Jd Hayworth is right about shutting down these borders

[peanutbrittle]

And let me make this clear, I don't care much for JD Hayworth at all.


It is absolutely unfathomable to me that, after 9/11, more has not been done with these borders. As far as I am concerned this is just one more sign and evidence of complicity of this administration in the war on terror. I just don't get it. The real threat other than the flooding of the American labor force and driving down industry wages for American citizens and costing taxpayers millions is the OTM (other than Mexicans.) It is too easy for Terrorists, drugs and weapons to infiltrate our border.

WTF is everyone thinking?

Does the Mexican Government have info on the BFEE that they could use to blackmail?
Does the BFEE want this proliferation?


In OKC today, a van load of illegals was pulled over by a OHP officer just west of town on I-40. 18 illegals escaped into a field. The OHP officer was stabbed(non life threatening) jumped over a barbed wire fence and attempted to chase them. Then another OHP pulled his cruiser into a Field and his cat converter started the field on fire! The cruiser burned and was totaled. There have been helicopters and ton's of law enforcement tied up all day attempting to capture these illegals.

For instance, there are 600,000 illegal aliens in the state of Florida. 600,000 !

I just don't get the complacency, there has to be something more going on here.

[babylonsister]

1. O.K. I'll just sit here and...

:popcorn: :popcorn: :beer:

[SoCalDem]

4. wanna share your popcorn with this guy?

[babylonsister]

7. Why? Does he work on the

border? :rofl: I kid!

[SoCalDem]

8. Yep.. He mans the....

Troll Booth :)

[babylonsister]

9. ROFL! nt

[LostinVA]

12. Jalapeno popcorn!

[Maestro]

2. The reason people come here

legally and illegally is because cheap labor conservatives will employ them. Don't blame the immigrants nor attack them like the rethugs like Hayworth like to do. Instead they need to attack the corporations and businesses that employ them. Then fine them with something that will deter future employment of undocumented workers. And btw, I have never heard of any terrorists making it through our Mexican borders. I don't know about Canada. Maybe once in the Seattle area something was spoiled. I can't remember.

[TahitiNut]

20. There's no question that it's the cheap-labor employers at the core

... of the problem. To them, I say "If you want to hire Mexican citizens, move to Mexico and if you want to hire Chines citizens, move to China!"

If anyone really wanted to put a lid on this problem, they'd merely infiltrate the 'undocumented' (illegal) work force and start imprisoning the employers and the facilitators. It's obviously no mystery to these 6 million or so people where they can get employed for cheap wages and a wink and a nod. At the same time, the federal minimum wage needs to be increased to about $7.50 ... covering far more jobs of those that've been allowed to slip through the cracks.

"Importing" labor from impoverished countries is in every way, shape, and form the moral equivalent of treating human labor as a commodity - which is both immoral and illegal.

[peanutbrittle]

26. I totally agree n/t

[donco6]

79. I'm not so sure about the minimum wage thing.

Is there anyplace to get statistics on how many people are working for minimum wage today? We haven't been hiring people for that for more than three years. Point being, I don't think raising minimum wage will have much impact on anything because I don't think there are that many people working for min wage.

But like I said, I don't have statistics, just anecdotal experience.

[TahitiNut]

152. Some states (not Colorado), mostly 'blue' states, have higher minimum ...

... wages than the Federal FLSA minimum wage and some states cover more categories of employees, or establish different minimums for certain categories of employees. The category of employee that's most often treated differently with regard to a minimum wage is "tipped employees" (generally speaking, those whose compensation is mostly tips) whose direct pay can be a minimum of $2.13/hour. (If combined direct and tip wages don't amount to the regular minimum wage in any pay period, the employer must make up the difference.)

An estimated 7.3 million workers (5.8% of the workforce) would receive an increase in their hourly wage rate if the minimum wage were raised from $5.15 to $7.25 by June 2007. Due to "spillover effects," the 8.2 million workers (6.5% of the workforce) earning up to a dollar above the minimum would also be likely to benefit from an increase.
http://www.epi.org/content.cfm/issueguides_minwage_minwagefacts

The real value of the minimum wage in 2005 was 32% of the average private non-supervisory wage ... the lowest percentage in over 55 years! Similarly, the net real value of the minimum wage is also about the lowest it's been in that same period.




A minimum wage of $4.25 per hour applies to young workers under the age of 20 during their first 90 consecutive calendar days of employment with an employer, as long as their work does not displace other workers. After 90 consecutive days of employment or the employee reaches 20 years of age, whichever comes first, the employee must receive a minimum wage of $5.15 per hour. Thus, teen-agers can be employed at "summer jobs" for less than minimum wage. Full-time students can also be paid 15% less as long as they don't work more than 20 hours per week.

The Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) establishes minimum wage, overtime pay, record-keeping, and child labor standards affecting full-time and part-time workers in the private sector and in Federal, State, and local governments. Covered nonexempt workers are entitled to a minimum wage of not less than $5.15 an hour. Overtime pay at a rate of not less than one and one-half times their regular rates of pay is required after 40 hours of work in a workweek.

Largely as a result of the Refascist policies of the Bush/Cheney regime, low and median wage workers have lost ground while the high wage workers are gaining ever more slowly.




Lots of solid information can be obtained at EPI ... http://www.epi.org/content.cfm/issueguides_minwage_minwage


As you can see in the map below, the states colored in yellow (no minimum wage law), blue (states with minimum wage laws at the same rates as federal), and brown (states with minimum wage rates lower{!} than the federal rates) are chock-full of both cheap labor conservatives and 'illegal' workforce immigrants. It's NO ACCIDENT!

[donco6]

161. Wow. I had no idea.

Thanks for the great info. This is very helpful.

[TahitiNut]

165. You're sure welcome. Note also that SEASONAL and DOMESTIC workers

... are not currently covered under FLSA. Guess who does those jobs?? :eyes: I would demand that those workers be covered under the FLSA with an increased minimum wage.

[AZBlue]

189. You're exactly right.

In any situation, if you don't go to the root of the problem (in this one, the employers), you'll never solve it. Get rid of an illegal worker and there are 5 more waiting to take his spot. Get rid of the employer and there's no place for all 6 of them to go.

[proud2BlibKansan]

53. Clinton's administration caught a group of terrorists

entering the US from Canada who were planning on bombing LAX.

[babylonsister]

58. Maestro, the reason I'm sitting this out is here:

I totally agree with you!


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3428779

[peanutbrittle]

70. I understand Maestro's points

but it doesn't address groups like MS-13, OTM terrorists, weapons and drugs

[Cleita]

86. This post is total BS.

:hi:

I see there is no link to a story about this or a legitimate source. It probably came off of the Aryan Nation website.

[AZBlue]

188. Some of the 9/11 hijackers and planners were here in AZ

And many came in through Mexico.

They still do - we get news alerts about them periodically.

[proud2BlibKansan]

205. You get news alerts about 9/11 hijackers?

They are still coming? And they are coming across the Mexican border? Today?

[Maestro]

207. Many terrorists come through Mexico?

Except for the odd criminal which is inevitable I have only seen hard working people escaping poverty in drug violence caused by US demand for illegal drugs. From whom do you get these alerts?

[catnhatnh]

3. One doesn't run into this country....

to commit terrorist acts (there are visas for that)....one runs into this country to work hard andfeed your family....

[sendero]

5. The same thing ..

... is going on here as is going on everywhere in this adminsitration.

It's about MONEY. Cheap Labor Republicans are not ABOUT to give up their cheap immigrant labor. It will never happen.

[LostinVA]

6. Yup, all those OTMs and Ms coming over here

And taking our jobs being migrant workers, sweatshoppers, maids, custodians, etc.... did I miss any high-paying, easy job? Hmmmmm? Oh! Underpaid day laborer! .... and, "OTM"???? WTF kind of dehumanizing language is that??????

I hope you are 100% Native American, because if not, you too are "OTM" or "M." The only difference between the "illegals" and your ancestors is time.

Nice xenophobic rant, Brittle.

[peanutbrittle]

19. Let me tell you something

First of all there is such a thing as terrorists (OTM's when referring to our borders and they can and most likely are and have been infiltrating our borders. To believe otherwise is simply naive.

The other thing is that these illegals are not just day laborers. It effects every construction trade from excavators to roofers and all trades in between. To believe otherwise is simply naive. And I am in a position to know as are many other LOWER MIDDLE CLASS American citizens who are and have been desperately attempting and have been attempting to achieve something called the "AMERICAN DREAM" which after working our asses off all of our lives in this industry see it slipping between our fingers.

[bigtree]

22. you wouldn't have a great country or industry without the contributions

of immigrants.

It's amazing to me how the inhabitants of this land we call America - a country obtained and founded through force and deception by an immigrant, Anglo/Saxon pack of misogynist thugs - can assert their nationalism and detach themselves from the global influences that were essential, critical elements in the establishment of our nation and in the sustaining the people who settled here.

The Europeans were immigrants to this land. The original inhabitants comprised/comprise a vast nation of many languages and many different cultures that have existed together for centuries.

Immigrants and their children raise the incomes of American workers by $10 billion each year. Immigrants pay $80,000 more in taxes than they receive in total benefits over their lifetimes.

