Excusing hostility to Israel’s right to exist:

[Behind the Aegis]

“Left” anti-semitism is no myth

The charge of “anti-semitism” is thrown at critics of Israel by the crassest of the uncritical, and sometimes paranoid, apologists for Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians?

This is true.

And therefore? Therefore, there is no anti-semitism; where just and valid criticisms are made of Israel, there can be no anti-semitism, even if the conclusion from the criticism is that the Israeli Jewish nation should be destroyed; and therefore, there is no anti-semitism in the stark root-and-branch antagonism to Israel which dominates the hard left, and is now spreading rapidly through the rest of the left.

That is what David Clark argued in the Guardian (6 March), under the headline: “Accusations of anti-semitic chic are poisonous intellectual thuggery”. He is a former Blair government adviser — and what did he do in that capacity to help the Palestinians? But he is hot and strong now against Israel.

His core argument is that what is denounced as left-wing anti-semitism is not anti-semitism, because it is thoroughly justified. It is not a self-betrayal by the left, but the result of a proper application of its good, basic, traditional instincts.

more

[Bonobo]

1. Jews DO have big noses! It's not Anti-Semitic to say so!

[greccogirl]

8. No, it's

just racist. If I said "black people have big lips" would you believe that isn't a racist comment?

[Bonobo]

13. B, but...they do!

Anyway, I was trying to be sarcastic and still am...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

70. Kate Hudson And Winona Ryder Are Smoking

and neither have big noses.

[cracksquirrel]

114. *sigh*

And out of the woodwork they come... congratulations on proving OP's point in the very first reply.

On edit: now recallibrating my sarcasm-o-tron...

[LittleClarkie]

124. So do bonobos

But I am not anti-bonobo.

[Erika]

2. Israel has attacked Lebanon innocents

The Lebanon government was democratically elected.

[rockymountaindem]

3. So was Israel's

What's your point?

[manic expression]

37. Innocents are being killed

that cannot be justified. Perhaps that was the point (I don't know, but it is a point to be recognized).

[fujiyama]

19. And your point is?

[jonnyblitz]

78. the POINT is not exactly rocket science.

Innocents are being killed. NOT a difficult concept to comprehend last I checked. :eyes:

You are ok with this or something?

[bluestateguy]

4. We do have anti-Semites on the Left

And it's time we realize that.

I too am a critic of Israeli foreign policy from time to time, though I strongly support Israel's right to exist as a sovereign nation, and I deplore people who make lame ass excuses for suicide bombers who blow up buses and kill dozens of people. They are terrorists, period. Yet, Israel's actions in response are often heavy handed and in some cases blatantly bigoted.

Fair criticisms of Israel should never be categorized as anti-Semitism, any more than fair criticisms of an African dictatorship should not be deemed racism against black people. I think criticism of Israel only becomes anti-Semitic when the critic suggests that the Holocaust was either a myth or didn't happen at all, or when the critic reverts to old stereotypes about the trustworthiness of Jewish people, or fabricated historical tall tales ("the Jooooos ran the American slave trade!!").

Anti-Semites on the Right fall into two camps: anti-Israel, anti-Jewish isolationists like Pat Buchanan, and neo-conservative fundamentalist Christians who are strong political supporters of Israel, but only because of that whole "Rapture" thing. These fundies all believe that the Jews are going to hell.

But we have anti-Semites on the Left too, and as much as that truth may hurt, we have to face it.

[Karmakaze]

14. You do know that Israel was formed...

I too am a critic of Israeli foreign policy from time to time, though I strongly support Israel's right to exist as a sovereign nation, and I deplore people who make lame ass excuses for suicide bombers who blow up buses and kill dozens of people. They are terrorists, period. Yet, Israel's actions in response are often heavy handed and in some cases blatantly bigoted.

You do know that Israel was formed out of the very terroristic acts you are talking about, don't you? You have heard of the Stern Gang, Irgun and Haganah? You do know they indescriminately SLAUGHTERED Arabs in Palestine to ensure a Jewish majority, don't you?

How can you DEPLORE the very acts that formed the nation of Israel, then justify "strongly support(ing) Israel's right to exist"? The Palestinians of today are not doing ANYTHING the Jews of the 1940's didn't do. If the Jews had the right to form Israel, then the Palestinians have the right to destroy it.

[fujiyama]

21. Thanks for proving

that "progressives" can also live in the past and justify every terrible thing a person does because of some terrible thing that happened to them or their family 50+ years ago.

Do you have an honest point in attacking someone for making a reasonable statement?

[The Magistrate]

33. If You Are Going To Argue The History, Sir

You are going to have to take into account the whole history of Arab Nationalist excesses and massacres, commencing with the Abu Musa riots in Jerusalem in 1920, similar mobbings in Jaffa and Hebron and other points throughout the following decade, the history of the Arab Revolt in the thirties, the alliance of the Grand Mufti with the Germans in the Second World War, and a variety of other matters you have left out of your rather thread-bare expostulation above....

[Karmakaze]

87. Of course you are ignoring the fact...

That all of those events came AFTER the Zionists began taking measures to deprive Palestinians of their rights. For example the Balfour Declaration of 1917. Remember before this the Arabs had received a pledge from the British that they would be granted self-determination.

Over the years, the Arabs, still expecting to be granted self-determination in the lands they had occupied for nearly 2000 years watched as the British allowed unlimited Jewish immigration at the behest of the Zionist Orgnaisation, with the intent to form a Jewish State. They were never asked if they agreed to this, and in fact made clear they didn't, but it was forced upon them. What started out as a small minority of no more than 10% of the population being Jewish began to increase dramatically.

All over the Middle East there were revolts by Arabs in search of self-determination, and in most states that is in fact what they received (as promised) but Palestine had been promised to the Jews - Jews who had not lived there for over a thousand years in most cases - and the Arab Palestinians became incensed.

