I've been FREEPED! Desperately need HELP!

[Seabiscuit]

It's been awhile since Katrina, but it appears that the freeptards are still spewing right-wing talking points to whoever will listen, or at least whoever happens to be a captive audience.

It happened to me Sunday, from a family relation who is a died-in-the-wool Bush supporter who endlessly repeats the right-wing spiel he hears on Fox and talk radio every day to anyone who happens to be around.

His latest was about Katrina (again) and he lambasted both the Louisana Governor and Mayor as being "incompetents". His slam on the Governor was that she never declared a state of emergency. This was such old hat I disposed of it easily in an e-mail (the first I'd ever sent him) where I provided links to the August 26 State of Emergency declaration from the Governor and Bush's August 26 response in the form of a declaration of a federal state of emergency for Louisiana.

Rather than respond to that, he again blasted Nagin in a follow-up e-mail on the subject of the schoolbuses. Here's what he said:

_________________________

"According to the New Orleans Times-Picayune, this is what
they say:
In the face of a catastrophic Hurricane Katrina a mandatory
evacuation was ordered for New Orleans by Mayor Ray Nagin
Acknowledging that large numbers of people, many of them
stranded tourists, would be unable to leave, the city set up
10 places of last resort for people to go, including the
Superdome.
The mayor called the order unprecedented and said anyone
who could leave the city should. He exempted hotels from
the evacuation order because airlines had already canceled
all flights.
Gov. Kathleen Blanco, standing beside the mayor at a news
conference, said President Bush called and personally
appealed for a mandatory evacuatrion for the low-lying city,
which is prone to flooding.
The ball was placed in Mayor Nagin's court to carry out
the evacuation order. He had the authority to use any and
all services to evacuate all residents fromn the city, as
documented in city emergency preparedness plan. By
waiting until the last minute, and failing to make full use
of resources available within city limits, Nagin and
administration dropped the ball.
These public servants let 569 buses that could have carried
33,350 people out of New Orleans-in one trip-get ruined in
the floods. Baton Rouge is only 45 miles up the road so
they could have made multiple trips. Whatever plan these
guys had, it was a dud. It probably would have worked if
they'd bothered to follow their emergency preparedness
plan, already in place."

"My own footnotes are:
I lived in New Orleans for a month, on a Navy base. Guess
what when a hurricane would come in the Capt. of the base
did not have to come with an idea on what to do. He would
just refer to his hurricane emergency preparedness plan,
which was posted in my dorm room and all over the base.
The Mayor did't have to be a rocket scientist he just had
to follow the citys emergency preparedness plan???????
Another lingering question I have is, I guess the word
Mandantory means nothing. I can remember on the news
that they were advising tourists to leave, several days before
they used the word mandantory. I guess both words mean
nothing. I would have left before they got to the advising
part. I was lucky not to see a hurricane when I was there.
There can be a lot of finger pointing for blame. The Bush
hater's believe it was all his fault. I put blame on the Fema
director that Bush appointed who is not around anymore.
I put blame on the govenor, and most of the blame on the
mayor. I also understand that there was not enough food
water etc. at the shelters in New Orleans. You don't try
to buy batteries for flash lights, food, water during a
hurricane or after one has just hit. I would assume fuel
for buses, food , water would all have been in the New
Orleans emergency preparedness plan. That is where
I guess Bush went wrong, he assumed that local officials
had half a brain."

___________________________

What do you all have to say about all that? I have had a hard time finding complete and reliable information about his bus issue. What I have found is some rather poorly referenced/documented stuff about the Governor being ordered by a FEMA official before the levees broke that the schoolbuses were not to be used because they didn't have air conditioners, and promised to supply well-equiped buses to Louisiana, which were very slow to arrive, and were of no real help during the first week after the levees broke. I have also found poorly referenced/documented stuff about how the schoolbuses were under water after the levees broke. So I don't know what really happened, and we all know that the only way to counter a freeper is with documented evidence.

So I need your help, folks - I haven't responded to his e-mail yet and won't until I know what I'm talking about.

Please.... HELP!!!

