Since people here are so upset with Israel...

[everythingsxen]

perhaps you think that the plan to make Israel a nation was a bad one.

Did you know that there was an alternate plan created during the war which was rejected?

This plan would have given the Jewish peoples the island of Madagascar.

Would you have supported that plan instead?

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Behind the Aegis]

2. are you spamming every Israeli thread with this?

:puke:

[everythingsxen]

7. Yes...

:puke:

It's a great article... it's about 1 step away from saying that the Jews engineered the Holocaust so they could go oppress Palestinians.

[norml]

17. You don't like Vladimir Jabotinsky being quoted?

Why is that?

[LittleClarkie]

25. You know what they mean. It's not that he's being quoted

It's that he's being quoted over and over and over. We get it already. This is something like the 10th freakin' time you've posted it. WE GET IT ALREADY!

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[everythingsxen]

44. Wow, so I am an Israel bot?

I had no idea. I thought I despised Israel's policies. Apparently though I am a full blown Zionist. So what now? Since you know me *SO* well... please, do tell me.

[norml]

62. I wasn't thinking of you.

I was mainly thinking of the situation of trying to get information across.

There are really very few of them who try to get anything they don't like removed.

Dialog is not their goal, getting your posts removed is.

[everythingsxen]

65. I like dialog, it is a good thing...

too bad no one around here seems all that interested in it. :shrug:

As far as getting your posts removed, I have seen an equal number of "ISRAEL BAAAAD!!!" and "HAMAS/HEZBOLLAH BAAAAD!!!" threads. So honestly I have no idea what you are talking about.

[norml]

21. So much information and dialog to suppress

and so few to do it.

Tis so sad.

:nopity:

[LittleClarkie]

26. Could you at least find a DIFFERENT article to spam us with

Really dude. No one is suppressing you. But 10 times is enough.

[norml]

39. Since there seems to be some difficulty in keeping posted anything on

AIPAC, I'm sure I'll have no difficulty finding more articles to challenge the alert hitters.

However, I agree, that's enough for this one for now, and with any luck there'll still be a few of them left by tomorrow.

[Behind the Aegis]

76. So much bullshit..so few to spread it...well...you do have others

...to spread your hate.

[Erika]

8. The Zionists have stretched our support to the limit.

They need to knock off the warring. Or use their own money, not ours.

[Marie26]

18. Ugh

And people wonder why "anti-Zionism" is called anti-Semetic.

[Bonobo]

19. What does Anti-Zionism mean to you, my pot-smoking brother?

[burythehatchet]

45. thanks for posting this

[Slaughtermeyer]

80. It would have been unfair to the people of Madagascar

It would have been unfair to the people of Madagascar, unless they wanted the Jews to come there.

It would have been unfair to the people of Massachusetts if King George III decided in 1770 that the Indians had a raw deal from the white men and the smallpox holocaust and were entitled to a state of their own and declared Massachusetts to be that state, and were entitled to immigrate there and establish their own government and religion there.

That's basically what the British did to Palestine under King George V when they took over Palestine in 1918.

[kiahzero]

3. Wasn't that a plan of the Nazis?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar_Plan

[charlie]

4. Yeah, a super-ghetto

Not a state. Horrific idea, but if implemented, would've likely spared most from the gas chambers.

[Erika]

When the gas chambers were there, we couldn't be found

It was at the same time our troops were told to bomb Germany minus the Kaiser factories.

[everythingsxen]

10. Shhhh

I wanted to see how many people would vote for it without knowing it was Adolf Eichmann's version of the "Final Solution"; I think he planned on running it himself as a little mini-fuhrer.

[AlienGirl]

23. Gul Dukat?

[LittleClarkie]

55. Well ain't you sweet

And that's supposed to prove what exactly?

[jonnyblitz]

12. exactly. I just read this in a book. nt

[Solon]

5. No, because it would have involved the displacement of the people of...

Madagascar, despite what the movie of the same name implies, there are a LOT of people who live there, just like EVERYWHERE ELSE in the world, except Antartica.

Look, to be honest, if Israel was to be anywhere, where it is at right now would have been fine, IF they actually didn't displace the people that already lived there.

