Both hardcore Zionists & fundamentalist theocracies are intolerable.

[zonkers]

And the fact that G8 countries could not reach some sort of consensus statement over the past week about this recent eruption is pathetic. Shows you how rudderless, desensitized and self centered world leadership really is.

[mmonk]

1. the situation is this.

Modern Israel has been in place since 1948. Isn't it about time someone came up with a way for people to accept it and then move to constuctive interdependent living with basic justice for all in the area? I understand people were displaced and put in a reservation type situation but can't nations seek to make something work along with the parties involved and we can have some sort of ordered and peaceful world? I know, sounds pie in the sky. Just tired of all the killing and a world teetering on war at every turn.

[maxsolomon]

2. please add the rightist christian government of the US to your list

monotheism isn't really working out so great at this point.

[DemFromMem]

3. I'm a hardcore Zionist

so I guess I can't be tolerated. I think Israel has a right to survive. Pity me.

By the way, Zionism doesn't mean expansionism beyond the 67 borders. It simply means belief in statehood for the Jews in our ancestral home. One can be a Zionist and against occupying the captured territories (which would be me). That's a subtle point that may be a little too deep for some people.

[Laotra]

7. I don't support intolerance

But I disagree with Zionism as political philosophy because I don't believe in jewish or any other exceptionalism, but in liberty, egality and fraternity, and thus don't consider a state based on "demographic" principle is in accordance to the pluralistic values most(?) progressives think states should abide to.

I think one state model would be better, but I accept zionism as fact of life that will not go soon away anymore than Arab nationalism and Islamism, so compromising my principles in the name of realistic chance for peace I support also the two state model and accept zionist's "right" to defy international law and limit the right of return to protect the IMO morally abhorrent "demographic principle", as long as the refugees are compensated accordingly.

[DemFromMem]

11. You would be right in an ideal world

Israel was born in the wake of the Holocaust because after thousands of years of persecution of the Jews. If we lived in a world where everyone was civil to each other, I suppose a Jewish homeland would not be necessary.

I don't think the Jewish people are unique, by the way. Maybe the Kurds deserve a homeland. And the Kosovars. And maybe the Tibetans. If people could free from persecution, then you would have a stronger point in my view.

[ProfessorGAC]

12. Not Possible

The posters point does not require any extrinsic conditions. You might have a different point of view than the one you currently possess in that perfect world, but that wouldn't make the other poster's point any stronger. The poster made the point that they don't believe in exceptionalism. It's disingenuous of you to dismiss that point merely because you disagree with it.
The Professor

[Laotra]

14. I don't believe in ideal world

(unless we mean the platonic realm of mathematics)

i believe in rational discussion and even better, dialogue. :)

As for Tibetans, I find the strict policy of non-violence by HH Dalai Lama admirable and exemplary, and make the note that the suffering in the Tibet has been not only an immense tragedy but also a blessing, as the Buddhist refugees have been spreading their teachings and kindness in the West much more than what would have been likely under different circumstances.

[Lance_Boyle]

13. I find the idea of a 'Jewish state' abhorrent,

as I find the idea of an 'Islamic Republic' abhorrent, as I find the delusions of those knuckle-draggers who call the US a 'Christian Nation' abhorrent. Separation of Church and State was such a good idea. Why did the deluded worshippers of mythological nonsense have to go and fuck up the world for the rest of us?

[DemFromMem]

15. You do realize that you can be an atheist and a Jew

I think that those who are not Jewish don't really appreciate the fact that Jews are an ethnic group and not just co-religionists. Most Israeli leaders over the decades have been fairly areligious and a sizable portion of the Israeli public is not religious at all (and probably a greater proportion of Israelis are atheists than the US).

Israel is not a theocratic state by any means. Judaism in Israel is like the Church of England in the UK. Yes, it is the official state religion, but if you're not a believer, you can still feel right at home. Yom Kippur in Israel is the biggest beach day of the year (a fact that usually shocks American Jews who are usually more religious than their counterparts in Israel).

