I Have Also Seen Much I Find Anti-Semitic Posted. Please Stop That Too.

[DistressedAmerican]

I recently posted a thread calling for people to help the mods keep the tensions down and alert on folks that are throwing around accusations of anti-semitism as an insult:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1654075

Now the flip-side of the coin for everyone to also keep in mind.

I have seen just as many posts here that I have found cross the line into covert and even overt anti-Semitism.

Blanket suggestions of Israeli "control" over our foreign policy, government, etc. ARE unfounded smears. I am well aware of the various pro-israeli lobbying groups that are influential with the administration and the arguments made. If you want to address those specific groups and their arguments for a certain policy position, you should be providing very specific examples of what you are talking about. You should not be talking in massive broad-brush terms. Such talk is anti-semitic in my opinion and it is VERY divisive.

Many of the MIHOP and other "conspiracy" theories are LOADED with anti-semitism. Many contain notions that either Israel (or worse some vague religious based conspiracy) were the attackers, that they had advance knowledge and evacuated all jews from the towers, etc. These theories ARE WITHOUT A DOUBT anti-semitic. If you see posts if that nature you should be alerting the mods to them. They are extremely inappropriate.


What is going on in the Middle East is terrible. Both sides have much blood on their hands from decades of fighting. Feelings on the left are deservedly mixed.

As this unfolds I urge all of us to remain very aware that the feelings are very strong on this issue. Those sentiments can flare out of control if we all do not do our part to understand where the other side of this discussion is coming from and to avoid unnecessary rhetoric that just causes this site to fission into camps.

That is as pointless as the violence itself and it is crippling as we head into what I believe is the most important mid-term election in our country's history. We can not allow anything but total victory in November if we ever want to hold this administration accountable for all that they have done. Please remember the greater goal as we react to events on the ground.

Help keep things civil by keeping the mods informed of both anti-semitism and unfounded charges thereof. Thanks.

[jonnyblitz]

1. I have seen it , too, after I did my rant about false accusations

and then BAM there it was in a thread : "JEWS CAUSED 9-11"

shit like that has NO FUCKING PLACE on a progressive board, let alone it doesn't even make sense anyways.

the problem is with the false accusations going on it's hard to get people to note the actual real instances because they are immune to the charge because it's thrown around so much.

[DistressedAmerican]

3. Never Forget That Some Trolls Also Sew That Kind Of Division!

Both are exploitable by the asshats that troll places like DU.

Best to just help the mods edit the stuff right out.

It may be sincere, it may be disruption, either way, it definitely does not belong here. :puke:

[ikojo]

2. Just as many say any criticism of American actions

around the world are anti American so too do too many people conflate criticism of the Israeli GOVERNMENT with hating Jews.

OY vey that is so not the case. The one way to shut down discussion of Israel in the US is to throw around the anti semite canard and I am tired of it. It shuts down debate within the Jewish community and without and noone gets anywhere.

Unfortunately because of Bushian policies the US is no longer seen as the beacon of peace around the world. So, too is it the same with Israel. After the 1967 war Israel was seen as a plucky underdog who managed to defend itself against stronger and more numerous Arab states. Now with decades of US assistance Israel is no longer the weak state founded after the European massacre of WWII, but as a militarily strong state able to defend itself against all attackers. In my opinion it gets harder and harder to see Israel as a victim.

[jonnyblitz]

4. very true but there is some stuff being spewed here that actually

is anti-semitic.

good post.

[Minnesota Libra]

5. Very well put - thank you - I've been.........

.....thinking along those same lines. Thank you for reminding us of the need for fairness though.:applause:

[Jacobin]

6. Is that kinda like "anti-american"?

Or is that slur more slurworthy?

:eyes:

[ikojo]

9. What about those who post that fundie christians

control the current administration?

[tocqueville]

13. at least Dubya admitted he receives orders from God nt

[Jacobin]

28. Well, they do, as far as I can tell

If you haven't noticed, the fundie christians and Likudniks have gotten a very very very cozy relationship of late.