More than 60,000 active military personnel are immigrants. Immigrants account for five percent or more of active duty enlisted personnel in some branches of the military.

[peanutbrittle]

30. You are confusing immigrants with illegal immigrants and the danger

and the danger of unsecured borders.

600,000 ILLEGAL immigrants in FL. You don't see a problem with this?

[bigtree]

31. no I'm not

read the statistics. those who enter the country illegally are the ones represented in the figures about their contribution to the tax base (sales taxes, the most regressive with poor spending most of their disposable income) compared to their benefits they recieve, and the money they spend back into our economy.

[peanutbrittle]

37. Look, my main point is that it is unfathomable

that terrorists, and weapons can be transported across this border at it's open points. It is unfathomable to me how little has been done to correct this problem considering the war on terror.

Do you feel safe in this respect?

[bigtree]

43. different issue which requires a committment to law enforcement which

can be carried out without casting dubious aspersions on an entire class of people who cross our borders to survive.

I recall an auto plant which had located near the border on the Mexican side. It helped to reduce the numbers of men and women crossing to find work. A hastily built town grew up around the plant and thrived in a fashion until the plant one day closed its doors. The people who had relied on the plant were once again thrown into the position of crossing the border for their survival. That is what should be our primary concern, the humanity of these people who are separated only by a line drawn on a map. I guarantee that if there is a god there are no borders in his/her view.

[peanutbrittle]

48. The Mexican people are in desperate need of a better life.

I understand this. Maybe it's time we forced the government of Mexico to start providing for their people by shutting down the porous borders into our country. Sometimes God himself practices tough love.

[bigtree]

52. ridiculous

governments don't provide sustaining industry except in a Communist state or a dictatorship masquerading as a Socialist republic which owns all of the enterprises.

Closed borders without massive economic assistance to Mexico would doom a majority of these people to starvation and death.

[peanutbrittle]

62. The Mexican government can create the atmosphere for industry to flourish

And if they won't do it then it's time for tough love. Corporate America can step up to the plate here as well without exploitation.

[Horse with no Name]

155. Are you familiar with the history of Mexico?

The government corruption that destroyed the economy of the entire nation for hundreds of years? How long do you think it will take to fix that without workable solutions?
Let me ask you a question.
It isn't unthinkable that we might not be successful at ousting this fascist regime who has control of our country.
Perpetual wars and terror and croneyism and no-bid contracts has put our country in a deficit like we have never seen.
It will continue. When the treasury is completely empty, when the US has no credit abroad, and the people are footing the bill for the corruption...what kind of jobs do you think will be available here?
If your kids were starving and you had no other options--would you head to Canada and attempt a better life or would you simply let your family starve to death?

[peanutbrittle]

166. I hear you

There is no question that our current corpocracy and Mexico's history of corruption is at the heart of the problem.

I remember when American's were upset when American Corporations were beginning to build manufacturing plants in Mexico and we were losing jobs and then a time when Americans have been so upset about all the years funneling money to Mexico into a hole. I thought when the Corporations starting building plants in Mexico that may have been the start of something that would carry Mexico forward even though we here sacrificed. What happened? that was 10-15 years ago.

I actually wouldn't have a problem with totally open borders if the agreement was worked properly, something that would be good for BOTH sides of the border. What is holding something like that back?

As an American citizen I am frustrated.

[Horse with no Name]

169. Corruption on both sides of the border

And corporatism. Payola. Take your pick. The average Mexican worker didn't benefit any more than the American worker that lost their job.
Corporations ONLY go to Mexico because of lax labor laws and low wages.
So tell me how that is good for the Mexican worker?
We should want for our neighbors what we want for ourselves.

[Name removed]

108. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[peanutbrittle]

116. The issue isn't race. It's the dangers illegality of a porous border. n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

132. dangers illegality??

Are you series?

That's hugh1111

:rofl:

[bigtree]

10. illegals

they're not even people deserving of some acknowledgement of their humanity? Are they all terrorists, drug addicts, and violent offenders to you? Are they all so dangerous that you need to lump them together in your box of scorn?

[LostinVA]

13. And don't forget "OTM"

[peanutbrittle]

21. They are breaking our law

Are they all terrorists, drug addicts, and violent offenders

Why would you generalize like this when I did not

Do you understand that they saturate our labor force and drive down wages?

[bigtree]

28. we break laws in our necessary protests sometimes.

do we deserve to be persecuted for that because someone sees us as a threat, or because someone somewhere acted violently or inappropriately in protest?

The wage issue is bunk.


What Impact Does Immigration Have on the U.S. Labor Market?

Understanding the effect of immigration on wages and jobs requires looking both at aggregate data and specific labor markets. Aggregate data show no overall effect. Studies of specific labor markets show small negative effects on low-skilled workers in stagnant local economies with high concentrations of immigrants, but not in other types of economies.

The impact of immigration on the wages and jobs of native-born Americans within a community is likely to vary over time depending on the the local economy. In growing economies, immigration increases the labor market opportunities of low-skilled workers; in declining ones or stagnant economies, immigration diminishes them.

Estimates of the labor market effects of immigrants usually fail to account for the job-creating effects of immigrant businesses and spending. Self-employment is higher among immigrants than among native-born Americans. Also, spending by immigrants on food, clothing, housing, and other goods creates jobs. Immigrant incomes in 1989 totaled about $285 billion, representing the same share of total incomes in the U.S. that immigrants represent of the total U.S. population.

http://www.urban.org/publications/305184.html#I

Abowd, John M. and Richard B. Freeman (eds.) (1991). Immigration, Trade, and the Labor Market. Chicago: The University of Chicago Press.

Altonji, Joseph G. and David Card (1991). "The Effects of Immigration on the Labor Market Outcomes of Less-skilled Natives." In Immigration, Trade, and the Labor Market, John M. Abowd and Richard B. Freeman (eds.). Chicago: The University of Chicago Press.

Bach, R. and H. Brill (1989). "Shifting the Burden: The Impacts of IRCA and U.S. Labor Markets." Unpublished Interim Report to the Division of Immigration Policy and Research, U.S. Department of Labor, November.

(1991). Impact of IRCA on the U.S. Labor Market and Economy: Final Report to the U.S. Department of Labor. Institute for Research on Multiculturalism and International Labor Working Paper. Binghamton: SUNY.

[peanutbrittle]

33. Illegal Immigrants

Illegals live sometimes 3-4 families to a home and send money back to Mexico. They work for low wages and ARE saturating our workforce to the point where it drives wages down. You will not convince me otherwise. I have seen it first hand

[bigtree]

38. The numbers and facts researched don't matter more than your own bias?

sounds like hayworth

[peanutbrittle]

42. 600,000 ILLEGAL immigrants in florida

You don't see a problem with this?

[bigtree]

45. you cited the economy and terrorism as your primary concerns

the economy is obviously enhanced by their presence, the prospect that 600,000 people in Florida who have disregarded our immigration laws are somehow a danger to our country is belied by the fact that they have coexisted there for decades with our 'naturalized' citizenry. I'm frankly more frightened by Americans.

[peanutbrittle]

50. The sheer numbers have lowered the living wage standards in many industrie

and you will not convince me otherwise

[bigtree]

54. true, but overall the effect is that these folks enhance our economy

and contribute to our lives in unmeasurable ways that caring Americans understand.

[barb162]

92. I think it has been proven that isn't true.

Which explains why, for example, hospitals in the SW have gone out of business. Also how many illegals are paying federal and state income taxes.Probably close to zero.

[proud2BlibKansan]

97. You got a link?

Cause I know many many illegal immigrants paying federal, state AND local taxes. So that throws your "zero" right out the window.

[peanutbrittle]

101. How do they do that other than sales tax?

[proud2BlibKansan]

125. They work and taxes are withheld, just like me

There is a local earnings tax we pay in the city where I work.

They pay rent. The landlord pays property taxes with their rent money.

I am sorry but I can't believe you know so little about illegal immigration and the economic BENEFITS. :crazy:

[barb162]

106. what are they using for Social Security numbers on their tax forms?

[proud2BlibKansan]

128. You never heard of buying a fake social security card?

Or a fake driver's license?

I can give you the address of a place here in my town where you can buy them. :)

[barb162]

147. Um, it's illegal.

[proud2BlibKansan]

149. So is murder and robbery and driving while intoxicated

But funny thing - folks still do all those things. :crazy:

[barb162]

154. And they get locked up when they are caught

(as they should be)

[proud2BlibKansan]

164. And illegals are sent back to where they came from

Did you think they are arrested and given a Welcome Wagon basket?

[barb162]

167. Why would you think I think that?

Illegals are breaking US law and should be returned to their own countries. Let them apply legally if they want to come here. Would you just illegally go to any other country and break their immigration laws? Doesn't that show you have no respect for that country and its laws. I don't approve of breaking the immigration laws of other countries or this country.

[proud2BlibKansan]

173. Knock knock anyone home?

They ARE returned. And guess what?


THEY COME BACK.

[barb162]

176. Knock knock that's why a fully staffed border patrol

is needed. Then they won't be coming back if there's no easy way to get in. Also, fine and jail the greedy employers: end of most of the problem.

[proud2BlibKansan]

177. So do they shoot to kill or just to maim?

Should we arm them with tasers?

Oh I know - we could give them a great big long rope and they could hold it along the border.

