Can we clarify something about Israel's actions in Lebanon?

[WilliamPitt]

This is for defenders of Israel.

I've seen this more than a few times: "Israel has a right to defend itself!"

I, for one, do not dispute this. Self-defense is a natural right for both persons and nations, and as far as I am concerned, saying Israel has a right to defend itself is on the same level as saying "Water is wet!"

Israel has a right to defend itself. True.

But here's the thing.

Defense is one thing. Totally disproportionate responses to threats or attacks are another. That is what is happening here. The kill ratio is 10-1, and most of the people dying are innocent Lebanese civilians.

Say I punch you in the face. You can punch me in the face right back. I'd even go so far as to say that you can punch me two or three times, just to make sure I get the message that punching you is dangerous.

Say I punch you in the face. You kill me, my family, my friends, my cat, people who owe me money, and burn my house down. That is a disproportionate response.

I don't dispute Israel's right to defend itself. But this isn't defense.

That's where the outrage is coming from. It's pretty straightforward stuff.

[Ian David]

1. I'll get right on the phone to my family in Israel...

and demand that more of them should die so that my "liberal" friends won't feel cheated.

[WilliamPitt]

4. I don't even know what that means

but I'm not going to push you because I've been reading your posts over the last few days, and I can tell you are really upset about all this.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JerseygirlCT]

56. We have supported Israel through Democratic and

Republican administrations since its founding.

This just isn't a George Bush thing here. His administration hasn't done much to help matters, but that's not Israel's fault.

[madeline_con]

145. We never should have footed the bill from day one.

This is not about who farts in the Oval Office chair. It's about Israel's unjust treatment of people.

[JerseygirlCT]

156. Yeah well, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. nt

[ConservativeDemocrat]

144. What he means is that the argument of a "fair fight" is absurd in war...

I too have been looking at this message board, wondering exactly what the D.U. has become. In the last few days, I've read open calls for Israel's destruction, assertions that Jews control Hollywood And the U.S. National Government, seen Senator Lieberman called a "Jew boy", and browsed thread after thread of overwhelmingly selective outrage against Israel's response to the overt Act Of War that brought about this situation in the first place. I go over to Arab news sites, and I swear, sometimes their commentary is less anti-Semitic than what I routinely read here. They at least acknowledge that Hezboallah started this fight, and wonder about the timing. Some even acknowledge the obvious. Hezboallah has the power to end this war any time they want.

Let me repeat that, William, in case you missed. Hezbo-allah, the self-described "Party of God" (with all the attendant theocratic Shi'ite sanctimony that makes the U.S.'s X-tian theocrats pale in comparison), deliberately engaged in an unprovoked Act of War. And at ANY TIME of their choosing, they can have peace by: 1] Returning the 2 Israelis they kidnapped, 2] Disarm as mandated by binding U.N. Security Council Resolution 1559 - the same resolution that called for Israel to withdraw from Lebanon.

But of course, that particular Inconvenient Truth the anti-Semitic left never acknowledges. Most posters just skip right on past that to spew trite hate-filled diatribes that blame Israel for existing, and spend time to invent new dehumanized "motives" for those evil jews doing these terrible "war-crimes".

Well, I'm having none of it. If Hezboallah - and their "civilian" supporters in Southern Lebanon who are near military targets - choses war, then war is what they deserve.

Wars are not fought to be "proportionate". They are fought to be won. When we were attacked in WW2, FDR did not say, "Well, they bombed Pearl Harbor, let's bomb Tokyo Harbor and call it even - and hope they get the message". We did what it took to insure those attacks never happened again. Neither did we care particularly about the lives of enemy civilians who were actively supporting their governments. Really! Nazi civilians who were manning things that contributed to the Nazi war effort often died from Allied bombs trying to destroy them. Many Nazi "civilians" lost their lives, often even children who didn't understand what their parents were doing. We sometimes destroyed Nazi and Japanese war infrastructure by firebombing entire cities - killing tens of thousands in a day, because doing so meant fewer Allied lives lost.

That is the calculus of War. The lives of people on your side matter. The people on the other side don't. As Patton said so succinctly to GIs invading Sicily, "Your job is not to die for your country. Your job is to make the other poor bastard die for HIS country."

And if they don't like it. They can always choose the peace they should have chosen in the first place.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

p.s. A couple hundred dead? Relatively speaking, Israel is using kid-gloves.