Its all too bizarre to be real, but it is real nonetheless. I live around these forking dweebs and they are utterly insane and utterly swoon over Israel.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

7. "The first casualty, when war comes, is truth." Hiram Johnson

I can think of no better example of Senator Johnson's observation than the conflict(s) in the Middle East.

[ProfessorGAC]

8. I Don't Understand

While not reading the entire link (and i apologize for that) your statement in your 4th paragraph refers to "Israeli" control of foreign policy, gov't, etc. You call them unfounded smears. Wouldn't those "smears" been anti-israeli, not anti-semitic. It would seem that unless someone specifically smears the Israelis for being Jewish, it would not be anti-semitic.
The Professor

[IndyOp]

14. If the complaint is against the Israeli Government then we should say that

We *all* understand that there can be a huge difference in what a Government wants and what a People wants. Ha'aretz polls often show that a majority of the Israeli people do not agree with their Governments policy.

I am suggesting, following up on your reply that we not only need to carefully separate Israel and Judaism - we need to go further - and distinguish between the Israeli Government and the Israeli Jewish and Arab and Christian and other citizens.

All of us on this discussion board DETEST what our Government is doing and we pray that the world recognizes that we are not the Government and we working to change the government - though not nearly fast enough.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. They stem directly from things like the

Protocols of the Elders of Zion, just updated

[ProfessorGAC]

22. Fair Enough

To all three of you. But, the OP did use the exact phrase about ISRAEL having too much influence. I think one can have that perspective and not have any negative attitudes about Jewish folks in general.

I know i have, in the past, questioned the allegiances of some of our political leadership with regard to Israel. That's mostly because, however, i question the strategic importance of Israel to the United States in some regards. So, when i hear people here make claims of the strategic importance of our unwavering support and explicit approval of Israel as a country, i question whether they are more loyal to Israel than the United States.

That is not, IMO, rooted in any anti-semitism. It's rooted in a valid questioning of the opinion of those very people. I'm not insulting them. I am doubting their wisdom, though.
The Professor

[DistressedAmerican]

16. It Is A Matter Of Eye Of The Beholder and Reading. Specifics Are Best.

As noted sensitivities are high and different folks have different thresholds of what they find anti-semitic slurs. It is best to keep all of the above to a minimum.

As I said, If there are specific policies that you believe are affected by specific groups of people, those specifics should be laid out. The generalization only opens every one to reading things are their particular biases lead them too.

Specifics do not open the discussion to that kind of mis or individual interpretation and the flame outs that ten inevitably occur as one or the other escalates into something unintended (if in fact unintended as you suggest).

Hope that clarification helps.

[BonnieJW]

10. Thank you for posting this

I found DU after the heartache of 2004. I found hope, intelligence, patriotism and the determination that we would get our country back. What I have seen on the boards of this web site over the past several days has given me heartache again. Just because Bush supports Israel, doesn't make Israel bad or wrong. Many of us have family living there; family who imigrated to Israel after the Holocaust. Some comments have been so hateful, it's hard to believe this is DU.

[OneBlueSky]

11. criticism of Israel is not necessarily anti-Semitic . . .

nor is discussion of Israel's influence on US foreign policy, particularly under BushCo . . . what is, is . . .

[DistressedAmerican]

17. I Am Well Aware Of that. Did You Follow The Link?

Just speaking to bothsides and reminding folks who du's "PEACE KEEPING TROOPS" are:

THE MODS!

[msongs]

12. Semites = Palestinians, Arabs, Hebrews etc AND Hezbollah :-)

definition from Answer.com:

Sem·ite (sĕm'īt') pronunciation
n.