They had every right to be.

On 2 November 1918, non-violent protests marked the first anniversary of the Balfour Declaration. As early as April 1920, while Palestine was still under military government, anti-Jewish riots broke out just as the San Remo Conference was finalizing the allocation of the Palestine Mandate to Great Britain. The report of the military commission of inquiry was not published at the time, but was referred to in the report of the Royal Commission in 1937. The underlying causes of the riots were cited as:

"The Arabs' disappointment at the non-fulfilment of the promises of independence which they believed to have been given them in the War.

"The Arabs' belief that the Balfour Declaration implied a denial of the right of self-determination and their fear that the establishment of a national home would mean a great increase of Jewish immigration and would lead to their economic and political subjection to the Jews." 85/

Within a year of Palestine's coming under civil administration, riots again broke out in May 1921, spreading from a clash between Jewish factions. There were 95 dead and 220 injured. A formal inquiry commission, headed by Sir Thomas Haycraft, Chief Justice of Palestine, found:

"The fundamental cause of the Jaffa riots and the subsequent acts of violence was a feeling among the Arabs of discontent with, and hostility to, the Jews, due to political and economic causes, and connected with Jewish immigration, and with their conception of Zionist policy as derived from Jewish exponents.

"The immediate cause of the Jaffa riots on the 1st May was an unauthorized demonstration of Bolshevik Jews, followed by its clash with an authorized demonstration of the Jewish Labour Party.

"The racial strife was begun by Arabs, and rapidly developed into a conflict of great violence between Arabs and Jews, in which the Arab majority, who were generally the aggressors, inflicted most of the casualties.

"The outbreak was not premeditated or expected, nor was either side prepared for it; but the state of popular feeling made a conflict likely to occur on any provocation by any Jews ..." 86/

The Origins and Evolution of the Palestine Problem: 1917-1988 - CEIRPP, DPR study, part I: 1917-1947 - DPR publication (30 June 1990)

There is much more in that paper about the events you mention, and they all stem from the fact that Arabs in Palestine were being denied what they had been promised while watching their land be given to foreign Jews. Of course they would be angry as hell. This continued right up to the start of World War II.

Suddenly there was a change - Britain now needed the help of the Arab States, and it knew that they were totally opposed to Palestine being handed to the Jews. This resulted in a reversal of their previous policies - and the formation of the Jewish Terrorist groups. What they were no longer being given by Britain, they decided to take by force. Previous to this there was no need to carry out terrorist acts because they were being given everything they wanted.

When this all began, Jews made up 10% of the population of Palestine. By the end of the Second World War, they were nearly 30% and increasing rapidly.

Arnold J. Toynbee who, before becoming recognized as an eminent world historian had dealt directly with the Palestine Mandate in the British Foreign Office, wrote in 1968:

"All through those 30 years, Britain (admitted) into Palestine, year by year, a quota of Jewish immigrants that varied according to the strength of the respective pressures of the Arabs and Jews at the time. These immigrants could not have come in if they had not been shielded by a British chevaux-de-frise. If Palestine had remained under Ottoman Turkish rule, or if it had become an independent Arab state in 1918, Jewish immigrants would never have been admitted into Palestine in large enough numbers to enable them to overwhelm the Palestinian Arabs in this Arab people's own country. The reason why the State of Israel exists today and why today 1,500,000 Palestinian Arabs are refugees is that, for 30 years, Jewish immigration was imposed on the Palestinian Arabs by British military power until the immigrants were sufficiently numerous and sufficiently well-armed to be able to fend for themselves with tanks and planes of their own. The tragedy in Palestine is not just a local one; it is a tragedy for the world, because it is an injustice that is a menace to the world's peace."

Now, tell me again why I am wrong to believe that the State of Israel was formed on injustice and should therefore be removed and replaced with a new nation that is just to all Palestinians - Arab and Jew alike.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

90. Your casual support for the slaughter of innocent immigrants...

...is exceptionally disturbing. However, that's what I've come to expect from people who still try to argue, as you do, that Israel has no right to exist, despite the fact that the entire civilised world disagrees for a variety of extremely good reasons of morality and social justice.

[The Magistrate]

102. In Other Words, Sir

You cannot find any incidents of violence prior to those mentioned, that defined the Arab Nationalist program of political action, and thus cannot substantiate what you attempted to suggest, that Jews introduced violence into the matter, nor that the foundation of Israel was dependent on irregular violence.

States, Sir, whatever the details of their foundation, are "removed" only by military defeat of catastrophic extent. That is not going to occur in this instance, and clarity on the question is required: as a practical fact, what you are urging as a "solution" to the question can only be achieved by a good deal of killing, and so must fail of being any just result. You are free to advocate this, of course, but should really do so openly if you choose to do it.

[MADem]

50. Well, we didn't exactly get greeted as liberators when we arrived

on the shores of America, either and worked our way from sea to shining sea. This country was founded on more than a few acts of brutality and aggression.

The people running the government now in Israel were not the people who did those things sixty years ago.

And they aren't going to pack up and leave, any more than we are. They're there, just like we are here. So we have two choices here; either reconcile the simple fact that Israel is a nation, or try to push the Jews into the sea.

I don't go for that latter option. Unfortunately, there are some terror/resistance groups that have that option engraved into their charters.

[bluestateguy]

64. I have no idea what you are talking about

and sifting through your moral relativist, phony intellectual bibble-babble seems like a waste of time.

[rman]

79. But not in significant numbers, unless you use a very broad definition of

anti-semitism.

[Wonk]

5. False dichotomy. Black and white thinking.

re: Either criticism of Israel is "anti-semitic" or "there is no anti-semitism".