[LittleClarkie]

6. I should go to bed

All I can picture is all these Jews roaming around with a bunch of squirrelly cartoon characters.

[Behind the Aegis]

11. You got to move it, move it! She got to move it, move it!

LMAO! :rofl:

[LittleClarkie]

24. EXACTLY!

That's EXACTLY what was running through my head. I just watched the thing on cable last night, and that song has been running through my damn head all day today.

[mmonk]

9. What's that got to do with the current situation?

It's not an option. I believe somewhere in Canada was one. I have no problem with Israel as a nation nor it's right to exist. Why are things always framed in a way that doesn't address some people's concerns that the manner of the reprisals may contain a bit of wrecklessness?

[jonnyblitz]

13. he is trying to trick people into voting for a policy promulgated

by nazi's without them knowing it for some strange reason ...

[mmonk]

28. Sheeeesh. As the son of someone who helped liberate the Nazi

death camps, I find it repugnant in it's intent and insuation.

[burythehatchet]

47. Don't go there. It isn't worth it.

Lack of a substantive argument always triggers these outlandish remarks so that any real debate can be forestalled. It's a common and trite technique.

[mmonk]

82. Hhhhmmm. Trite common technique. Outlandish remarks.

Maybe this thread shouldn't go there.

[Union Thug]

14. It's great what religion brings to the world, isn't it....

For myself, both sides have their fair share of arrogant, fantatical nutjobs.

I've never been so proud to be an atheist.

[bloom]

89. I think people should realize

what the founding father of Zionism said - in 1911. (Your description of "arrogant, fantatical nutjobs" reminded me).

"Our habit of constantly and zealously answering to any rabble has already done us a lot of harm and will do much more. ... We do not have to apologize for anything. We are a people as all other peoples; we do not have any intentions to be better than the rest. As one of the first conditions for equality we demand the right to have our own villains, exactly as other people have them. ... We do not have to account to anybody, we are not to sit for anybody's examination and nobody is old enough to call on us to answer. We came before them and will leave after them. We are what we are, we are good for ourselves, we will not change, nor do we want to." (From Instead of Excessive Apology, 1911)


"Jabotinsky is also viewed by all Jews as being a symbol and founding father of Zionism."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Jabotinsky

____________________________________________

If people want to follow people like that - that is their business - but I don't understand all the apologetics. Jabotinsky said he wasn't apologizing. He intended for Israel to displace that Palestinians and that is what they did. People ought to quit denying it - that's what I think. Whether they want to apologize or not is their business - but I get tired of the lies. And the insistence that we all wear rosy-colored glasses and pretend along with them.

[rucky]

15. So a Jewish State is a given?

I don't support ANY government that's based on a single religion. Jews will be safe in a Constitutional Democracy that protects freedom of religion. Jews are not safe when indigenous people/governments are displaced to make way for Jewish rule.

"The promised land", "the Land of Abraham"...

Yes, there is a theocratic base that advocates exclusive entitlement to the land. That is the foundation of Zionism.

That premise is flawed.

[AlienGirl]

20. What about the right to self-determination?

For instance, the Basques want a Basque state, the Tibetans want a Tibetan state, and so on. Why then are the Jews not allowed to want a Jewish state?

Tucker

[rucky]

27. they are the indigenous people

not to say there weren't Jews in Israel back before it was Israel, but there are also Muslims and Christians, so the premise of one religion rule in that area was flawed from day one.

any government in that strip of land needs to address all of the people who live there - not displace the ones that don't fit the mold.

[AlienGirl]

30. There have always been Jewish people there

Before there were such things as Christians or Muslims, there were Jews in Jerusalem. Whether or not a group is indigenous is irrelevant to their right of self-determination; unless you will write your will to give all your property back to its original tribal owner after you die? Will you, personally, help un-settle North America by taking this small step?

Tucker

[rucky]

38. ...

At the time Israel was created were there or were there not other religions/ethnicities living there?

Israel is about one generation old. Does it surprise you that there's resistance to its formation?

To compare it to something *equally wrong* that happened 300 years ago - much less 3000 years before Christianity and Islam were even started - is unfair. But we definately do not give enough attention to our crimes against Native Americans.

