What is your definition of a "Just War"?

[rucky]

PLEEEEASE avoid specifics - there's plenty of other threads to have *that* debate.

I'm talking about general, conceptual guidelines of how war *should* happen - if at all. What has to happen before a nation can justifably engage in war? What limits, if any, should be set when engaging in war? When should a war end? What should happen afterwards?

The exercise is to find if there are absolutes for nations to follow - to clear up some fuzzy lines, or at least have some consensus BEFORE the deeds are done. Before emotion clouds judgement, and long strings of events complicate things.

I realize the timing of this thread is atrocious, and I'm not going to pretend it's not inspired by current events. But the intentions aren't to play *gotcha* with anybody - just to find some common ground. Peoples positions are completely justified in their minds, but it's difficult to see where people are coming from sometimes, when you're in the middle of an international crisis. It's hard to articulate one's personal justification for their position, when passion - and assumptions about the other side - muddy things up. Maybe speaking in generalities will help - i think we'll find that our guidelines are similar, but our interpretations of facts & events are where the differences lie.

OK, I'll start. it's a work in progress. Pick it apart all you want, but please try to come up with some constructive alternatives:

Declaration of war in direct response to an *imminent and ongoing* threat to a civilian population of a nation or sub-group within a nation (ethnic, religious, political or otherwise). After all diplomatic means are exhausted. My measure is the state criminal codes for actions that justify self-defense and duress among individuals. Apply that on a larger scale, and voila. Authorization from nation's legislative body and/or the UN Security Council ("OR" in the cases of genocide and civil war, where there is no legislative body).

Limits: Appropriate action to curb said threat, without harm to civilian populations (military targets only. no carpet bombing, etc). You can do what is necessary to prevent the crime from being successfully completed and/or catch the bad guy. As long as the bad guy keeps coming at you, you have the right to defend yourself.

Afterward: repirations and transfers of power are supervised by the UN. treaties are drawn. prisoners are released. Human Rights violations on both sides are carefully assessed and prosecuted in the Hague.

In other words: Keep war safe, legal and extremely rare :P

Well, it's a start... :shrug:

[Selatius]

1. Gen Smedley Butler said only two reasons exist for the US to go to war:

1) To protect family and home from immediate danger or destruction
2) To protect the Bill of Rights from enemies both foreign and domestic

That was really it, and I agree with him. Everything else is a needless waste of human life.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

2. What If A Larger Country Attacks A Helpless Smaller Country?

How about to stop genocide?


Take it down to the individual level.


If I see a gang beating up a helpless person I'm coming to his or her aid.

[Selatius]

4. The UN exists to deal with that.

As far as genocide goes, the model the UN generally employs nowadays, or tries to employ anyway, is to get nations in the area to intervene rather than, say, the US or other far-flung powers to commit troops to the area. After Iraq, I believe the US population will be even less tolerant of getting into a situation that could cause another "Blackhawk Down" incident. We will not be pulling anymore Somalia missions for a very long time, not after what happened there and what is happening in Iraq right now.

The prime example now is Darfur. They're trying to get the African Union to send in troops to stop the bloodshed there, but the issue has been put on the back burner in light of recent events in the Middle East.

If you see a gang of several individuals beating up on another individual, you'll only make yourself a second victim unless you had a gang of your own.

If you want another model to emulate, then sign yourself up and become a volunteer like American pilots did during the First World War. Individuals willingly went to Europe to fight of their own accord. Units of foreign nationals were set up precisely to group them together. This way, those who do not support war are not forced into fighting as when a nation decides to mobilize its armies. There is no choice when the leader orders war, but individuals can make choices if left to them.

[rucky]

9. does #2 mean...

"enemies" who act to supress ones rights guaranteed by the Constitution?

edit: because there's a whole hellova lot of suppression going on.

[Selatius]

12. Two is very dangerous ground.

In congressional testimony, Gen. Butler testified that industrialists had solicited his help in organizing roughly 500,000 veterans in a coup to overthrow FDR or turn him into a powerless figurehead the same way the King of Italy was rendered a figurehead in Mussolini's Fascist Italy.

I would say if Butler was alive, he'd be screaming at Bush and attacking him as a fascist, but I don't think he'd be advocating violence against the current regime unless Bush instituted martial law or cancelled elections like after a sudden terrorist attack.