[barb162]

178. Tell me something...

why did you mention a few posts back the bit about letting the people die rather than getting medical treatment and now this thing about tasers. WTF is wrong with border patrol saying stop, police, put your hands up, etc., which is what I assume they do. Also the rope? Hmm? I believe the fence is already being built on the southern border or funds have already been appropriated for it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

180. Do you understand the meaning of the

:sarcasm: icon????

And if you want your tax dollars wasted on a fence that won't keep illegal immigrants out, then I don't even know how to respond.

[barb162]

183. I wish the emotion level could be toned down a few notches

[barb162]

107. Illegal Immigration Costs California $10.5 Billion Annually

here's CA alone


http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/immigrationnaturalizatio/a/caillegals.htm


State's "cheap labor" costs average household $1,183 a year
Dateline: December, 2004
In hosting America's largest population of illegal immigrants, California bears a huge cost to provide basic human services for this fast growing, low-income segment of its population. A new study from the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR) examines the costs of education, health care and incarceration of illegal aliens, and concludes that the costs to Californians is $10.5 billion per year.

Among the key finding of the report are that the state's already struggling K-12 education system spends approximately $7.7 billion a year to school the children of illegal aliens who now constitute 15 percent of the student body. Another $1.4 billion of the taxpayers' money goes toward providing health care to illegal aliens and their families, the same amount that is spent incarcerating illegal aliens criminals.

"California's addiction to 'cheap' illegal alien labor is bankrupting the state and posing enormous burdens on the state's shrinking middle class tax base," stated Dan Stein, President of FAIR. "Most Californians, who have seen their taxes increase while public services deteriorate, already know the impact that mass illegal immigration is having on their communities, but even they may be shocked when they learn just how much of a drain illegal immigration has become."

The Costs of Illegal Immigration to Californians focuses on three specific program areas because those were the costs examined by researchers from the Urban Institute in 1994. Looking at the costs of education, health care and incarceration for illegal aliens in 1994, the Urban Institute estimated that California was subsidizing illegal immigrants to the tune of about $1.1 billion. The enormous rise in the costs of illegal immigrants over the intervening ten years is due to the rapid growth in illegal residents. It is reasonable to expect those costs to continue to soar if action is not taken to turn the tide. snip

[tishaLA]

186. Do you know *anything* about FAIR...

the group that published that report? If you did, you wouldn't push that bullshit here. And you might want to read FAIR's full report, too, so you can see how specious their conclusions are.

[barb162]

120. Government To Reimburse Hospitals for Emergency Care for Illegal Aliens

Payments To Help Hospitals Care for Illegal Immigrants
By Robert Pear, The New York Times, Dateline Washington, May 10, 2005
and
U.S. To Help Cover Health Costs of Illegals; Providers in State To Divy Up $71 Million for Emergency Care
By Tyche Hendricks, The San Francisco Chronicle, May 10, 2005
and
Government To Reimburse Hospitals for Emergency Care for Illegal Aliens
By Kevin Freking, Associated Press Newswires, Dateline Washington, May 9, 2005
The Bush administration announced on May 9 that $1 billion will be available to hospitals nationwide to pay for emergency care to illegal immigrants.
U.S. hospitals, especially those located along the U.S.-Mexican border, have been incurring huge financial burdens because they are required by federal law to provide medical treatment to all persons seeking emergency care, regardless of their immigration status or ability to pay.
In California, a popular destination for illegal immigrants, nine hospitals have closed in the past year, due in part to increasing costs associated with caring for illegal immigrants. This fiscal year, California will be getting $70.8 million in federal aid, but it is estimated that California hospitals spend $500 million each year caring for illegal immigrants.
Nonetheless, the federal aid is considered to be a breakthrough. Jan Emerson, spokeswoman for the California Healthcare Association, which represents hospitals, is quoted as saying: "It (the federal aid) is hugely symbolic, because it is the first time the federal government has acknowledged that it has a role."
See the May 9, 2005 fact sheet issued by the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services.

http://www.cms.hhs.gov/apps/media/press/release.asp?Counter=1452

[proud2BlibKansan]

142. Yep, we should just let them

die. No need to be compassionate, enact policies that actually SUPPORT medical care and healthy lifestyles. Let's just leave tham all at the border to DIE. We need all our tax dollars to fight that war in Iraq.

:sarcasm:

[barb162]

153. Of course they shouldn't be allowed to die. They should be treated

I can't believe you're writing that. But you're avoiding the subject of the costs. I think the illegals are costing this country a huge amount and I have provided some links and now the discussion is somehow turned into letting them die? No. It's the overall net cost of the illegal immigration to this country. Maybe Vincente Fox should write a big check to the US government every month for the costs of his citizens in this country. Same goes for illegals of other countries. Foreign governments and their citizens should not be determining US immigration policy and they shouldn't be violating our immigration laws. Take a look at the government of Mexico's laws on immigration violations.

[proud2BlibKansan]

162. And we have had this discussion on DU so many times I can't count

Go to a non conservative website and get some facts. Illegal immigration is NOT costing this country wads of cash. Several posts on this very thread have disputed your claim. Illegal immigration is an economic benefit to America. WTF do you think it has been allowed to continue all these years?

[barb162]

168. see post 146 which contains a study by a U of Florida

liberal Democrat economics professor which shows the net cost of illegal immigration in that state. Illegal immigration is in fact costing this country huge wads of cash. In state after state. It's been allowed to continue because greedy bastard employers love paying illegals under the table without benefits and pocketing the difference. It's all very basic: more $$$$ to the employers because illegals don't complain and put up with low wages. If they complain they can get turned in and sent back to Mexico

[proud2BlibKansan]

172. Well it has enriched my little corner of the world

Some things you can't put a price tag on.

[AZBlue]

193. They are playing the straw man game.

They don't have a good response to your information because it's factual and correct. So instead they respond with BS and turn this into an absurd argument about illegal immigrants dying, which is off-topic and desperate.

[bigtree]

100. you ignore the sales taxes they pay and the money they put back into the

economy. There's no doubt that in depressed areas the impact is greater, even overwhelming, but overall, it has been proven that they add to the nation's economy, not detract from it. Some way should be found to address the inequities outside of condemming such an important and influential people to expulsion or alienation.

[barb162]

146. I think the sales tax comes out to next to nothing.

It's nothing in comparison to educating a child or children.

David Denslow an economist at the U. of Florida that basically showed the illegals weren't at all paying their own way. It's a huge file
http://www.bebr.ufl.edu/Publications/Tough_Choices.pdf

"Compared to a native household, the net effect of an immigrant household on the state and local budget is roughly an $1800 loss." pp 373-374

Immigrant households pay roughly $400 less than native households per year in sales taxes.p 373

[bigtree]

156. Immigrants Pay their Fair Share

http://www.ailf.org/ipc/policy_reports_2002_pay.asp

Study Shows Florida Immigrants Pay their
Proportionate Share of Taxes - and Sometimes More
A recent study by the University of Florida shows that immigrants in Florida pay their fair share of taxes, and in some cases there are several immigrant groups that pay substantially higher taxes.
back to list of recent reports

Why Florida?

A 2001 study conducted by the Bureau of Economic and Business Research at the University of Florida focuses on the economic impact of immigrants using Florida native-born residents and immigrants as their sample group. Florida provides an interesting area to study the immigration question, as it is the third-leading destination for immigration. Specifically Florida's Miami-Dade County is a haven for immigration and an example of an area that has felt a profound effect of several generations of immigrants. One aspect that the study focuses on is comparing the level of taxes paid in Florida and Miami-Dade County by both immigrants and persons born in the United States.


Different Immigrants Studied

The study focuses both on Florida in general, and Miami-Dade County specifically and separates immigrants into several categories, including where they were born, when they arrived in the U.S., whether or not they are naturalized citizens, and which generation of immigrants they belong to. The study uses census data and examined federal income, FICA, property, and sales taxes, and in the end, researchers came to conclusions that were overwhelmingly positive.



"These results provide powerful evidence|
that immigrants do pay their share of taxes."


Forien-Born versus Natives of Florida

The study shows that although Florida immigrants paid less per capita than native-born persons, most immigrants pay their share of taxes - in fact, some immigrants studied pay more. For example, immigrants who arrived in the United States before 1980 pay 25 percent more in taxes than do natives - $5,268 compared to $4,180.1 Also, naturalized citizens paid an estimated $5,485 in taxes, 31 percent more than natives. A possible explanation for this may be due to that fact that both naturalized citizens and immigrants who arrived prior to 1980 have had many years of residence in the U.S. to develop careers in business and pursue a variety of economic opportunities, providing them with greater taxable income than other groups of immigrants.

In general natives pay more in taxes than immigrants, but researchers found this to be because of the larger native-born population in Florida. The study found that while natives pay the majority of the taxes in Florida (85 percent) it is because they are also the majority of the population (84 percent). The foreign-born compromise about 16 percent of Florida's population and they pay 15 percent of all taxes in Florida, proving that there is little difference between immigrants and natives in terms of total taxes they pay in Florida. .



Immigrants and Social Security

Surprisingly enough, when it comes to paying Social Security, immigrants pay more that natives. Immigrants annually pay $1,011 in Social Security, or FICA taxes while natives pay $881. The immigrant groups that contribute the most to Social Security are immigrants who arrived before 1980 and naturalized foreign-born citizens, who pay $1,235 and $1,186 respectively.