[AlienGirl]

40. I am un-settling in my will...will you join me?

[rucky]

50. Nobody should have to move from where they were born. n/t

[AlienGirl]

54. My plan doesn't require moving

I will at some point own land. When I die, I will simply return it to its original owners. In other words, I am willing to take a small action that does not affect me in life, to give back stolen land.

Oddly enough, whenever I have asked the people who are so upset about the Palestinians' land being stolen to do the same thing, they have declined.

Tucker

[rucky]

66. It's a pretty cool idea, actually. n/t

[burythehatchet]

49. ANd they lived very peacefully and harmoniously

[Laotra]

77. And

white power folks are allowed to want a white state, as they should be. And others have right to disagree and oppose them.

The Jewish Israeli in the peacemovement that I've talked to absolutely recent the idea of "Jewish state", implying de jure and even more de facto subclass of Arab and Druze untermensch. They don't like sectarianism and theocracy anymore than your averadge Democrat.

[JackNewtown]

16. Israel deserved to be created

But Israel should remember why it was created: persecution and remember that in its dealings with Palestinians and now Lebanon. As a leading Israeli once said, Israel was not created to be an occupying power.

[radwriter0555]

22. Modern Man fighting over who's god is the best. Now.. isn't that just

plain SILLY?

Yup.

I can't stand people who want to kill each other over gods and demons... Or is it really all just an excuse for the killing?

[progdonkey]

29. WTF?

So, everyone who is pissed with the recent actions of the Israeli government must implicitly believe that Israel has no right to exist?

I guess you think we Democrats who "are so upset with <the US government>" believe "the plan to make <the United States> a nation was a bad one"?

And then you insinuate that the people here who are against the actions of the Israeli government are Nazis, or would at least prefer the Nazi "solution."

Jesus tap-dancing Christ. :banghead:

[AlienGirl]

31. Many people do believe that Israel should be dismantled

Hez b'Allah believes this. So does Hamas. So does the International Socialist Organization, unless they have changed drastically since I last attended a meeting of theirs. Since there is so much criticism aimed at "Zionists" (a term which is used to mean "Israeli expansionist" but actually means "person who supports Israel's right to exist") it is not unreasonable to wonder whether some of the anti-Zionists here truly support the dissolution of Israel.

Tucker

[mmonk]

33. True. But not everyone who thinks the current action

is a little over the top.

[AlienGirl]

37. I am willing to bet there are DUers who would like to see Israel gone

Not that they necessarily want to see anything bad happen to the Israelis, or to Jews in general, but they would like to see the state of Israel dismantled, and preferably see the Jews go somewhere else.

Do you think this point of view does not exist here? Is the ISO really that unique?

Tucker

[mmonk]

41. I've never made the claim that there isn't.

Personally, I'd like to discuss the current issue concerning Lebanon without it always going back to this topic.

[AlienGirl]

42. The OP here doesn't seem to be referring to Lebanon

The question here is about DUers opinions regarding Israeli statehood, not regarding Israel's attacks on Lebanon.

Tucker

[mmonk]

43. I thought the "upset" part was in reference to the current

situation.

[everythingsxen]

52. I disagree

I think there are plenty of DUers who would like the Jews to be exterminated. They are not true DUers of course, but rather primarily the various infiltrators who have arrived on the scene.

[Laotra]

78. Let's see

IMO the one-state solution, by what ever name, would be the best solution. Does that make me "like to see Israel gone"?

Of course, in the name of peace and realism I don't oppose two-state solution or even limited right of return to protect the "demographics", against international law and UN resolutions, as though morally reprehensible I find that idea.

[progdonkey]

61. yes, but that's not what the OP was implying...

The OP equated being "upset with Israel" with thinking "the plan to make Israel a nation was a bad one."

And it's not just "anti-Zionists" who are upset with Israel. I'm upset with Israel, but the state definitely as a right to exist; no question.

But it wasn't just the implication that being upset with Israel means (or at least predisposes) a person to being for the dissolution of Israel that really pissed me off; it was the further suggestion that those who are upset with Israel would feel more at home with the Nazis.

