I am saddened and disgusted.....

[AnOhioan]

by the narrow-minded self-righteousness of several posters here on DU.

I cannot name names as it is against DU policy...but they know who they are.

If you support Israel completely or support Hamas/Hezbollah completely I would ask that you take a good hard look at the death and destruction occuring in the mideast. The dead are mostly innocent civilians. The sheer stupidity of the leadership in the mideast that permits and fosters these deaths is amazing.

I am so incredibly angry at the leadership there AND the people here who seem to excuse them.

I find I cannot respond in ways these moronic individuals could understand. So I choose my words carefully, so as not to violate DU policy.

Suffice it to say, the posters I am talking about are the type I would expect to find on another msg board that shall remain nameless. I have to wonder if they are here just to cause trouble.

[villager]

1. I have likewise been surprised by the unyielding positions

not against the war and the suffering, as such, but clearly falling into one or the other camp, already consumed by that camp's rhetoric, etc...

[babylonsister]

2. There are lots of trolls here, trying to spike your ire. If you can,

just ignore them. They'll get called out eventually and go away.

[singe]

4. ralph reed, cross your fingers for his demise

Lieutenant Governor
Republican
15% of precincts reporting Votes Percentage

Casey Cagle 24,856 55.2%
Ralph Reed 20,175 44.8%

http://www.sos.state.ga.us/elections/election_results/2006_0718/swall.htm

[PurpleChez]

11. These are the first returns I've seen! Wonderful!

I hope that hypocrite Reed goes down in flames. And let it be a lesson to his thug fundie minions.

[mzteris]

3. what ticks me off is

you can't say ANYTHING about either one without being ACCUSED of something ugly. :sigh:

[Sherman A1]

32. Yes,

I think you and I were both nailed in previous poll/posts by folks more than willing to tell us we knew nothing, but unwilling to discuss the issue or offer alternate ideas.

[mzteris]

46. I get nailed

just for asking questions or pointing out fallacies.

I TRY and understand "each side" - even if I don't agree with their actions. I think if one can attempt to understand WHY someone does what they does, you can make advances in trying to help change the situation.

I tell my boys, if you hit someone, don't be surprised if they hit you back. Hitting back is WRONG - and I don't want YOU to hit or "hit back'. BUT, if you've hit someone, you need to be prepared to face the consequences of A) the other person 'getting you back'; and B) Me.

I also tell them that if their brother hits them, and they hit them back, then THEY're going to be getting in trouble, too - whereas if they'd just let me know, I'd have punished only the one who "started it" - but now, they're BOTH in trouble.

[MissWaverly]

I agree, I was called names I don't care to repeat

People shouldn't resort to name calling when people don't agree. That's what Rush, Ann, Sean
and all the rw pundits do. We need to discuss ideas and strategies for working things out.

[Midlodemocrat]

5. Please consider this.

From someone who has no dog in this fight other than the fact that the death of innocents makes my heart hurt and causes me tremendous sadness.

Some folks might have 'baggage' that they bring to this issue. If a poster was raised in Israel, or raised in Lebanon and subjected to the constant barrage of information about how 'wrong' the other side was, it would surely cause deep outrage at this situation directed at the 'other side'.

I wish, fervently, that we can put the label 'patriotic' to rest forever and instead use the word 'humanist'. I don't care how 'superior' America is globally if we got there on the backs of innocents.

I have been trying very hard to read the threads promoting the 'side' of both sides. I haven't taken sides, publically, and I don't think I will. I don't think there is anything to gain from us beating each other up about this issue.

We, those of us who are true DUers want the same thing. Peace. No more suffering of innocents. No more bloodshed of innocents to make their leaders look good.

[smokey nj]

8. Well said n/t

[dogday]

12. That is the smartest thing I have read to date

on this subject and I am an avid poster and have accumulated 4 posts in the past few days... I would like to see each and every person have a loved one, a precious loved one over there in this hornet's nest we call the middle east. Then I could understand the frustration... My son is in Iraq and I am so fearful as to the escalation of events..

I would honestly like to know who really has a freaking personal interest in this war, really... I don't care who is at fault, all I know is that there is just more danger for my son.. I cannot take a side, I have one side only, hoping that my son comes home in November and gets the hell out of there....