[John Q. Citizen]

152. SF Gate (the SF Chronicle) is reporting that this action

by Israel has been planned and rehearsed for more than a year.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/07/21/MIDEAST.TMP

All the States in the region, including Israel, routinely follow UN resolutions they agree with and ignore resolutions they don't agree with. So that's a moot point. If Israel truly respected UN resolutions, they would return to the Green Line boundaries, declare Jerusalem an international city, and stop their nuclear weapons program.

Hezbollah does claim to be "The Party of God, just as many in Israel claim to be "God's Chosen People." So both sides are apparently megliomaniacal self deluded bigots. So what else is new?

Also, your analysis is faulty because Israel cannot (and doesn't ) expect that this action will result in the destruction of either Hamas or Hezbollah. If that worked, Israel's 22 year occupation of Lebanon (which ended in 2000) and their 40+ year to date occupation of Palestine would have taken care of the problem, right? In fact, this action will only strengthen Hezbollah and Hamas in the long run.

Before you throw around accusations at me about anti-Semitism I would like to point out that Palestinians are Semitic People too. I have a half brother who is Jewish (and an Israeli, he teaches music at the University of Jerusalem)and I certainly worry about him and his family's safety. Which is why I question Israel's actions here. I believe this is making my half brother and his family less safe.

I realize that there are people who are bigots and don't like Jews simply because of their culture and religion, just as there are people who are bigots and don't like Arabs because of their culture and religion. However, to dismiss anyone who questions Israel's actions as anti-semitic is both simplistic and perilous. And that is what your post seemed to imply.

You and Hezbollah and Israel's leadership certainly all agree that war is warranted. So it's good to see that you can all agree on something - I guess.

I think Will Pitt makes a very good point - Israel's actions, in the court of world public opinion, are perceived as way-over the top. All out war may mean just what you say it does, but it comes with a cost. I can't see that this has a long term cost/benefit advantage for Israel.

I'm not sure which reality based community you are proud to be a member of, but have you checked to see if your membership dues are current?

QC- Sad member of the one and only human race.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

211. I'm curious about how your half-brother feels about this

Does he share the same opinion as you do about whether this is warranted?
Why don't you share it with us?


- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

p.s. Israel's occupation of southern Lebanon was an action against the PLO. There is no longer any substantial PLO presence in southern Lebanon, so I'm not sure how that action could be termed "unsuccessful". Indeed, one of the main reasons why the U.S. pushed for Israel to get out of Lebanon in the 90s was that there was no good reason to still be there.

[bling bling]

263. That's not a smoking gun.

I'd be SHOCKED if they didn't have such plans. Do you think this is the only war planning that Israel has in place? I'd bet the house they not only have been planning for this war but they've got a plan in place for every country that could pose a threat to them. Probably a war plan for countries that AREN'T a threat to them, too.

Any country with a military would have such plans, in detail. Sadly, the only country that seems to not take this important measure seriously seems to be the U.S. when we invaded Iraq. The results of which have been disastrous. I should think Israel is a little more imaginitive and realistic with their "strategery" and less likely to fancy themselves being showered with roses while stunningly miscalculating the level of resistence. At least I hope so.

Half the battle is being prepared.

[nadinbrzezinski]

269. Military planning and wargaming

is part of military plans. We have them against countries such as oh I don't know, Mexico... and they are reviewed every so often. Does this mean that we should stop doing that?

Ignorance is bliss... and the SF Gate and you are showing it right now.

[Name removed]

279. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Martin Eden]

237. the ARGUMENT should be about the OUTCOME

Nothing is fair about war. Lives and livelihoods are destroyed. Innocent men, women, and children suffer horribly and die. Before national leaders take action that will result in such carnage, they must have a realistic objective that in the long run will result in better lives for their people.

I make the distinction here between the lives of their people and the lives of those who -- whether enemy or not -- are in the line of fire. All human beings may be of equal value in the eyes of God, but the duty of a government is first and foremost to protect the lives of its own people.

But we must also keep in mind that a total disregard for the lives of people on the other side of the border will likely, in the long run, have dire consequences.

The question here is not who started this latest cycle of violence, or what is justified.

Too often, justifications are rationalizations for actions with results that do not resemble any reasonable definition of justice. War is in many respects the antithesis of justice.

The only real justice here -- or, to be more precise, the only just course of action -- is that which will, in the long run, result in the best possible OUTCOME.

Of course, this is very difficult to know in advance. Nevertheless, it is precisely this kind of judgement that is the most crucial responsibility of government. Wise men do not succomb to their passions, and they have a firm grasp of the possible.

