Does Lebanon have a right to defend themselves?

[kentuck]

After all, it is they that are being invaded. What weapons do they have a right to defend themselves with? Just as the US was the aggressor when Bush invaded Iraq, Israel is now the aggressor when they invade Lebanon. What rights do the people of Lebanon have to defend themselves against an invincible and stronger aggressive nation?

[spanone]

1. Lebanon gives very little money to the American political system.

Hence....

[bryant69]

2. They don't have the power to so it's a moot point.

Lebanon isn't really a player in this drama; they didn't instigate this (Hezbollah did). Kind of sad.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Robbien]

3. Lebanon doesn't even exist in the news media

It isn't being attacked, Hezbollah is. Bombs are not dropping on citizens of Lebanon. They are being dropped on Hezbollah.

They are playing around with semantics while the citizens of Lebanon are being killed.

[TahitiNut]

16. As over 500,000 Lebanese citizens have fled their country already.

Imagine. Two IDF troops taken as POWs and it becomes a humanitarian disaster. :eyes:

[mmonk]

4. Yes, everybody does,

they just don't have the ability to stop things, they can only ask.

[DemFromMem]

5. Sure, kick Hizbollah out and take your country back

Between the Syrians and Hizbollah, this country has been hijacked by extremists. The Lebanese deserve a break and blaming Israel for cutting out this cancer on both Lebanese and Israeli security is a mistake.

[manic expression]

6. Not only is that impractical,

it is unreasonable.

They are more than right to blame Israel for invading them and bombing them, or harassing them when they aren't bombing or invading them. Hizbollah can't be the cancer if it's Israel which is responsible for unending atrocity.

[WinkyDink]

8. Please. Hezbollah is in the Lebanese PARLIAMENT. Lebanon

bears full responsibility for the allowance of this avowed Israel-destroyer to have ANY legitimate power.

[KittyWampus]

11. And NeoCons are in the US Presidency, Federal Govt., Congress etc

and how hard is it to excise OUR OWN CANCER?

We've been trying since at least 2000.

[WinkyDink]

28. The comparison argument would be whether another nation ought to

attack the U.S.
And maybe one should.

[mmonk]

14. Too simplistic (full responsibility).

[Laotra]

21. Please

Since when responsibility means responsibility to die - or kill? Your post is the opposite of responsibility, it is an apology of death-cult.

[manic expression]

41. Not really

if people voted for them, why should they be denied office? Secondly, the culprit in this conflict is clearly Israel and not Hezbollah, as the response can never be sanely justified and the "original" act was derived from Israel's actions in the first place.

No one is responsible for Israel's wrongdoing except for Israel.

[GrouchoMarxist]

10. Lenin Himself Denounced Islam

Hey Mr. Che: If you're going to position yourself as a leftist then get your facts straight. The left has never supported the supersititious, woman-hating, child-abusing Islamists. Even Lenin denounced them. So did Mao. Trust me, if they ran this country, liberals like you and me would be the first to get cooked. Ask the trade unionists in Iran. Let the Israelis do their thing. HezBully needs a residential treatment center for toxic religious addiction, not a pat on the tush and more support from the American left.

[Laotra]

24. International socialists

are one major part of the Respect Coalition in England, a coalition of moslems, socialists and other anti-war people. You don't build such coalition by being anti-Islam but by respecting plurality and the values that unite us.

Our rejection of patriarchal cultural values, which are not unknown among other cultures besides Islamic ones, does not mean that we could not share and work together with those aspects of Islamism that reject capitalistic values and defend humanistic values.

[Bretttido]

29. Buh bye xenophobe

The idea that all "leftists" must agree on all positions, including those of a hundred years past, reaks of the common-day righty republican thought process.

[Laotra]

31. Well said n/t

[manic expression]

42. I disagree

Hey Mr. GrouchoMarxist: let me first point out to you that not all leftists think alike. Do not be so foolish and mistaken as to put a very vast and diverse expanse of political thought into any sort of box. Leftists fought to the death against the Red Army in Russia, leftist groups didn't get along during the Spanish Civil War even when they were on the same side.

I ask you, what are you trying to say? That Islam is bad? Let us ignore the fact that such a statement is blanketed and unnecessary. Even if you have no respect for Islam, you must have respect for the decency and rights and wellbeing of Muslims. I don't care if the group which stands against the injustices of Israel is Islamic or otherwise, as long as they are standing against oppression. Oscar Romero and Father Hidalgo come to mind as individuals with whom I disagree on theology and religion but with whom I completely agree on common cause.

