Why Israelis, Iranians, and Lebanese Xtians Get Along HERE

[K8-EEE]

I live in a working-class neighborhood that is mostly populated with Sephardic Jews (there is a synagogue across the street, on my residential street) but also Arabs, both Christian and Muslim (and some who don't practice any religion.) Some are new immigrants but many have been here two and three generations.

Except for an occasional squabble about waivers and building permits etc...I've never seen an angry word exchanged in the 15 years I've lived here.

Why do we all get along so great here, because we are all going by rational laws in a secular society. Nobody is saying "God (or Allah or whoever) wants me to have this land."

My point is that here in No. Hollywood CA, we can all be friends and neighbors, because we aren't on "Holy Land."

Now, I am not religious and it seems to me that there is nothing even remotely "holy" about that whole region, it's a unholy mess and it defies belief that people actually believe God gives a damn WHO lives there.

I just really think the whole problem is RELIGION and by that I mean ALL of the "Holy Land" religions, Judiasm, Islam, Christian. Look at what they have done! And yet people are getting MORE fundie in that part of the world not less. The only hope I see for that region is secularism, seeing as that's not the trend, isn't it rather hopeless?

[Skidmore]

1. Let me be the first to say...

Hallelujah!!! You've got it! If they closed down the "Holy Land" tomorrow, the world would be saved much grief.

[K8-EEE]

3. Yeah...Too Bad We Can't Just Evacuate, Shut It Down

I told that to my Israeli neighbor and she was saying "but oh all the history" and I'm like, yeah but it's a history filled with wars and violence and now we live in the nuke age, we just can't fight about this crap any more. It's a relatively small section that's always in contention, my fantasy is OK everybody just get out, we'll set you up somewhere else.

A fantasy for sure, but the idea that Hezbollah is going to "be destroyed" by this latest bombing campaign is a fantasy as well, not to mention the "fantasy" that we are bombing Iraq into democracy.

[catmother]

2. you are so right. i lived in new york city for most of my life. we

had a mixture of just about every religion and nationality and everyone got along. okay there were the usual disagreements between people, but it wasn't because of religion.


on edit: around the time i left NY (1989) there was some contention between the blacks and koreans. i think it was because koreans were opening businesses in black areas.

[cigsandcoffee]

4. Religion isn't the problem there anymore than it was...

...in Northern Ireland. It's a convenient distinction for the people fighting, and also a "wonderful" exploitative tool to create martyrs and fighters, but it's not a holy war.

Some of it is monetary, some of it is land, and most of it is generations and generations of hate and anger between clashing ethnicities. It may have begun as a war over religion many moons ago, but it isn't one today - at least not at the core.

Religion was a scapegoat in Northern Ireland, and people who can't find comfort blaming anything else in this conflict will take the same approach.

[Skidmore]

5. Then all the arguing over who gets Jerusalem is for what?

The fun of it?

[cigsandcoffee]

6. Tourist dollars, for one.

And land to grow, of course. Land is a wonderful thing to have, and Israel doesn't have very much of it.

[Skidmore]

7. No one has much land over there.

[cigsandcoffee]

9. Thus the hard contention for what little there is.

If they all were Atheists, it would be no different.

[K8-EEE]

10. Manifest Destiny aka "God's Plan" Is Why I Am In CA

If you think of it...wasn't Manifest Destiny our "God wants us to have it" phase? Otherwise I would be typing this in Mexico.

Isn't it odd that nobody's God ever tells them to let the other guy have the land?

[cigsandcoffee]

12. The US did not expand for God.

It expanded because it could. Land brings natural resources and money.

[K8-EEE]

13. Maybe But That Was The Rationalization

My idea is, religion should never be used as a rationale for laws, wars, property rights etc., it's just a scam.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

16. Thanks for the laugh.

The Chewbacca Defense, in all its glory! What a riot!

[cigsandcoffee]

18. I'm not a big Star Wars fan.

So if you want to debate a point, please use a less obscure reference.

[K8-EEE]

8. Didn't They "Deal With The Terrorists" In UK and Spain

And didn't that make things a lot better? I myself am of Basque and Irish descent and found it interesting but not surprising that people in both those parts of Europe seem to sympathise with Palestinians, they even had Palestinian flags in the bars in that part of Spain, that really shocked me because I grew up here and always thought of Palestinians as the "bad guys."