A similar study conducted by the National Research Council has shown that due to contributions by immigrants, the total net benefit to the Social Security System will be nearly $500 billion.2 With more people than ever retiring at an earlier age, the U.S. finds its Social Security funds depleting. These studies show that immigrants who pay the Social Security tax are helping solve this problem.

Focus on Maimi

The study also specifically targets Miami-Dade County, an area with one of the largest immigrant populations in the U.S., and also found that immigrants are paying their share of taxes. Results of the study show that of Miami-Dade County residents, immigrants pay $142 more per capita in total taxes than native-born citizens. Natives paid an average of $3,467 in all taxes while immigrants paid $3,609.

Also similar to the study of all of Florida, immigrants pay more in social security tax than natives. Naturalized foreign-born pay the highest FICA taxes of any immigrant or native group, $1,289 on average per year.


Conclusion

The University of Florida study shows that immigrants do pay their proportionate share of taxes and in some cases pay more than the native-born population. Even though differentials exist within the immigrant population by time of arrival, citizenship, and place of birth, the study shows immigrants are equal to natives in terms of paying taxes.



Prepared, May 2002

Endnotes
1Thomas D. Boswell, June Nogel, Rob Paral, Richard Langendorf, "Facts About Immigration: Asking 'Six Big Questions' for Florida and Miami-Dade County." Published by the University of Florida, November 2001.
2James P. Smith, "The New Americans: Economic, Demographic, and Fiscal Effects of Immigration." National Research Council, National Academy of Sciences. National Academy Press, 1997.

Copyright © 2002
Materials may be freely reprinted, but please credit AILF as the source.


Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security with Billions
http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/37/10128


Illegal Aliens Paying Taxes
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/04/14/politics/main549153.shtml


Imagine if we made these folks citizens. Think of their contributions to our society. No longer could folks gripe (I think wrongly) about them not paying taxes. Kinda tears that excuse to demonize them doesn't it?

[barb162]

163. yours is a 2001 study by U of Fl. Mine is from 2005 by Uof Florida

done by a liberal Democrat economics professor who was very surprised by the findings that a large net loss was being incurred in regard to the costs of the illegal immigrants in that state.

Does your study deal with the cost of educating one child K-12 at 4000 bucks a year when a family has two or more kids. The study itself isn't included in your link and I can't check their methodology. I am concerned with taxes paid and costs in taxes of the same family . A family paying 400 a year in sales tax to Florida isn't covering 2 kids getting a public education.

[peanutbrittle]

95. Illegal Immigration Costs Florida $4.3 Billion a Year, Report Says

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=%5CCulture%5Carchive%5C200508/CUL20050808a.html

[bigtree]

112. looks like you're left with conservative sources

Federation for American Immigration Reform
Washington, D.C.

Founded in 1978 by John H. Tanton, the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR) is one of the country's best-established anti-immigration groups ý and the richest beneficiary among them of the largesse of the infamous Pioneer Fund.

The Fund, which has long subsidized dubious studies of the alleged links between race and intelligence, awarded FAIR $1.2 million between 1985 and 1994, according to the Institute for the Study of Academic Racism. FAIR now says that it has severed its links to the controversial Fund.

Today, FAIR claims a staggering 70,000 members, although that number is almost certainly inflated. Tanton remains on FAIR's board and also is the publisher of The Social Contract Press, which sells racist anti-immigrant tracts.

Dan Stein, the group's executive director, has warned that certain immigrant groups are engaged in "competitive breeding" aimed at diminishing white power. Rick Oltman, FAIR's western representative, has spoken before and worked with the racist Council of Conservative Citizens.


http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?sid=175

The figures you cite are from the Stein Report.

[peanutbrittle]

119. If there is something else out there I would be interested

in looking at it.

[bigtree]

130. I did some work in a post above. It's not my premise to defend

but here:

What Impact Does Immigration Have on the U.S. Labor Market?

Understanding the effect of immigration on wages and jobs requires looking both at aggregate data and specific labor markets. Aggregate data show no overall effect. Studies of specific labor markets show small negative effects on low-skilled workers in stagnant local economies with high concentrations of immigrants, but not in other types of economies.

The impact of immigration on the wages and jobs of native-born Americans within a community is likely to vary over time depending on the the local economy. In growing economies, immigration increases the labor market opportunities of low-skilled workers; in declining ones or stagnant economies, immigration diminishes them.

Estimates of the labor market effects of immigrants usually fail to account for the job-creating effects of immigrant businesses and spending. Self-employment is higher among immigrants than among native-born Americans. Also, spending by immigrants on food, clothing, housing, and other goods creates jobs. Immigrant incomes in 1989 totaled about $285 billion, representing the same share of total incomes in the U.S. that immigrants represent of the total U.S. population.

http://www.urban.org/publications/305184.html#I

Abowd, John M. and Richard B. Freeman (eds.) (1991). Immigration, Trade, and the Labor Market. Chicago: The University of Chicago Press.

Altonji, Joseph G. and David Card (1991). "The Effects of Immigration on the Labor Market Outcomes of Less-skilled Natives." In Immigration, Trade, and the Labor Market, John M. Abowd and Richard B. Freeman (eds.). Chicago: The University of Chicago Press.

Bach, R. and H. Brill (1989). "Shifting the Burden: The Impacts of IRCA and U.S. Labor Markets." Unpublished Interim Report to the Division of Immigration Policy and Research, U.S. Department of Labor, November.

(1991). Impact of IRCA on the U.S. Labor Market and Economy: Final Report to the U.S. Department of Labor. Institute for Research on Multiculturalism and International Labor Working Paper. Binghamton: SUNY.

[barb162]

136. try this

http://www.migrationint.com.au/news/iran/apr_1994-07mn.asp
Immigration Laws: April, 1994 - Number #7
Immigration Costs in Texas and Florida
Rice University economist Donald Huddle estimates that legal and illegal immigration cost the state of Texas more that $4.68 billion in 1992, i.e., state and local governments incurred $4.68 billion more in costs than 1.9 million immigrants who arrived in the state since 1970 paid in taxes to state and local governments. According to Huddle, illegal immigrants cost Texas, $1.02 billion, legal immigrants $3.66 billion.

Urban Institute demographer Jeff Passel re-examined Huddle's estimates and found that, because Huddle does not include the taxes that accrue to governments immigrants indirectly create job for Americans, and ignores the taxes paid as immigrants purchase food and housing, he underestimates their tax contributions. The Urban Institute has received a White House grant to estimate state costs associated with illegal immigration.

In Florida, the Governor's Office and the Florida Advisory Council on Intergovernmental Relations prepared a report, "The Unfair Burden, Immigration's Impact on Florida." It estimates that the state's 340,000 illegal immigrants cost the government $884 million a year for education, housing and justice costs.

Debra Beachy, "Study estimates immigrants cost Texas $4.68 billion in 1992," March 3, 1994, The Houston Chronicle.
Reena Shah Stamets, "The debate over illegal immigrants," St. Petersburg Times, March 18, 1994, p. 1A.
Magaret L. Usdansky, "Analysts argue over cost vs. contribution," USA Today, March 18, 1994, p. 7A.
"Florida Says Illegal Immigrants Cost $884 Million in Services," The New York Times, March 14, 1994, p. B7.
"Immigrants Cause Unfair Burden, Governor Says," The Times-Picayune, March 14, 1994. p. A4.
David LaGesse, "States' Spending on Immigrants Under Study," Dallas Morning News, March 21, 1994, p. 4A.

[bigtree]

148. they ignored the sales taxes that the poor pay more of as they spend more

of their 'disposable' income to survive without benefit of savings, health care, bank accounts . . .

[barb162]

157. see post 146 which contains a huge file done by a U. of Florida

prof. The sales tax comes out to a few hundred bucks a year for the average family . It takes Florida about $4000 a year to educate a child. Multiply that by whatever number of children an immigrant family has and you're out of luck thinking sales tax covers that. The study indicates a large loss to the state of Florida per year from illegal immigrants.

[bigtree]

160. to get a job they need a ss card, a fake one which allows them to pay tax

but get no benefit in the end. They actually support the ss system. Your link has references to an opposing study by the Urban Institute. There are other opposing studies you know.

[barb162]

170. I gotta laugh /cry when you mention the fake SS card.

It's illegal to come here without going through immigration, then fake ss cards are illegal, etc. One law after another broken. How can you support breaking thre laws of this country. In any case, that huge and very recent study I provided clearly shows the costs of the illegal immigrants isn't being covered by the samll taxes they pay. Start looking around p 373 and it's all there. I suspect that goes for any other state. I do know that greedy employers love employing illegals. Wal-Mart and thousands of other predatory employers love hiring them to clean their stores at night for below minimum wage and with no breaks and then they sing the praises of how we need more illegal immigrants in this country.