Your response sounds like you don't know much about Jews or Israel. Go visit for yourself and see.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

16. I think that's a point that needs to continually be made

I'm critical of Israel and its treatment of the Palestinians. I don't know if Israel should have ever been created in the first place. But that's too late now. I think that people who have now established a country there, have been born there, have buried family members in that soil, and have established their culture and way of life there cannot be shipped off somewhere else. At some point in almost every country's history, there was an armed struggle to acquire the land over others, including the settlement of the United States itself. The same thing holds true for the Palestinians. There have been Arabs living along the eastern Mediterranean for centuries, who have lived, died, and buried family members in that soil. There needs to be compromise and mutural respect, or the killing will never stop. And I agree that the word 'Zionist' is probably not being used appropriately by some at DU. I think they are actually not referring to Zionists but to ultra right-wing Jews who want to either deport or kill all Arabs from the region of Palestine and promote a greater Israel.

[DemFromMem]

17. That's right

I think the actions of the settlers hoping for a greater Israel are correctly condemned. There are thoughtful peace loving folks here who can make the case for a fair two state solution. And then there are the angry, bitter people who rigidly spew out doctrine and can't admit that both sides have legitimate arguments to make and that compromise is the only way to true peace. The Jews aren't going anywhere. The Palestinians aren't going anywhere. Israel is not going away. Palestine is a reality. Any comments that fail to recognize these realities are not helpful. Any posts that denigrate the legitimacy of the claims of each of the two peoples for an indendent country are not helpful.

Unfortunately, too many people here immitate our Republican counterparts and can only recite the talking points.

[oc2002]

4. the current situation in Israel is the same as S.African Apartheid.

The fact is that Israel does not allow at least 50% of the people within its territories to vote because they are arabs in Gaza and West Bank. The two-state solution is apartheid.

[cali]

6. Why is the two state solution

apartheid?

You're correct that those in the West Bank and Gaza can't vote in Israeli elections, but Isreal has a 20% minority population, most of whom are Arabs. They vote, form their own parties and have seats in the Knesset.

What would you suggest in lieu of the two state solution?

[Laotra]

8. One state solution

would be more ideal, but I admit it's unrealistic under current circumstanses.

[noonwitch]

5. The Palestineans need to find common cause with the Israelis

I don't like the idea of two separate states-it leaves Israel surrounded by enemies and, like any other settlement of it's type, one group will always accuse the other of getting the better land.

It's too bad that there is so much violence-I really do see both sides of the issue, and I support Israel's right to exist and the Palestinean's right to exist. They need to be able to coexist in one country, or in two states with a combined federal/coalition government.

As long as the terrorists who feel they are speaking and acting for the Palestineans continue to target innocent Israeli civilians for attacks, Israel will respond in kind. After almost 50 years, the Palestineans should understand this by now. Israel is not leaving-they have the best arsenal in the area and have dug in deep. I don't agree with everything they've done over the years, especially destroying homes of people who may be related to terror suspects, but I understand their need to be tough on terrorists.

And I do see that the Palestineans feel trapped and as if they are less than equal to the Israelis. They feel brutalized by the treatment in the refugee camps and in other occupied areas. They don't stop the terrorists and many support them because they feel desperate about their situation.

I hope that Condi can start some kind of negotiations going soon and that some kind of cease fire can be arranged. I don't hold up a lot of hope, but at some point, enough is enough.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

9. I know of a fellow

who was born Jewish who became a Zen and Sufi master, as well as a mystic in the Kabballah. His name was Samuel L. Lewis, and he came up with a plan for peace in the Middle East soon after the birth of Israel. He suggested that all governments practice religious tolerance, and that holy cities like Jerusalem be called "Free Cities" in that all could go there to worship in peace. All members of the different faiths that called the city holy would help administer it, and it would belong to the world instead of only one country.

His followers keep alive the Dances of Universal Peace, and have done the Three Rings Dance in Jerusalem with Jews, Christians, and Muslims.

[maxsolomon]

10. i've heard similar

Jerusalem as an international city - administered by the UN, not Israel or Palestine.