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/false-dilemma.html

[Alexodin]

6. Its not a black and white world there are shades of grey

The OP seems to indicate you are either with us or against us, is this true?

I ask because it does not seem to be the case in my reality but I want to know if it is in yours.

"His core argument is that what is denounced as left-wing anti-semitism is not anti-semitism, because it is thoroughly justified. It is not a self-betrayal by the left, but the result of a proper application of its good, basic, traditional instincts."

This sentence makes no sense to me in fact its a brain burner. Denounced by the left ....ok as left wing
anti semistism.....left wing antisemitism.......left wing anti-semitism, I just cant get my head around that. I'll try ok the left wing hates jewish people? I'm sorry I just can't get to square one on this what the fuck?

[charlie]

9. I don't think I've ever seen so many scare quotes

on a single page.

This is loopy:

Let us grant that they do not want to be anti-semitic — that they loathe the Tsarist, Nazi, and Christian anti-semitisms of the past. Anti-semitism is nonetheless there in what they advocate — the destruction of Israel.

The benign, but stupid (and the more benignly intended, the more stupid), version of the “get rid of Israel” mindset says “oh, a single secular-democratic state would be much better”, or “a binational state would be better” — proposing things which are inconceivable, now, without the prior conquest and destruction of Israel, and which would be impossible, or a sham, after that destruction.

It is anti-semitism because it proposes to destroy the Israeli Jewish nation, and because it involves those who advocate it in a comprehensive “political” hostility to Jews everywhere, the big majority of whom — actively or vaguely, critically or uncritically, enthusiastically or reluctantly, but in any case instinctively and more or less inevitably — identify with Israel.

We repeat: this anti-semitism can be identified and measured objectively — in what they propose. It doesn’t matter whether or not someone supporting the destruction of Israel is subjectively hostile to Jews. The anti-semitism is in what they propose.

Call such proposals naive, impractical, utopian -- you can't call them anti-semitism or a desire for the conquest and destruction of Israel. I get the feeling you can't disagree with this guy much before he's blinking angry tears of conviction.

[Hobarticus]

18. By merely questioning Israel's policies, I propose to destroy Israel?

Garsh, who knew?

[Bonobo]

34. You have repeatedly advocated its "eradication" on this thread.

[Hobarticus]

39. LOL! You again! Please, post where I'VE called for that, now!

This oughta be good!

[Bonobo]

48. You said Israel should not exist and has no right to exist.

When I quote you directly, you claim it is "cherry picking"!!!

[Hobarticus]

54. Bullshit. Cut and paste and show me exactly WHERE I said that.

I said no such thing. A bald-faced lie is the last gasp of a failed argument.

[Bonobo]

56. Apologies! With all this back and forth, I thought you were Karmakaze.

[Hobarticus]

59. Accepted. Careful where you point that six-shooter, podner...

You might hit a friendly.

[LostinVA]

73. I know, I too am sick of hearing that n/t

[Karmakaze]

20. More importantly...

He keeps reminding us - the Israeli Jewish Nation - You see criticism of Israel is anti-semitic by definition, because Israel is Jewish. Of course if you were then to say that Israel is a state founded on bigotry, much like the old South Africa, you would be again commiting anti-semitism because Israel is NOT Jewish.

The fact is Israel was formed out of terrorism and ethnic cleansing. In my opinion it not only has no right to exist, but the entire world that allowed it to exist for so long owes the Palestinian people (Jews, Christians, Muslims and whatever else, alike) an enormous apology.

[Bonobo]

35. Israel took part in "ethnic cleansing"? Can you back that up?

Those are strong words indeed.

[The Magistrate]

41. Much Of What Occured In '48, Sir

IUs not unfairly described by that term. Certainly some Arab Palestinians left their homes voluntarily, even at the behest of their leadership in some places, but many were driven out by armed men quite willing to shoot anyone who dawdled.

[Bonobo]

43. Definition of "Ethnic Cleansing"

ethnic cleansing
n.

The systematic elimination of an ethnic group or groups from a region or society, as by deportation, forced emigration, or genocide.


Do you still think it is a fair description, Magistrate? Systematic???

[The Magistrate]

52. In The Latter Phases Of The '48 War, Sir, Yes, Quite Systematic

There is no good in blinking at facts.

"At the foundation of every great fortune is a great crime."

[Bonobo]

55. Noted. I will try to do the research.

[The Magistrate]

61. Basically, Sir, There Were Three Phases To It

In the first, during the so-called "war of the roads" before the official English departure, and shortly after, Arabs in the area alloted by the partition to Israel were indtructed to depart by the Arab Nationalist leadership, to demonstrate Arabs would not suffer rule by Jews.

In the second, after the invasion was well under way and battloe general in the approachs to Jerusalem, a great many persons fled in the normal way of people seeking safety by avoiding battle come to their doorsteps, though tales of one or two excesses by Irgun militia, wildly multiplied and exaggerated, certainly convinced many they were in grave peril that might not have materialized.

In the third, the period of Israeli counter-attack and exploitation commenced about the time of the capture of Lydda, Israeli forces ordered Arabs to leave, and the orders were backed by killing on occassion.

[LostinVA]

74. The Magistrate is correct about this n/t

[DemocratSinceBirth]

105. It's Nice To Be Honest

Neither side has a monopoly on the truth...

Some Palestinians fled because Arab leaders told them they could return to their homes when the Israelis were vanquished.


Some fled the fighting like a lot of average folks would do.


And some were intentionally scared away.

[Karmakaze]

76. Sure

"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."
-- David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.

"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.

[The Magistrate]

36. Israel Has A Perfect Right To Exist, Sir

Its opponents have a right to attempt to destroy it, buty they do not have any right to succeed in the endeavor, and have not shown much evidence they are likely to succeed in it. They have not gone about it very well....

[DemocratSinceBirth]

77. Does The United States Have The Right To Exist?

(We) expropriated the Native Americans .

At least the Jews have had an uninterrupted presence in that area for 3,700 years. When they do archaeological digs they have found artifacts that prove they have ties to that area that date back thousands of years. I doubt if you dig in Little Italy in New York you will find ancient Roman artifacts.

That area has been ruled by several different groups in the past 2,000 years; Israel is just the latest.

History only takes us far. To remove Israel requires the displacement of 7,000,000 people which is genocide.

[cali]

67. We clearly read two different

pieces. It was a well thought out balanced piece that didn't use hysterical rhetoric. It was reflective rather than reactive. Compare it to the Goff piece that's been widely posted here.

[k_jerome]

7. good article. nt.

[WindRavenX]

10. I fucking hate Hezbollah, but I AM critical of Israel right now

Does this make me an anti-semite?? :shrug:

[in_cog_ni_to]

26. NO, it does not.

It's good to know you fucking hate Hezbollah.

[Hobarticus]

30. Apparently to some, it does...eom

[LostinVA]

75. According to some on DU.... yup

I think the same way you do on this subject, and am tired of being blasted for showing some critical thinking. I honestly believe that SOME are starting threads akin to this one just to bully us into shutting the fuck up.

[Karmakaze]

11. Why does Israel have a right to exist...

when it seems that much of the world believes that the Islamic Republic of Iran or the Democratic People's Republic of Korea don't have a right to exist?

The "Israeli Jewish Nation" is no different. It has no more or less right to exist than any other. If Iran or North Korea are threatened with regime change because of their beliefs and actions then there is no reason why the nation of Israel should not. In fact Israel encouraged that very act in Iraq - so they can not even claim to be expecting to be treated as they treat others. They have no problem with the state of Iraq being eradicated, so why should I have a problem with the state of Israel being eradicated?

[Bonobo]

15. Karmakaze, wanting regime change is the same as advocating annihilation?

You said:

>In fact Israel encouraged that very act (regime change) in Iraq - so they can not even claim to be expecting to be treated as they treat others. They have no problem with the state of Iraq being eradicated, so why should I have a problem with the state of Israel being eradicated?

Are you actually saying that you think it is okay if Israel was eradicated? It sure sounds like you are saying that! Nice to see people like you crawling out of the woodwork and ashowing your true colors. I feel I have done a good job in exposing you.

Thanks for sharing.

[Hobarticus]

16. It's your coloring book...color the sky any color you want. n/t

[Bonobo]

17. Why not respond to the DIRECT QUOTE I took from the poster?

Those were not words that I put in anyone's mouth.

[Hobarticus]

22. You cherry-picked their words, and you know it.

The poster made a very valid point: if one nation endorses the destruction of another....well, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Just because that nation happens to be Israel is no excuse.

[Bonobo]

25. I picked 2 out of 6 sentences in the post. Is that really "cherry-picking"

Or perhaps the poster shouldn't have said that Israel should be eradicated?

[Hobarticus]

29. Post the EXACT SENTENCE where the poster said that.

Again, it's your coloring book...

[Bonobo]

31. "Why should I have a problem with the state of Israel being eradicated?"

[Hobarticus]

38. In the context, that is NOT the same thing, and you know it...

That is true championship cherry-picking.

I think your feelings run true and deep on this, and I respect the depth of your conviction, but finding anti-Semitism everywhere you look isn't going to win hearts and minds.

[Bonobo]

46. And I respect your abbhorence of violence and war.

I abhore it myself. But you are not exactly winning hearts and minds by advocating the destruction of the state of Israel either.

And ultimately, that is just too fucking touchy of a subject and you should know that!

[Hobarticus]

57. I never advocated anything of the sort.

It's not a fucking touchy subject if I never brought it up.

[Bonobo]

58. I repeat my apology . I confused you with another poster, Hobarticus.

[Hobarticus]

60. It's all good, Bonobo...one world, let's make the best of it eom

[Bonobo]

62. A person who quotes Debs is a good person in my book, Comrade!

[Hobarticus]

63. And there you have it....peace, coffee, and eggs for breakfast, then.

Goodnight!

[Karmakaze]

40. he did misquote me - BUT

He is not totally wrong about my beliefs. I do believe that the NATION of Israel - ie the political entity - should be eradicated. It is the embodiement of violence and bigotry. It is time for a new nation to be formed that does not have bigotry as its basic foundation.

The Jews and Arabs CAN and do live together peacefully. What is wrong, is that some Jews REFUSE to live in a state in Palestine that they do not dominate. That is why peace can not occur - Israel won't allow it until the Arabs are gone, and the Arabs won't allow it becuase they would be ethnically cleansed, and because some of them refuse to live in a state in Palestine that THEY do not dominate.

"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

Thus, peace can ONLY come about if the very IDEA of the Nation of Israel (ie the Jewish State) is eradicated. A new nation must be formed that recognises the rights of both Jews and Arabs to live peacefully in Palestine.

[The Magistrate]

45. And Of Course, Sir

The entire problem in its modern form traces to the refusal of Arab Nationalist leadership to accept the existance of a state in which Jews, not Arab Muslims, would predominate and rule, particularly of it involved Jews ruling over any Arab Moslems. If your charge is that the nation was formed out of bigotry, so was its opposition rooted in bigotry, though perhaps the form of it is unfamiliar to you....

"A nation is a group of people united by a mistaken view of history, and hatred for their neighbors."

[Karmakaze]

66. Wait -

Are you telling me that it is bigotry to refuse to be dominated or ethnically cleansed by the minority? Remember Jews and Arabs lived side by side in Palestine for millenia. But the Zionists did not want that - they wanted the Arabs OUT. There was NEVER any suggestion that the Arabs were trying to ethnically cleanse Palestine of Jews.

So unless you are suggesting that refusal to be ethnically cleansed or ruled by the minority is bigotry, you are in fact wrong. The problem DOESN'T stem from Arabs refusing to be dominated by Jews, it stems from Jews wishing to dominate Arabs.

"There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"
-- Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122.

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

82. Hmmmm

"There was NEVER any suggestion that the Arabs were trying to ethnically cleanse Palestine of Jews."


There were anti Jewish riots in Palestine long before the state of Israel was born and Grand Mufti, Haj Muhammed Amin al-Husseini of Jordan allied himself with Hitler. He was so enamored of the Nazi ideology that he was the first non-German that Hitler shared his plans for the Final Solution with.

I can supply links if you want.

I can also supply links that demonstrate that while Jews were treated in Arab lands marginally better than they were in Christendom they still lived as second class citizens.


There were also 850,000 Jews expelled from Arab lands upon the advent of Israel with little more than the clothes on their back. Where is the compensation for them.

I can supply links if you want.

Oh, the goals of Hezbollah are to expel the Jews from Israel although they have allowed for some Jews to stay as long as they submit to Sharia Law.

I can supply links if you want.

[Lurking Dem]

85. Thank you for mentioning the Sephardim.

They are often forgotten in these arguments. Especially when they delve into the "Israel should have been established in Germany" line of thought.

I often wonder if I could go to Morocco, pitch a tent, and declare myself a "refugee". I see that as no different than what Arafat did, having been born in Cairo to parents who emigrated in 1929.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

88. Both Sides Have Their Own Narratives.

I believe the Sepphardim are a majority or a near majority in Israel. They are the 850, 000 Jews who were expelled from Arab lands after the birth of Israel and their progeny. There are probably about 3,500,000 of them in Israel right now.

I doubt the nations from where they left would repatriate them, provide them with full rights of citizenship and guarantee their safety.

[mmonk]

99. Weren't they opposed to the UN plan in 1948?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

104. Who?

It's not like the Jews of Yemen, Morocco, Iraq and the rest of the Arab nations had much say in the thing.

[Lurking Dem]

108. No.

They viewed Zionism differently than the Ashkenazic Jews, for whom formation of Israel was a political accomplishment. The Sephardim viewed it more religiously, as an achievement of G-d.

Jews from Yemen had been emigrating to Palestine since the late 1800's.

Now, certainly, there were some groups of both Sephardic and Ashkenazic Jews who were against partition. But neither group can be considered monolithically.

[mmonk]

109. Thanks for the answer I was looking for.

I had heard conflicting views of the account about those living there before the implementation of the partitioning. Wanted to know what the situation was.

[Hobarticus]

51. Careful...anything but the status quo is apparently unacceptable...

So the rocket attacks and the bombings will go on and on and on....rinse, lather, repeat.

[cali]

69. By your logic the U.S. should be eradicated, not to mention

most of the other countries in the world. And your language regarding Israel, and refusal to deal with realities brought to your attention by the Magistrate and others, is pathetic and repulsive.

[Karmakaze]

28. Who said ANYTHING about annihilation?

I said the NATION of Israel should be eradicated. It was formed out of ethnic cleansing and mass murder, it practices active discrimination and carries out war crimes without concience.

The Jewish people are as much a victim of the Nation of Israel as the rest of the Palestinians are. The nation (as a political entity) should be removed and a new, JUST, nation formed from its ashes that welcomes ALL Palestinians whether they be Arab, Jew or Christian.

The nation of Israel embodies violence and bigotry and it should not be allowed to continue.

Of course, you will claim this is anti-semitism simply because Israel is "The Jews" right? The nation itself can't be seperated from the people? Unless of course Israel does something wrong, then it would be wrong to blame all Jews for it right? Thats the exact kind of bullshit that allows Israel to get away with what it does. Jews are a good people and have done many great things over the years, they should no longer have to face the wrath for a nation created by murderers and run by bigots.

[Bonobo]

32. Again, advocating regime change is not the same as eradicating a nation.

You said: "They have no problem with the state of Iraq being eradicated, so why should I have a problem with the state of Israel being eradicated?"

QUESTION: When did Israel ever advocate the destruction of Iran?

[Karmakaze]

49. Hmmm lets see...

In an exclusive interview with the New York Post, Sharon said that as soon as Iraq is dealt with, he "will push for Iran to be at the top of the 'to do' list."

Once again you seem to be trying to force meaning into my words that I have CLEARLY shown not to be there. Let me state it again for you - eradicating the NATION - THE NATION - of Israel does not mean the eradication of the PEOPLE of Israel.

[cali]

72. Have you any idea how

fucking condescending you sound? Or how biased?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

86. Wow

" said the NATION of Israel should be eradicated. It was formed out of ethnic cleansing and mass murder, it practices active discrimination and carries out war crimes without concience.

The Jewish people are as much a victim of the Nation of Israel as the rest of the Palestinians are. The nation (as a political entity) should be removed and a new, JUST, nation formed from its ashes that welcomes ALL Palestinians whether they be Arab, Jew or Christian."


You could just as easily replace the Palestinans with the Native Americans and Israel with the United States. I won't even emphasize the fact that the Jews have have had a 3,700 year presence in that land and they are just one in a series of occupiers.


The nation of Israel embodies violence and bigotry and it should not be allowed to continue.

"Of course, you will claim this is anti-semitism simply because Israel is "The Jews" right? The nation itself can't be seperated from the people? Unless of course Israel does something wrong, then it would be wrong to blame all Jews for it right? Thats the exact kind of bullshit that allows Israel to get away with what it does. Jews are a good people and have done many great things over the years, they should no longer have to face the wrath for a nation created by murderers and run by bigots."


It is not so easy to disentagngle Jews from Israel because despite protestations by some at this site you could fit Jews who think Israel should be excised in a phone booth. Polls indicate support for Israel runs higher than 90% in the American Jewish community.

Israel like America is open to scrutiny and not beyond criticism but both have a right to exist.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

91. It doesn't have to make sense.

If I've learned one thing from this whole debate, it's that racism is a monument to irrationality.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

80. How Does Israel Get Blamed For Iraq?

Israel was better off under the pre invasion status quo. Iraq was a countervailing power to Iran's hegemonic aspirations in the area.


And in the situation of Iraq , the Americans wanted to pacify them not killing them.

You are free to hope for the eradication of Israel but I hope you know it would likely result in the liquidation of millions of people.

[cracksquirrel]

115. Fantastic

Can't even bring yourself to acknowledge the "Jewish Nation"'s existence, you have to put it in quotation marks. For the sake of the future of progressivism and advancement through logic and reason, I hope that your opinions are just the lunatic fringe of the Left.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cali]

68. "a heeb"?

Screw that type of frankly anti-semitic characterization. You should be tombstoned. And Bob Dylan has been a supporter of Israel.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

93. "And Bob Dylan has been a supporter of Israel."

Well, the neighborhood bully, he's just one man,
His enemies say he's on their land.
They got him outnumbered about a million to one,
He got no place to escape to, no place to run.
He's the neighborhood bully.

The neighborhood bully just lives to survive,
He's criticized and condemned for being alive.
He's not supposed to fight back, he's supposed to have thick skin,
He's supposed to lay down and die when his door is kicked in.
He's the neighborhood bully.

The neighborhood bully been driven out of every land,
He's wandered the earth an exiled man.
Seen his family scattered, his people hounded and torn,
He's always on trial for just being born.
He's the neighborhood bully.

Well, he knocked out a lynch mob, he was criticized,
Old women condemned him, said he should apologize.
Then he destroyed a bomb factory, nobody was glad.
The bombs were meant for him.
He was supposed to feel bad.
He's the neighborhood bully.

Well, the chances are against it and the odds are slim
That he'll live by the rules that the world makes for him,
'Cause there's a noose at his neck and a gun at his back
And a license to kill him is given out to every maniac.
He's the neighborhood bully.

He got no allies to really speak of.
What he gets he must pay for, he don't get it out of love.
He buys obsolete weapons and he won't be denied
But no one sends flesh and blood to fight by his side.
He's the neighborhood bully.

Well, he's surrounded by pacifists who all want peace,
They pray for it nightly that the bloodshed must cease.
Now, they wouldn't hurt a fly.
To hurt one they would weep.
They lay and they wait for this bully to fall asleep.
He's the neighborhood bully.

Every empire that's enslaved him is gone,
Egypt and Rome, even the great Babylon.
He's made a garden of paradise in the desert sand,
In bed with nobody, under no one's command.
He's the neighborhood bully.

Now his holiest books have been trampled upon,
No contract he signed was worth what it was written on.
He took the crumbs of the world and he turned it into wealth,
Took sickness and disease and he turned it into health.
He's the neighborhood bully.

What's anybody indebted to him for?
Nothin', they say.
He just likes to cause war.
Pride and prejudice and superstition indeed,
They wait for this bully like a dog waits to feed.
He's the neighborhood bully.

What has he done to wear so many scars?
Does he change the course of rivers?
Does he pollute the moon and stars?
Neighborhood bully, standing on the hill,
Running out the clock, time standing still,
Neighborhood bully.



Copyright © 1983 Special Rider Music

[BuyingThyme]

23. Equivocating Jewish people with the Israeli government

is intellectual thuggery.

But only simpletons are vulnerable to this.

[cali]

83. I think you meant equating not

equivocating. And it sounds like you didn't comprehend the article which was well written, calm, and had an academic tone.

[BuyingThyme]

117. No, I'm talking about equivocation. It's a fallacy; a failure in logic.

Apparently you didn't comprehend my post which is well written, calm, and had an academic tone which is way over your head.

[in_cog_ni_to]

24. Insidiously poisonous. Indeed.

These are dangerous times we're living in. I feel it in my bones. That article was great. LONG for 12:45 A.M., but great.

[Alexodin]

27. I am an American not an Israeli. n/t

[manic expression]

42. You are delusional

Zionism does not represent Judaism. Israel is not the epitome of the Jewish people whatsoever, Israel is a country.

The fact is that Israel is guilty of endless atrocities and injustices, and that is wrong and they should be criticized for it, if not denounced.

Again, it is not anti-semitic to criticize or denounce Israel or Zionism. To say this is like saying that opposing the Crypts and Bloods is anti-African American (call it a bad analogy if you want).

[JackDragna]

44. The amount of true anti-semites on the left..

..wouldn't be enough to fill a men's bathroom in a bus station. The charge is leveled at the left to shield Israel from criticism. I don't think we on the left should have to go around saying "Oh, but we're really NOT anti-semites!" any more than we've had to say we're patriots during this whole idiotic war on terror. The Republicans have built into Americans this mindset that the left is full of bad, unethical people, and we're constantly having to say we're not bad, fighting against this ridiculous caricature the right has created of us. I'm tired of it. We on the left do not espouse the doctrine of anti-semitism in any meaningful way.

[carl_pwccaman]

53. I agree it isn't a majority of 'the left', but it isn't small either

Criticism of the State of Israel's excesses, errors, mistakes, crimes, is fine, but it should be proportionate and balanced, I mean, the huge crimes and human/civil rights violations done by Arabs and others shouldn't be forgotten.

It's easy to get myopic.