[ladjf]

1. Seabiscuit: Here's my help for you. Ignore those ignorant

people and get on with your life. You are more enlightened than they. But, will be unable to alter their view in the slightest. Their minds are closed. That's why they think like they do.

[400Years]

5. Don't ignore them they need to be blasted with facts

[ladjf]

9. 400years; My experience with those types is that they never

change. If you've had success by "blasting them" then my hat is off to you. Rave on!

[400Years]

12. well by "success" I would simply mean

they run and hide in their lair seething with rage over the ass whipping they just got.

I doubt if I've changed their minds but I'm only referring to the freeper troll types not rational conservative types.

[ladjf]

14. I see your point. Your strategy is to not allow them the smugness

of "beating up" on the Dems all the time. You want them to have to take some of what they have been dishing out. In that sense, we are on the same page.

[Seabiscuit]

8. Well, I've tried that approach for years with this guy. But

he's been more militant than ever lately and manages to corner me at every family event we both attend and lay his freepshit on my ears as he did this Sunday. In the past I've generally changed the subject or walked to another part of the property but this time I engaged him because one of the first things he claimed is that Governor Blanco never granted a state of emergency, which I knew was provably false, so I responded about it which set him off on an angry tirade. He's a nasty old fart who gets very angry about politics and sees people like me as the enemy. I distance myself as much as possible from his political rants because he's got a bad temper and I don't want to cause problems with the rest of the family. I actually get along with the jerk on other subjects, but he now seems obsessed with dogging me with his political sputum again.

So now I'm stuck with the above e-mail from him. I can't just ignore it, or he'll think I've conceded every one of his points, and I'll never hear the end of it at future family functions.

[NMDemDist2]

2. the buses ended up underwater (in a famous freeper pic)

and the folks who came to the Dome were told to bring two days supplies with them. Nagin was promised relief by then and FEMA had all kinds of resources being held in Shreveport and Baton Rouge that Brownie never sent. and if we don't blame Brownie on Bush and the Repuke congress who confirmed him in about 15 minutes, who the hell should we blame it on?

and as always with a Freeper, you don't need to prove their allegations wrong, they need to prove their allegations are correct

as him for proof that the Mayor was at fault

[FreedomAngel82]

24. I also remember

that even WalMart tried to get in to bring water but FEMA told them to get lost. They also didn't let Al Gore in with his plane until after Boy George got there first to do his photo-op while people were hurt and dying.

[JuniperLea]

3. I would simply say...

Leave it to the RightWingNutJobs to be overly concerned with the past to the point that they are sitting on their hands doing nothing. NO and many other cities still need help! Where the hell is it? Agencies are STILL NOT DOING THEIR JOBS!

[400Years]

4. Your first email proved him wrong about something now

pound him with it again and again until he admits he was wrong.

Just ignore the bullshit and if you have to respond to it make him give you real links that prove his baseless claims.

The trick to beating a freeper is find one fact and make him admit it and then do it again with another fact.

If he says X

You prove him wrong (like you already did)

The he says Y

Then you say you were wrong about X so don't change the subject.
Given the fact that you were wrong about X makes everything else you say suspect.

Pound him over and over til he begs for mercy.

Don't get caught up responding to his bullshit just stick to your points.
Most everything he'll send your way is a red-herring.

[Seabiscuit]

11. That's an interesting approach and one I've considered, but...

knowing him, he'll see it as a personal attack and get very emotional and angry at me personally and just cause more trouble for the family as a whole. My current thinking is to mix this approach with some documented facts about what really happened with these schoolbuses. But I need documentation first.

[arcane1]

15. that's how they act once proven wrong

emotional and angry = you won, he just won't admit it

but he knows

[DoYouEverWonder]

6. First of all Nagin and Blanco

did evacuate 80% of the people in the NO area. That was a huge success, especially since all the models said they would be lucky to get 60%.

In regards to the buses, they did use buses and many people were evacuated. However, school buses were not suitable because they have no bathrooms and many don't have AC. The traffic to get out of the area was backed up for hours and a couple of people died in route. Nagin stopped using the school buses and asked FEMA to send touring buses. FEMA said they would but of course they didn't show up. The rest is history.

