A simple Up/Down Poll on Israel and Lebanon...

[Junkdrawer]

[Junkdrawer]

1. .

[liberalhistorian]

2. Get ready for the wackos who'll scream

that anyone who didn't vote in favor of Israel's actions is a supporter of Hezbollah and/or Hamas.

[Junkdrawer]

8. One of the weaknesses of any discussion board...

is that a small, determined minority can make it seem that an issue is evenly divided when, in fact, it is not.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

16. Which is what makes polls so...

...useful, and why the small determined minortity dislikes them so.

[Poll_Blind]

19. Or _worse_. n/t

PB

[truebrit71]

23. Either that are we're all anti-semitic...

:eyes:

[liberalhistorian]

58. Yes, well,

that too, of course!

[Junkdrawer]

3. .

[Sherman A1]

4. Best of luck

With THE hot potato issue of the day!!!!

[JeffR]

5. ..

:popcorn:

[Little Star]

6. I'll bring the......

:popcorn:

[SmokingJacket]

7. I support NO actions against civilians.

Period.

[LWolf]

9. For the record, let me be clear.

I do not support Israel's actions.

That does NOT mean that I support Hezbollah.

I support neither.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

14. You sound very much like myself

I neither support the leaders of Israel actions nor Hezbollah any more than I support bush.

[Critters2]

20. What a great avatar!

Most cool!

[Zodiak]

67. Yup, murderers are murderers

Whether in uniform, out of uniform, hiding in the bushes, or madly sitting in an office ordering others to their deaths, I support none of them.

I do support killing in self-defense, but I also know what self-defense looks like, and this episode isn't it.

[TahitiNut]

50. "Two wrongs don't make a right."

It was nearly 60 years ago that I learned that. It seems you learned it, too. I think it's amazing so many (on DU, even) haven't. What kind of fool thinks the world is a zero-sum game? (Imbeciles.)

[Zodiak]

68. Zero-sum game?

I have heard this term a lot, but I fail to grasp what it means (I could nod my head dumbly, but that doesn't do it for me). Care to type a line to enlighten me as to what that term means?

And yes, I am serious. Not doubting your assertions.

[TahitiNut]

69. It's a pretty common term in game theory, often applied to politics.

In short, zero-sum games are games where the amount of winnable goods (or resources or tokens) is fixed. Whatever is gained by one participant, is therefore lost by the other participant - the sum of all gains and losses is zero. Thus, the nomination of "zero-sum." The common example of a zero-sum game is chess. Chinese checkers is another.

For an example of a non-zero-sum game, one could refer to the "Glass Bead Game" from Magister Ludi by Herman Hesse.

There are a class of games, however, where they are zero-sum if the players don't cooperate and non-zero-sum if they do. Monopoly is a simple example of such a game. "The Prisoner's Dilemma" is a (potentially more disturbing/educational) example of another such 'game' - showing a life circumstance as a game.

The power of game theory is in its applicability to real life challenges and conundrums. It can be applied to everything from the stock market to geopolitics.

For a brief overveiw of non-zero-sum games, see http://cse.stanford.edu/class/sophomore-college/projects-98/game-theory/nonzero.html
An interesting little essay is at http://www.beyondintractability.org/essay/sum/

__________________________________________

I respect and appreciate it that you asked. I had to stop and compose a succinct and clear answer that, in a Nutshell, portrayed the seminal role of cooperation.

The question we must ask ourselves is whether our real objective is to cause the other player to lose - potentially everyting - or to gain ourselves even if others do as well. Some tend to think that competition always means win-lose. I don't think so. I believe that competition should mean win-win.
My sport in college was swimming. :evilgrin:

[Zodiak]

70. Thanks

very informative, and now I do not have to nod my head dumbly.

[cboy4]

10. I cringe when I hear "up or down" vote! LOL - - - - It sounds too much

like republican-talk!! "He deserves and up or down vote..." Yikes.

[TygrBright]

11. I can't vote in this "simple poll" because the issue at hand...

...is not a "simple" issue.