So the question is:

Is the military action being taken by Israel the best course for achieving their long term security and peace in the region? (IMO the two go hand in hand)

[Imagevision]

264. Israel defending itself timing couldn't be better - as civil war in Iraq

reaching out of control proportions. Bush needs to pull off justification for nuking Iran to save November elections,

[kenny blankenship]

8. Well that's kind of psychotic of you. You might consider instead

urging them to persuade their gov't that starting another 40 year cycle of violence is in no one's best interests.

[magellan]

12. Missing the point

And rather intentionally, I think.

Just as it isn't right for terrorists to blow themselves and innocent Israeli civilians up, it isn't right for Israel to rip into Lebanon and kill an inordinate number of civilians the way it has. Two wrongs don't make a right. And in this case, it just perpetuates the violence.

[uppityperson]

19. problem is NOT that not enough Israelis are dying, is that too many Lebane

too many Lebanese are. That is the problem.

[Minnesota Libra]

30. Shouldn't the Lebanese have.............

.....thought about that before they allowed Hezbilloh to fire rockets from their soil into Israel??? You sleep with the enemy you get treated like the enemy.

edited for clarity

[uppityperson]

38. I was responding to post #1, explaining, not getting into a debate

"I am sad people have died" does NOT mean "I wish more of their opponents would die". That is what I am responding to. I am not picking sides here,just clarifying for those that write "more of them should die so that my "liberal" friends won't feel cheated".

[readmoreoften]

42. The lebanese government doesn't have control over Hezbollah.

From what I'm learning, it's more like a loose alliance of factions living together in relative (and I do mean relative) harmony. There is nothing they can do about Hezbollah. It would be like if the born agains had their own army and our national defense was weak. The Sunni, Druze, and Christian Lebanese are about as responsible for Hezbollah as a NYC progressive is responsible for the Talibornagain.

[Minnesota Libra]

58. Well, them maybe they should either get control real quick or..........

....take the consequences. If a person plays with fire long enough they will get burned.

[Crunchy Frog]

65. That sounds a little bit like

the things that Colorado professor Ward Churchill said about the people who died in the WTC on 9/11. I don't agree with him either.

[SledDriver]

85. How do you propose that they do that?

And how are civilians, specifically children, deserving of those consequences?

[readmoreoften]

100. "They" don't have the ability to get control.

Look, it's not as simple as you'd like it to be. Lebanon isn't so much a unified country as a country divided into various states and factions under one umbrella name with a government where the factions rival one another. Almost ALL of the Shia live in one area. Almost ALL of the Christians live in another, etc. Hezbollah IS the government of that state. It'd be like NY telling Texas to disarm, if there were no central government.

[lumpy]

140. Too simplistic.

But then....

[LostinVA]

161. Maybe the police in the US need to get control of all the drug warlords

If they can't, and innocent people are murdered because they live in the same city as the war lords, so what? The Innocent people should have done something about it.

THAT'S the reality of this situation. Too many people on DU are making this into some sort of black and white thing, Israel the Brave vs. Evil Anti-semitics. This is not what is going on.

Another poster had an even better analogy a few days ago: If after the IRA blew up the Manchester pub, would it have been right for the British military to blow up a block of Dublin apartments, Shannon Airport, and a dairy farm in the country? No. THIS is what the situation is.

[snappyturtle]

172. The same could be said of the U.S.

getting control of the insurgents in Iraq. Easier said than done IMHO.

[Alameda]

190. getting control?

Of course, like the way we control what our "elected" officials do....?....this reminds me of the elderly who get evicted because a grandchild gets involved in drugs. Like we can control what our neighbors do...much less know just what they do...

[Truthiness Inspector]

101. Not quite

There is indeed something Lebanon, as a nation, could do about Hezbollah. They could send troops to the Hezbollah hotspots in southern Lebanon. Hezbollah is fucking this up for EVERYBODY here. For Lebanon AND Israel. They are killing Israelis directly, and getting Lebanese killed indirectly.

If Lebanon feels like it can't handle it themselves, they should be asking for international help to eradicate Hezbollah, not calling for a cease-fire, thus sparing Hezbollah to kill again once/if things subside---and the reality of Hezbollah responding to any UN resolutions is another matter entirely.

While I find the fact that Lebanon has 23 Hezbollah members on their Parliament a contradiction when people say Hezbollah is not the Lebanese government (it obviously is indeed a part of it), I also do not believe the Lebanese people want Hezbollah wreaking mayhem in and for their country. In fact, I think the majority of Lebanese want Hezbollah gone perhaps as much as Israelis do. THIS should be the focus of any agreements and brokerings for peace, in my opinion. The Lebanese government, for the most part, and Israel share this common goal.