The problem with not having a State is that you don't get to HAVE an army, so natch if you are then oppressed some people are gonna start blowing stuff up. Likewise if you are on the receiving end of a US or Israeli bomb, wouldn't you experience that as being "terrorized?"

I do know that people who were considered "terrorists" are now part of a political party in Ireland, and the Basques also have increased representation, and this did more to quell the violence than "cracking down" did.

[cigsandcoffee]

11. It's not new. The IRA has always had a political wing.

And yes, they have always sympathised with the Palestinians. And like the Palestinians, they had no problem with soft civilian targets like nightclubs and seaside restaurants.

But the majority of folks in the Republic of Ireland despised the IRA, at least in private (and in later years of the struggle). They may not have had time for the British, but thought their homegrown terrorists were nutjobs. Much IRA support came from morons in America, and still does - but probably less so after 9-11.

[K8-EEE]

14. Isn't Israel Hitting "Soft Targets?"

Like, apt buildings and houses and stuff?? I think that is terrorism....I think the idea of taking people's land and then giving them no voice in government and etc etc is a way to make terrorists, they always act like they just spring up like mushrooms, oh the bad terr'rists but actually, that set of conditions is always present, mostly the oppression and lack of hope and self-determination.

I hate the idea of anybody bombing anybody -- but seriously what are the options for people in that situation, people without a state? They can't really HAVE a conventional war.

[cigsandcoffee]

17. They've had statehood offered to them on a silver platter

They've been given Gaza and Bethlehem, among other places. Israel fought their own settlers to get them away from Palestinian territories.

The Palestinian leadership, time and time again, has chosen war over peace. Don't take the responsibility away from where it belongs, and let's not pretend that collateral damage from the targeting of militants compares to setting off a suicide bomb in the middle of a crowded restaurant to maximise civilian death.

The Palestinians have used ambulances as car bombs. Are you really going to defend that tactic as one of the only options open to a poor and mistreated people?

[The Stranger]

29. These are good Neocon talking points.

At first you had me, I have to admit, with the religion talk.

[Recursion]

15. You have enough water

You have enough water in LA (but you didn't always; look at the history of So Cal -- relations weren't always friendly when water rights were still at stake).

There's not enough water and arable land in the Levant for everyone who lives there. So, they fight. That's the difference, IMO. Religion and ethnicity are red herrings, except to the extent that they define the groups for division of water and arable land.

[K8-EEE]

22. So It's Really Overpopulation? But That's Religion AGAIN!

It's the old "go forth & multiply" thing, right? You're saying if there wasn't such a scarce amount of land and water and so many people it wouldn't be so contentious, but as a Catholic isn't it the various religions saying "have as many children as God gives you, He will provide," etc etc. no matter how often we see that that is not true.

[Malikshah]

19. The folks in LA *now* didn't have to deal w/ being forced off their lands

by terrorist tactics, civil war, and the like.

If one neighborhood was suddenly taken over by a wholly different group of people backed by foreign powers and the land was sold right out from under the existing population...and bombs suddenly went off in market places of the existing population set off by the newly arrived folks... well then, things might be different.

Religion doesn't fit into that equation beyond partly justifying why the new folks came in or the existing population wanted to remain...

[K8-EEE]

20. But Isn't That The Whole Thing??

Doesn't the whole founding of Isreal where it is come back to "God wants us to be HERE?" Which the displaced people also think? Then people came to Isreal from around the world and if they were Jewish they were able to settle in expanded areas just because of their religion, isn't that right? I mean how on earth is any peace supposed to come out of that situation, it was a bad idea from the get-go.

[lonestarnot]

23. There will be peace eventually.

[Malikshah]

24. Actually, no. Within the larger Jewish community in Europe and

elsewhere, the Pogroms, massacres, Dreyfus affair, and Holocaust had more of an impact than religious reasoning. As is the case in human history-- religion is the last bastion of those who don't have a rational reason to do something.

[lonestarnot]

21. It is connected with the land, but it's not the land. It is the

religious zealots division.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

25. I don't think it's religion either.

I think its politicians exploiting religion.