[Ian David]

7. Tell him, "You peope will say or do anything to impose your will on others

[Seabiscuit]

17. I can't say that - unfortunately he's a family member.

Addressing him as "you people" would be received as a vicious personal attack by this guy.

[Ian David]

20. It's meant to be. n/t

[texastoast]

10. Timeline and the real problem with Katrina

http://www.thinkprogress.org/katrina-timeline
Saturday, August 27
FEDERAL EMERGENCY DECLARED, DHS AND FEMA GIVEN FULL AUTHORITY TO RESPOND TO KATRINA: “Specifically, FEMA is authorized to identify, mobilize, and provide at its discretion, equipment and resources necessary to alleviate the impacts of the emergency.”


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9369041/from/RL.5/
A photo on the White House Web site shows Bush in Crawford, Texas, watching Mayfield give a briefing on Aug. 28, a day before Katrina smashed ashore with 145-mph winds. (After getting back from the California fundraiser over the weekend.)


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/01/AR2005090102261.html
In recent years, Bush repeatedly sought to slice the Army Corps of Engineers' funding requests to improve the levees holding back Lake Pontchartrain, which Katrina smashed through, flooding New Orleans. In 2005, Bush asked for $3.9 million, a small fraction of the request the corps made in internal administration deliberations. Under pressure from Congress, Bush ultimately agreed to spend $5.7 million. Since coming to office, Bush has essentially frozen spending on the Corps of Engineers, which is responsible for protecting the coastlines, waterways and other areas susceptible to natural disaster, at around $4.7 billion.

http://www.factcheck.org/article344.html
Our fact-checking confirms that Bush indeed cut funding for projects specifically designed to strengthen levees. Indeed, local officials had been complaining about that for years.


An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

[mcscajun]

13. Check this out from Snopes.com

http://www.snopes.com/katrina/photos/buses.asp

It concedes that the buses were flooded in the parking lot, but goes on to posit what might have prevented their use aside from any supposed city corruption or incompetence.

Use as necessary.

[applegrove]

16. Nagin admitted his grave error in that phone call begging for help.

Seems to me that Nagin's mistake gave Bush gover to "let shit happen". Nobody doubts that if Clinton was in power and a Mayor was out of his league in terms of politics or understanding - Clinton would have found a way .. in an emergency...to do what needed to be done.

In an emergency - you do what has to be done. You find a way.

Nagin seemed to be insulted by the school bus offer - insisting or real buses with bathrooms to take people out of the city. He seemed to not understand why Bush was thinking so small.

So too Blanco. Seems the WH wanted her needs in list format instead of her vague cries for "everything you got".

They are all at fault. And the big difference was that the WH walked around insisting - as always - they never make mistakes - and that was not the time to be "running the permanent election campaign".

Plus the WH admitted that Bush was out of touch with what developed after the storm.

[azureblue]

18. The Bus issue

First the school buses are private, not public, 7 to make it real simple for freepers, there was no one to drive them. the few public buses couldn't do distances- remember NOla has ta-da- streetcars.
Finally, this, and more at:

WHAT BLANCO ASKED FOR: SHE INCLUDED ALL PARISHES
http://gov.louisiana.gov/Disaster Relief Request.pdf

The official White House response to this request is in the press release at http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/08/20050829-2.html

WHAT BUSH ISSUED…HE LEFT OUT NOLA AND ADJACENTS
Statement on Federal Emergency Assistance for Louisiana:


PENTAGON CLAIMS THERE ARE ENOUGH NATIONAL GUARD TROOPS IN REGION:
“Pentagon spokesman Lawrence Di Rita said the states have adequate National Guard units to handle the hurricane needs.”