[readmoreoften]

103. From what I understand.

If the Sunni, Druze, and Christian communities were to try to disarm Hezbollah it would cause a civil war which would completely destablize the region. I think that the non-Hezbollah Lebanese are in a catch-22.

[CJCRANE]

193. Exactly - they already had a civil war

and what they have now is the shaky alliances from trying to end that war.

[pitohui]

114. why don't they arrest them?

what's wrong w. catching terrorists and putting them on trial and locking them away?

as far as i'm concerned, if mullah omar had done that instead of taking $$$ to harbor osama, i'd have no quarrel with afghanistan, but he did, and we do

giving money to terrorists, harboring them, providing your gov't w. deniability by having a go between to attack your enemy -- well, sorry, it's hard for me to have much sympathy here

we rightly i think went into afghanistan after they harbored terrorists who attacked us

israel has a duty to its people to do the same when lebanon harbors terrorists under the excuse that they can't control them, whatever that means

usa goes into other countries and arrests criminals who are provoking us terribly quite often, i suppose the famous example would be manuel noriega, why shouldn't israel be able to do the same if the other country in the equation is unwilling or unable to get matters under control?

the sooner the terrorists are gone from lebanon, the better for everyone, in my humble opinion, if lebanon won't root them out, israel isn't left much choice

[readmoreoften]

126. I didn't say that Israel shouldn't fight back.

I wasn't saying that Israel shouldn't get rid of Hezbollah. I'm saying that the Lebanese can't get rid of Hezbollah on their own without starting civil war. You can't just control 30% of your population. 30% of the population supports Hezbollah and are batshit insane. I think they are betting on Israel being more capable of taking them out than they are. They're probably right.

[I_Make_Mistakes]

45. Ok let's blow up all of Pendleton NY because after all they

raised Timothy McVeigh and then we can go after every state he lived in and murder 168 x 10 = 1680 and then lets kill how many in Columbine because they let the Devil live there. You are not a nice person and thank God you don't live near me because by your own insanity, you would get me killed because of your stupid for tat computation.

You should really relocate, so you can get your blood thirst on!

[blonndee]

48. ...

:thumbsup:

[Minnesota Libra]

60. Who is talking about Timothy McVeigh?? That doesn't make sense. nt

[uppityperson]

62. it is a comparison

[I_Make_Mistakes]

71. Re read your assinine post about sleeping with the enemies.

[Minnesota Libra]

75. I have one personal rule...........

....when someone starts getting personal with their insults I hit the ignore button.

My comment was "...that doesn't make sense." I didn't get personal about it.

Your comment was "...your assinine post...." So that's the end of our discussions.

[I_Make_Mistakes]

77. Liar Liar pants on fire, You said that my post made no sense

I quess personal depends on who is commenting. Please ignore me, the words you said do not fit in my Christian realm anyway. I dust my feet and run away.

[LostinVA]

162. Perfect analogy, making perfect sense

And, that's why some poster will dismiss it.

[Marie26]

249. Please, no more analogies!

Pro-Israel or anti-Israel; they're never particularly helpful. Everyone can create an analogy that's simply a reflection of their own perception.

[w4rma]

72. The Lebanese government didn't have the power to stop them then and they

have even less power to stop them now.

[ShortnFiery]

80. Hello! They are part of the fabric of lebanese society ...

Do not make the mistake of LABELING Hezbollah with one broad "Terrorist Thug" brush. Don't let the corporate media brain wash you into believing that "they all are the devil incarnate. This is sick stuff. :(

In addition to being active in humanitarian and public works, they hold 23 seats in the Lebanese government. Like Hamas in Gaza, Israel has NO RIGHT to destroy a democratically elected element of Lebanon's government just because they have a few radicals in their organization.

For example, Timothy McVeigh was Catholic. By your extrapolation does that mean we must eradicate all Catholics off of the face of the planet?

Not all of Hezbollah is evil and no, even if you tried your damnest, you will not ever destroy their organization. The forgoing is based on Centuries of Military History. You can not WIN this WAR against an interwoven part of the Lebanese fabric of society.

Gee, how bout' negotiations and the consideration of a prisoner swap?

[kineneb]

99. similar to Irish situation

Sinn Fein has both civilian, democratically elected, representatives, and an uncontrolled, militant arm. Neither controls the other.

I doubt the elected Hezbollah representatives were able to get the militant wing to back off. Hence the problem.

But, by attacking Lebanon as a proxy for Hezbollah, Israel has made the same fatal mistake as the US has by occupying Iraq. All this action will do is escalate the violence. Violence begets violence.