1. A member of a group of Semitic-speaking peoples of the Near East and northern Africa, including the Arabs, Arameans, Babylonians, Carthaginians, Ethiopians, Hebrews, and Phoenicians.
2. A Jew.
3. Bible. A descendant of Shem.
____________________________________________________________

perhaps you could clarify your term. instead of saying "anti-semite" you could say "anti-Israeli", if that is what you mean specifically.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/demfest1.htm

[Cameron27]

20. "Anti-Semitism has never anywhere been concerned with anyone but Jews

"Anti-Semitism has never anywhere been concerned with anyone but Jews"

German political agitator Wilhelm Marr coined the related German word Antisemitismus in his book "The Way to Victory of Germanicism over Judaism" in 1879. Marr used the phrase to mean Jew-hatred or Judenhass, and he used the new word antisemitism to make hatred of the Jews seem rational and sanctioned by scientific knowledge. Marr's book became very popular, and in the same year he founded the "League of Anti-Semites" ("Antisemiten-Liga"), the first German organization committed specifically to combatting the alleged threat to Germany posed by the Jews, and advocating their forced removal from the country.
So far as can be ascertained, the word was first widely printed in 1881, when Marr
"Antisemiten" in the "Neue Freie Presse" of January. The related word semitism was coined around 1885. See also the coinage of the term "Palestinian" by Germans to refer to the nation or people known as Jews, as distinct from the religion of Judaism
…..The term anti-Semitism has historically referred to prejudice towards Jews alone, and this was the only use of this word for more than a century. It does not traditionally refer to prejudice toward other people who speak Semitic languages (e.g. Arabs or Assyrians). Bernard Lewis, Professor of Near Eastern Studies Emeritus at Princeton University, says that "Anti-Semitism has never anywhere been concerned with anyone but Jews."<8>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Semitism

(sorry part did not paste well..having trouble gettin online to DU today)

[bloom]

35. Use is how people use it.

Use is how people use it. I saw in a European news source (I don't have it right now) that was referring to anti-semitism that was including anti-Jewish and anti-Muslim and anti-any-Semites from the ME. And why shouldn't it?

I think it's ridiculous not to use the word that way. If people want to say that people are specifically anti-Jewish - then they should say so. IMO. If they mean that someone is anti- Israel - then they should say that.

[DistressedAmerican]

36. Exactly. A Word Means What The Speaker Means It To Mean.

I have never heard the term used in any other context. Frankly, I find the kind of logic you are repsonding to stretching the definition of "Is".

[bloom]

39. Maybe it's just that people in Europe

are less susceptible to intimidation. If it makes sense to use the word that way - why not?

The writer was talking about bigotry against people who are Semites. What other word should someone use? I think that that writer makes more sense than the ones around here.

[mmonk]

18. I agree there is some of that in some of the charges people make.

Sometimes, because of that, people who really do make valid points concerning brutality on both sides, but happen to point to Israeli brutality in an attempt at some balance about events are mischaracterized as supporters of middle eastern terrorism and/or antisemitism. Nothing is as clean and pretty as some want to believe. Everyone needs to realize this as events unfold before our eyes and especially when our government may not seek a quick peace or cessation of hostilities that affect many who aren't combatants in order to make political points.

[mom cat]

19. I think that we should be very careful about how the term "anti-semetic"

is used.
First, there ate a lot of Semetic peoples in the world, only some of whom are Jewish.
Also, many non Jewish Semites also face severe discrimination.
Furthermore, the phrase "anti-semetism" has been used for too long to silence opposition to aggression by the Isreali government. It is no more "anti-semetic" to question Isreal's policies ahan it is "anti-American" to question the policies of the US.

Real anti semetism is the ugly Nazi cry for the extermination of "the other" and should roundly be condemned. However, criticizing Isreal for human rights abuses, expansionism, and conquest of the Palestinian homeland is not the same as advocating the extermination of the Jews. The issue is one of human rights for all, not just for one group.

[Skip Intro]

21. I'm sorry, but who are you to tell me what I should or should not say?

just asking...

[DistressedAmerican]

23. I Consider It A PSA For Civility And Sensitivity.

If you find my advice unpalatable, do not follow it. If you di, go with it. I have no more influence than a stop smoking ad or any other generalized PSA type of statement.