BUSES:
Peter Pantuso of the American Bus Association said he spent much of the day on Wednesday, Aug. 31, trying to find someone at the Federal Emergency Management Agency who could tell him how many buses were needed for an evacuation, where they should be sent and who was overseeing the effort. This is an association of bus lines (including Greyhound), charter bus companies, and the like. In other words, a group of companies that could, if asked, rapidly provide large amounts of transportation.
Instead the agency had farmed the work out to a trucking logistics firm, Landstar Express America, which in turn hired a limousine company, which in turn engaged a travel management company. Landstar Express is a subsidiary of Landstar System, a $2 billion company whose board chairman, Jeff Crowe, also was chairman of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, one of the nation's premier business lobbies, from June 2003 until May 2004.
Jeff Crowe owns LandStar Express that had a $100million contract with FEMA to provide emergency evacuation services. LandStar Express didn't start working on the New Orleans evacuation until TWO DAYS AFTER Katrina hit. Then they subcontracted to a limo company who subcontracted to a Virginia travel agent...
They were trying to find 300 buses.
Meanwhile Greyhound and another company(name ?) were trying to contact FEMA to offer 3500 buses at cost.
For this idiocy, LandStar's contract has been raised to $400million.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi0509230350sep23,1,1064399.story?coll=chi-news-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true

Looking for buses
The e-mails and quick Blackberry exchanges between members of Blanco's staff demonstrate that her administration was also struggling to find buses and get them to where they were needed.
The first mention of buses among her top advisers comes from Chief of Staff Andy Kopplin, who sends out a missive to many in the executive ranks. "We need you to find buses that can go to N.O. asap," Kopplin wrote.
In an e-mail, Kim Hunter Reed, Blanco's policy director, complained on the afternoon of August 31 that she needs to know where to send the needed assistance.
"I am getting these calls to (sic) and I have buses and water but can't get word on where and how to send," wrote Reed, who in a separate note that same day also said she needed direction from the Louisiana State Police and the American Red Cross.
In her timeline, Blanco noted that the news reports of violence escalating in New Orleans made it difficult to recruit bus drivers to take on the rescue missions.
According to the timeline, Blanco says she learns late Wednesday, Aug. 31, that "a number of the promised FEMA buses are finally crossing into N. Louisiana, 7 or 8 hours away from New Orleans."
The documents also reveal a sense of desperation on the governor's part. On Sept. 3, she penned a letter to California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger asking for help. In it she requests police reinforcements and four helicopters.
The cache of documents contain what appear to be talking points drawn up for Blanco by her staff, possibly in anticipation of her testimony before congressional committees in the weeks after the storm.
Already on the defensive, the talking points can be seen as Blanco's first effort to turn public opinion about her performance her way.
"I requested massive federal assistance in letters to President Bush on Aug. 27 and Aug. 28 -- before the storm's landfall," she said in one. "I spoke with President Bush on Sunday (Aug. 28) and Monday (Aug. 29) and told him I needed everything he had. I believed FEMA officials who told me that every federal resource was at my disposal. I believed this meant every single available resource."
Later on in the talking points document, she responds to a hypothetical question about what she did wrong in response to Katrina.
"I believe my biggest mistake was believing FEMA officials who told me that the necessary federal resources would be available in a timely fashion," she said.”

The Original can be viewed on line at:
http://www.nolarises.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=728
And at
http://www.nola.com/katrina/view.ssf

[Seabiscuit]

19. Thank you all for your responses. I can't spend time here right now but

will get back to you all later.

Thanks again - and keep the information and links pouring in!

[Seabiscuit]

21. Kick for the evening crowd...

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

22. Did you ever ask this freep whether the fact that shrub appointed a

FAILED rules interpreter for Arabian horse shows to be the HEAD of the Federal Disaster response (FEMA) to be any indicator of the quality of the government response, or how seriously the shrub takes the work of governing the country?

[FreedomAngel82]

23. So ask him why

Bush sat on his freakin ass and let people die? Why didn't he do a state of emergency or do anything for them?

[Greyhound]

25. See post #18. n/t

[cynatnite]

26. We shouldn't be doing the work for these freeptards!

They wanna make assumptions, level charges and the same old crap...tell them to back it up with fact. Make them do the research.

This isn't aimed at you, Seabiscuit, but every time someone posts something like this I always think why isn't anyone making these pinheads back up their own statements. We do it all the time and when we're right, the freeptards change tactics and subjects.

Make them do the work when they pull stupid shit like this out of Limpball's ass or wherever the hell it came from.

[Seabiscuit]

27. Kick

[Seabiscuit]

28. One more time so I can locate this over the weekend...