I fear for all of our safety, as the leaders of so many nations seem to have gone off the deep end, reverting to using their reptilian brain to solve complex problems.

Meditating for peace and harmony between all peoples,
kb

[readmoreoften]

102. Well, they are not murderous thug terrorists.

They are a murderous thug government. They only really govern the Shia areas in the south, but they are the government there. The Sunni, Druze, and Christian areas of the country despise Hezbollah and would love to be rid of them but they don't have the firepower. I side with the jews for peace and the Sunni, Druze, and Christian lebanese sections who never wanted this to happen.

[DoYouEverWonder]

92. Can't the same be said for us?

Shouldn't we be held accountable for allowing our government to invade and destroy Iraq?

Doesn't Iraq have a right to exist? Don't the Iraqi people have a right to defend themselves? If so, does that mean the Iraqis should target US troops and bases, or better yet come to the US and attack us here?

[robinlynne]

198. They would have every right to. (the iraquis)

[Mynameissalvatore]

111. The Lebanese didn't allow Hezbollah to fire rockets

The Syrian military had been in Lebanon for decades and they allowed Hezbollah to set up shop. Now the Syrians are gone and the Lebanese have only recenty begun to put an army together to defend itself. They don't even have enough of an army to get rid of Hezbollah yet. Israel is right to attack Hezbollah and even send troops into Southern Lebanon and establish some order there but destroying the infrastructure and killing civilians serves no purpose.

[Bluerthanblue]

121. can you stop bush from

waging war in Iraq?- hell, we're not only sleeping with the enemy- we ARE the enemy-
And none of us have been able to stop this fresh hell that has become america.

Easy to judge Lebanon- just as it was easy to damn the Taliban for bin laden being in the country-
We should be judged guilty for Tim McVeigh, and The Columbine kids, and how many other domestic terrorists.....

[madeline_con]

147. Give me a break!

When I hear gunshots in my neighborhood (which I often do), the last thing I do is run off down the street to try and get the people to stop! How would you propose I (or the Lebanese) do that?
:eyes:

[arikara]

230. I kinda don't think any of the babies

that have been butchered had any power over rockets fired from within an arbitrary border. Do you really think that Lebanese civilians have any more power over the war machine than the Israeli civilians do?

This war and killing on all sides is just plain wrong, and someone has to have the humanity to step back from it.

[Scriptor Ignotus]

178. try telling that to an Israeli -nt

[Snivi Yllom]

216. Maybe Hezbollah should stop hiding among civilians

The Lebanese peoples biggest obstacle to their peace and propserity is not Israel, it's Hezbollah.

[wiley]

68. I understand your anger, IanDB1. The concept of proportionate response

is meaningless when fighting an enemy whose stated goal is to eliminate your existence because of who you are. How frequently have we heard Iran, Hezbollah, Al'Qaeda or Hamas declare "Death to all Jews", regardless of where they live? Turkey is raring to go and kill as many Kurds as they can. What would be the Kurds proportionate response to such an assault? Jews are not fighting the people of Lebanon, but Hezbollah and others who would have them gone. I've seen several posts on this board that Israel is really trying to just "Kill all Arabs". That's just plain old innacurtate.

When the goal of most Islamic terrorists, and most of the leaders of Islam is to either actually kill Jews (and Arabs and anyone else who defies their insane proclamations and laws based on their interpretation of Islam) or make them horribly suffer, how can anyone count the number of dead, even if it's 52, and rationally determine an appropriate response to an attack?

I've heard this reasoning somewhere before. Let's see, 3000 people were murdered on 9/11 in the US. That's a concept used to accept as tolerable "collateral damage", such as the death of civilians, by those who would barter x number of their people or inhabitants to advance or halt any type of aggression or war caused by a dispute over assets or resources, not genocide based on religion or a geo-political agenda. I guess the concept of proportionate response is not applicable to the probably two million people who have been murdered in the Darfur region. The US is justified in killing how many Iraqis? I'm just not buying it.

[RaleighNCDUer]

88. Proportionate response would be measured in quality, not

quantity.

Inaccurate, relatively primative missiles come down in Israel, usually in open fields doing no damage. When they do damage, they usually kill civilians.

Israel has the capability of responding with attacks on the militias attacking them. But they also attack Lebanese military bases, ports, airports, power stations, etc., infrastructure of the Lebanese government. It is an attack on Lebanon, not on Hezbollah. And in the attack that are many, many civilian casualties which could have been avoided with a more limited, pin-point attack on their enemies. The Israeli response is no proportionate.

