Americans criticizing Israel - Pot, Meet Kettle

[jackstraw45]

Time to turn the mirror.

While our OWN government has killed tens of THOUSANDS of Iraqis over the past few years, instead of spending ALL your energy stopping that, you are venting your frustrations at ANOTHER country. Turn on Air America and you hear diatribe after diatribe condemning Israeli aggression against civilians.

Uh...what country has the United States attacked that DIDN'T have severe civilian casualties? Iraqi babies and children have been slaughtered.

AND, what right do you have for criticizing Israel when you live on land taken from the native american tribes?!?!? At least the Jews WERE in the land of Israel for thousands of years. Our ancestors just came in and violently took the land you're comfortably living on.

Wondering when all the anti-Zionist folks are planning on ceding back their lands to tribes...

[MoseyWalker]

1. Criticize both?

seems to be the correct answer here.

[Mandate My Ass]

4. yup

but then you'd be called a hezbullah-loving anti-Zionist.

I'd just like to point out that the US has been bombing the hell out of Afghanistan for five years and the Taliban is stronger than ever and recruiting like crazy. So, without coming down as pro or anti for either side, I'd just like to say for the record that what Israel is doing has been done by us in two countries and it hasn't worked in either. Quite the contrary.

[Bretttido]

17. I criticize both proudly.

The criticism of one does not translate to the approval or apathy of the other. People can multi-task; multi-tasking is cool; I am cool; yay me!

[Ariana Celeste]

31. Absolutely!

I absolutely agree, and that's what I do. It wasn't right what the founders of our country did, and America has committed many despicable acts since. (If you haven't, check out Stephen Kinzer's book "Overthrow: America's Century of Regime Change From Hawaii to Iraq"... Really opened my eyes to a lot of events that weren't taught in history class when I was in high school)

[Jacobin]

2. Okay:

Here's some smallpox infected blankets>>>>>>>>>>>give'em to the Palestinians.

Feel all better now?

[cali]

5. Textbook example of an ad hominem attack

You must be sooo proud!

[Jacobin]

8. I didn't suggest

that you use the blankets. Nor did I personally insult you.

Before accusing someone of using an ad hominem attack, it might be a good idea to know what that means first.

On edit: To save you the trouble of looking it up:

An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin, literally "argument against the person") or attacking the messenger, involves replying to an argument or assertion by attacking the person presenting the argument or assertion rather than the argument itself. It is usually, though not always, a logical fallacy

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cali]

11. Could you be any more disingenuous? n/t

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

3. Two problems with that.

1) Many of us DO have problems with the taking of land from Native Americans.
2) U.S. expansion took place during an historical period of colonization. Israel being given Palestinian land took place well after it was thought that colonization was immoral.

[The_Casual_Observer]

6. The indian genocide makes it all okay then. I feel better now.

[question everything]

7. Thank you.

Wonder how long it will take for this thread to be locked, as others that support Israel were, but not the ones that praise Hezbollah.

[Minnesota Libra]

13. Yea, and you go over to FR and all you'll get there is...........

....complete support for Israel. So one side of the political scale totally supports Hezbollah/Hamas/etc, with no admission that Hezbollah/Hamas/Arabs/Muslims might just hold some responsibility for all this. Then at the other end of the political scale there is total support for Israel with no admission that they might hold some responsibility for all this. Neither side sees where they are being unreasonable, only the other side is unreasonable. :wow:

[Bluerthanblue]

14. this sounds sickeningly familiar-

like the pResident puking out the words "You're either with us, or with the enemy"-

How about both are WRONG-?? but the ones we have strings attached to- namely the US and ISRAEL- are the ones we SHOULD have some 'voice' in- some responsibility to give our input too-

I don't understand the disconnect-

We are all, HUMAN BEINGS - that should be enough to cause us all to scream ENOUGH!!!!

but that would mean abandoning a sense of 'entitlement'-

this world is so screwed

[rucky]

30. As long as all these threads are open...

why don't you post some links?

[question everything]

33. Here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1668242

[Bluerthanblue]

10. most of us here have been screaming about our 'black pot'-

at least as long as I've been at DU- which is a fairly long time-

And YES- I do feel that we are responsible for the deaths of countless innocents- Iraqi's , Afghani's, Vietnamiese, NATIVE AMERICANS, African Americans, and countless other peoples that I can't begin to list here-

Do I believe that what America has done is RIGHT???? HELL no- does the fact that I happen to be a person born in America, a country which has committed atrocities I had no knowledge of, or control over mean that I am not allowed to say that killing people indiscriminately, AND very calculatingly with weapons my earnings have bought and paid for, is WRONG????

I sure as hell better not mean that- Israel is DEAD WRONG- AMERICA is supporting and encouraging them- and AMERICA IS DEAD WRONG in this, in our war on 'terra' on so very many of our escapades-

What would you rather Jackstraw????

That people sat back mute, filled with historic 'guilt'- and just let the carnage continue????

fuck that-

you can put your bullet through my head if you don't want me to speak- until then, I'll speak out for what I believe to be RIGHT- and JUST- and I'll go out speaking the truth-

life in a world that believes only 'some' people have value is no life at all-


ALL LIFE is precious- or none is-
no ones 'rights' are more important than anyone elses-

vengance be damned.

blu

[cantstandbush]

12. Another "nice try" but stick with REAL issue now. Israeli aggression.

It is so transparent to try to set the debate like this. But it ain't working here anymore.