It's not unreasonable to wonder whether some anti-Zionists truly support the dissolution of Israel, but it's absolutely unreasonable and beyond the pale to imply that being upset with Israel means you'd prefer its dissolution and the transportation of the Jews to an island prison.

[Lilith Velkor]

84. That's to try to trick you into saying something anti-Semitic

I hope nobody tries that insinuating shit in a bar, but eventually somebody will, and then he'll spin the asskicking he gets as evidence of a new pogrom, just you watch n' see.

[WhiteTara]

32. I think they should have been given

a space in Europe. This was their homeland. True justice would have been they would have been given back their homes, possessions and reparations would have been made and the society might have been healed.

But of course, I'm just a dreamer.

[LincolnMcGrath]

34. RICO, We're gonna face extreme peril. Put a bot on this poll!

We'll need to win the hearts and the minds of the natives. Rico! We'll need special tactical equipment.

[LittleClarkie]

46. The private probably won't survive

We must save our monochromatic friend!

Heh.

[Jazz2006]

36. Yeah, just what we needed... another faux Israel/Palestine/Lebanon thread

Enough already, don't you think?

Could you not just join one of the other hundred threads on topic instead of starting yet another?

Sheesh.

[everythingsxen]

48. No, not at all..

After all, of the 30 votes listed, 7 of them think that the Nazi solution was the better one. Quite illuminating.

[mmonk]

51. And the point of all this is? There are people here that

are closet Nazis or think as they do?

[everythingsxen]

56. Pretty much

I have seen plenty of posts and threads over the last few days that... well what's the point. I have already been labeled a "zionist". I suppose maybe I am. I wanted to stay neutral in this whole thing, because I felt Israel had a right to defend itself from constant missile attacks and suicide bombings, but the momentum of DU is clear, Israel has no such right. I always champion the cause that has too few to defend it, so I stand with the "zionists" on this one. (I should note that for causes I champion, the "defend the weaker" role only comes in if it is a morally ambiguous arguement, which to me the Israel/Lebanon thing is)

[LittleClarkie]

53. Not that you labeled it as such or anything

So does that make us Nazis?

[mmonk]

58. I believe he replied upthread

that some DU'ers or infiltrators might want Jews exterminated.

[everythingsxen]

59. *YOU* could have looked it up...

*YOU* could be more aware of history.
*YOU* should already know that the Jewish people have suffered at the hands of nation after nation and *SHOULD* have a right to exist.

*I* asked who supported the mysterious alternate plan. If you did then that's *YOUR* problem, not *MINE*.

[LittleClarkie]

71. Nah. I never voted.

I was too hung up on the Madagascar part.

So if you want people to be more aware, why not inform instead of trick?

[everythingsxen]

74. Why inform when no one wants to learn?

I started a nice reasonable thread before this one, it died a horrible death. I have tried to go for common ground, no one cares. And as of this posting, a little over a third of the votes are for uber-ghetto....

[charlie]

57. Pfft

Positing alternate history to trap unwitting votes for a Nazi proposal is illuminating?

[everythingsxen]

60. Not to trap Nazis...

to trap the ignorant.

[jonnyblitz]

64. you are the ignorant one here

this is pretty pathetic. you pro-war folks are really getting squirrely...

[everythingsxen]

68. Wow so I am pro-war too!

All in one thread I have learned that I am a Zionist Israel bot and I am squirrelly pro-war person!

Wow! I hope some more people can enlighten me as to what I believe!!!!

[charlie]

67. Whaa?

To what end, except to enjoy a little frisson when someone who thinks Israel would've been better off established elsewhere clicks for a Nazi plan? You could've used Uganda, Argentina, Texas, but that wouldn't be so funny, would it?

[everythingsxen]

70. Or someone could...

not fall asleep in History class. Just a thought. :shrug:

[charlie]

72. Oh, bullshit

Add dishonest to the list you've been wailing about. And disingenous as a bonus.

[everythingsxen]

73. How so?

Please, do tell...

[Jazz2006]

63. Even more evidence that

many people here have absolutely no idea what they're spouting off about.

But 100 threads later, that has been more than apparent all along.