It's been suggested that the Lebanese government should move into S Lebanon and take out Hezbollah itself - well, how are they going to do that when the Israelis have blown out all the bridges, making troop movements difficult, if not impossible.

Somebody, somewhere, is hoping that Syria and/or Iran will try to prevent their Hezbollah clients destruction, and will move on Israel, prompting Israel to respond against Syria and Iran - a prime chance to bomb the Iranian nuke facilities. If that happens, we WILL jump in to support Israel, because that was the plan all along. Provoke, then retaliate. That's why there's been no response from our government, more than a week after the shit began.

Our neocons are dealing with their neocons, and they plan to re-make the middle east according to their vision.

[AntiFascist]

143. Exactly, that's why there is a method to this madness...

and they're banking on Americans being too dumb to figure out that they're being played (with some help from the media, of course). The bases in Iraq will probably come in handy as well

[hlthe2b]

73. I join Will in wanting to show you compassion IanDB1...

It must be incredibly stressful to have family at risk. But, surely you can appreciate the same sense of anguish among those with family in Lebanon? Is it not possible to realize that most in Lebanon do not support Hezbollah nor share their desire to cause harm to Israel? Yet they too suffer death and destruction because of the presence of Hezbollah? I sincerely hope that you can. (and my best wishes for the safety and well-being of your family)

[Mr_Spock]

108. That's a childish response

:eyes:

[lfairban]

151. Maybe this will make you feel better.

You can take comfort in knowing that for every one of your family members that die at least ten Lebanese and Palestinians will be killed by the Israeli Defense Forces.

Perhaps seeing the death of so many innocent people as a response to the killing of your family members who are just as innocent will give you peace of mind, but it is not the way good Christians behave. Is there some reason that Israelis cannot behave like good Christians?

:shrug:

[LiberalEsto]

176. He's saying fewer Lebanese civilians should die

You're twisting things around.

[HamdenRice]

177. It's so sad

You and so many other otherwise progressive supporters of Israel's policies cannot even discuss this issue rationally.

[Name removed]

182. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Wonk]

2. Well said. k & r

[Caoimhe]

3. Agreed 100%

This isn't defense. Lobbing bombs from afar isn't defense.

[cali]

5. All that is true

but the outrage clearly has far deeper roots.

[burythehatchet]

98. It is precisely that sentiment that has many people

including me, scratching our heads in puzzlement. Because I don't consider Israel or Israelis or Jews any more special than anyone else, it seems that for you that translates to I consider them less special. I don't. This is classic persecution complex - believing that you should be treated in a special way.

I do resent the so called "special relationship", not because the US shouldn't have a best friend, but because it makes it impossible for the US to be a broker for peace, (with the exception of Jimmy Carter who is an extraordinary human being). When the US and Israel are the only two votes against the rest of the world on so many resolutions, where does that leave the rest of the world? And NO, the UN is not biased against Israel.

So when you mention the "deeper roots", you necessarily imply something does not exist for the most part, though I'm sure there are exceptions. And with that implication comes a great deal of resentment on my part. There are a couple of posters here who I honestly believe need intensive therapy. I don't include you in that group. You know who they are.

[cali]

148. Really?

You must be psychic to have gotten all that from one line. No where-ever- have I implied that Israelis are Jews have a special status. Makes me wonder how you could read so much into my statement. Why not just ask what I meant before leaping to an erroneous conclusion?

for the record (and if you'd actually been reading my posts in these threads, it would be obvious) I don't support the unbalanced Israeli U.S. relationship. I don't support the money we give to Israel, and I haven't the vaguest idea whether the U.N. is biased against Israel.

What I meant was simple: the animus so many countries in the mid east feel towards Israel goes deeper than any one incident; it goes back to the founding of the country.

Resentment? I certainly resent you twisting my few words to mean something they didn't mean, and only a contortionist could possibly have twisted them into.

Now, will I get an apology from you? Nah, I sincerely doubt that you'll exhibit that kind of grace.

[Violet_Crumble]

175. I suspect Will was talking about outrage he's seen here at DU...

..not the outrage of Middle Eastern countries. I highly doubt that the outrage expressed here has deep roots at all....

[cali]

6. self-delete

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

212. Best post I've ever read from you. nt.

[AX10]

7. For me, Israel is will go over the line if they do invade Lebanon...

with a ground force.

[leftchick]

9. more like 100-1 kill ratio

348 Lebanese Dead, 29 Israelis. I am bad at math but it is obviously terribly wrong.

[WilliamPitt]

11. 300 to 30, approximately, from those numbers

is 10-1.