The Israelis' "thing" is ethnic cleansing, theft of land, murder and worse, and I will never stand by and let that happen. The fact that Hezbollah is Islamic is meaningless and insignificant in the context of things, as they are fighting against some of the most ominous forces of wrong today, and that is infinitely more important than their religious convictions.

True leftists support those who are oppressed, regardless of their race, gender, class or religion. I don't care if you have no respect for Islam, I don't ask anyone to, I ask that they see what is right and what is wrong, and what is wrong is what these Muslims are fighting.

"If you tremble indignity at every injustice, then you are a comrade of mine"
-Che Guevara

On edit: as others have said, Islam should not be scorned. I dealt with why religion does not matter in this context. However, you should not have such myopic and ignorant views of Islam at all. Islam and Muslims deserve respect.

[DemFromMem]

52. Go away

Hey Mr. One Post - You can go back to Free Republic. I'm a regular pro-Israel poster here and can tell you that I'm completely offended by your message. And if I am, I can promise you everyone else is. I've spent a chunk of the last couple of days spreading the message that anti-Semitism is completely unacceptable on the left and that folks who attack Jews and Israel are mimicking the right's treatment of Muslims. You've just provided the perfect example of what we DON'T want to become.

[elias7]

12. what unending atrocity?

What unending atrocity upon Lebanon by Israel are you referring to?

[manic expression]

43. Well,

you could read the history of Israel and its relations with Lebanon. Just look at Sabra and Shatila.

[mmonk]

13. Sorry, but Hezbollah bears responsibility for current shelling.

[manic expression]

44. No, it does not

anyone who objectively looks at the situation can see this.

[mmonk]

45. So they were just sitting there and all of a sudden

Israel started shelling Lebanon?

[manic expression]

47. First of all

The people who have been murdered by Israel WERE just sitting there when Israel started attacking Lebanon.

Moreover, the actions which led to the shelling were not unreasonable. The shelling, however, was unreasonable. What Israel has been doing in the region led to the original actions, and that must be taken into account.

[mmonk]

48. What is Hezbollah's interest in Israel?

[manic expression]

49. If you would look at the situation

that much would become clear. Their interest is opposition, one could say.

[mmonk]

51. Which makes my point.

I endorse a ceasefire myself.

[Robbien]

7. Tell that to the men, women and children who have been bombed to death

by the US funded bombs dropped on civilian targets.

Just like a BushCo ally to drop bombs on civilians while screaming "war on terror". BushCo does it so why not its friend the Israeli government.

[KittyWampus]

9. Cutting out Hezbollah isn't easy- just like cutting out the NeoCons isn't

easy. Especially, when a core of extremists support both groups and both groups are willing to use loathsome tactics to maintain their grip oin power.

[slaveplanet]

15. yep, this is really the pretext here

The Lebanese have no more chance of kicking Hezbollah out than the Israelis did, who tried already for something like 18 years and failed.

[DemFromMem]

18. So just accept it then?

And let the Lebanese and Israeli people be held hostage to these thugs for the next 50 years. I'm in favor of a UN force moving in after Israel has taken out as many of the weaponry targets as possible. Israeli occupation ain't in the cards and I agree with you that this would likely be a failure.

[KingFlorez]

17. Get some sense

Lebanon and Hezbollah are not the same thing

[DemFromMem]

19. That was precisely my point

Israel has no beef with Lebanon. It's beef is with Hezbollah. When either the UN, the Lebanese Army or the Israelis get Hezbollah under control, the Lebanese people will be safe.

[KingFlorez]

22. Lebanon can't control Hezbollah

They can't make them stop doing the things they do, because they don't have the resources.

[DemFromMem]

37. That's why they need the international community to help them

But the Lebanese need to make it clear they want the help.

[Laotra]

26. But

they are also not separate thing. Things are not black and white, with us or against us does not work but causes only more suffering.

We are not separe, as long as some sentient being suffers, I suffer.

[Tesha]

33. Sure, America, kick out the Republicans and take your country back.

> Sure, kick Hizbollah out and take your country back

Sure, America, kick out the Republicans and take your country back.

Easy, right?

Tesha

[Hippo_Tron]

36. Actually, that seems like a somewhat practical long term solution

But right now the Lebanese government is in no position to deal with Hezbollah. I think that Israel should agree to case-fire if Lebanon agrees to try and control Hezbollah. Naturally we'll probably end up doing what we do best. Supplying the weapons.

[DoYouEverWonder]

38. We shouldn't talk

If you notice, we haven't done a very good job of getting rid of Bush.

[Freddie Stubbs]

20. Lebanon can't even police its own people

If it could, it wouldn't be in this situation.