[liberal N proud]

15. Why is it when anyone criticize Israel they are immediately called

anti-semitic or attacked right back.

First of all, I was born here in the US and took no land from anyone. That was done several generations before I was swimming upstream.
Criticism falls were it must, these people have been fighting since the land was given to the Jewish people, in the middle of the people they hate and that hate them. Enough hate to make sure the world is never at peace.

My criticism is aimed at the US government who unlike the rest of the world has sided with Israel on this.

[Cerridwen]

18. "the land was given to the Jewish people" - here's a question

for those in the know, please.

By whom was the land given? Governments? Corporations? The people on the land? Who was living on the land at the time is was given? Anyone? No one? If anyone was living on the land, were they consulted? Did they have a say as to what would happen to their land? Why or why not? How was it decided what land was to be given? It was barren? It was fertile? It had/didn't have oil? It did/didn't have the "right" people on it? Just 'cuz they could?

In short, did the way in which Israel became a state influence what has happened between factions in the ME? If so, why was it done in the way in which it was done? Who benefited? Who didn't?

Seriously looking for knowledge, here.

[liberal N proud]

20. Here is a couple of links related to Jewish state of Israel

Israel: Birth of a Nation

Immediately following the proclamation of Israeli statehood, on May 14, 1948, armies from Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, and Iraq declared war on the new nation. Arab soldiers overwhelmingly outnumbered the Israelis, and their invading forces were equipped with superior weaponry.

http://www.jhvc.org/video_library/index.php?film_id=28

Statehood and Expulsion
1948

What was the Arab reaction to the announcement of the creation of the state of Israel?

http://www.cactus48.com/statehood.html


How was the 1948 Israeli Declaration of Statehood proclaimed?
At 4:00 P.M. in the afternoon of May 14, 1948, as the British made final preparations to depart from Haifa, David Ben-Gurion, standing under a portrait of Theodor Herzl in a museum in Tel Aviv, proclaimed the state of Israel."
http://www.israelipalestinianprocon.org/bin/procon/procon.cgi?database=5-H-Sub-Q15.db&command=viewone&op=t&id=7&rnd=762.8142766976056

[Cerridwen]

21. Thank you! Off to read for a bit. :D

Also will bookmark for future reference.

[Cerridwen]

24. Any links to information from the "other" perspective

prefereably written by "them" rather than the Israelis?

Or better yet, a 3rd party description by some who have no "dog in the show."

The Romans said a lot of things about the "Celts," too - I'm not sure they were accurate descriptions given their bias.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

26. Because such hateful labeling is very effective at ending debate.

No one wants to be labelled an anti-semite, and as such, people avoid vocally supporting Palestinian rights altogether. The pro-Israeli side has abused a very serious issue in order to gain politically. Sound at all like what Republicans do with 9/11 and terrorism?

[bowens43]

16. I guess you haven't been paying attention.

Most americans also oppose the actions of the US in Iraq.

[Mir]

19. Tell ya' what,

When Israel gets rid of its ILLEGAL settlements, gives the land that was ILLEGALLY stolen from the Palestinians in the West Bank - EVERY LAST INCH OF IT -, allows the two plus million Palestianian refugees in camps in Jordan, Lebanon and Syria back into their rightful lands within the state of Israel proper and recognizes a geographically contiguous Palestinian state with East Jerusalem as its political capital, then we will all lobby Congress to give back every square inch of land that was taken from the Native Americans. Does that sound fair to you?

And BTW, the Palestinians were in that land (that's why it is and always has been called Palestine) before the Jews got there, while the Jews were there, after the Romans kicked their asses out, for 2,000 more years during the diaspora on up to today. So there's no question whatever whose land it is, despite what some ancient fairy tale book says.

[mmonk]

22. I can criticize anyone I please. My government or someone else's

and I do.

[Bretttido]

23. Are the Israeli's protesting in the streets anti-Zionist as well?

:rant:
"WE" didn't take this land from native american tribes. Some assholes a few centuries ago did. My ancestors didn't even live in this country until the 1920's. I'm not going to live my life feeling sorry for shit I didn't do. I'm not going to refrain from any and all criticism of others because of shit that people did centuries ago. And I'm not going to look at a picture of early colonization and trick myself into believing I'm looking into a mirror so that I feel bad about things I had no control over.

[Ariana Celeste]

32. Oooh, good question.

:hi:

[rucky]

25. Nobody should have to move from where they were born. n/t

[noonwitch]

27. I always thought that Native Americans and the Palestineans had similar

situations. We did give Native Americans an almost monopoly on legalized gambling, which seems to be benefitting a lot of them these days. The reservations in Michigan have changed a great deal-new housing, new schools, the people have money to spend. We have finally done something right by them, after all this time.

[CuteNFuzzy]

28. what you do not recognize

Is that both are criticized - yet there is no debate regarding the crimes and atrocities in Iraq (at least not here or amongst the Left generally).

The difference being that Israeli aggression is actually defended and justified whereas not many on the left defend and justify what's taking place in Iraq.

See?

[The Stranger]

29. The analogy is not with the U.S. -- it is South Africa.