[bigtree]

174. you laugh, but these are the ways that folks survive

it's not going to benefit anyone by boxing these poor folks in with contradictory laws and expectations. On one hand they can't pay enough taxes for some, when they find a way to engage and contribute to our system, mostly to survive, they're castigated. Give them a way to pay taxes legally, there are proposals out there that would aloow that. The employers do benefit from the cheap labor, but they allow these small businesses to exist and maintain. The cheap labor allows for lower priced services and goods, including food and vegetables. Help them to become contributing members and there will be more than enough of a benefit from these folks who circumvent our laws to live. What we do now is keep them yoked to a subservient existence where they clearly contribute, as a whole, but they don't get the benefit from their contributions. An educated, healthy citizenry is a productive one. Why is so much of the focus on penalizing those who cross our border for opportunity and survival and so little focus on their humanity? It seems counterproductive. We can't stop them from crossing, you know, without fencing ourselves in.

[barb162]

204. You make exellent points but my priority is with American citizens

losing their jobs to illegals. Construction, manufacturing, restaurant workers, lawn service, etc., one after another. American citizens then lose their houses, their money, go bankrupt, go on welfare, etc. Let the governments of other countries worry about their own citizens and how to make their lives better; we have more than enough unemployment here already because of the illegals here forcing down wages and Americans out of jobs. Lawn service people once were fairly highly paid and American. Same with several other industries now populated by illegals. Perhaps your concern should be more for unemployed American citizens whose jobs have been taken by illegals than for the illegals. People who want to come to the US should apply legally.

[AZBlue]

192. Come to a border state and see if you still think it's a good idea

It's not. Not for Americans and especially not for them. They are underpaid, overworked, and taken advantage of - I'm not against them coming here, I just think it should be done legally. For everyone's sake.

[tyedyeto]

138. Show me where they have lowered the 'living wage standards'.

Please provide me with links so I may check out your 'facts'.

The only 'living wage standards' that are below our own poverty level are those who work for minimum wage in this country. These are not teenagers working after school but single mothers trying to escape welfare.

[peanutbrittle]

144. phrased wrong maybe

Small business owners whom may be in labor intensive markets, such as construction, when employing low wage illegal immigrants, puts pressure on the legitimate companies who are following the rules and paying the better wages, benefits, taxes (overheads.) It can either put companies out of business or can force the whole industry to lower labor costs / wages in order to compete. It creates an unlevel playing Field.

[tyedyeto]

150. You obviously don't live where illegals work in construction

Down here near the border, an illegal can earn just as much as any other person in the construction business. And the employer pays NOTHING in taxes for said person. They may show on a payroll stub that they are taking taxes out of their pay, but it is never paid. If they are an illegal, that person is never on 'payroll' so NO money goes toward taxes, social security, etc. They may not get the health benefits, but they earn just as much as any American in the industry. The pay, tho, is the same if they are legal or illegal.

Again, show me the links.

[AZBlue]

194. Yes. And illegal immigrants work for below the minimum wage often.

They are really the greatest victims here.

[LostinVA]

110. Good lord, is that the only figure you have?

Come up with something else, because i'm getting bored reading the same thing over and over and over again.... hurry, now, because I'm putting you on ignore ina minute, and I might miss some gem about M's, or OTMs, or FYIs, or ASAP's or something.

[proud2BlibKansan]

129. LOL

Your user name is very misleading. You aren't the least bit lost. I'd say you know exactly where you are - and where you are going.

:rofl:

[LostinVA]

179. hehehehehe -- thanks

And, I generally like your posts, even though you are an overpaid teacher who gets every Summer off...

[proud2BlibKansan]

57. So you have a problem with 3-4 families living in a house together?

Please do tell why that bothers you so much.

:popcorn:

[peanutbrittle]

63. It's illegal. period n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

65. So is driving over the speed limit

I take it you have NEVER done that? :rofl:

[peanutbrittle]

74. I'm sorry but it's not playing on a fair playing field

as is hiring an exploiting illegals when competing in industry while attempting to achieve the American dream.

As a Democrat the American dream is important to me. I have worked way too long and way to hard and I'm running out of time.

In a 1200 sq ft house 3-4 families is unhealthy

[proud2BlibKansan]

76. No it is not

That is the standard in many many countries. I know LOTS of families that live in multiple family houses and they are NOT unhealthy.

The only place this is unhealthy is in your mind.

[peanutbrittle]

78. It's unsafe

[proud2BlibKansan]

89. PROVE IT

I already told you I know people living like this and they are not unhealthy. Show me some who are sick or as you say "unsafe".

[AZBlue]

196. NOT like they do.

These are two totally different situations. I too know people who live in multi-family or multi-generational homes. But they have the space for it. They can have privacy and dignity. Illegal immigrants all over this state are renting one bedroom apartments and homes and putting 3-4 families in those. That's what this is about. They shouldn't have to live like that.

[proud2BlibKansan]

66. You know I just realized no, it isn't illegal

That is a local ordinance and not a state or federal law.

It's not illegal in my city. But then, we aren't racists here.

[peanutbrittle]

77. There are occupancy regulations in single

There are occupancy regulations in single family dwellings, you might want to double check those.

Has nothing to do with racial issues. It has to do with safety

[proud2BlibKansan]

88. Not in my city

I already told you I know several families living in multiple family dwellings. But then I am open minded, not the least bit racist and have diverse friendships that enrich my life beyond words.

[LostinVA]

111. Or mine

[barb162]

159. We have the same thing here, occupancy standards to prevent.

overcrowding and/or to maintain single family residences as true single family residences. There were some instances of people converting single family homes to illegal apts and then installing extra stoves and furnaces with improper venting and causing fires, etc.

[AZBlue]

195. They aren't choosing to live like that!

They live like that because they have to, not because they want to. We're not talking about a huge house with everyone getting their own bedroom - they sleep on the floor of the living room - there's no furniture, just beds. I've seen it more times than I can count. Why should they have to live like this?? You're defending this way of life?? I don't get that.

[Horse with no Name]

32. Hey I got a job for ya

It's one in great demand.
You can get up at 3 in the morning EVERY morning 365 days a year and milk cows!
Not only that---you can stay at work until 7-8 at night to get cleaned up after the second milking.
Try to stay healthy though cause there isn't any health insurance.
There isn't any workmans comp either so you best be careful.
It pays $150 a week but you do get a rat trap mobile home to live in for free for you and your family.
PM me your address and phone number. I'm sure one of the dairy farmers around here would gladly give you a job instead of one of the Mexican's that now does it.

[peanutbrittle]

35. Is his employee legal or illegal? I'm sure he could find a legal juvenile

to do that job.

[Horse with no Name]

40. He could find a legal juvenile

Most juveniles go to school.
Besides there ARE labor laws to protect children from working sweat shops conditions (which 16 hour days 365 days a year would be considered).
These are what the immigrants without papers do in our area.
They demand nothing.
They pay into Social Security on their fake social security cards.
Money that will never be claimed by anyone in their family.
Let me give you some friendly advice.
They aren't bad people. Like any group of people, there will be good ones and there will be bad ones.
I've lived around this my entire life in Texas and Arizona.
If you want to vent your frustrations at someone for taking away your opportunity to live the American dream, you should blame that employer who pays the man.
But you should also blame yourself. Is it worth it to you to pay $10-12 a gallon for milk to keep American jobs?

[peanutbrittle]

44. So you are condoning illegal immigration? When they illegally

cross our borders? And you are willing to take the risk of allowing someone other than illegal labor force Mexican's, such as a terrorist to cross our borders. What do you suggest?

[Horse with no Name]

55. I don't condemn anyone for trying to feed their family

I just don't. If the employers didn't give them jobs, they would have no reason to cross. Again--this is a problem with the people hiring them.
Personally, I'd rather take the risk of someone crossing the border than live behind a fucking wall.
As someone else stated, the terrorists in this country who supposedly were behind 911 all had Visas.
None of them were illegal.
Seems you are looking for problems that don't exist.

[peanutbrittle]

67. problem doesn't exist?

I'm MIHOP on 9/11 so that is a different issue.

I agree with you that employers are part of the problem.

Creating an evironment where the Mexican population can flourish would be the ultimate answer.

[Horse with no Name]

72. Employers aren't part of the problem

They ARE the complete problem.
If there aren't any jobs, then nobody is gonna come here for nothing.

[alarimer]

11. Big agribusiness

They do not want the borders closed so they can still get cheap (minimum wage or even less) labor. Our government is not very serious about it closing the borders either because they are in bed with these businesses that require cheap labor. No other reason.

Personally I don't want the borders closed. It would cost too much, be impossible to maintain and lead to the idea of "Fortress America".

Plus would they be doing it to keep others out or to keep US in? Think about it.

[peanutbrittle]

23. It's not only agribusiness

It is destroying lower middle class construction wages as well. I see it everyday

[alarimer]

94. You're right of course

It is way more than just agriculture. I live in S. Texas and, when they were renovating my apartment complex, they used a lot of what I suppose were undocumented workers. they worked 12 hours a day, seven days a week and lived 7 or 8 to a room in the efficiency apartments. It made me sick they way they exploited these people.

[proud2BlibKansan]

59. If I wanted to live with closed borders

I would move to East Germany.

[Lusted4]

14. Is he still on Hannity and Colmes three time a week? n/t

[gulfcoastliberal]

15. They're needed for jobs Americans "won't do" ie,

Coal mining, working at Wal-Mart, fast food, waiting tables, etc.

:sarcasm:

[SPKrazy]

17. God that is an uncanny resemblance!

Dumsfield and Goering.

