maturity befitting a modern state and to respond to attacks in a mature, rational way, rather than giving in to base, vengeful emotions. Israel, of course, isn't the only country in the world to respond this way - unfortunately, most do (the U.S., the French, etc.). But the conversation at hand is about Israel and Lebanon, so discussing Israel's role is appropriate.

[Clarkie1]

72. Thank you for your thoughful post. I agree with it.

My purpose of posting was to start with a basic premise of truth, which you have affirmed. It was not to give an in-depth analysis.

If people come to the discussion thinking Israel and Hezbollah are morally equivalent, really there is nowhere to take the discussion.

[CuteNFuzzy]

91. "morally equivalency" can be argued endlessly

and is kind of pointless really. It makes no difference to victims of the war crimes being committed by both sides.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Clarkie1]

22. I'm not saying that, nor comparing Jews and Muslims.

Why are you changing the subject?

[CuteNFuzzy]

29. I agree

that post was out of line

[Fleshdancer]

31. At this point, does it really matter?

The way I see it, if Israel keeps destroying Lebanon's infrastructure the way they have been for the past several days, then their government will collapse and we run the real risk of Hezbollah running the whole damn country. The same Hezbollah that, as you say, wants conflict, is an organization of thugs and attacks without provocation.

Seriously folks, I really don't see how anyone can say they support the existence of Israel while also agreeing with their current tactics. It's so ridiculously short sighted and very dangerous.

[CuteNFuzzy]

35. does not matter to suffering masses

Those caught in the crossfire of hate and ruthless terror displayed by both sides

[Clarkie1]

38. So you do not support the existence of Israel? nt

[Fleshdancer]

46. WTF?

seriously? out of everything I just wrote, THAT is your question?

[Clarkie1]

54. Yes, seriously. In your own words...

"Seriously folks, I really don't see how anyone can say they support the existence of Israel while also agreeing with their current tactics."

Seriously, that implies you disagree with the tactics (not a problem with me) and therefore do not support the existence of Israel.

[Fleshdancer]

62. um, noooo

I support the existence of Israel which is WHY I completely disagree with bombing Lebanon's infrastructure because I don't want Hezbollah to gain complete control over the entire country and ultimately causing more death and destruction in the long term.

I still thought it was pretty clear in my first post.

[Clarkie1]

74. Thanks for the clarification. nt

[blonndee]

50. WHERE did you get that? I thought that was a good post. nt

[Clarkie1]

55. It's in the last line...here own words....seriously. nt

[blonndee]

66. I read her post

but that is not what she meant. She can speak for herself, but here's what I got out of it.

Full quote:
"The way I see it, if Israel keeps destroying Lebanon's infrastructure the way they have been for the past several days, then their government will collapse and we run the real risk of Hezbollah running the whole damn country. The same Hezbollah that, as you say, wants conflict, is an organization of thugs and attacks without provocation.

Seriously folks, I really don't see how anyone can say they support the existence of Israel while also agreeing with their current tactics. It's so ridiculously short sighted and very dangerous."

In this context, it's clear to me that she's saying that those who "agree with their current tactics" are actually not supporting Israel's right to exist BECAUSE their current tactics will end up working against Israel. That's what I got out of it the first time I read it and still do. I think it expresses legitimate concern over Israel's future.

[Fleshdancer]

71. Thank you Blondee

That is exactly what I was trying to say.

[Fleshdancer]

69. seriously, my last line did NOT say that

If Hezbollah gains control of Lebanon, then it ultimately extends the death and destruction for Israel. THIS is why I don't want Israel to bomb Lebanon's infrastructure.

[eridani]

33. The current faction running Israel wants extermination of Palestinians

--and the theft of the remainder of their land. Being fair here, plenty of Israelis oppose that.

Israel created Hezbollah, which did not exist until they invaded Lebanon in 1982.

Both Israel and Hezbollah attack with the exactly the same provocation, namely something that the other guy did last week. It's like the endless backseat kids' car game "I got you last."

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

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[CuteNFuzzy]

37. oh really?

Do you know them personally?

[Bucky]

40. While I technically agree with you, I think you're setting the bar low.

I think drunk drivers are morally superior to hit-n-run drunk drivers. I still don't approve. Israel's actions, while provoked, are over the top and are carefully calculated to escalate the crisis. While I'll agree that Israel has the right to defend itself, I'd have to argue the same holds for Lebanon. Since innocent Lebanese are being killed by ordance fire originating in Israel, doesn't Lebanon right now enjoy the same right to start shelling, strafing, and bombing Israeli targets, civilian collaterals be damned?

[Clarkie1]

43. You or I may say the response is "over the top"

and the level of what would be the best response can be debated, but there are some here who are equating Hezbollah with Israel. I cannot allow such an absurdity to go unchallenged.

[CuteNFuzzy]

57. Nothing absurd about it

Ask yourself one question - why are you so against Hizballah? The answer presumably is their killing of Israelis.

Israel has demonstrated an equal willingness to kill civilians. Now why do you want to defend these Israeli actions so badly, yet you are so against Hizballah? It just doesn't make any sense. There is no moral high ground for either side, whatsoever, when killing innocent families and children is going on by both sides.

Me, I'm against both sides displaying so much ruthless aggression. What Israel is doing now in Lebanon are acts of HATE. These are hate crimes, nothing more, nothing less. These are not "responses". These are not "retaliations" or campaigns to get the soldiers back. It is pure hatred, plain and disgustingly simple. I do not understand the failure to recognize this. Look at the pictures of bombed out neighborhoods.