Trying to reduce the mess that is the Middle East to any kind of coherency may feel good but it has no real effect, unless it be to delude us that it can be "managed."

I have given up on pretending I know anything about anything there, and I've read libraries' worth of material, followed news stories, talked to many people.

They are all correct in all of their contentions. They are all justified in all of their feelings. All of what all of them want is 'legitimate' in the sense of meeting their needs, satisfying their sense of what is right, redressing the wrongs of history, advancing the cause of righteousness and protecting those who have been/could be victimized.

They are all wrong in all of their methods. None of them is justified in any of their actions. None of what any of them are doing is 'legitimate' in the sense of meeting their needs, satisfying their sense of what is right, redressing the wrongs of history, advancing the cause of righteousness and protecting those who have been/could be victimized.

I can do nothing productive or positive for any of them in any way, except pray privately, helplessly, that 'everything will work out and the suffering will abate.' Nothing I could advocate to any U.S. policy maker who represents me would be in the slightest degree effective for resolving any of the myriad wrongs and problems existing among these neighbors of ours, who share our world and the resources upon which we all depend. Nothing I could say to any fellow-citizen about this situation would change anyone's mind or produce any greater enlightenment or lead to any action that would produce useful results.

So I pray. But I can't answer 'simple' polls about situations so complex that the sum total of human ingenuity appears inadequate to resolve them fairly and effectively for all.

uncooperatively,
Bright

[Junkdrawer]

12. .

[MarkDevin]

13. You lousy, rotten anti-semite!

;-)

[mmonk]

15. Define On balance

[Junkdrawer]

17. Pretend the issue was on a referendum....

Like all issues, you may have complex thoughts, but you were only being asked yea or nay.

[mmonk]

21. Now that makes it tough.

One could be defined falsely no matter which choice they chose.

[malaise]

28. This is about proportionality

On balance I cannot support the slaughter of the Lebanese by 10 - 1.

Man to man is so unjust
Yah don't know who to trust - Marley

[KoKo]

81. //////

[catmother]

18. i can't vote on this issue. i'm really sorry that innocents are

being killed and maimed but organizations like Hizbollah have to be stopped. just last night they threatened harm to the US.

i wish everyone in the world could sit down and talk about their differences instead of resorting to violence.

[KoKo]

22. So...you would Vote for DIPLOMACY...Joe Wilson was a Diplomat and

look what happened to him! Don't you understand that with the BUSHIES THERE IS NO DIPLOMACY! VIOLENCE! TERROR TRUMPED UP and KILLING AND RAPE is ALL they understand.

You keep posting about your Jewish friends that you knew in NY who were (in your opinion) fighting FOR THEIR LIVES...supporting ISREAL's Right to EXIST!

Yet you say you now live in a place where you don't know any Jews.

Maybe you should report about what it's like living in a "non-Jewish" area of the US?

Thanks..because your perspective would be interesting.

[catmother]

35. why are you so hostile? i never said my jewish friends in new

york were fighting for their lives. i said that they were all "liberals".

[KoKo]

25. And WHY would Hezbollah threaten the US.......??? Think about it?

With Neo-Cons ruling our Government and our Constitution BROKEN...just why would WE be vulnerable to TERRORISTS?

Ask BUSH and his supporters back to Nixon about our FOREIGN POLICY! You might get an answer....or maybe NOT...because SUPPORTING TERRA..is all they have left in their BANKRUPT FOREIGN POLICY with IRAQ BLEEDING the US DRY!

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blonndee]

38. Hey, that is out of line.

The poster did not say that nor come remotely close to it. You need to retract that comment.

[catmother]

40. that's between me and the poster who is being hostile and

antagonistic. i will not retract it.

[blonndee]

41. Nope, it's offensive to everyone who shares her sentiments

and it's disingenous and promotes hatred. If it were only between the two of you it would be via PM.