[leftchick]

29. I told you I was bad at math

I can't help thinking of all of the people not yet counted under all of that rubble as well.

:(

[Caoimhe]

32. Its ok so am I .. thank god for solar calculators! n/t

[lfairban]

155. Just thought of something.

When the German occupying Belgium in the First World War, were snipped at by resistance forces, didn't they threaten to kill 10 civilians for ever soldier killed?

This kind of reminds me of that.

[ladjf]

50. And beyond the "body count", when Israel withdraws, Lebanon

and Palestine will be in a state of physical and political collapse. It will take them ten more years of struggle to return to where then were in early June of this year. Israel, on the other hand, will have some families grieving for their losses. The houses will be rebuilt. Israel as a Country will have lost next to nothing in the operation, not one bridge, not one road, not one aircraft, no airports and no lawmakers killed or kidnapped. They will even have have their armaments replaced by the U.S., their partner.

[bdamomma]

277. they are committing genocide, just like in Iraq

these people should be held accountable, our own government is fueling this fire, to get naive americans to get on the bush band wagon of invading another country. sick.

[dufrenne]

10. to

use your analogy (kind of)...if someone sneaks into my house at night and punches my family member in the face, and I have a gun, I'm going to go Cheney on them. Yes it's disproportionate, considering it was only a punch, but justified under the circumstances. People can whine about it all they want, but what do you expect when a group kidnaps two soldiers, kills 6 others, then fires 1600 rockets into your cities. I think Israel is being quite restrained! It might be an easy calculus for some, but if any one of us were the president of Israel, I don't think it would be so easy.

[Caoimhe]

25. let me get this straight

the family across the street is big.. maybe even illegal aliens, but you aren't sure, with like 12 children, some neices and nephews, an uncle or two, some aunts, gramma and a dog. The dad hurts a family member of a friend of yours. Do you start tossing TNT at your neighbors house hoping to get his 12 children, the aunts uncles nephews neices and dog?

Keep trying to explain it away, it makes no sense to me.

[dufrenne]

35. LOL ...this is fun

ok...if the dad took my wife hostage and disappeared, and some of his conspirators in the kidnapping were hiding in the house across the street, I would through the TNT (hoping I hit the conspirators and not the dog)... of course, our analogies are now assuming no police..lol.

[Minnesota Libra]

55. Maybe this will help explain what I think some mean..............

....when they try to make it personal.

Maybe some people don't see where an eye for an eye has ever worked to keep the Arabs/Hamas/Hezbillah from killing Israelis. So maybe some people are saying the Israelis should go for an arm and a leg for each eye.

[tocqueville]

37. well I can tell you that - with your example

in any European country you'll get 10 years for manslaughter. Killing somebody isn't justified because of a punch and because it's at night and you are angry. You have NO excuses. If you really feel threatened you can point your gun at the person and beg someone to call the police. If the person is unarmed, you'll lose your license and probaly get a heavy fine or jail under probation.

Settling scores with guns is for western movies. It doesn't belong to a civilized society.

I do hope that this example is NOT representative for the average DUer, or else M.Moore is even righter than I thought.

[dufrenne]

49. Actually,

if someone invades your home and threatens you with physical violence, you have no duty of retreat and in many jurisdicitons can use deadly force to protect yourself. I.e. you don't have to wait to see what kind of harm he intends before acting. Again, that's why I used the house example (as opposed to merely on the street).. I'm not sure about European law, but I'm sure it would be similar regarding home invasions. Outside of the home, if a man jumps your wife and starts beating her, you could also use deadly force. It's actually a measure of civilized society that balances the rights of protection vs. criminal rights.

[many a good man]

64. Actually, the law you cite requires proportionality

Every state law I've ever heard of has a condition that the use of force must be proportional. You can only use a gun if your attacker has a gun. If he only has a knife you can't use a gun. You can't kill someone unless you're reasonably sure the other guy is credibly trying to kill you. Otherwise YOU are guilty of a crime.

[dufrenne]

69. Not

the case if its a home invasion. If someone invades your hope and threatens you with physical harm, you have the right to use deadly force. And it is not the case that you can only use a gun if some one else has a gun. The test is whether you are threatened with imminent bodily harm and do not have a duty to retreat (depending on the state). If someone threatens you with a knife and there is no duty to retreat, you can shoot him.

[Bridget Burke]

224. If someone throws a rock through your window.....

You'd get your gun, kick in your neighbor's door & kill everyone you find. After all, one member of that family MIGHT have thrown the rock.