Have you seen the children's bodies strewn across the ground from the Israeli attack on fleeing refugees?

Why rush to the defense of such hatred?

[Clarkie1]

63. I'm not defending Israel's tactics.

It is a fact that Hezbollah WANTS war, and Israel WANTS peace.

Israel is doing this because they think it is the most effective way to peace...it's sad, but that's where Hezbollah has led them.

Hezbollah is doing this because they WANT endless war until Israel ceases to exist.

[CuteNFuzzy]

83. ok fine

Hizballah wants war Israel wants peace (stated for the sake of argument, I don't really agree)

It's still no excuse for bombing civilian targets. I really don't care who has moral high ground. There is no moral high ground when you are striking at children and civilians, and Israel has demonstrated no hesitation in doing so. Stating that "well Israel really wants peace" and therefore is only doing this in retaliation for some act or another, makes zero difference. Some 200 Lebanese are now dead, with 13 being non-civilian (The Guardian I believe is the source I am thinking of on that). This makes Israeli actions just as murderous and just as wrong as any act Hizballah has ever committed.

[Clarkie1]

87. No.

Let me repeat:

In war, civilian casualties often cannot be avoided. Especially this kind of war where they are hiding out in neighborhoods in Southern Lebanon.

It's not the same as targeting civilians deliberately.

[eridani]

58. Who's equating the two? One is a nuclear power and the other isn't.

I'd say that was a pretty important difference. The Israel/Hezbollah kill ratio is about 20/1, which is also a pretty significant difference.

[Clarkie1]

68. What does any of that have to do with the OP? nt

[eridani]

78. Israel has a vastly more powerful military.

Thus, they account for most of the killing, beating out Hezbollah by 20 to 1. Having nukes gives them lots more options.

[Clarkie1]

81. What is your point?

That Israel has restrained themselves from using nuclear weapons? Do you think Hezbollah would do the same?

Think about that one.

[eridani]

84. Irrelevant. Hezbollah doesn't have any. n/t

[Clarkie1]

88. Yes, as irrelevant as everything you've posted on this thread. nt

[AlamoDemoc]

60. yes, you are right...Hizballah is defending the Lebanese people

...Hizballah are the defenders of Lebonan...they have been for the last decade, and now more than ever, against Israel.

"doesn't Lebanon right now enjoy the same right to start shelling, strafing, and bombing Israeli targets, civilian collaterals be damned?"

[Clarkie1]

65. I hope that is sarcasm. nt

[Solon]

48. Then why can't they just target Hezbollah?

Right now they have targeted the infrastructure of the country, its airport, roads I can somewhat understand, but not busses, and not ambulances either. Also, what is the point of attacking Beirut and its Suburbs?

[Clarkie1]

59. Those are good questions.

I believe unfortunately these thugs are integrated into the society, and it's hard to separate them out. But Israel definitely should be question for every tactic they employ.

None of that, however, changes the most important fact:

Israel wants peace, Hezbollah wants war.

[CuteNFuzzy]

67. You should read Robert Fisk's book

Pity the Nation

Then ask yourself if Israel really wants peace. (btw Fisk is the West's most respected M.E. writer)

[Clarkie1]

75. I don't have to read to know most Israelis want peace...

I already know that. But I'll consider reading the book if I have the time.

[CuteNFuzzy]

86. sorry

In my mind I differentiate "Israel" with "most Israelis". When someone says "Israel" in discussions such as these I generally think of the country elite and those in power. I would never try to argue that most Israelis don't want peace, that would be assuredly false

[Seabiscuit]

49. In a perfect world, the leaders of Israel, Hezbollah and Hamas would

all just kill each other and leave the rest of us alone.

Unfortunately, they all target civilians, and civilian infrastructure (water, electricity) first.

They're all to be condemned for their trigger-happy murderous practices.

[rpannier]

53. Your assertion is kind of like saying

having a good job and a house is preferable to living in a box.
It's a big understatement. Coming from someone who lives in Asia (me), your subject line is very true.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

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[Clarkie1]

77. Please elaborate....by the way please read the OP again (edit). nt

[Name removed]

92. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

95. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Wonk]

98. I didn't see either of them before they got removed, but here's the link

to the DU rules page.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html .

edit: the period broke the link, fixed now.

[Quixote1818]

96. I agree, but Israel is making a lot of mistakes.

Both sides are screwing up big time but if Hezbollah wasn't constantly fucking with Israel, Israel would not fuck with them. If Hezbollah wanted peace their would be peace. They obviously don't.

[Sherman A1]

97. Can we ask the sailors of the USS Liberty

If Israel does or does not attack without provocation?

[DELUSIONAL]

99. BINGO! Never forget the USS Liberty -- NEVER

No matter what -- Israel is in this for Israel -- they don't give a damn about the US -- other than the money that they can get from the US.

That money dries up and they would have very little use for the US -- and they would find another Sugar Daddy.

They have their own agenda ...

and a segment of the US population has an agenda -- the religious right

[Behind the Aegis]

100. Why don't you learn a little more about it.

It appears you don't know anything other than throwing out that non-sequiter.

[Dutch]

101. You're correct of course

Equating a gang of extremist thugs with a liberal democratic state is abominable- but naturally, that sure as hell wont stop people here doing it.