Juan Cole: What Israel is Doing is "State Terror"......

[leftchick]

I agree....

http://www.juancole.com/

<snip>

Israel Kills 57 in Lebanon
Arbour Warns War Crimes are Prosecutable


The Daily Star reports,
' Israeli fighter-bombers also destroyed nearly 20 residential homes and buildings in Lebanon in the early morning hours of Wednesday and continued air raids in the South, the Bekaa and Beirut's southern suburbs. At least 12 Lebanese, including children, were killed and 30 wounded in an Israeli air strike that destroyed several homes in the Southern village of Srifa, residents said. '


In fact, Israel "flattened" several Lebanese villages in the south with indiscriminate air strikes. One entire village section of 15 homes was destroyed, with a high civilian death toll. It is not possible that all 15 civilian residences were legitimate military targets. This is just state terror.


<snip>

The Lebanese government says that the Israelis have now killed more than 300 persons, all by a handful innocent civilians. Some of the military personnel killed were Lebanese army troops hundreds of miles from the Hizbullah positions in the South, who were not doing anything that threatened Israel. In fact, Israeli officials keep saying that want the help of the Lebanese army to curb Hizbullah. But then they bomb the Lebanese army. Say what?

Israeli war planes fired on two parked trucks in the Christian Ashrafiyah district of Beirut. These innocuous trucks in a Christian area were clearly not legitimate military targets in a struggle against Hizbullah. The message the Israeli air force is trying to send with such actions is that Lebanese should stop driving trucks for a while, or else they will be targets.

[papau]

1. Stopping transport of missiles to Hez is bad? - I disagree n/t

n/t

[rman]

2. Who says stopping transport of missiles to Hezbollah is bad?

Or is it that you think all trucks in Lebanon are transporting missiles to Hezbollah? Or perhaps you think it's ok to bomb any trucks just because they might be transporting missiles to Hezbollah?

[papau]

14. yes and yes n/t

n/t

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

16. THAT was an incredibly EVIL thing to say.

What are you, an atheist? :sarcasm:

[papau]

21. Sad - you see evil where I see normal war - what informs your thinking?

no matter - we are not going to agree.

But I do like a poster's morals/religion or lack of religion/ sanity/ and rational thinking being the basis of much of this thread.

One more thread where I leave hoping folks can agree to disagree - although I doubt that is possible on this topic.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

31. What do I begin with?

For one thing, I can't imagine anyone with an ounce of decency using the phrase "normal war" in such a nonchalant way.

Ah, bugger. All I really have to do is let you talk all you want about the subject, point at your posts and say, "Hey people! Look here!" No further argumentation is necessary.

*sits back and relaxes*

[Lindacooks]

Then put him on ignore. I did, and my life is much more peaceful.

[papau]

67. LOL :-) Peace be with you always.

:-)

[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madeline_con]

74. Can you see the post he sent you?

I'm trying to figure out how ignore works. :shrug:

[Name removed]

30. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[arwalden]

19. Are you joking?

:eyes:

[papau]

22. Stopping transport is standard war procedure - no I am not joking.

Seems a few posters missed having a relationship with the US military.

[MadHound]

27. Bombing humanitarian aid that is being transported

Is not SOP, during war or not. It is a cruel and inhumane practice that has been rightfully criticized for decades now. To see people cheering on such deadly tactics just boggles the mind.

[papau]

58. Is SOP the using of Humanitarian/Medical aid vehicles to transport weapons

?

[MadHound]

79. Actually that has been a practice that has been done sporatically

Throughout history, by all sides, in all wars. However for the most part it is a practice that is limited for the very fact that it is common decency to allow humanitarian aid to go through. The overwhelming majority of humanitarian aid convoys that have been bombed by Israel have turned out to be carrying humanitarians aid, cooking oil, medical supplies, food, etc. In fact I have yet to come across a credible report to the contrary.

What Israel is doing in this context is despicable. They demonize and dehumanize their opponents, and thus they have no moral qualms about bombing civilian targets and humanitarian aid.

[arwalden]

28. Astounding.

That's a viewpoint that is beneath contempt.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

33. Let me borrow from the "Top Ten" DU feature...

I always liked this icon...

[papau]

60. Can an attitude thats so anti-Jewish State of Israel it justifies killing

Jewish kids and kidnapping citizens of that state be called beneath contempt?

I think it is more uninformed by moral values that being beneath contempt. I thought the non-religious acting like an pompous I know I am always correct ass was to be limited to the Religion forum, but apparently it shows up in GD now and then.