Remember that unless the other side uses overt violence first, the preferred path is non-violent resistance. It is imperative that all peaceful remedies have been exhausted before one entertains the notion of violence. It is not for the sake of keeping up appearances of looking like the "good guys" but for the sake of one's family and friends. When you go to war against "domestic enemies," you take everybody you know with you into that war, so it is vitally important that you are sure you have completely exhausted all peaceful remedies.

[wakeme2008]

3. Ends wih WWII

When a Major country attacks another country then the war is just.

[Robbien]

5. There is no just war

The ruling elite wage wars for their own political reasons and financial gain. Citizens are always on the losing end of the stick.

[rucky]

6. What about stepping in on a genocide? n/t

[DemocratSinceBirth]

7. That's A Good Reason

eom

[Robbien]

11. Cut off the funding sources

Political leaders are supplying funding and arms to those they send out to kill citizens. Stop the funding.

[brmdp3123]

10. Oh, for crying out loud.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

13. Not a good reason..... not at all. n/t

[rucky]

14. What if said crier refuses to stop? n/t

[HysteryDiagnosis]

15. Well then... I say, RELEASE THE HOUNDS!!!! heh heh....

[B Calm]

8. General, conceptual guidelines for war should not be for corporate

interests like oil and for war profiteering companies.

A just war would be fighting off an invading army. We should not go to war over a handful of crazy hijackers from several different countries.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

16. Holy books say

"turn the other cheek"-in other words, I don't think the teachings of Jesus condone any form of war

"Fight in the cause of Allah Those who fight you, But do not transgress limits; For Allah loveth not transgressors." (2:190 in the Qur'an)-in other words, fight in self defense, but that's it.

The Bagava Gita also talks of fighting, but I don't have it here for handy reference-basically it says there are times when one must fight for principle (please correct me if I am wrong)

Buddhists say that all wars, heartache, discomfort, comes from desire-to control desire results in peace within yourself.


As for me, I think the "just war" is the one with myself-to control the ego.

[rug]

17. Should I ever be a soldier

By Joe Hill

We're spending billions every year
For guns and ammunition,
"Our Army" and "Our Navy" dear,
To keep in good condition;
While millions live in misery
And millions died before us,
Don't sing "My Country, 'tis of thee,"
But sing this little chorus.

Chorus:
Should I ever be a soldier,
'Neath the Red Flag I would fight;
Should the gun I ever shoulder,
It's to crush the tyrant's might.
Join the army of the toilers,
Men and women fall in line,
Wage slaves of the world! Arouse!
Do your duty for the cause,
For Land and Liberty.

2. And many a maiden, pure and fair,
Her love and pride must offer
On Mammon's altar in despair,
To fill the master's coffer,
The gold that pays the mighty fleet,
From tender youth he squeezes,
While brawny.men must walk the street
And face the wintry breezes.

Chorus:

3. Why do they mount their gatling gun
A thousand miles from ocean,
Where hostile fleet could never run--
Ain't that a funny notion?
If you don't know the reason why
Just strike for better wages,
And then, my friends--if you don't die--
You'll sing this song for ages.

Chorus:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

18. A just war

would be one where you protect your own or assist your friends in protecting theirs.

Or when a manman is exterminating an entire race, it would be just to step in.

[LWolf]

19. There isn't one.

There is defending yourself when under attack, the purpose being to stop the attack that is happening. I don't consider that "war." It doesn't include any action outside blocking or repelling attack.

If you want an international "police force" to police nations instead of individuals, how do you take the politics out and make sure the force is neutral, just enforcing international law? That would be a just way to deal with international law-breaking nations.

[sweetheart]

20. A just war uses just bombs

A just war is fought from the air, cloistered away in humming cockpits,
just warriors sip coffee and murder with impunity, knowing the only
cameras of their involvement are on their aircraft, and that as long as
the mission is completed, they get a medal.

Just war is immaculate. There are no dead, just the inevitable crushing
sound as a steam roller crushes an entire nation to make room for liebensraum.

there, that is injust war, reframed as just, as just war is a last resort,
really and absolutely, and only then when there is no alternative, does just
war reach out to end and sort out the situation strategically.

[Jim Warren]

21. Just War = justice

As in just_us that is who get to make the call, if ya get my drift, wink wink.

History is the way men tell it.