Did you know that * was born just a few months after Hitler died?

reincarnation?

[peanutbrittle]

24. BS n/t

[SPKrazy]

16. Was this a hit and run post?

Yes unguarded borders are problems

No illegal immigrants coming here to work aren't a problem, except that they are exploited by the cheap labor forces in this country

[peanutbrittle]

25. It is a problem

they are effecting the lower middle class construction workers as well. Many who have been attempting to achieve their "American Dream" in this country for many years only to see it vanishing

[two gun sid]

34. peanutbrittle, I do not agree with you...

the wages in the construction trade are not the fault of illegals. I blame employers that would take advantage of people to get a cheap labor force. If you know of an employer using illegal laborers, turn their sorry ass in.

Fellow workers are not causing the American Dream to vanish, your boss is.

[peanutbrittle]

39. You don't know who they are. My main point is that the borders are still

porous and terrorists and weapons can still get through easy enough. This long after 9/11 and the complacency is beyond me to understand how and why.

[SPKrazy]

84. That's assuming 9/11 wasn't aided and abetted by

* and his cronies

none of the hijackers came here illegally

it is a possiblity that terrorists can and have come here illegally, and we need to close our borders, but that doesn't solve the cheap labor problem that will just push those jobs that can be moved, south of the border.

all welcome to immigrants ends when they are brown skinned from south of the border?

[barb162]

103. Actually it's both. Without the illegals and the boss,

neither can make it work. The American worker loses out. Large fines and jail time for the bosses can solve this quickly.

[two gun sid]

113. I blame the bosses totally.

[barb162]

171. I don't blame you. They are greedy bastards IMO,

they're violating the laws and they are screwing the American workforce. American citizens get laid off, go on welfare, lose their houses, go bankrupt and these bastards are hiring illegals. I will say it again, until every American citizen has a job he or she can do, I believe we shouldn't be using imported and illegal labor in that citizen's place.

[bigtree]

36. when Bill Clinton was president all incomes rose

unemployment was well below 4% and the American dream was available to all who would work for it, outside of the racism, sexism, and age discrimination which remains a major obstacle to success for a growing number of those in this country. Can't blame those who cross our border in contradiction of the law for that, however.

[peanutbrittle]

41. I'm not blaming them. I'm blaming the system a calling

for the system to fix the f'ing leak and fix the problem before our economy is destroyed and someone gets killed. I'm also questioning the complacency in addressing the problem

[bigtree]

47. someone killed?

a American 'citizen'? They're the ones doing the most killing here in the U.S.

Fomenting resentment of our neighbors is a poor way to address the needs and concerns which compel the crossing of our borders by these individuals in contradiction of our laws.

[peanutbrittle]

49. I'm talking about terrorist activity crossing our borders and

if you think it can't happen then I think you are being naive

[bigtree]

56. could happen. I still don't think the solution is the expulsion and

alienation of an entire class of people.

[LostinVA]

115. No you're not, you're talking about "illegals"

stealing your "American DReam." And I call major bullshit. The oligarchy is stealing your dream, not poor Juan Lopez and his wife Isabella, working for peanuts and exploited by employers. Who do you think picks the vegetables you eat every day? Or milks the cows your coffee cream comes from? Or cleans your neighbor's house? You keep on talking about illegals taking jobs, then thrown in talk of terrorists every now and then. Whatever. I call xenophobic crap.

[peanutbrittle]

122. So what do you propose to do...nothing?

[SPKrazy]

82. Doubt it!

Around here they work in the chicken plants, and do jobs that no one else wants to do.

seriously

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[peanutbrittle]

27. How do you know there are not?

are you willing to take that risk?

[Bluebear]

29. But, but, "no new attacks since 9/11!"

What are these "sleeper cells" waiting for?

[bpilgrim]

75. boom

more...
http://GLobalFreePress.com

peace

[Kansas Wyatt]

46. The abundance of ILLEGAL immigrants storming across the border

Is proof that Republicans are not serious about BushCo's 'War on Terror.'

It is also proof that Republicans value cheap labor more than they value keeping America safe.

Yet, some in the Democratic Party seem to think that it is every person's right to come to this country illegally, to support their family back in their home country. Meanwhile, wages and the living standard of all Working Americans are driven down by this ignored illegal entry and undercutting fraud. To those who choose to advocate illegal immigration, you have no merit unless you are willing to give up your way of life and position in society. Be advised, do not ignore this golden opportunity to halt the undercutting of the American Worker, because a lot of ground can be made up in red states.

[peanutbrittle]

51. Thank you ....and to add

to believe that there is no risk to terrorist activity due to a porous border is simply naive.

[proud2BlibKansan]

60. WHAT TERRORIST ACTIVITY????

Oklahoma City? That was some white guys who were US born and bred.

WTC? Those terrorists had visas and were here legally.

Please, do tell, what terrorist activity are you referring to?

[Horse with no Name]

61. shhhhhh

You're interrupting a perfectly good _____ talking point.
Edited to change rhetoric.:evilgrin:

[proud2BlibKansan]

64. But, but, I am wondering if I should go watch I-35

for signs of terrorist activity. I live only a few miles from the interstate. Those terrorists could come right up here from Mexico on I-35 and threaten my peaceful existence. :scared:

[Horse with no Name]

71. OMG

I guess I better buy me a gun to pertect me and my family from those durn terrists.

[LostinVA]

117. Watch out! I done heared they dress like migrant workers

Just to fool us-ins.....

[Bluebear]

85. They may be carrying almanacs, too! nt

[proud2BlibKansan]

90. OMG!! Would they be SPANISH almanacs???

:rofl:

Oh no, I have to drive I-35 to work every day. :scared:

[peanutbrittle]

87. You are being naive IMO

http://www.tucsonweekly.com/gbase/currents/Content?oid=oid:60078

Google "other than mexicans"

[proud2BlibKansan]

91. No you are the naive one

You are displaying your overt racism all through this thread. How naive of you to believe your hostile attitude would be accepted here.

How many illegal immigrants do you even know? How many illegal immigrants have you befriended? I realize you would never go over to their house - those multiple family dwellings are so unsafe you probably think you'll catch something.

Show me ONE terrorist attack by a terrorist who came into the US across the Mexican border. Just ONE.

I won't be holding my breath.

[peanutbrittle]

93. This is where I will stop. n/t

[peanutbrittle]

98. You don't believe that illegal immigration is a legitimate debate?

[proud2BlibKansan]

118. I thought you were going to stop

Sure it's a legitimate debate. But I prefer facts instead of a warped reality based on fear and racism.

Did you even read Maestro's thread that was linked here? He works with illegal immigrants. So do I. We tend to get offended when folks like you spout RW talking points in these threads. There are several facts we know that you must not be aware of:

1. This country was founded by immigrants, many of them 'illegal'. My own ancestors came here hidden in the belly of a ship from Ireland. They were escaping famine and starvation. So they were willing to risk sneaking into the USA.

2. The only genuine native Americans are Native Americans. Had they been as unwelcoming of our ancestors as you are of today's illegal immigrants, none of us who aren't Native American would even be here to have this discussion.

3. ALL of the illegal immigrants I know are here for one thing - JOBS. They don't come for health care, or education or even terrorism. They just want to work and support their families.

4. If I lived in the conditions many in Central America are living in today, I would risk everything - even my life - to come to the USA where I can make more in one hour than I can in one week (or one month) in my native country. If I had children, I would be more than willing to do so. I am willing to bet 99% of the human race would do the same thing.

5. In my area, the current wait to see an immigration official just to get the paperwork to fill out for legal status is 18 months. So even if an illegal immigrant is willing to apply for a visa and a green card, they can't just waltz in the immigration office and magically get legal papers. See #4 for the reason they come here anyway.

[peanutbrittle]

126. So what do you propose to do...nothing?

[proud2BlibKansan]

127. I celebrate the diversity in our society

and thrive in a diverse and enriched community.

I am also trying to learn to speak Spanish.

[AZBlue]

197. 5 of the WTC hijackers came through the Canadian border illegally

[skids]

68. Here's where you went wrong.

Let me give you a little schooling on discussing illegal immigration on DU. First off, understand your audience. There are people here who think the issue is serious and something must be done. There are others here that view it solely as a distraction and Republican straw horse issue. There are even the rare few who pretty much don't think we should even have borders. The issue is famous for causing flame wars.

Any time you bring up an issue that is famous for flame wars, you will immediately have a fair number of people who suspect you are just trying to cause trouble. (Especially if you have a low post count and no donor star.) That causes every word in your post to be scrutinized. Some won't even bother to do that and will just throw back a canned response.

Now as to what people see in your post, they see you refer to people who, despite breaking the law, can really only be thought of as victims in the big picture, in terms that lack a humanizing element. You have to internalize that yes, they broke the law, but when you look at their entire life it is one of desperation and poverty -- being abused by criminals on both sides of the border. Adjust your language and tone accordingly.

Don't even bother trying to salvage this thread -- people are now talking past you, not to you, because you've been pigeonholed. I doubt that anyone will seriously address the issues surrounding a physical sealing of the border -- e.g. whether it's cost effective, or even neccessary... I mean, if those reports are true (and I'm not saying they are or aren't) that just doubling the border patrol was enough to get the smugglers to pay out to corrupt Mexican military commanders to make incursions onto U.S. soil, without even taking their uniforms off for that matter, to kill border patrol agents, maybe just doing that was more effective than it looks.