[K8-EEE]

26. Well, Still That's Religion....

Giving the assholes something to exploit that people lose all ability to reason about. It's the same thing BushCo is doing now with the Stem Cell Research, you could say, "oh he's exploiting them" but doesn't their "God" make them oh-so-easy to exploit? Turn on any TV evangalist, there are a huge amount of suckers out there sending them money just cuz they ask "for God."

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

27. But it doesn't have anything to do with religion.

It's kind of like blaming racial unrest on melanin.

[K8-EEE]

28. Racial Tensions, Slavery Also Linked To RELIGION

If you ever hear one of those sermons they gave to slaves here in the US about being "good" in this life so they can cash in on freedom in the next life -- a giant con. Even though Christian DOCTRINE isn't racist, it gets twisted around to be that way, the Knights of the KKK are self-proclaimed Christian Soldiers after all.

My point is when different groups of people all think of one sliver of the world as "Holy," that's just a holy mess. I don't see how there could ever be peace there unless people get less religious, which they are not doing...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

30. Sounds like you're guilty of the same thing.

They take something that's harmless (i.e. other people's religion, race) and use it to point fingers and criticize.

You're doing the same.

[K8-EEE]

33. Religion Is NOT Harmless IMO!

How many people have died in jihads, crusades, etc?? Everyone can have their religion, who cares, what I object to is religions setting government policies or states being set up to propagate a religion.

My point is that when people leave "The Holy Land" there deesn't seem to be these divisions, even though they remain religious.

We just can't support this situation forever, can we? It's never really worked and it's not worth a World War, IMO.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

34. Religion is completely harmless. In fact, it's a beautiful thing.

Christianity, Islam, Judaism, they're all beautiful.

[K8-EEE]

36. They Certainly Have Made "The Holy Land" A Beautiful Place!

NOT! I think the worst possible life would be to live in some fundie/orthodox situation in any of those religions. I'm so thankful for my freedom from that!!

[porphyrian]

31. Maybe they should all just bomb Jerusalem then?

Blow the shit out of it, and nobody has anything to fight over any more. I am mostly kidding.

[K8-EEE]

32. I Was Thinking More Like Vacate It

Sorry I'm not in favor of bombing people. \

My friend tells me, "but Isreal is just this little country surrounded by big hostile countries," well, maybe it wasn't a good idea to set it up that way, is my point. "The Holy Land" has always been a brutal place, maybe it's time to clear it out and stop choosing sides and propping it up?

[porphyrian]

35. I'm not really in favor of bombing people, either.

The only people I can think of who might deserve such a fate would be those who bomb innocent civilians, but doing so wouldn't really fix the problem.

Evacuation would just change the problems, not solve them. Who watches over everything while no one's there? Who has jurisdiction over the area when someone breaks the laws? If they can't agree on who should be the custodian now, what makes you think they'll stop arguing about it if they're all ejected? Perhaps you'd be uniting them against a common enemy - you, for banishing them from their holy land.

[K8-EEE]

37. Well People Who THINK IT'S WORTH IT Can Fight About It

Obviously people have been fighting turf wars there since the dawn of time and they have no intention of stopping, but why draw the whole freaking world into the mess?

[porphyrian]

38. I'm not sure they did.

The region has religious, cultural and strategic qualities that appeal to people all over the world. These people would be interested in the region regardless of whether they were fighting or hugging. I think the whole "draw in" thing is simply a political excuse.

[Yupster]

39. Part of it is why people are here

I know a few Iranians, and they all moved here because they didn't want to live in a theocratic Iran. One family was in the Shah's government. Another was in the army.

So why aren't they fundies? Because the fundies stayed in Iran.

Same to a point for the Lebnese. It's estimated about a third of Lebanese are Christians today. But way more than a third of Lebanese in America are Christian. Why? Because snce the Civil War thousands of Lebanese Christians have left Lebanon to come to America to get away from the fundies.

So why would it be a surprise that Lebanese who ran from fundy Muslims and Iranians who ran from fundy Muslime would get along?

Doesn't surprise me at all.

[stepnw1f]

40. ABSOLUTELY

religion is the problem here as well. Freedom from Religion = Freedom of Religion.