No offence intended towards your thread specifically - it just happened to be one that I hadn't yet hidden as a result of being sick and tired of seeing a hundred threads full of posts in which so many people demonstrate that they haven't a clue what they're talking about and proving the old adage that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

I just can't stand seeing so many threads on the same topic full of the same old, same old nonsense... again, not specifically directed at this thread - but to preserve my sanity, I have actually made a point of hiding threads for the first time ever.

So, no offence intended but this one, too, is going on "hide thread" for the sole reason that I can't keep up with the ignorance shown by so many of the other threads and I refuse to be drawn into it by people who haven't a clue what they're talking about.

Edit: typo.

[everythingsxen]

69. A good plan! (n/t)

[Endangered Specie]

75. no offense, but this is a pretty stupid and malicious poll

and the whole nazi connection bit is a fallacy: you are making it sound like the Jews would actually be given the place to run as they please, whereas the real nazis would have forced people there, insisted on running the place, and probably killing everyone there eventually.

you are just trying to catch a few unsuspecting people with this, then maybe grossly play the "look look, jew haters!" card and to perhaps use it as "evidence" in future arguments

:eyes:

[donheld]

79. Let's give the palestinians Texas

It suits me fine.

[originalpckelly]

81. Actually, I wouldn't mind if they moved to America, we won't try to...

destroy them every chance we get. Take the reverse of the fox guarding the chicken coop. The chicken is in the fox den. (Here I don't mean to imply anything more than a wanted target for the foxes.)

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

83. Even some Zionists favored places other than Palestine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

Before 1917 some Zionist leaders took seriously proposals for Jewish homelands in places other than Palestine. Herzl's Der Judenstaat argued for a Jewish state in either Palestine, "our ever-memorable historic home", or Argentina, "one of the most fertile countries in the world". In 1903 British cabinet ministers suggested the British Uganda Program, land for a Jewish state in "Uganda" (actually in modern Kenya). Herzl initially rejected the idea, preferring Palestine, but after the April 1903 Kishinev pogrom Herzl introduced a controversial proposal to the Sixth Zionist Congress to investigate the offer as a temporary measure for Russian Jews in danger. Notwithstanding its emergency and temporary nature, the proposal still proved very divisive, and widespread opposition to the plan was fueled by a walkout led by the Russian Jewish delegation to the Congress. Nevertheless, a majority voted to establish a committee for the investigation of the possibility, and it was not dismissed until the 7th Zionist Congress in 1905.

In response to this, the Jewish Territorialist Organization led by Israel Zangwill split off from the main Zionist movement. The territorialists attempted to establish a Jewish homeland wherever possible, but went into decline after 1917 and were dissolved in 1925. From that time Palestine was the sole focus of Zionist aspirations. Few Jews took seriously the establishment by the Soviet Union of a Jewish Autonomous Republic in the Russian Far East.

[Onlooker]

85. Israel is the product of Colonialism and collective guilt

The west, humiliated by the failure of its own, acceeded to Zionist demands and allowed them to assume control of Israel. Clearly, if there was to be an Israel anywhere, it should have been in a part of Germany, but of course western culture would never have tolerated that. That said, now that many people have been born and have grown up in Israel, they have as much right to that land as anyone. Putting Israel in Madagascar would have been even more insane than putting it in the Middle East.

[mmonk]

86. Wow.

It's up to 17 votes. Is that to spite some of the arrogant self-righteous people here or do people really think the Nazi/Madagascar plan was a good one?

[everythingsxen]

87. It's now at 18....

and who knows if it is spite or if it's what they actually believe...

After some of the comments made in this thread and others though....

[mmonk]

88. You may be onto something.

[booley]

90. weren' t there already people in Madegascar?

Not sure how displacing a different group of people would have helped.

[everythingsxen]

91. It doesn't really matter...

I was just seeing how many people on DU would have preferred a Nazi Solution. Apparently 1/4 would.

But that was the OP. Now this thread is about psychics and the omniscient telling me what I think and feel.

[lostnfound]

92. Locking

Despite possible educational value, poll seems to be attempt to trap or trick members into being lumped together with pure evil, frankly.

It's run its course.