[JackDragna]

65. Where are the major leftist anti-semites?

You say the number isn't small, but I'm not aware of any significant leftist group in the United States, to be sure, that could be called anti-semitic. Before one is labeled as anti-semitic, one must have a clear and distinct hatred of Jews and their culture. I just don't find that on the left in any significant way. When the Protocols of the Elders of Zion get brought up during the fund-raising letters the ACLU sends me, then I'll worry. Until then, I just don't see why the left should feel it has to say it's not anti-semitic.

[cali]

71. Bullshit

There's a significant amount of anti-semitism on the left and the number of posts deleted and threads locked here at DU over the past few days is reflective of that. Hell, in this thread alone we have someone referring to Bob Dylan as a heeb.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

81. I Thought He Was A Born Again Christian

Or maybe he converted back again.

[npincus]

84. quite frankly, I'm disgusted with it.

[jonnyblitz]

95. yup, that comment was not good.

I agree. I haven't seen "significant" numbers of left anti-semitism like you claim to have seen but any of this is not right no matter how frequent. Your definition of it is much broader than mine. I have a hard time calling articles by renowned jews anti-semitic like some have in I/P forum. Must be lots of self-loathing going on out there.

[cali]

96. I don't recall ever

having referred to anyone as a self-loathing jew, and how do you account for the number of threads locked and posts deleted?

[jonnyblitz]

98. it's implied when you yell anti-semitism and who you are directing

that towards is jewish. the THREAD that caused soo much grief in I/P is NOT deleted last I checked. If it is so horrid as many claim why is it stii there? the article by Hannah Arrendt about Zionist/Nazi collaboration is still standing, single posts here and there were deleted but just as many from your side were deleted as the ones you claim. I know because i was involved. MY posts were deleted because i was probably rude to the person(s) yelling at me. Anyways, many of the sources in that Stan Goff piece where he derived his info were Jewish.

If people were critical of Stan Goffs sources, and his sources were Jewish, what are the critics implying?!?! self-loathing i would assume.

I don't even think people read through that whole article and the hyperlinks. they saw a few words they didn't like and started wailing and wringing their hands.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=136524&mesg_id=136524

[cali]

100. What bullshit.

I criticized the article in question (it was posted several times some mods deleted it, others didn't) because I thought it was a lousy, dishonest, ahistorical piece of rhetoric.

My side? I doubt that anyone who does support israel in this action and as regards the occupation would characterize me as being pro-Israel. I've strongly condemned Israel.

Your implication that criticizing Jews I disagree with is saying that I think they're self-loathing is malarkey. I disagree because I think they're wrong, or misuse facts or whatever. I don't attempt to psycho-analyze them.

[jonnyblitz]

106. fair enough. we aren't going to agree on this.

if that thread is so bad it should be deleted. that's all. I am sure the other ones were deleted because they were dupes. many reactions to that thread implied antisemitism, maybe not from you but the others. I won't mention any names but one poster should have been given the "drama queen of I/P" award. calling us fringe and no wonder nobody likes us, etc. total asshole. And nobody read the stuff thoroughly, I could tell by the responses. the thread had 16 recommends before it was sent to I/P where it can't be recommended.

[Spazito]

111. I think the threads and posts that have been deleted were equally

split between those who went over the top supporting Israel and made personal attacks and those who went over the top criticizing Israel and made personal attacks. To infer they were all from only one side of the debate is disingenuous, imo.

[cali]

116. I'm not implying that only one side

was over the top, but there's a difference betweem personal attacks and antisemitism.

[Spazito]

119. Which is more acceptable to you?

The personal attacks should stay? If they are comprised of vile anti-Arab sentiments, which I have seen as often as I have seen vile anti-semitic ones, they are less despicable than anti-semitic sentiments?

[cali]

120. Any comment

that reflects racism is deeply offensive to me, whether it's directed against Arabs or black or Jews or any other group.

[Spazito]

121. Thank you, we are in FULL agreement on that! n/t

[JackDragna]

122. What we have here doesn't touch the surface..

..of leftist political thought. Again, I ask: how many serious leftist organizations espouse anti-semitism? I mean, real, true anti-semitism, the kind of people who suggest Jews, as a race, are inferior? There's virtually none of that on the left in any real proportion. The only thing that's "Bullshit" is the assertion by people like you that any sane person on the left should spend more than a millisecond decrying it within our ranks.

[carl_pwccaman]

47. Destroying Israel without destroying others, would be bias...

What would you call such a bias, if not anti-semitism?

To destroy Israel, to advocate that, without advocating the destruction of the Palestinian Authority, without also advocating the destruction of other states whose lines were drawn by colonial powers or by the victors in various wars, would lead to chaos.

The State of Israel exists, to take this as a fact to start with, is sensible.

To be so unreasonable, and so biased against the State of Israel among all the many states that have problems in the world, is bigoted, and it is bigotry against a state full of Jews.

States of Arabs, do they get to be destroyed, too?

Palestinians, why not destroy their state? OOPS, they don't really have a state, they never really did, the region was always dominated by someone else, Turks, Egypt, Jordan, Syria, England, they all did as they pleased with immigrants from here or there, Musslims, Jews, Christians, manipulating the town borders, etc., with no concern for the trouble it caused, to Palestinian or Jew or anyone else.

Now the present day Israeli's and Palestinians are dealing with the fallout from this, and people are egging on the hot-heads.

Those who do cannot accept the existence of the state of Israel are not playing fair.

It is anti-semitic to want the State of Israel abolished and to then turn a blind eye to Arab and Palestinian terrorism and all kinds of tyranny in such states that have such poor records on civil and human rights, some of those states having authoritarian 'political' leaders who spread belief in the blood libel, all of them endorsing various degrees of very real anti-semitism, excusing or rationalizing torture and terrorism.