"what informs your thinking was asked" and not answered - but I only expect a rational answer from some the rationalist of the Religious forum - not all of them.

Sorry - but I have already wasted too much time on you and your "righteous attitude covering a hateful heart" friends.

Bye-bye.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

69. Hateful heart?

I don't see anyone in this exchange/subthread defending or praising Hezbollah. Besides, I very much doubt strong disapproval of the Israeli military's way of doing, er, business in Lebanon is restricted to atheists.

[ThomCat]

86. Don't take it personally. He does that to everyone.

He spouts off and then says bye-bye, as if he's putting people on ignore. He must have half of DU on ignore at this point.

[manic expression]

89. Israel is guilty of murder and ethnic cleansing

What would you expect in response? When Israel evicts and murders countless innocents, imposes its will upon entire peoples, flattens entire nations, besieges and occupies territories and steals land, commits injustice after injustice and worse, how can you have the AUDACITY to blame the victimized?

Israel has murdered countless Palestinian kids practically for sport. Israel holds hundreds of innocents in its prisons without trial. Israel has occupied other people's land and stolen much of it. Israel has carried out ethnic cleansing.

Say "Bye-bye" to reality, if you ever knew it at all.

[rman]

36. so you support the neocon policy of "preventative" war,

aka "war of agression"; the prime war crime.

[papau]

61. No - and this is not a "preventative" war. n/t

n/t

[rman]

72. It's preventative bombing of transportation, just in case

they are carrying weapons for Hezbollah. It's not very likely that all transports in Lebanon are carrying weapons for Hezbollah, but according to Israel all trucks are valid targets because they *could* be carrying weapons for Hezbollah. Likewise any infrastructure is a valid target because it *might* be used by terrorists. The neocons follow the same doctrine (which has led among others, to the war in Iraq), and you support it, as per your admission that you think "it's ok to bomb any trucks just because they might be transporting missiles to Hezbollah".

[manic expression]

87. It's not even that, it's a punitive war without justification

Israel has no reason to do anything to Lebanon. This is a war of murder and injustice.

MURDER AND INJUSTICE AND OPPRESSION: THE ISRAELI WAY.

[spanone]

42. So you buy into the Cheney 1% theory.

It's ok to kill 99 people if you get one terrorist.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

44. Did he ACTUALLY say something along these lines???? I didn't know. -nt

[rman]

45. That's what it comes down to, that's why it is so incredibly evil.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

49. Link? -nt

[rman]

50. It's an inevitable consequence of the doctrine of prevention

Though somewhat exaggerated and simplified.

It's the neocon doctrine, and it's everywhere these days.

"reasonable belief" versus "probable cause"
Imprison people without a trial because they are terrorist 'suspect'.
Bomb infrastructure because it *can be* used by terrorists.
Invade a country because it *might* attack you.
Cost and civilian casualties are not a consideration.

And it's getting worse by the day.

[Wonk]

55. Cheney's one percent doctrine

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=2120605&page=1

(snips)

Imagine what would happen in various everyday situations were the Cheney doctrine to be applied. A young man is in a bar and another man gives him a hard stare. If the young Cheneyite feels threatened and believes the probability to be at least 1 percent that the other man will shoot him, then he has a right to preemptively shoot him in "self-defense."

Or an older woman visits her Cheneyite doctor who, finding that the woman has suffered from a sore throat and fatigue for months, orders that she be put on chemotherapy since the likelihood of cancer is in his opinion at least 1 percent. Further tests, he might argue, would take too long.

A Cheneyite gambler would be a casino's dream. The chance of rolling a 12 with a pair of dice, for example, is 1/36, almost 3 percent, and hence would justify the gambler betting his house on rolling a 12.

[papau]

62. No n/t

n/t

[muriel_volestrangler]

70. But you would bomb all trucks in Lebanon

just in case they had weapons in them. What do you think would happen to the drivers? Isn't your policy of bombing all Lebanese truck drivers going to cause massive casualties of innocent people?

[manic expression]

85. Why stop there?

kill all the women, because they could be terrorists, and even if they aren't, they'll give birth to potential terrorists. Speaking of potential terrorists, let's just kill the kids because that's what they are (Israel has been known to do this, killing adolescent boys in Palestine, it's been documented).

:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

:puke: :puke: :puke:

Let the truth be heard: Israel is guilty of GENOCIDE and MURDER.

"Snipers with children in their sights"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1516268,00.html

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[leftchick]

4. wholesale slaughter of civilians

is bad.

and that is how the Arab world see it as well as the sane people in the west....

[papau]

15. Guess us insane folk in the west are in need of better logic? OK .n/t

n/t

[rman]

43. "us"? what "us"? There's you and 30% backwash

that need better logic.

[Binka]

73. rman come over here and let me kiss you!

"There's you and 30% backwash" THAT IS SO FUCKING SPOT ON!:loveya:

[rman]

76. you're welcome Binka

:hug:

[Jim__]

24. Anyone with eyes sees it as wholesale slaughter of civilians. - n/t

[DoYouEverWonder]

11. Do you believe

everything the CIA controlled M$M tells you?

Remember the donkey carts of mass destruction?

[papau]

17. no - but I do believe I know the logic of war - 12000 missiles transported

to Hez from Iran via Syria - as claimed by Hez - perhaps gives a bit of logic to what Israel is doing.

[DoYouEverWonder]

32. How does that compare

to the billions the US gives Israel in weapons, jets and missiles? Aside from the nukes they already have?

[papau]

63. Was Israel in last 6 mo bombing Lebanon before the kidnaping/killing

n/t

[Just Me]

68. They've been "kidnapping" and jailing lots of people,....

,...yes?

I am stunned that you reject the reality of a lop-sided power oppressing people. Have you no objectivity?

If "kidnapping" amounts to a declaration of war, Israel has been declaring war time and time, again. Moreover, the slaughter of people by the Israeli government is far, far greater. You deny that, as well?

You will accuse me of being anti-Israel simply because I point out reality. Truth is, I support a peaceful Israeli State. I can not possibly support the activities of the Israeli government over the last several decades,...or what they do now: killing several hundred times more people in revenge for the "kidnapping" of three people.

[jayfish]

34. The 12000 Missile Claim...

(from both sides and they are actually rockets) intrigues me. I often hear the theory espoused that if Hezbollah had a nuclear weapon and Israel didn't, Israel would have ceased to exist long ago. Hezbollah would have used that weapon the moment they acquired it to destroy Israel. So why haven't they unleashed the full force of these 12000 rockets on Israel rather than letting them be picked off by the IAF? Now seems like a perfect time to do so. Is it perhaps that Hezbollah, much like Iraq and WMD, doesn't really possess this large an arsenal? Could it be that pretending they do serves both masters. The Israeli government uses them to strike fear into the hearts of it citizens while Hezbollah gets to puff out its' chest a show its' enemies that it's big an bad?

Jay

[papau]

64. The leader of Hez is known as a truth teller - he is not known to have

ever lied.

Indeed as leaders go Nasrallah of Hezbollah is one of the best - a combination of Che and Clinton and better at truth telling - albeit with the occassional spin . Only he uses this great gift to be a piece of shit terrorist.

[burythehatchet]

35. The "logic of war"

:rofl:

[madeline_con]

77. NOT n/t

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

13. This school of thought killed an innocent Brazilian businessman.

And MANY other innocent people, but this one in particular hit close to home:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/740251.html

IAF strike kills Brazilian businessman

A Brazilian businessman was killed on Wednesday in an IAF missile attack on a factory he owned in Lebanon, the seventh Brazilian known to have been killed in an eight-day onslaught, Brazil's Agencia Estado reported.

Dib Barakat, a 60-year-old businessman from Sao Paulo, was inside his furniture factory in Sultan Yacob, in the Bekaa Valley, when three missiles struck just after 8 a.m., Agencia Estado said.

A witness said the Israeli strike appeared to be prompted by the arrival of truck loaded with wood for the factory. Five other people were wounded.

[papau]

18. All early deaths are bad - as is the Brazilian businessman's - as is kids

in Israel killed by rockets.

I wish there was no war.

But Hez/Hamas says destroying the Jewish state of Israel is goal one - and Israel is responding as best it can - trying to stop transport within Lebanon so as to stop new missiles going to Hez.

[leftchick]

38. "all early deaths are bad"?

as opposed to late deaths? wtf?

:crazy:

[whopis01]

46. "all early deaths are bad"?

I believe that the poster was referring to deaths that occur as a result of preventable circumstances (such as violence and war amongst other things) as opposed to deaths that occur as a natural part of life.

[rman]

48. That would make it "violent deaths". One can die "early" of natural causes

Though you're probably correct about what the poster meant to say.

[papau]

66. Early is before its natural time - and is not age related - in my usuage

n/t

[papau]

65. Everyone dies - it is the taking of a life before its time that is bad. n/

n/t

[ThomCat]

90. You're a fanatic.

Your respect for life is hot air, and your tolerance for injustice, terror and bloodshed is infinite as long as it's Israel doing it.

Do you have so little ability to see the people on the other side?

[pberq]

3. Let's see - 2 soldiers were kidnapped, so therefore

the proper response is to slaughter hundreds of innocent civilians and dstroy the infrastructure of a country, right?:sarcasm:

[cali]

5. Simple is

as simple does; that's hardly the whole story. Wrong as Israel's response has been, the meme that it was over two soldiers is reductionist to the point of a lie.

[High Plains]

47. Funny, that's what Israel told us. That's their official excuse.

[atreides1]

8. Yes, it is the proper response

Or at least that seems to be the belief of many here at DU. It's funny, those very same people who back what Israel is doing without question, are some of the strongest anti-war people when it comes to Iraq.

Maybe someone can tell me why the US supports Israel so vehemently? What have has Israel done for the American people?

[jonnyblitz]

10. that puzzles me too. they are progressive on everything else

but when it comes to Israel, they turn a blind eye and pretty much FOX NEWS becomes the news outlet that tells them the story the way they want to hear it.

[Imperialism Inc.]

53. They would presumably tell you it is because they are a democracy.

Only problem is that is only partly true. First , some citizens are more equal than others in Israel. Second, without the ethnic cleansing (forced relocations) of the past the Jewish population would have never been the majority in the first place. Which is also why they are so against right of return. I have seen DUers defending that by the way. "But.. but.. if arabs can return then the Jews won't be the majority and there will be no Jewish state. You want to destroy Israel!" They apparently are unable to see what an absurd position that is to take. It would be like if Republicans starting forcing all Democrats to move out of certain voting districts and then proclaim what a great democracy they have and how it always votes Republican.

[madeline_con]

78. And what's with DUers not seeing thru this?n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

6. Killing civilians is doing Lebanon a favor.

Just ask the Israelis, our congress, and the arms industry.

It's just the ungrateful civilians that disagree.

[muriel_volestrangler]

26. "We had to destroy the country to save it" (n/t)

[jonnyblitz]

7. I agree , also.

:kick: more good stuff brought to us by leftchick..:thumbsup:

[azurnoir]

9. According to Israel

anything that can be used by Hezbollah-food, electricity, medical supplies are all targets says Israel. Taking out the Lebanese infra-structure is "legitimate" because it can be "used" by Hezbollah to make war.

[Norquist Nemesis]

39. Yep! And if they're able to pull Iran and/or Syria in to defend Lebanon

Well, guess what? It will be officially WWIII and the new 'front' for the WOT will much bigger than Iraq.

Whether Iran/Syria would be dumb enough to go in is up for grabs, though I doubt it. But if Israel decides Syria and Iran need a few strategic strikes to 'defend themselves' won't surprise me.

[malaise]

12. All rational people agree n/t

[stepnw1f]

37. Glad to See so Many Rational People Here (nt)

[CuteNFuzzy]

52. A sense of compassion for others

may also factor in

[DancingBear]

20. Lebanon has been CUT OFF from any food/medical aid

Per news reports this a.m., it is impossible to get into Lebanon to provide humanitarian relief, as a certain country who is "just trying to defend itself" has blockaded it. Approximately 1/8 of the population has been forced to leave, and civilian deaths are now being reported at 300.

Meanwhile, over at Fox News and Apology Central...

[gkhouston]

57. and doesn't this sound like the prelude to an "ethnic cleansing"?

meanwhile, the Chimperor sits on his ass, doing nothing, while people die. I guess that's what he does best.

[warrens]

23. Israel, literally, gets away with murder

The capture of two soldiers is not an adequate provocation for the slaughter of civilians who had nothing to do with it, nor the destruction of the infrastructure of a poor country with a very shaky government.

[Little Star]

29. Bullshit on that two captured soldiers excuse......

It's just as transparent as the dog ate my homework excuse! This government of ours want this and the bad cop does too.

[Norquist Nemesis]

40. I heard a Lebanese official say Israel had been going back and forth

across the blue line (making note that no one ever talks about that or points it out). I don't recall whether it was the PM or their UN Ambassador. Also, I've been unable to get verification whether the soldiers were 'captured' (in Lebanon) or 'kidnapped' (in Israel). I've read both. :shrug:

[DemonFighterLives]

25. one sides "defense" is another sides terror

dubby will give them a week to destroy all they can. Reminds me of one of those shopping sprees. You have 10 minutes to get what you want, after that we ask you to quit.
:silly:
K and R

[MamaBear]

51. At which point

At which point Israel will need to, uh, re-arm itself, with all new unautographed trinkets produced by ...

Money, money, money, money, money. Why should a few civilians get in the way of our cash flow? :sarcasm:

[DemonFighterLives]

71. Poppy is now proud of dubby

and dubby is proud of Israel.
Ship of fools.
There is an alternative opinion that these actions only create more enemies which then makes the fools happier yet
:dem:

[RedEarth]

41. I agree too....

[JackDragna]

54. Amen,

..this, on top of all of the other illegal kidnappings, killings and other abuses the Israelis have heaped upon the Lebanese and Palestinians the last 50 years or so.

[pberq]

56. mixed feelings in Lebanon about Hezbollah

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/07/20/1434252

. . .AMY GOODMAN: You mentioned what Hezbollah has done. Is there condemnation of Hezbollah, as well as Israel?

JACKSON ALLERS: Yes. Overwhelmingly, of course, because of the civilian deaths and the destruction of the Lebanese infrastructure, there's anger at Israel, but there is anger towards Hezbollah. The opinions are very, very wide in scope. The more people that I talk to, the more I get a sense that the war is playing a psychological game with them, and they’re not quite sure where to put their loyalties. But indeed there is anger towards Hezbollah. They feel that Hezbollah, those that expressed anger towards them, are acting as if they’re a state within a state and that they’re making unilateral decisions without thinking about the Lebanese people. Other Shia and Sunnis that I’ve talked to, and Christians as well, who support Hezbollah's actions, are simply saying that it’s exposing a wider agenda of Israel.

[Zhade]

59. Kick for an ACTUAL expert...

...versus the DU "Israeli government's war crimes are okay by me" crowd of idiots.

[k_jerome]

75. Coles hatred for Israel is very well known...

there are other anti-Israel sources you could use, he is getting old.

[leftchick]

80. lol!

That is totally false. I notice you are labeling everyone who criticizes Israeli policies as being ant-Israel. You could not be further from the truth. By that measure I suppose all of us that criticize the bush administration's policies are anti-American. Wow! How very progressive of you!

:eyes:

[k_jerome]

91. no, read up on his constant defense of his rantings...

as not being anti-semitic. or his support for wackos that think the Mossad was implicit in 9/11.

[leftchick]

95. I am very familiar with Juan's writing

and you have totally avoided my reply to you. Am I anti-american in your eyes because I hate bush policies?

[mom cat]

81. It is a war crime ... a crime against humanity.

[Nothing Without Hope]

82. ***PERMALINK FOR THIS JUAN COLE POST***

(The link in the opening post is to his blog site, not to this specific post)

http://www.juancole.com/2006/07/israel-kills-57-in-lebanon-arbour.html

There's a lot more there, and he posts more every day. There's no better place to get the straight story, far more complete than from the corporate media.

I wrote a long reply for this thread with lots of links, but I accidentally posted it in another thread that I had open at the same time. Here's the misplaced post:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2398020&mesg_id=2401630

[leftchick]

83. The links seem to go to the same place

informed comment? :shrug:

[Nothing Without Hope]

92. The general link in the opening post goes to the blog itself.

What is at the top of that page will change, day by day, as Juan Cole updates his blog, "Informed Comment." The permalink I gave is specifically to the July 20 articles he posted, including the ones quoted in the opening post. It will work the same way 6 months from now, while the general link to the blog will no longer connect to this specific posting even a few days from now. That's why it's important to give a permalink to a post in a blog. It remains connected to a specific post rather than to the home page of the blog.

[leftchick]

93. aaaahhhh

thank you. I hadn't thought of that, sorry. Juan is indeed a daily must read in these times.

[Nothing Without Hope]

94. Here's how to get Juan Cole's permalink - IMAGE

Here's where to find the permalink for one of Juan Cole's July 21 posts - the hot link is at the date/time stamp after the post. I've circled the hot link for the permalink - I use the "copy link" feature of my browser to get the full URL to post at DU.



The date/time stamp at the end of the post is the permalink in this case. At different web sites, it's handled differently. Sometimes there's a separate hot link associated with the post, conveniently labeled "permalink." Sometimes you click on the title of the post. Sometimes you have to search for it, but a permalink is always there somehow. In extreme cases, I've gone to lists of recent posts on the home page of the site and used the link I found there, but that's usually not necessary.

It's important to use permalinks when posting on a web article; otherwise in a day or two your link will no longer lead to what you're talking about. I had to figure this out the hard way; I certainly didn't know it when I started posting at DU. Maybe I should post a "how-to" thread, since there are many other people who haven't yet realized the importance of permalinks and how to find them.