[Midlodemocrat]

17. Thank you, dogday. I think people lose perspective

on these types of things. It would be very easy to make a compelling case for either side, but what doesn't seem to be considered is the 'cost' of war. The innocents.

I despise war. I am an avowed pacifist. I would defend myself and my children if I needed to, but I hope it never comes to that.

Maybe if the leaders took a step back and considered the cost, like the price Cindy Sheehan paid, they would be less likely to think war is the answer.

My mom always said: Old men have always sent young men to die in their wars.

What is to be gained? Is it really worth what is to be lost? I am sure some here will see this as a Pollyanna post, but shouldn't we be striving for this.

:hug: for you and your precious son. I have a 14 year old boy and can't imagine what you are going through. May God protect him and bring him home soon.

[Spazito]

39. well said! n/t

[lastknowngood]

6. An intelligent post about the whole mess who would have thought

n/t

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

7. I Understand Your Sentiment Completely.

In my opinion, anyone who fiercely defends only one side in this conflict is a narrow-minded moron feeding into the same zealous hatred as the two sides fighting are. Though I can understand Israel's frustration with the palestinian attacks, to say they are responding with appropriate force would be sheer stupidity and ignorance. I can understand why Palestinians have some of the hatred they do but to excuse their killing of civilians and brutal suicide bombings would be equally moronic and ignorant.

Neither side is innocent in this and both sides need to learn the fundamental concept of understanding, tolerance and negotiation. All they've ever done is fostered each other's hatred and it has never benefited anybody. It is time for extreme policy change on both sides of this conflict, but unfortunately we both know the solution will not be that simplistic.

But whatever the solution turns out to be, bombing the heck out of each other won't ever be it. So if someone defends one side in this fiercely without real concession, than I agree they are completely moronic.

Peace.

OMC

[PurpleChez]

13. Ditto. I'm a non-jewish member of a jewish household, and...

one of the reasons we stopped going to synagogue was that we couldn't stomach the whole "100% pro-israel, no matter what" shtick that was common amongst the congregation. In college, my jewish friends (born and raised in the US) were among the most left wing people I've ever known, but they supported every atrocity that Israel would send down the pike. I'm certainly no fan of the supposedly secular state of modern israel, but I won't hesitate to admit that leaders of the arab factions have a considerable amount of blood on their hands as well. It's a very effed up situation, which we have only made worse with generations of bipartisan ham-fisted meddling.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

15. I'm Jewish Myself, Technically. But That Doesn't Override My Objectivity,

rationality and common sense.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

9. Situations like this

cause us to kill and eat each other, here at DU. It also reveals whose ox is being gored. As with most things in the world there is no black and white in this. The entire region is bathed in shades of gray.
I'm wondering how many people here, or anywhere in America for that matter, know the history of how Israel came to be, what 'terrorist' incidents took place as it was being born. Of the long, long history of a conflict based, essentially, on the concept of who has the correct Supreme Being.....
:cry: It is so disheartening.........

[driver8]

10. I have to bite my tongue around my father-in-law.

He is VERY pro-Israel and it is a very touchy subject around him.

We were watching the news the other night and Bush came on and was talking about terrorists and I said, "Hey Bush -- take a look in the mirror if you want to see a terrorist."

My father-in-law said, "Bush is a very good friend to Israel and that is all that is important...in fact, it is MOST important."

I had to sit there and keep my big mouth shut or the gates of hell would have opened.

[Clarkie1]

14. Hezbollah is responsible.

If they were not firing rockets into Israel and kidnapping soldeiers, none of this would have happened.

Israel wants to live in peace; Hezbollah wants war.

It's simply not a case of both sides sharing the blame equally...honestly, it isn't. If radical islamists would simply let Israel be, it would be the end of war. But that's not what they want...they want war, and they want the annihilation of Israel.

Even moderate Arab states are becoming brave enough to speak the truth to the terrorists, as evidenced this week. That is historic, and a sign of progress which should give everyone some renewed sense of hope.

[Poll_Blind]

16. I think you just did what I've heard referred to as "self-selection" in...

..relation to the OP.

PB

[Clarkie1]

20. Not at all.

We may debate Israeli tactics in confronting the enemy determined to destroy them, but that does not change the fundamental fact:

Israel does not wish to destroy anyone, they simply wish to live in peace.