[peanutbrittle]

81. I don't have a problem with being scrutinized

I appreciate your input and within many of my posts, although not in the OP I address the huminization issues. I fully understand they are desperate and have needs.

One of my main concerns is porous borders which allow weapons, terrorists and drugs

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

114. Also, having multiple replies of "you will not convince me otherwise" in a

DISCUSSION thread, LOL, will not be too well received...

[peanutbrittle]

133. I really don't care how it's received

It is my belief derived from walking in my shoes.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

134. I have no doubt that you don't care how it's received, LOL.

:hi:

[Cleita]

69. For the last time we can't secure any of the borders. We never

could. If so, there wouldn't have been British running all over the place in the American Revolution and the Japanese couldn't have bombed Pearl Harbor. I really resent these posts that blame the poorest people in the world for our self-made problems.

If you really want an end to terrorist attacks, end the Bush administration. They are the terrorists that are turning the world against us. Chasing a bunch of field workers in helicopters all over the place is not making Americans safer.

I have been reading Paul Thompson's (a DUer incidentally) book "The Terror Timeline". According to his research all the 9-11 terrorists and many more were given visas in Saudi Arabia by the CIA and other US government operatives, even over the objections of the consulates there.

I'm sorry but Mexico isn't anywhere near Saudia Arabia. Educate yourself before you post White Supremist propaganda.

[lonestarnot]

73. Egh? What's that you say, J.D. Hayworth is worthless? You got that right

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

80. Desperate, poor people, trying to survive are our "enemy".

Oh, wait, they're not "people" they're "OTM's" and (gasp) Mexicans!

Of course, they've got it made, eating up our wealth, getting great jobs, living off the poor American workers. In fact, they've got it so good, that it's a wonder that a lot of downtrodden Americans aren't trading places with them, giving up their citizenship, and sneaking back into the country for all the super benefits.

[barb162]

99. They aren't our enemy

And it makes no difference how illegals come in, off ships, off planes, walking over the border, etc. I think this country has the right to defend and patrol its borders and decide who is allowed here. Take a look at Mexico's immigration laws...they have some big fines for people who are there illegally. It's a right of every nation.

Between offshoring and hiring illegals, I think the American worker is having a real problem. Large fines and jail time for employers hiring illegals should be implemented. Whole industries of American workers have been affected by illegals and those hiring illegals. Until every American citizen who wants a job and can do the job has a job, I say no more illegals. If people want to apply to live in this country, let the legal route be the way.

[Strelnikov_]

83. Deal With Illegal Immigration By Addressing Demand, Not Supply

Meatpacking jobs (in the midwest) paid a middle class wage ($20/hr) in the 70's. These jobs provided good health care and retirement benefits because they were unionized. As was related by a worker from this era, the social contract was that it was hard, dangerous work that left most workers crippled when they retired, and the compensation reflected this.

Over the 70's and 80's non-union plants were opened, and the unionized plants closed or the unions busted. As compensation was much lower at the non-union plants, U.S. citizens abandoned the industry, and the labor void was filled with immigrant's. Since the supply of this labor is virtually unlimited, compensation and workplace safety has plummeted.

The 70's era worker, in the interview I heard, indicated that there would be no problem attracting U.S. citizens to the industry if compensation and workplace conditions were similar to the 70's.

Here is an excerpt from a study that describes the change in the meatpacking industry in Storm Lake, Iowa:

Meatpacking And The Migration Of Refugee And Immigrant Labor To Storm Lake, Iowa
http://migration.ucdavis.edu/cf/comments.php?id=154_0_2_0

The Hygrade workforce was primarily male and of European descent. Only in its last few years of operation, in the late l970s to early 1980s, did a few women work on the plant floor. The plant’s workforce was from Storm Lake and surrounding communities. Prior to the mid-1980s, Storm Lake was almost exclusively Anglo, and this homogeneity was reflected in Hygrade’s workforce. Many of Hygrade’s workers put in thirty years or more at the plant, reflecting a low turnover. For many, their jobs supported a comfortable, middle-class lifestyle. Average annual incomes were about $30,000, but some senior workers earned up to $40,000 or more in Hygrade’s last year of operation.

In October 1981, Hygrade closed its plant and Storm Lake lost five hundred jobs. Community leaders immediately set about attracting a new buyer for the plant.

In April 1982 IBP announced its purchase of the plant for $2.5 million. After extensive renovation, this became the company's first pork-packing facility (IBP previously had processed only beef.) IBP’s move into pork processing signaled a major transformation of the industry.

When IBP opened its doors in September 1982, its workforce did not resemble the old Hygrade crew. Hundreds of former Hygrade workers applied, but fewer than thirty were hired. IBP would look beyond the Storm Lake community for its laborers. Beginning wages were only $6 an hour, and health benefits become available only after six months on the job. (Today, starting wages are $7 an hour.) The new plant had higher productivity expectations than the old plant. Injury rates climbed, and high employee turnover increased the strain on local labor supplies.


It appears to me that (uncontrolled) immigrant labor fills a void that it perpetuates, low wages that make the jobs undesirable due to an oversupply of labor, the classic supply/demand relationship. All the current immigration policy of this country does is create a black market for labor, exploiting those who are here illegally, and driving down the wages and working conditions so for legal residents and immigrants the job is a step backward.

Of course, from the lofty perch of a tenured teaching position or defined benefit/trust fund annuity, the impact of the labor black market on the middle and lower class working people of this country seems to be, well, no problem at all.

What we need is a guest worker program to stop the exploitation of immigrants and end the flooding of the labor market due to uncontrolled immigration. This will address illegal immigration by dealing with demand (employers).

Some thoughts on immigration policy from John Sayles which sums up my feelings on this issue.

John Sayles
From:A People's Democratic Platform

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040802&s=forum

The Democratic platform should call for an end to the hypocrisy of our immigration policy. Our current policy, an enormously expensive cat-and-mouse game, most notably on our southern border, calls on the INS to enforce immigration laws that are openly expected to be ignored by countless US industries and private employers. Some sort of regulated guest-worker program is needed.

Once it is in place, if immigrants continue to enter the country illegally and can't find work, word will filter back and the numbers will decrease dramatically. While in our country, however, those guest workers need to be protected from exploitation--to be assured they will be paid for their work, that their working conditions will meet state and federal safety standards and that they will receive no less than the federally mandated minimum wage (which needs to be raised).

Employers would be required to withhold some percentage (perhaps the equivalent of federal taxes and Social Security) from wages to help defray the costs of the program. Penalties for hiring foreign workers outside of the program would be high enough (and sufficiently enforced) to end the black market in labor that is thriving now.

Protecting all workers in this country is an important first step toward the amendment or abolition of NAFTA and the protection of workers throughout the world.

[alfred e bush]

96. anyone thats supports open borders

must be making money off the illegals

[Horse with no Name]

102. And anyone that supports walls around our country

must be commie pinkos!

[LostinVA]

121. *yawn*

[proud2BlibKansan]

135. Or they just must enjoy living in a free country

instead of behind an iron curtain.

[RB TexLa]

104. Some things never change

"Only people that want the Irish here want their labor, ship them back"

"These free slaves are going to take all the jobs, ship them back"

"The Japanese are spies, I don't care that they were born here, lock them up"



Different century, different group, same message.

[LostinVA]

124. Yup -- my mom's family si Irish, and I've heard the stories

Just like this, with the "Papist" bigotry thrown in, just for extra giggles.

[proud2BlibKansan]

137. Allow me to add this to your post:

[tyedyeto]

105. Where do you live?

I live near the border. These people are trying to provide for their families.

Have you heard about Cubans? If they set foot on American soil, they are allowed to stay. If they are on a boat or pier, they go back. But if a Mexican crosses the border (always on soil) they are immediately deported. What's the difference? Don't give me the usual crap about people being persecuted in Cuba. They are all coming here for one reason...economics.

[peanutbrittle]

109. The Mexican border is the most porous and the most at risk

I agree.... double standard

[tyedyeto]

123. JD Hayworth is still a repuke of the worst sort.

His district doesn't even border Mexico altho he is from Arizona.

I know a couple of people who tried to help immigrants seek medical help after their 'coyote' abandoned them, leaving them with no water or food (they would have died). In the pukes eyes, a dead immigrant is better than an alive one. Guess who is now being persecuted? That's right, those who were trying to get them to medical aid.

[peanutbrittle]

131. I equivocate Hayworth with guys like Feeney of FL

not feeling people. Not compassionate conservatives.

The persecution you describe is wrong. That is sad

[proud2BlibKansan]

139. Allow me to answer your question:

In La-La Land. :)

[tyedyeto]

140. I'm ROTFLMAO

I believe you may have something there!

[Nikki Stone 1]

141. Borders that keep others out can keep us IN...

Just sayin...

[mitchtv]

143. hopefully OK will subsidize the $9b cross border economy

to the border states, with a raise in state taxes.Poor OK , such a burden. How about Jail and confiscation of employers of illegals? Much more effective.

[Innocent Smith]

145. what would you suggest

Hadrian's wall?

