Excuse me, but has anyone seen the Lebanese military?

[High Plains]

The Lebanese military is quite conspicuous by its absence these days. What's going on?

Is the military standing aside to let the Israelis try to crush Hezbollah? Has anyone heard anything about this?

I can understand the Lebanese military feeling like they didn't have a dog in this fight, but now the country it is supposed to protect has been under attack for a week. The Lebanese military itself has taken casualties from direct strikes. Will the Lebanese military and government pay a political price for doing nothing while Beirut burns?

It looks like they're in a very bad spot.

[htuttle]

1. I think they're too busy getting the hell bombed out of them to do much

[High Plains]

3. But I haven't heard even one report of anti-aircraft fire. Nothing.

[NNN0LHI]

15. Olly the Shiite units of the Lebanese army are being bombed

That is what some guy on MSNBC was reporting earlier today.

Don

[alcibiades_mystery]

18. Completely ridiculous

They are only saying that because the bombing of the Army barracks have caused a furor in Lebanon. There are no "Shiite" barracks.

[High Plains]

2. Of course, maybe they're just afraid to mess with Israel.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

4. I don't know

I did read somewhere that Hezbollah provided social services for many Lebanese (a different division of the organization, but one that builds support for it). I'm wondering if the Lebanese army are fearful if they go south they'll be fighting on two fronts-the Israelis and Hezbollah.

[demnan]

5. I don't really think Lebanon has control over that part

of its country. It doesn't have a government per se as you and I know it. Lebanon is a community of fractious religious and tribal elements at one time united by a colonial power (as explained to me by a Lebanese man I used to work with).

That probably describes most of the Middle East for that matter.

[Poppyseedman]

6. The Lebanese military is waiting for Israel to finish bombing the

shit out of them and clean up the nasty spot leftover.

Hezzbollah is like the thug down the street that the police would rather have the mafia take care of than get the locals upset about.

[High Plains]

7. I wonder what Lebanese citizens think about that strategy.

Surely some support it, but with the Hezbollah-led Shia being the single largest community in the country, it can't be universally popular. And even people who aren't fond of Hezbollah would probably like to see some of those planes destroying their country shot out of the sky. Or something. Anything. An army that doesn't fight an attacker isn't much good, is it?

[Poppyseedman]

10. lebanese bloggers

http://lebanesebloggers.blogspot.com/

[Laotra]

14. Nope

In case of civil war, half the regular army would side with Hizbollah. And this info is from a Lebanese anti-Syrian and anti-Hezbollah blogger.

Defence of the Southern border is Hezbollah's responsibility, and the 70 000 strong regular army has even poorer air defence systems than Hezbollah. They are just helpless targets.

[Luminous Animal]

8. Comparitivly, they barely have one. (n/t)

[AlamoDemoc]

9. here's a good read on current Lebanon's army situation

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/world/4054122.html

<snip>

The only action Lebanon's army has taken during seven days of Israeli strikes was to fire anti-aircraft guns at Israeli warplanes. During a day of bombardment of Hezbollah's south Beirut stronghold last week, the gun on an army's armored carrier was seen idle, tucked under its cover.

Meanwhile, 20 Lebanese soldiers have been killed and scores wounded, including 11 killed Tuesday in an airstrike on an army base in the south. Most army radar stations have been destroyed.

[MADem]

11. The Lebanese military is a piece of shit, to put it kindly

And a good one fifth of it is HizB'Allah, which means they'd be less than useless at reining in the Persian proxies.

They might be a hair better than the Iraqi military, but that isn't saying much at all.

The government could well fall as a result of this mess.

[High Plains]

12. O renewed civil war. Or both.

Gee, I wonder if Israel and the US thought this through.

[MADem]

13. No, I think that Israel saw a shot at crushing Hizb'Allah, but they did

not plan it ahead of time.

And if they're smart, they'll do just that.

Hizb'Allah is not a warm and fuzzy outfit. They're bastards. They're descendants of the Pasaradan; thugs who enforce THEIR rules and who carry out charming little sentences like hanging teenaged gay boys in the public square. Better not offend God when they're nearby...they're the Party of GOD, after all!!!!

Their widows and orphans funds are nice; but their religious schools for crazyass bastards are nothing to write home about. Their military is chockablock full of disaffected, hate filled sonsabitches.

They want to RUIN Lebanon, and change it from a multi-religious, cosmopolitan country into a crazyass, shi'a-fundie, cover-your-face-ya-hooAh theocracy.

Even if Israel is doing the right thing for the wrong reason, fine with me. Hizb'Allah are a bunch of bastards. They're not a side deserving of cheers.

[Laotra]

16. Hizb'Allah is not a warm and fuzzy outfit.

True, but the rest of your prejudiced description is totally inaccurate. Read the BBC description or Wikipedia for more accurate information.

[MADem]

17. Look, I know those guys. They're BUMS.

If you think they want anything other than a shi'a theocracy in Lebanon, with all of the onerous rules that Iran suffers under, you're smoking something strong.

Prejudiced description, my ass. Those guys are precisely what I said they were. And I rather suspect that the sunni and christian factions in Lebanon would be delighted if they all jumped in the sea.

[Laotra]

19. Read

the sources I recommended, or one of the numerous informative posts on DU (the content of which is confirmed by the Lebanese people I've talked to, Christian, Moslem etc.), and then come back. Until then, buy! :)

[MADem]

20. I did, you might want to look at them yourself

My Lebanese neighbors think they're bastards, and I agree with them.

Your source, not mine:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah

Founded with the aid of Iran and funded by it<7>, Hezbollah follows the distinct Shia Islamic ideology developed by Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, leader of the Islamic Revolution in Iran<10>.

...Hezbollah is considered a terrorist organization by Israel<13>,the United States<14>, the United Kingdom<15> and Canada<16> . The European Union does not list Hezbollah as a "terrorist organization", but does list Imad Mugniyah,<17>,Hezbollah's senior Intelligence officer as a terrorist. The EU also supports measures aimed at disarming the group <18>.

...Some organizations list the official formation of the group as early as 1982, (GlobalSecurity.org, 2005) whereas Diaz and Newman maintain that Hezbollah remained an amalgamation of various violent Shi’a extremists until as late as 1985 (Diaz & Newman, 2005, p. 55).

...The continued existence of Hezbollah's military wing after 1990 violates the Taif Agreement that ended the Lebanese civil war, which requires the "disbanding of all Lebanese and non-Lebanese militias" and requires the government to "deploy the Lebanese army in the border area adjacent to Israel."

...Several reasons have been given by Hezbollah for its continued conflict with Israel. Hezbollah is still contesting Israel's control of the Shebaa farms region, claiming it is part of Lebanon. While Lebanon and Syria support Hezbollah's claim<27>, the United Nations has deemed the region part of the Golan Heights, a Syrian plateau occupied by Israel since 1967.

...In February 2005 the Palestinian Authority accused Hezbollah of attempting to derail the truce signed with Israel. Palestinian officials and former militants described how Hezbollah promised an increase in funding for any occupation resistance group able to carry out an attack on Israeli military targets <34>.

...Hezbollah is an active participant in the political life and processes of Lebanon. The organization has been involved in activities like building schools, clinics, and hospitals.<29>. However, the scope of its operation is mostly military in nature. ...Hezbollah has continued its military operations against Israel, regularly firing Katyusha rockets at Israeli towns and villages. As a political entity, Hezbollah is dedicated to the destruction of Israel.

[Laotra]

24. I have

And therefore do you now agree that this is not fair picture about current Hizbollah:

>>>and change it from a multi-religious, cosmopolitan country into a crazyass, shi'a-fundie, cover-your-face-ya-hooAh theocracy.<<<

[MADem]

25. They are a shi'a outfit that wants to turn Lebanon into a religious state

run by shi'a clerics, who deny rights to homeosexuals and females, who advocate the death penalty for minor offenses, and impose strict Koranic law.

They have as their stated goal the eradication of Israel and the pushing of the Jews into the sea.

So, near as I can tell, they are crazyass, shi'a-fundie, cover-your-face-ya-hooAh theocrats. Theocrats who want to kill Jews, and who make no bones about that.

What do you think they are??? Let's ask the BBC:

...Hezbollah's political rhetoric has centred on calls for the destruction of the state of Israel. Its definition of Israeli occupation has also encompassed the idea that the whole of Palestine is occupied Muslim land and it has argued that Israel has no right to exist.
...For many years, Hezbollah was synonymous with terror, suicide bombings and kidnappings. In 1983, militants who went on to join Hezbollah ranks carried out a suicide bombing attack that killed 241 US marines in Beirut.
...Its popularity with the Shia community - which makes up almost 40% of Lebanon's three million people - was confirmed in the 1992 parliamentary elections when Hezbollah led a successful campaign and won eight seats in parliament.

But it is not popular with all of Lebanon's different communities - the Christians, for example, have accuse it of trying to destabilise the country.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1908671.stm

But let's not just go for quick descriptions--let's see what GLOBAL SECURITY says about them:

Hizballah is dedicated to liberating Jerusalem and eliminating Israel, and has formally advocated ultimate establishment of Islamic rule in Lebanon. Nonetheless, Hizballah has actively participated in Lebanon’s political system since 1992. This radical Shia is dedicated to creation of Iranian-style Islamic republic in Lebanon and removal of all non-Islamic influences from area. It is strongly anti-Western and anti-Israeli.

A very important factor that developed Hizballah was the establishment of the Islamic Revolution in Iran that was led by the Imam Khomeini. This revolution consolidated new concepts in the field of Islamic thought mainly the concept of Willayat Al-Faqih. The revolution also generalized Islamic expressions against the west such as arrogance, the great Satan, hypocrites and the oppressed. Due to that it was only normal for the ideological doctrine in Iran to take root in Lebanon. This tie was very quickly translated on the ground by direct support from the Islamic Republic of Iran through its revolutionary guards and then to Hizballah that was resisting the Israeli occupation. This religious and ideological tie between Hizballah and Iran following the revolution with its stance towards the Zionist entity had a great effect on releasing vital material and moral support to Hizballah. Hizballah’s ideological ideals sees no legitimacy for the existence of Israel, a matter that elevates the contradictions to the level of existence. And the conflict becomes one of legitimacy that is based on religious ideals. The seed of resistance is also deep in the ideological beliefs of Hizballah, a belief that found its way for expression against the occupation of Lebanon....The organization operates against Israel in four main ways:

Bringing terrorists and collaborators through the border crossings using foreign documents
Setting up a terrorist organization inside Israel and in Judea, Samaria and the Gaza Strip
Cross-border operations - smuggling weapons and terrorists
Financial support for Palestinian organizations and groups.

Since 2003 it has been possible to see a trend of increasing cooperation between Hizballah in Lebanon and operational entities among the other Palestinian terrorist organizations, with the accent on Tanzim, Islamic Jihad, Hamas and the Popular Front. This cooperation is particularly evident between Hizballah and the Tanzim and in practice, in recent months Hizballah has served as a kind of "external command" for most of the Tanzim organizations in the territories.

Hassan Nasrallah, the leader of Hizballah, admitted for the first time in public the existence of a Hizballah unit responsible for activities with the Palestinians. He said this on Almanar television on July 19, 2004, after the death of Ghaleb Awaleh, a senior Hizballah terrorist: "… the fallen Ghaleb Awaleh is like the fallen Ali Salah, from the group which dedicated its life in recent years to helping our brothers in conquered Palestine. We do not wish to conceal the truth. We declare it and glory in it. Ghaleb Awaleh today has fallen on the Palestine road. He is a Jerusalem martyr. He is an Al Aksa Mosque martyr. He is a martyr in the fight against the Zionist enterprise… and we will not to abandon this fight and have never abandoned it. We are in a position where we will fight openly and we will fight clandestinely." ...

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/hizballah.htm

[Laotra]

26. Selective quoting

is not only boring but also unhelpfull towards your credibility, creating a suspicion of posters tendency towards islamophobic generalizations. You left this out, which to reads to me that BBC don't consider today's Hezbollah as the baddest fundies there are, as you seem to do, but allows for some shade of colour:

"In the early days, its leaders imposed strict codes of Islamic behaviour on towns and villages in the south - a move that was not universally popular with the region's citizens.

But, despite the early history of coercion, the party emphasises that its Islamic vision should not be interpreted as an intention to impose an Islamic society on the Lebanese."

If Hezbollah does not seek Islamic society (which also come in many shades) through imposing but through democracy, I can respect them at least for that.

[MADem]

27. George Bush said he was a UNITER, not a divider

Did you believe him?

Why do you believe that Hizb'Allah has suddenly tossed off their basic principles? Why don't you entertain the possibility that they are playing to a Christian/Sunni secular bunch who view them with suspicion? I provided you two resources, let me provide you with MORE:

http://library.nps.navy.mil/home/tgp/hizbalah.htm

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/13/hezbollah/index.html

http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=10029

That last link is instructive, one could hardly call them Zionist tools. An excerpt:

One of the main objective of Hezbollah at the time was to spread the Iranian Revolution. Since then, the party has publicly declared that it will suspend its attempts to create an islamic state in Lebanon "because the conditions are not met".

Suspend....not abandon. In other words, like GWB, LIE to get one's way.

These swell people you admire so much also wanted the SYRIANS to STAY in Lebanon, and didn't want the Lebanese people to have a real government (from the same source, again, not a Zionist tool, that Al-jazeera!):

After the assassination of Rafik Al Hariri in February 2005 Hezbollah strongly supported Syria's presence through demonstrations. It opposed the cedar revolution which resulted in Syria's withdrawal. However Hezbollah won a number of representatives during the parliamentary elections of May 2005 and managed to join the government in July 2005 in the name of national unity. Hezbollah still holds a large quantity of weapons and the subject remains extremely controversial in Lebanon.

But hey, believe what you want. I do not support an Iranian-funded, fundie outfit that killed 241 Marines, hanged Col. Higgins, and makes violence, thuggery and murder of Jewish people part of their daily life and mission, with the ultimate goal of a shia theocracy ruling once-secular, democratic Lebanon, and I never will.

[Laotra]

28. Oh, I know the reason

It's demographics. In a decade or couple, the mostly poor and rural Shia, who have a high rate of fertility, will be the majority in Lebanon, so they think they create their version of good society by democratic means. Plus that they found their early behaviour counterproductive.

As for the sidenote, I don't think the "Christian/Sunni secular bunch" or the Druz etc. are that secular. There are many more or less seculars from every denomination, as there are more or less devoted and conservative bunches in every sect. It is wide generalizations and oversimplifications I'm trying speak against.

[Solo_in_MD]

22. Don't forget who bankrolls them

Hezbollah is not capable of supporting itself without money and arms from Syria and Iran. I hate saying this, but Bush was right, Syria is the one who could get Hezbollah to stand down. However its not in their interest to do so. The bleeding is not on their soil, its not their country being ruined. Assad is glad to use a surrogate.

[MADem]

23. Descendents of the Pasaradan

Who were the righteous thugs who ran around Iran robbing people, beating them for their "transgressions" after Khomeini arrived and telling the young girls to cover themselves.

They get a shitload of dough from the mullahs, make no mistake. And if that dough dried up, their little Party of God would be like a Party of GONE....dust in a sirocco wind.

Syria could help, in that they could stop being a conduit for shit. But what Syria really needs to do is lean on IRAN to rein them in, the question is, what sort of accomodation Iran would be willing to make...I can't really see them being motivated at all. They're probably laughing their asses off at the whole sick business...

[ladjf]

21. Or, any military other than the IDF. All this campaign has been is

IDF blasting hell out of anything of value while taking out some citizens in the process. Meanwhile, the TV makes a big deal out of the Hezbollah rockets. While there has been some reported causalities from the rockets, they have done Lebanon and the Hezbollah no good from a strategic standpoint and have provided Israel with an excuse to keep bombing unopposed. This is NOT A WAR. This is a one sided, cowardly "turkey shoot".