If Hezbollah and Hamas stopped terrorizing Israel, there would be peace for all.

As complex as the Middle East situation is, at it's base it is quite simple. One side wants seemingly endless war leading to the destruction of a sovereign state; the other, simply to live in said sovereign state in peace.

[AnOhioan]

23. Simplistic tripe n/t

[Clarkie1]

24. Would you like to elaborate on that or is that your best response? nt

[AnOhioan]

28. OK I'll bite

The mideast conflict is NOT simple.


Israel does not wish to destroy anyone, they simply wish to live in peace.

I believe Israeli citizens want peace, just a s I believe Palestinian citizens want peace.

I believe the Israeli gov't is not interested in a true peace..they want peace on their terms, with the Palestinians restricted to non-viable partitioned land areas.

Why? You may ask? The Israeli gov't fears that a true peace would dilute Israel, therefore making the entire point of a Jewish homeland moot.

If Hezbollah and Hamas stopped terrorizing Israel, there would be peace for all.

Hezbollah and Hamas could disarm tomorrow and there would still be individuals and groups who would resist what they see as Israeli/Palestinian inequities.

As complex as the Middle East situation is, at it's base it is quite simple. One side wants seemingly endless war leading to the destruction of a sovereign state; the other, simply to live in said sovereign state in peace.

I despise Hamas and Hezbollah, but killing innocents merely strengthens those organizations.

If you are not willing to admit that Israel bears equal responsbility for the bloodshed then we have nothing further to discuss.

[Clarkie1]

37. It is not as simple as "equal responsibility"

Israel does not wish to destroy anyone, they simply wish to live in peace.

"I believe Israeli citizens want peace, just a s I believe Palestinian citizens want peace."

Yes, I believe most do...on both sides. However, Israel has tried giving "land for peace" and it hasn't stopped people from attacking them, unfortunately. So your argument about Israel wanting "non-viable partitioned land areas" for the Palestinians more than Israel wants peace holds no water.

"Hezbollah and Hamas could disarm tomorrow and there would still be individuals and groups who would resist what they see as Israeli/Palestinian inequities."

Perhaps so, but the Israeli groups wouldn't be firing rockets into Palestine (using past history as any judge).

"I despise Hamas and Hezbollah, but killing innocents merely strengthens those organizations."

I agree killing civilians strengthens their hand, but doing nothing strengthens their hand even more. We can debate the micro-management of how Israel responds to an aggressor, but that doesn't change the fundamentals.

"If you are not willing to admit that Israel bears equal responsbility for the bloodshed then we have nothing further to discuss."

Thank you for your thoughtful replies to my postings, but we have nothing further to discuss.

[Bobbieo]

42. Does anyone know how General Wesley Clark

feels about the current ME situation? Will the real Clarkie please speak up.

[blonndee]

43. Here you go! Good question.

"Clark stated that Israel’s focus needs to be on Hezbollah, but the problem with the air campaign is finding targets . That is made difficult for Israel because they have limited intelligence on the ground. To Kasich’s question about Hezbollah’s use of sophisticated Iranian weapons, Clark responded that the weapons being used are no challenge to Israel and as such, are terror weapons."

http://www.newshounds.us/2006/07/16/muslim_viewpoints_on_middle_east_crisis_kasich_isnt_interested.php

That's all I can find so far re: the current situation

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Clarkie1]

19. Explain to me how Israel shares culpability.

Take a deep, breath and explain how when one people simply wants to leave in peace, and another group of people want them anniliated, the group of people who simply want to leave in peace share culpability.

[AnOhioan]

22. If you seriously believe that the Israeli gov't has not.....

figuratively used a grenade on a mosquito with this situation, there is no hope for you.

I you can say with a straight face that the Israeli gov't has treated Palestinians fairly, there is no hope for you.

If you think that Olmert has a fuckin clue how to handle the situation, there is no hope for you.

If you think that bombing civilian targets will alleviate terrorism, there is no hope for you.

I must wonder how you feel about Fallujah and others Iraqi cities blown to hell by the US gov't.

Because there is no difference between the US gov't in Iraq and the Israeli gov't in Lebanon. Both gov'ts are doing more to create terrorism than fight it.