[Joe Fields]

23. Why didn't they defend themselves against Hezbollah?

Israel had pulled out of Lebanon years ago, and was willing to live in peaceful co-existence with its neighbor. Hezbollah co-opted the southern half of Lebanon, and the Lebanese government allowed for it to happen. I frankly think that the Lebanese government wishes now that it had done more to quell the Hezbollah build up. They are really not interested in taking on the Israelis.

[Bretttido]

32. Just as we should have quelled the extremist right-wing buildup in the US?

You can't quell a buildup of a political party if they have been voted in by a segment of a population... it would cease to be a democracy.

[DoYouEverWonder]

39. Why have we let

fundie radicals take over the USA?

We should be the last to cast stones at this point.

[liberalpragmatist]

50. Hezbollah is VERY powerful

If you read the Lebanese blogs, read the Lebanese papers, it's clear that people there were fed up with Hezbollah as well but nobody wished to try to disarm it by force; Hezbollah's influence was in fact waning and people were openly discussing disarming the group but a rapid disarmament would have resulted in a re-outbreak of civil war. Nobody in Lebanon wants to see that again.

[Yupster]

53. It reminds me of Cambodia

where the North Vietnmaese Army used the bordewr region of Cambodia near Vietnam as a refuge to shell US soldiers and invade South Vietnam.

The Cambodian government tolerated it because they had little choice in the matter and they thought it could bring themselves down if they picked a fight with the much more powerful North Vietnamese Army.

Eventually a Cambodian government accepted US aid to try to evct the NVA from its land. The result was tragic as we eventually pulled our aid and the Cambodian Army was defeated though it fought incredibly hard and well.

When Phnom Penh fell the entire population was marched into the countrysides by the Khmer Rouge conquerors, and all members of the old regime were killed to the lowest soldier. Today it's called the Killing Fields.

One problem with US aid is that we train armies to fight like we do with technology and firepower. It's a very expensive way of fighting. Then we take away the aid.

[Igel]

25. Lebanon was afraid of the bloodshed that defending

their integrity against Hezbollah would entail. They wouldn't try to stop Hezbollah from importing Syrian and Iranian weapons.

They weren't willing to pay the price for being responsible for their sovereignty. Stability was more important, even at the risk of Hezbollah's constant trickle of provocations in the south.

They didn't bother to ask for outside assistance. It might be destabilizing.

The tree of stability has born fruit.

And Signora simply wants it all to be the way it was before.

[Laotra]

30. A country

with tens of thousands Palestinian refugees and who see the open wound of occupation fester day by day under the Israel oppression, don't have the luxury we enjoy in our daily lives, not to care about Palestinian suffering, and whether right or wrong, it is understandable that many if not most think that at least Hizbollah is trying to do something to help fellow Arabs.

We may disagree with those Lebanese people and with good reasons, but we should not be blind to the underlying reasons and fall into the trap of demonizing blame games against any side, but to create more understanding and work to find best ways to correct the wrongs that cause the suffering and deep feelings of injustice that tend to express themselves in most unfortunate ways.

I think the Israeli excuse that "we don't negotiate peace until last terrorist on Earth is dead" is far from the best way.

[ladjf]

27. Lebanon has the right to defend itself but not the might.

I can't imagine what Hezbollah had in mind when it decided to take out the Israel tank. Didn't they
realize that they were jeopardizing the lives and infrastructure of the whole of Lebanon? Then they start the barrages of bottle rockets that cause some damage but give Israel an excuse to pursue the destruction. They are not going to defeat Israel by killing two dozen civilians, or a thousand for that matter.

[leftchick]

34. apparently not

:(

[Roy]

35. Is it only countries that can't defend themselves get attacked....

And occupied?? Is this the purpose of imposing years of sanctions on them.

It seems the only message that's sent in recent history is that every country should arm itself to the teeth with traditional and especially nuclear weapons. Otherwise, invasion is eminent, especially those countries with natural resources such as oil.

Is the only road to peace the building and stockpiling weapons of mass destruction?

If I was the leader of any of these small countries, my biggest concern would be, not joining any alliance of nations, but the development or purchase of as many nuclear weapons as possible, for it really seems that the only safe country is the ones that possess them.

[im10ashus]

40. Loaded question.

Yes, they have a right to defend themselves. But they should have defended themselves against Hezbollah and not allowed them into their government.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

46. Sure. Just like Grenada did.

Mighty Lebanon has the wherewithal to defend itself against weakling Israel, just as SuperPower Grenada did against the pitiful USA.