Take it in the spirit of general civility, peacemaking and calming of the waters of do not.

Up to you. Have a nice day either way.

[Cameron27]

25. You're trying to do a good thing DA

Thanks for the attempt.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DistressedAmerican]

31. See My Previous Replies To You.

Not all have the same goals here. :hide:

[lonestarnot]

24. He is Distressed American Skip Intro.

And he wasn't telling you what to say or not to say. Just a friendly reminder.

[LittleClarkie]

26. A friendly reminder of the rules, really. And a plea for civil debate.

That is all.

And a reminder that if one sees something that is offensive, the only ones who can really do anything are the mods. Better to alert them than to get into an ugly debate that can't go well.

[jonnyblitz]

30. I can't believe anybody would have a problem with this. nt

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DistressedAmerican]

33. Now, Now.

:grouphug: PEACE

[ProfessorGAC]

38. A Bit Over The Top, JB

I think there is plenty of room between criticizing Israel and not being CALLED anti-semitic, and being truly anti-semitic. The OP doesn't make quite the distinction many here assume.

The fourth paragraph illuminates that lack of distinction. The OP describes the influence of ISRAEL on our gov't. In the interest of discouraging anti-semitic remarks, the OP almost calls for a halt to anti-Israeli remarks. I think it narrow to consider the two equivalent.
The Professor

[OregonBlue]

32. I don't approve of the current American administration or it's war

policies. So, I'm anti-American? I have every right to criticize those policies. I also have every right to criticize Israeli policies without being called anti-Semite. I don't hate Americans, I don't hate Israelis. I do hate what we and they are doing in the name of the people.

[DistressedAmerican]

34. Please Be Specific And Back Up Your Points.

Avoid the generalizations that frequently pass as shorthand for lots of different things to lots of different people and it should not be an issue.

If it is, let the mods know. Neither behavior is constructive or appropriate here.

[DistressedAmerican]

37. .

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Warren Stupidity]

41. Sorry but your paragraph 4 is nonsense.

I am not compelled to be "providing very specific examples" of AIPAC and friends and their influence on and networked association with the Neocon Cabal running Washington, as it is a plain fact. Our foreign policy is ridiculously slanted in favor of Israel, and there is within the Cabal what can rightly be called it's Likud Wing. They view Israeli and US national interests as the same and their little experiment in imperialism is the product of that shared vision.

That does not mean that Israel controls Washington, and any such statements are hyperbole. It does mean that we cannot separate Israeli and American foreign policy as they are intertwined. The current crisis must be viewed within the context of The Cabal's PNAC mission inthe Middle East if one wants an analysis based in reality.

[DistressedAmerican]

42. I Do Not Understand Your Objection From Your Comments.

You are "not compelled" to do as I suggest and provide specific examples of your issues regarding the groups you mention? I guess that is your choice.

However, I fail to see that suggestion is "nonsense"? Is your claim that this influence is so all pervasive that you should not have to provide them? That the pervasive nature of this influence makes speaking in borad brush generalities that are frequently taken as attacks is just fine?

I really don't get it. Help me out.

Here's the paragraph in question. Perhaps you would not mid pointing out exactly what you object to:

"Blanket suggestions of Israeli "control" over our foreign policy, government, etc. ARE unfounded smears. I am well aware of the various pro-israeli lobbying groups that are influential with the administration and the arguments made. If you want to address those specific groups and their arguments for a certain policy position, you should be providing very specific examples of what you are talking about. You should not be talking in massive broad-brush terms. Such talk is anti-semitic in my opinion and it is VERY divisive."

I completely agree with this part of your post. I do not see it as contradictory to my poitiion in any way:

"That does not mean that Israel controls Washington, and any such statements are hyperbole. It does mean that we cannot separate Israeli and American foreign policy as they are intertwined. The current crisis must be viewed within the context of The Cabal's PNAC mission inthe Middle East if one wants an analysis based in reality."

I never suggested we should try to do anything of the else.