[Clarkie1]

25. If you believe that any country in the world

would or should stand idly by while rockets are launched randomly at their civilian population, then there is no hope for you.

If you believe the people and government of Lebanon have no responsibilty to control Hezbollah, there is no hope for you.

If you believe that both sides want this conflict, then there is no hope for you.

If you believe that both sides don't want this conflict, there is no hope for you...

Just using "no hope for you" since that's the phrase you used.

The Israeli government is trying to destroy or at least seriously disable Hezbollah in Southern Lebanon. Hezbollah is not a mosquito.

Bombing civilian targets will assuredly not alleviate terrorism. As I said, the micro-management of the conflict can be debated; unfortunately innocent civilians die in war and war has been declared on Israel by Hezbollah. Israel does not deliberately target civilians; Hezbollah does.

Most importantly, none of this changes the fact that the people who want the destruction of a sovereign state are to blame...and that is not Israel. THAT is what is most fundamental to all of this.

[liberaltrucker]

31. One of the best yet

:popcorn:

[malaise]

36. Indeed

Both gov'ts are doing more to create terrorism than fight it.
Both governments are guilty of state funded terrorism.

[daydreamer]

26. For starters, why did they bomb the Beirut airport

and highways? That's terrorism for me. If KKK lives in Georgia, I would not be entitled to bomb Atlanta airport and call it "self-defense".

[Clarkie1]

27. So that Hezbollah is isolated. To prevent escape to Syria.

And last time I checked, the KKK wasn't firing rockets into Mexico.

[AnOhioan]

29. There is always a justification in your eyes,

Sorry but your reasoning is greatly flawed.

I only hope that in the end, Israel can find a path to true peace....what they are doing right now is only going to hurt them even more in the future.

[Clarkie1]

30. I also wanted to add to disrupt their supply lines.

I too hope Israel finds a path to peace, but unfortuntely it takes two to tango.

[progressoid]

48. Huh?

You say you hope Israel find a path to peace...

Interesting path. That's like GWB's logic of bombing Democracy into Iraq.

Or more simply stated. "My new weight loss plan includes eating a gallon of ice cream, a pizza and a six pack of beer every day. Hope it works."

[AnOhioan]

33. Self-delete

[daydreamer]

35. Are you saying if for example KKK abducted 2 Mexicans,

Mexico would be entitled to bomb US airports? A smart person like you knows that Lebanon is a weak democracy and can't control the Hezbollah.

[rucky]

41. If you taught 5th grade

and you catch one kid beating the snot out of the other, but that kid and a few other kids say they saw the kid on the ground starting the fight, what would you do?

Maybe as an onlooker you'd let it go. The kid got what he deserved. But as a teacher - in a position of responsibility - what do you do?

[dogday]

21. K&R for being sad

about how people have been acting... Thanks for posting this....

[AnOhioan]

34. Those of you that left supportive msgs. Thank you

Unfortunately there was a poster who decided to come in and try to make everyone else wrong.

I am done responding to those who are blind to the obvious.

[DoYouEverWonder]

38. Didn't take long did it?

It is apparently impossible to rationalize in this case.

[rucky]

40. Once the "enemy" is dehumanized...

anything goes.

Once the proponents feel entitled, logic flies out the window.

The hypocracy is so glaring. The Bush rhetoric we've been stupified by now seems okay to otherwise rational DU-ers when applied elsewhere.

What is it about the Middle East that makes everybody crazy? I don't even want to talk about it here, but I feel that I have to.

[LibDemAlways]

44. No one should support any cause out of blind loyalty.

To think that a particular government can do no wrong is incredibly arrogant and foolish. A government is only as good as its leaders, and, as we've experienced in the US in the last six years, poor leadership can be catastrophic.

The actions of both sides in this conflict have contributed to making a bad situation worse. There is apparently no one with any sense in charge on either side, and innocent people are paying with their lives.

[mzteris]

45. New Motto for debacle!

**The actions of both sides in this conflict have contributed to making a bad situation worse. There is apparently no one with any sense in charge on either side, and innocent people are paying with their lives. ***


I think this should be a banner heading. You sum it all up quite well.

[Binka]

47. Thank You For This You Have My Support

Glad you are here! :loveya: