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You Can Be Against This Insane Bombing And Not "Anti-Israel"

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K8-EEE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 06:32 PM
Original message
You Can Be Against This Insane Bombing And Not "Anti-Israel"
...or "pro-Terrorism."

I would be against displacing half a million people, killing hundred of innocents and destroying an entire country based on two "kidnapping/captures" or whatever...NO MATTER WHO WAS DOING IT.

That's like saying you're "Anti-American" for thinking the "liberation" of Iraq was stupid, cruel, and ineffective.

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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
1. That's like saying you're "Anti-American..."
Of course - people DO say that.

It is obnoxious though.
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 06:36 PM
Response to Original message
2. Just like me.
15 to 1 civilian to combatant casualty ratio is at best a horrible failure, at worst a war crime.

By any civilized standards of military conduct, this operation is a disaster and should be ended.

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Tandalayo_Scheisskopf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 06:37 PM
Response to Original message
3. These are the fine points of discourse...
That are often lost on people in emotional debates.

Like calling someone who objects to the Israeli response, to date, "anti-semitic". Hardly justified, but it is the standard equation of discourse when it comes to such things.

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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
4. BEE EYE ANN GEE OH! -nt
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knowbody0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
5. killing civilians only creates terrorists
i cannot imagine what i would become.

will the human race ever evolve?

you can bet those calling the shots have their loved ones safely away in bunkers.
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DanCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
6.  I dont care who started this. I just want the war too stop. (nt)
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
7. Just Like the GOP Calling Liberals Anti-American
Edited on Thu Jul-20-06 06:47 PM by stepnw1f
same thing, no difference. Aint gonna make me change my mind by calling me either anti-American nor Anti-Israel. And I will continue to denounce the actions of both America and Israel until they stop on this path that has no end in sight.
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chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Absolutely. This is what we stand for as Progressives. Peace. Caring for
humanity.
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Those So-Called Liberals That Defend Israel's Actions
are just as wrong as Bush supporters who defend Invading Iraq and killing civilians. Very perplexing.... and now the House and Senate unanimously support Israel's actions of invading and bombing Lebanon?!
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. the FOG of war
it's like a feeding frenzy.
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. I Only Hope They Come to Their Senses
and try to be impartial when looking at the situation. I can only hope...
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Atman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
8. I'm merely "anti-insane bombing."
and PRO not-bombing. I could give a shit about whether it's Israel lobbing them or George Bush. Bombing an entire country back to the stone age for kidnapping a couple of soldiers, which the full knowledge it could well invoke a wide-scale region (if not WORLD war) is simply insane. Period. Jewish-smewish.
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Vinnie From Indy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
10. You have mentioned the obvious that the Admin & others desperately
do not want discussed. Many inanely argue that you either support Israel's collective punishment policy of wholesale destruction of all infrastructure in Lebanon or you support terrorists. It is tragic that our government seems to not only endorse the massive loss of innocent life, they appear to be delighted. What has America become that we do not even ask both sides to quit fighting? It is beyond tragic.
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K8-EEE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. It's "You're With Us Or Your Against Us", Part II
Exactly -- they are just using this the way they use every tragedy. Violence always works out to benefit BushCo, they set it up that way.
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neoblues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #13
23. Exactly, Remember Who We're Dealing With...
the Republicons (I'm still looking for the right word to indicate those Republicans, Neocons, Right-Wingers, Religious Right Fundamentalists and otherwise insane, violent, hateful, narrow-minded, generally untruthful, twisted thinking people--who vote Republican; Republican isn't exactly right (it's close), so I'll go with Republi-cons for now).

Remembering that with them, it's "all or nothing", "black or white" and never anything in-between; worse yet, it's also common for them to state blatant falsehoods based on pure ignorance (often involving their dictomic thinking), such as "You're with us or against us" or "If you oppose Israel's actions, you're 'Anti-Israel'".

I don't know why such thinking works. I was just listening to some Republican Congressman say "Israel's just going after their infrastructure"..., "So they can rebuild their Democracy". He was arguing somehow that by destroying their country, they would eradicate the "terrorists" so that Lebanon could rebuild their government and do it right this time. Simply insane; but he said it so eloquently and so confidently, I'm sure that many people who haven't thought this through would be agreeing. His "Democratic" (for fair and balanced coverage; wink) opponent was someone who'd really know better as he was older and had previous experience (having been a part of the Congressional peace delegation in Lebanon many years ago when Israel bombed them and Reagan stepped in calling on both sides to stop the fighting)(apparently, it was that act of aggression by Israel that led to the actual birth of Hezbollah; how ironic). Alas, for all his age and experience, his explanations didn't sound confident or were a little complicated or whatever--he was right and expressed pertinent facts, but the flash Republican would come back and say "I disagree... blah, blah, blah" and simply "seemed" to win, hands down. I puzzle over that too, how can the truth and right answer be blown away by someone simply saying "you're wrong" and spouting a few catchy (but fallacious) pre-designed "phrases" with overweening confidence. Perhaps I've answered my own question; confidence is appealing--and the ability to speak well can let someone who is otherwise a dumbass 'beat' someone with real wisdom in terms of convincing an audience.

Some of the things they keep saying bother me. "Israel is the 'victim' here!" (how dare you think otherwise), and they're only 'defending' themselves. If they could actually make effective action against the actual perpetrators, they would have fair grounds for taking action; but bombing a whole region into the stone-age isn't justified by any means. They don't have justification for that type of response. As for being the "Victim", Israel has been abusing and killing Palestinians in unjustified actions for years--not to mention the fact that they are in a sense "occupiers" of their territories, some in a somewhat justifiable manner and others in an unjust manner (and this one is a significant cause for much resentful and/or rebellious behaviors of the Palestinians). Nevertheless, they have been seriously abusive and engaging in 'terrorist' tactics themselves, but when the other side finally gains and uses similar capabilities against them... suddenly they're the "victims". They just don't want anyone within reach of them to have the same capability for offensive behavior as they do. Understandable, especially if those neighbors actually use that capability as Hezbollah did. Still, Israel did overreact--and when you're being shelled by artillery and you have some missiles, is it any surprise that you use them? Indeed the very question of who did what first is hard to answer--and it's not black and white that all of a sudden, Israel is the victim. It depends on exactly what start date you choose; and you can't honestly choose one since it's been back and forth almost continually--and there are potentially valid excuses for retalliation by either side that includes both aggressive actions (violence) as well as offending policies (oppression).

There's no easy answer. However, it's important for Americans to remember one thing... Nothing we hear from (a) the Bush Administration, (b) the Congress, and most importantly, (c) the Mass Media (M$M). They lie. They distort. They mislead. They deceive in everything they do. As sources of information go, within all major "News" providers in the U.S. deception is ubiquitous. If they say it, something's wrong with it. As for our government/politicians, from Republicans (and, alas, many Democrats as well) nothing can be trusted. If they say it, it has been adjusted to manipulate and support their agendas. So, if they say Israel is a victim, it's not. If they say Israel has a complete right to "defend" themselves, somethings been twisted... as in perhaps they aren't "defending" themselves but rather engaging in excessive military response intended to inflict pain on civilians as well as Hamas and Hezbollah...

Nothing is as simple as our leaders would have you believe. It may be that neither side is "right" (almost certainly so); it's a gray area and shifts regularly. Even if the people of Lebanon elected hard-liners against Israel to lead them, they don't deserve to have their cities, towns and villages reduced to rubble. I mean, if people deserved to have their country decimated for having elected violent, insane, terroristic (a new word?), hard-liners (who religiously follow their agendas) to lead their government... we'd better stock up on survival supplies because we did that very thing ourselves. Neocons/Dominionists and Republicans in general all fit those negative descriptions and worse. Having endured much oppression by Israel, they elected leaders who hate Israel. Having suffer a decay of rational thinking and tolerance, we had hate-filled leaders elected either by us, by a defrauded electoral system, or both. Who deserves to suffer here? In both cases, it's those who lead us and those who support them (those who resemble them or, at least, who agree with their leadership). If only there were true justice in the world.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
15. There is something about the issue that brings out emotionality
in some people who support Israel no matter what it does.

They keep resorting to the black and white fallacy and playing the victim.

Criticizing the way Israel defends itself is not saying it has no right to. It's just not the same thing. But over and over you see that accusation.

Poor Israel is surrounded by enemies. Well, since Israel was a created state, why was it created where it would be surrounded by enemies? They knew they would have problems.



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K8-EEE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. One Thing This Has Made Me Realize
Is how you can't criticize anything Israel does without getting pummelled, worse that criticizing the US military.

And I know this sounds very derogatory but it's just a true fact that I never really saw as a problem before now: You cannot run for national office in the US and criticize Israel for being militaristic, no matter how far they go with it. I don't think that's right.

Dems, GOP, nobody will say boo about Israel. They won't even call for a ceasefire, EVERY OTHER NATION WANTS A CEASE FIRE. I just see that as a problem. I don't find any nation (or especially any ARMY) to be beyond scrutiny. Indeed I think every military action should be up to the highest bar as far as necessity and effectiveness, goals how it's carried out, ALWAYS.
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DianaForRussFeingold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 07:03 PM
Response to Original message
16. I think it is Pro-Israel to want this to stop! To continue is insane! Vid
Edited on Thu Jul-20-06 07:08 PM by DianaForRussFeingold
:patriot: :cry: :cry: :cry: I can't think of anything clever to say :cry: I keep going back to this video it is very inspirational! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0F_6plYyTM&search=john%20lennon%20Imagine%20video%20Bill%20Clinton%20Sings%20John%20Lennon%27s%20Imagine%20 :cry: This video is from Shimon Peres's 80th birthday. President Bill Clinton sings John Lennon's 'Imagine' with 16-year old Israeli phenomena Liel, 40 Israeli children, and 40 Arab children! It's quite an inspirational piece!
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K8-EEE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. It's Very Pro Israel To Want It To Stop
They will not survive if they continue on this course, and it's very possible that nobody will. We are in the nuke age after all. We have got to try every possible alternative and get out of this endless cycle of violence.
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BillZBubb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. That is exactly correct. Israel's real friends want it to stop.
It's policies over the past 50 years have been ultimately self-defeating. In the long run, demographics will be Israel's undoing unless it works hard now to make friends, not create enemies by intimidation and destruction.

I want Israel to exist in peace with its neighbors. If it keeps going the way it has, it won't ever see that peace.
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northernsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
19. I'm just pro-human beings
I don't care if you're Israeli, Lebanese or Ecuadorean - your life is more valuable than any insane ideology.
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K8-EEE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. Pro Human Beings.
Exactly.

I really think that in this day and age with the loose nukes and all that, this is the WORST way Israel could react to this problem. It can't possibly do anything but create unbelievable blowback.
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
20. I agree with you 100% n/t
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