I'm sorry, but there is anti-semitism in some of the left as well as the right.

But not all the left is anti-semitic, just as not all of the right is anti-semitic.

Anti-semitism isn't defined by criticism of the State of Israel, many Jews are critical of the State of Israel, they have vigorous debate in Israel, moreso than in Arab countries who won't tolerate such differences of opinion at all.

[mmonk]

89. My question is this:

why not also seek peaceful tracks as well (in regards to unending war and violence)? Yes, there are plenty of organizations and people that want the end of Israel, hate jews, and such but always war doesn't end them. The danger of course, views and positions become so skewed and locked in that no one seeks assessments of greivances from either side of the Isaraeli/Palestinian issue as well as the relationships between Israel and its neighbors. It appears the US has abandoned any leadership role in quelling conflicts and will take sides. While advocates for Israel here will see this as a good thing, it will never allow us to broker peace accords again, that will have to fall on someone else's shoulders. That's ok if someone will pick up that mantle but what bothers me is that the neocon movement with its domination and world garrisoning scheme will take advantage of America's closeness to Israel to gain favor in both parties and destroy a world leadership vision through peace and justice many prefer for the future.

[DoYouEverWonder]

92. Guess what?

if BushCo gets the War they want, you won't have to worry about Israel's right to exist anymore.

What do you think this is about for the Xians. It is about the destruction of Israel and the Temple Mount so that Jesus can return and there will be no more Jews. Get it?

[leesa]

94. Nonsense. It is NOT hostility toward their "right to exist". It is

hostility toward Israel's land grabs and slaughter of innocent civilians that has ALWAYS been the issue. Take your propaganda somewhere else.

[cali]

97. Screw your intolerance

the OP posted a reasoned, reflective article. Compared to many of the anti-Israel screeds that have been posted lately, this piece was the very model of a reasoned argument.

[mmonk]

101. Anti-seminism on the left has always existed just as

anti-semitism on the right. The problem arises when legitimate concerns and legitimate differences in opinion in reference to current foreign policy are smothered under calls of anti-semitism because no one is looking at anything broader right now, especially the designs of the current administration.

[MadHound]

103. Is there anti-semitism on the left, sure.

But frankly I don't think that there is as much as the Israel apologists claim to be. In fact I find this article a might bit suspicious, because for years and decades, few people dared to criticize Israeli actions over fear of being anti-semite. Therefore Israel was free to do what they wished while facing minimal or no criticism for its actions.

Now however, many on the left are starting to call Israel out on its actions, and they are also exposing the false meme of years past that criticism of Israel equates with anti-semitism. This protective veil is slowly but surely being torn away, as Israel is rightfully being criticised for its actions.

This doesn't sit well with the Israel apologists, hence we see commentaries like this one. Sorry friend, but I have yet to see anywhere on the multitudenous threads on the current conflict any assertion that Israel doesn't have a right to exist. There are some people who have said that the creation of Israel was a mistake, but it is too late to put the genie back in the bottle. But frankly the criticism is aimed directly at Israels criminal acts in targeting civilians and humanitarian aid, criticism of Israel's over reaction to this incident.

Frankly the motives of the article's author, and the motives of your posting it are transparent. Both of you are trying to again cow the left into silence regarding Israel and her inhumane actions. Sorry friend, but that genie is out of the bottle too, and sadly it is being played out on a world wide stage for all to see. If you wish to defend Israel's actions, fine, we can debate that all day(and have for over a week). But trying to place a guilt trip on those with legit concerns is reprehensible on your part and the part of this article's author. Let me get this straight for you once and for all friend; criticism of Israel and her actions does not equate to anti-semitism nor denying Israel's right to exist. It is simply criticism of her actions, just like people criticize the actions of any other country. In fact recieving such criticism is part and parcel of being a country, and I would suggest that you, the author, and the state of Israel get used to it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

107. Well

"Sorry friend, but I have yet to see anywhere on the multitudenous threads on the current conflict any assertion that Israel doesn't have a right to exist. "


Karmakaze (1000+ posts) Thu Jul-20-06 06:04 AM
Response to Reply #29
40.
Thus, peace can ONLY come about if the very IDEA of the Nation of Israel (ie the Jewish State) is eradicated. A new nation must be formed that recognises the rights of both Jews and Arabs to live peacefully in Palestine.

There are others who have expressed similar sentiments.

[High Plains]

110. That's not anti-semitism.

Poster is calling for a single-state solution to the permanent crisis.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

112. I Was Responding To This Quote

"Sorry friend, but I have yet to see anywhere on the multitudenous threads on the current conflict any assertion that Israel doesn't have a right to exist. "



I think there are nearly two hundred nation states in the United Nations. To argue for the destruction of only one strikes me as eerily selective and morally dubious.


Also, Israel is a state. It is not going anywhere. It's exists by force of arms and the force of law; i.e. a United Nations Resolution ratifying it's existence.

[MadHound]

113. Well, first off

I think that you're taking that post out of context a bit. However even if that isn't the case, that is what, one post out of how many thousands on this subject in the past week?(if you have more, link please) A VERY small minority opinion. One person out of how many tens of thousands on the left? Sorry, but your protests ring hollow, you are resorting to using one dubious, out of context post. Give me a break.

[lastliberalintexas]

118. Israel doesn't have a right to exist

Not anymore than any other artificial geo-political boundary called a nation state does, anyway. It will be a great day indeed when people stop caring about the artificial boundaries of land and instead worry more about the people of the world.


Every minute the world spends more than a million dollars on the war machine, while 30 children die of starvation. Do you really care which side of that artificial boundary known as a border the child lived?

[HEyHEY]

123. Yeah, cause no right wing people EVER hated Jewish people