[nomatrix]

151. Sheila Jackson Lee {D} TX, on illegal immigration

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4817071

She just took a tour of the U.S. Mexican border. "The problem is enormous. We in the federal government have failed the American people."


In the last 5 yrs, we have not generated jobs.
In cities where you are seeing high illegal immigration, there is a battle between the African American minority and illegals for the jobs there are.


The same DUers attacked me on this issue with a great deal of self righteousness. I feel it is ignorance not to look at the situation.
Some areas of this country have become overloaded with illegal immigrants who have over taxed the citizens of those counties.

[peanutbrittle]

158. Thank you..I'm listening to this now

and then am going to bed....I'm worn out now...lol

[Cleita]

182. Sheila Jackson said that we needed better funding for the

Border Patrol to do their job. She expressed sympathy for the undocumented workers who were often left to die in the desert. She stated that those border communities were unable to meet the challenge without federal funding.

She is looking for rational solutions to the problems, not a bunch of racist Minutemen vigilantes patrolling the border. I really liked that Bill Spriggs guy. He said it like it was, that the labor market was weak because of the globalization of our economy and our middle class jobs going to other countries.

So it appears that the real problem is not starving workers coming here, but our jobs going overseas making our workers starving workers competing for the few jobs that are left.

Too bad that the person who posted that link didn't listen to it carefully.

[nomatrix]

202. Nice slap, Clieta.

"Too bad the person who posted that link didn't listen to it carfully"

Hmmm, I wonder what it was I didn't hear?

Here's a copy and paste of his words before congress with a link.


Testimony before congress. Bill Spriggs, 1999
http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/judiciary/hju63122.000/hju63122_0.HTM


"I start my testimony with a quotation from President Kennedy, who said, ''For the great enemy of the truth is often not the lie, deliberate, contrived, and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Too often we hold fast to the cliches of our forebears. We subject all facts to a prefabricated set of interpretations. We enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.'' I don't think there is any area in public policy today where this is more of an issue than it is with respect to immigration: there is a lack of concern for real thought over what this policy is bringing about.

If immigration were small, who would care? But immigration today is a major factor in the growth of the U.S. population. The percentage of the population that is foreign-born has increased from 4.4 percent to 9.7 percent since 1965. It is an increase from 8.6 to 25.8 million people.

In the process, immigration has become a key feature of American life. In fact, Bureau of the Census has projected immigration will be the most important factor influencing the growth of the American population over the next 50 years. That fact alone ought to be significant enough to hold an enormous number of hearings on."

-snip-

"In assessing the political debacle of the immigration reform movement in the mid-1990s, political scientists James Gimpel and James Edwards wrote in 1998: ''The voice of the people has had little impact on the tone or direction of the immigration debate in Washington.'' They point out that despite the extensive research findings that show the need for significant legislative changes and that public opinion polls consistently show that the citizenry want these changes to take place, it makes no difference to the professional politicians. The myth that immigration has only benefits is perpetuated by special interest groups who have no concern for the national interest. Immigration reform, however, is not going to go away. The issue continues to fester. For as George Borjas and Richard Freeman, the key authors of the labor market portion of the aforementioned NRC report, have written in response to the gross distortions of their work by the pro-immigration lobby and the media:

Immigration creates winners and losers. Low income workers and taxpayers in immigrant states lose; those who employ immigrants or use immigrant services win, as do the immigrants themselves. The critical issue is how much do we care about the wellbeing of immigrants compared with the Americans who win and the Americans who lose?

Immigration policy is causing wage and income inequities and it is distorting the nation's labor market. Immigration is not a ''free lunch.'' Neither is it fair. Its costs are disproportionately borne by the poor and the most vulnerable in the labor force. It is past time to rein-in this rogue instrument of public policy."


This link has many speakers before congress.
This is 1999 after a good economy.
There are many historical references to mass immigration hurting the African American worker. That includes all immigration from other countries, as you ask in your next post.

I would like to discuss this mass illegal immigration issue.

[Cleita]

203. Since I posted that I have accessed and am reading

many of Bill Spriggs posts especially the ones on SS but that isn't what this post is about however you might want to read this one that he wrote in 1991.

http://www.epi.org/content.cfm/epi_virlib_briefingpapers_1991_usjobsa

It explains a lot about why we are here now.

[Cleita]

181. Has she mentioned the other illegal immigrants, the European

ones who are also taking jobs from not only African Americans, but White Americans? Has Sheila checked that out?

I am surprised at her and will be writing her a letter about this.

[july302001]

175. yep

The problem is the U.S. Chamber of Commerce is hustling for sub-minimum-wage labor!

I am a U.S.-born citizen who is FED UP with competing in the job market vs. the illegals, in a GAME created by huge multi-national corporations.

The United States needs to protect ITS OWN citizens....or WE might consider moving out....

[pointblank]

184. I dont like to get into these illegal immigration arguments

and I haven't the time to read every post here today, but is it not fair to say that with this administration constantly on "terror" alerts and the fact that they say it is only a matter of time before we are hit again, that logic would dictate that if this imminent danger truly does exist, then we would have shut down our borders after 9/11 and would have kept them shut down to this day?

I think that question is one that hasn't been addressed enough. If we are at such risk, why the porous borders and lack of funding to protect them? Doesn't make sense to me.

[hogwyld]

185. This won't be popular here on DU

But I and my wife have a different perspective. I am a citizen by birth, and my wife was a Mexican citizen. When we got married, we went through the whole hoop jumping exercises for her to be here LEGALLY. As of 12/1/05, she is now a naturalized U.S. citizen. However, she's probably more anti-illegal than frickin' Tom Tancredo since she has to compete with the illegals for jobs. And yes, she knows how to spot fake docs as she used to work for the Mexican govt. Go ahead everyone and attack away. But I hope some are open mindes enough to another perspective.

[AZBlue]

198. Excellent post. Thank you for sharing.

Since I'm in AZ I see many new American citizens with the same feelings as your wife. Congrats on her new citizenship!! I'm sorry it was such a hassle - I think it should be a bit easier, especially once one is married to a US citizen.

[hogwyld]

200. Thanks! Nice to know

Not everyone here is advocating open borders and unhindered immigration for all. Do not want to jump off the cliff with the rest. I've got a friend that lives in Chandler, and he had to get out of the construction trades due to the illegals. Something has to be done, or it's all going to come crashing down. Here in San Jose, they've closed one major hospital due to the staggering losses it has incurred. On a bright note, my wife said she would not change the citizenship procedures as because of their arduousness, makes her appreciate it that much more. BTW, she registered to vote the very next day!

[Thirtieschild]

187. We're something like 70 miles north of the border

and I've never seen even a portable checkpoint on the highway out of the border town. We see lots of Border Patrol vehicles both in southern AZ and NM, but the officers at the checkpoints we drive through on I-10 just wave us by. I've often wondered if they ever stop or check anyone. If I were a terrorist intent on entering the country, I think I'd opt for a small border town or, even better, an empty field.

[Balbus]

190. Janet Napolitano is going to steal J.D.'s thunder.

She wants to put the National Guard on the border and bill the federal government for it. What a woman!!!

Benson says it real well...

[HughLefty1]

191. JD Hayworth is slime...but nonetheless

I lived many years in Arizona and the past 12 in Los Angeles.

Illegal immigration is a huge national problem. Most of my middle class friends in the construction industry have left California because they can no longer make a decent living. Too many unscrupulous companies prefer to hire illegals. Under this administration it has just been too easy to hire illegal aliens.

Other major issues have evolved due to the illegal problem. One such problem is emergency rooms are closing at an alarming rate in this state. Prison and school crowding are other such issues.

* likes to be known as the anti-terror president but he closes his eyes to any potential terrorists that could be crossing our borders. It's just ironic how these right wing types choose to ignore this huge problem. Of course they are the business owners who are profiting off the backs of the illegal workers. You know if a democrat was in office and had the same *Bush laissez-faire attitude on this issue, the righties would be screaming from the rooftops...hypocrites.

For those who approve of illegal immigration you should understand it is the human traffickers on the Mexican side and the business owners on the American side who are benefitting at the expense of the immigrants and the American taxpayers.

[dryan]

199. I am sensitive...

to the problems in Latin America that force these poor people to come to the United States but I also think that this is one of the reasons that the governments of those same countries don't try to improve their economies in order to make life better for their citizens. That said, the illegal problem has become a national problem for us! The hospitals in the southwest are at the breaking point because of caring for illegals (didn't anyone read the article in Time magazine about a year ago--it was a real eye opener). And by the way, people that want to enter illegally from places that are on the State Department's terror list, fly to Mexico and come into the USA that way. Also, many illegals are under the impression that once they have gotten into the USA and traveled more than 20 miles, the INS will stop looking for them. Why doesn't Bush ask his 'close friend' Fox to help with this?

[peanutbrittle]

201. I'm beginning to wonder if Fox doesn't have something

on the BFEE that could blow their world apart so the BFEE has to tread lightly with Fox.

Just a thought and I have seen that theory mentioned before in an off mainstream article, you know, one of those "conspiracy nuts" ;)

[Maestro]

206. A few quick links that debunk some of the anti-immigrant

fervor.

SPL info

More myths explained

[Jim Sagle]

208. Fuckin' A.