[catmother]

42. take it however you want but that's the impression i'm getting

from many on the DU -- america is such a terrible place. yes we have a terrible, vile administration, but our country was once great and hopefully will be again. i'm an american first and a democrat second.

[blonndee]

47. I think most people agree with you, including me

and that's why you should not be saying things like that. It's not fair to equate opposition to Israel's actions to supporting terrorism or hating America. That's what the RWers did to us on Iraq, and it's just as wrong to do it here. It's fine to debate, but the namecalling and accusations are really not helping anyone, don't you agree?

[catmother]

48. yes. you're right. i think we've all been very sensitive and hot

headed lately. if we fight among ourselves as democrats we'll never win the country back. so if anyone has been offended, my apologies.

[blonndee]

51. Thank you for the conversation.

See, diplomacy CAN work! :pals:

[TahitiNut]

46. Gee, I think DU inherited posts from Free Republic. Crossed wires?

:eyes:

[catmother]

49. i'm not going to respond to that. see my last post.

[TahitiNut]

52. You gotta be joking.

:rofl: :eyes: :rofl: :eyes: :rofl:

[blonndee]

55. Here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1676460&mesg_id=1677220

[catmother]

57. my response to you.

:puke: :bounce: :eyes: :boring:

[Clarkie1]

24. Along with 100 U.S. senators, yes. nt

[Junkdrawer]

26. Truth be told, it was that vote that motivated this poll. n/t

[blonndee]

27. And we know how well the Senate represents us, don't we.

I like your poll.

[Clarkie1]

30. In this case, the senate represents me 100%. nt

[blonndee]

33. Good for you. Too bad for the rest of us, and Lebanon which

continues to suffer. OH WELL! :eyes:

[Clarkie1]

34. I believe the senate represents the views of the vast majority

of the American people on this issue.

Americans understand the difference between right and wrong, and between those who are attacking and those who are responding to attack.

[blonndee]

36. The vast majority of Americans supported invading Iraq.

Does that indicate that they understand "right and wrong"? Does that show you that they understood "those who are attacking and those who are responding to attack"? Because, if I remember correctly, Iraq did not attack us. And neither did Lebanon attack Israel.

The Senate is full of paid whores who will "represent" those who have the most money, and those who can get them re-elected. THEN the media tells us what "our" views are.

[Clarkie1]

62. Israel is attacking Hezbollah, not Lebanon.

Unfortunately, Hezbollah is surrounded by Lebanon, but the reality can't be changed instantaneously. Hopefully, the good that will come out of this is that reality will be changed. It will require a political, diplomatic, and military solution.

[blonndee]

65. Wrong, they are attacking Lebanon.

Hezbollah just happens to be there. In the U.S., they have SWAT teams to bring out (or take out) hostage-takers and other criminals who may be a threat to others. They don't start bombing (or shooting up, if that's more appropriate) the whole neighborhood or city.

[MarkDevin]

75. Exactly!

Is it Israel's fault if all those silly Lebanese civilians keep getting in the way?

[Little Star]

43. If you are right about this then

we are in worse shape then I've feared. Who supports killing anyone by anyone????? This shit about every thing being solved by war is WRONG and two wrongs don't make a right. How many innocents from both sides have to die before they decide to use diplomacy. Every day there is no war is another day someone lives!

[Clarkie1]

61. How do you negotiate with someone who wants you destroyed? nt

[Junkdrawer]

44. Actually, it means that the Senate believes that the vast majority...

will forget their vote, but AIPAC and other supporters of Israel would NEVER forget a NO vote.

[Clarkie1]

63. You are entitled to your position.

But it is a minority position, and a small minority at that.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

74. self delete.

[MarkDevin]

76. Many things we now take for granted started out as "minority opinions."

To name but a few:

Breaking away from England

Abolishing slavery

Workplace safety regulations

Organized labor

Sanitation laws

Women's suffrage

Child labor laws

The direct election of senators


God bless those small minorities!

[KoKo]

29. YES! but to WHAT? Which way are you saying you voted on this narrow

Poll?

[Clarkie1]

31. I support Israel's right to do what they have to do. nt

[KoKo]

53. Does this mean you Support AMERICA's RIGHT to Do What it HAS TO?

:shrug: Could you give a little more of your opinion on this..because right now I see you as a "Freeper Intruder" ...a "Stealth Plant" here to disrupt.

I'd like to hear you defend your ideas. THANKS!

[Clarkie1]

59. I've posted my thoughts on this issue repeatedly over the past week.

eom

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

32. Is that supposed to pass for...

...a compelling argument? Same bunch that brought us the Patriot Act in case you've forgotten.

[EFerrari]

66. So, do you know how much a senator goes for, nowadays?

:puke:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

39. Seriously now...

What sort of goof supports Israel's actions in Lebanon? All over the world people are outraged about Israel's actions in Lebanon. Even Israelis.

[Sapere aude]

45. Can you had a neither. I don't support either side. I am against

the aggression of both sides. Both should call a truce and get back to finding a way to live in peace in the region. I know I am bat shit crazy for thinking this.

[Junkdrawer]

54. Here's a link to the mirror poll...

Post 'NOT' in both...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1676619&mesg_id=1676619

[Clarkie1]

64. You aren't crazy for thinking that at all.

Trouble is one side wants peace and the other side doesn't.

That's the conundrum.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

73. Your fellow DUers have been polled...

...asking whether they believe Israeli leadership sincerely wants a fair and even handed negotiated peace with their Palestinian neighbors. 44 of 56 respondents didn't seem to think so:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x136185

[KoKo]

56. WOW! So far...that's some "serious disconnect.," from NeoCons...

and that's AMAZING! I thought they RULED? :shrug:

[Clarkie1]

60. This resolution has nothing to do with neo-con policy.

You are confusing apples and oranges.

[LSK]

71. can someone send this to the Dems in Congress?

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MarkDevin]

77. "Fucking Arabs?"

Are you related to the person who referred (in another discussion) to Joe Lieberman as "Jew boy?"

I'm beginning to think DU may not be the right place for me.

[tnlefty]

78. Hi MarkDevin. There are disruptors, some of whom rack up many posts

before they show their true selves. I didn't see the post that was deleted, but although I don't particularly care for Sen. LIEberman these days, what you referenced is clearly out of bounds here. I hope that you stick around. Tense times and things get a bit dicey here, too.

:hi:

[Voltaire99]

79. Sorry, but who cares what you think when party elites are unanimous?

Hillary...Boxer...Lieberman... And now even Russ shows he knows how to march in lockstep.

While everyone here holds opinions on Israel's incursion, only one point of view matters to the party leadership. But that's "representation" for you!


SATURDAY, July 15, 2006, 4:29 p.m.
By Craig Gilbert
Feingold defends Israel's attack response

Platteville - U.S. Sen. Russ Feingold today defended Israel's right to protect itself amid the escalating conflict along its borders, saying, "I don't think any country is going to let their soldiers be kidnapped, transported, killed ... without a serious response."

Feingold said he would not second-guess "whether that response was exactly as it should be."

Said Feingold: "My hope would be that Israel would use as much restraint as possible .... It's in Israel's interest and the interests of peace. But I do think Israel has not only a right but also a responsibility to respond to the Hezbollah attack."

http://www.jsonline.com/watch/?watch=1&date=7/15/2006&i...

[Selatius]

80. I support Israel's right to defend itself.

I support Israel's right to stop militants from firing Katyusha rockets and Kassam rockets at Israeli towns and cities. I support their right to find them and destroy them and uproot the rocket launchers and attack the militants who are behind the attacks.

But I did not support Israel when it bombed the only international airport in Lebanon. I did not support Israel when it began blowing up power stations, hitting gas stations and fuel depots, attacking the seaports, levying a naval blockade against the whole country, blowing up bridges and roads, and attacking other civilian infrastructure. Over 200 civilians are dead now in Lebanon as a result of this overreaction.