[tocqueville]

70. That is probably true for some US juridictions

but not in Europe. If you shoot at someone stealing on your property without even harming him, you go to jail for a much longer period of time than the burglar.

Self-defense and specially the use of lethal force can only be accepted when there is a direct death threat upon you. Most of the time you have to prove that you killed without intent.

A civilized society delegates legal violence to the state. I know that it is very "unamerican". You are not allowed to use more violence in self protection than the violence used against you.

Besides criminals don't have any "special criminal rights". They have the right to a fair trial.

[dufrenne]

76. we're

not arguing different points. Yes, in the US, you can't use deadly force to protect property - even in the home. I.e. you can't shoot one who invades the home in order to steal. Similarly, you can't set up traps in your home in anticipation of theft. However, if someone enters a home violently, with the intent to harm you or family members, you can use deadly force. I think what we have here is a couple of lawyers arguing self-defense lol ;)

[pitohui]

118. real robbers don't hesitate to rape if the home is occupied

i think toqueville is arguing like a lawyer, but everyone knows in the real world that robbers who do home invasions are not cute cat burglars out of some 1950s movie, they are drug addicts who upon finding a helpless woman in the home are happy to make a meal of her

no law enforcement official would advise someone to sit around and try to read the mind of a home invader, you do what you must to defend yourself and if that means blowing the bad guy away, who cares

[muriel_volestrangler]

153. That's 'the real world'?

That's a hopeless caricature. Robbers are interested in getting money and possessions - that's what 'rob' means. They're not there for sex - that's 'rapists'.

You have the right of self defence. In your own home, you are given more latitude for what is 'reasonable'. But in Britain, your acts must be 'proportionate'. So you can't shoot someone just because they're stealing your property. You also can't shoot someone when they're fleeing.

To bring the burglar analogy closer to the Israel-Lebanon situation, it's as if you saw a burglar running off down the street with your video, and you started shooting all over the street, despite there being many by-standers, and when the thief ducks into a convenience store, you follow and fire at random in there, on the grounds that you'll get him sooner or later.

Or was your whole post meant to be satire? I don't really expect to see "who cares" about killing someone on DU. Coupling that with your ridiculous assertion "real robbers don't hesitate to rape", it does look like something from Bob Boudelang.

[pitohui]

115. what the hey?

you must be joking w. us, toqueville

i can assure you that if a man breaks into my home at night and i pick up the gun by my bed and blow him away there is not a sheriff in louisiana who will arrest me or a jury who would convict me

a person has to right to be secure in her own home

i kind of agree w. the other poster, lob 1,600 missiles at israel, you lose my sympathy, there is nothing in being "civilized" that requires me to abandon self preservation or preservation of my family

[tocqueville]

133. in Louisiana maybe

not in France (or other European countries, what I know of)

besides the vast majority European families are unarmed - or if armed (for hunting) the weapon must be kept in such a way that direct access is made difficult.
the vast majority European families are not afraid of someone coming at night
most robberies in Europe happen when people are away
most robbers are unarmed

I have a feeling that the story of the robber at night etc... is mostly a myth invented by the NRA. I think that M.Moore produced statistics that show that only one in seventeen average cases of firing a gun is justified (that is to say protecting yourself of direct bodily harm).

[pitohui]

137. some myth she said bitterly

it prob. is a myth in europe which is the great thing abt visiting there

it is no myth here, it has happened to people i know

[tocqueville]

158. it happens here too

but it's the exception

[bloom]

39. My analogy.

You have a family of 10 in a house. Another family comes along with guns and kills 4 of them, drives away 2 and forces the other 4 to live in the basement - takes away their resources and means of self defense. They send scraps to the basement. The family on top is receiving boatloads of guns and bombs and food and other things from friends. They also build a wall around the place. Every now and then the people in the basement do something that makes the people on top mad - they sing loudly - other stuff. They are annoying.

A friend of the family that are living in the basement throws a firebomb at the house - it kills one person and injures another - they also steal the dog of the invading family. They are hoping to free the people or something - they don't know - they don't have the means to get the people above to leave - they are just mad. The people in the basement don't want to leave - because they still have hope of getting their house back and if they leave they never will.

After the firebombing - the friends of the family on top kill the remaining members of the family who left - and they shoot up the houses of the firebombers and their friends - killing about 12. They let the people stay in the basement :shrug: but they really hope that they get fed up and leave.


________________

On edit - If you think it changes things - we could say that the first family was driven out of their house by a maniac. That's why they went and found the other house. (But it still doesn't make it ok).

[dufrenne]

52. lol

I stopped reading after the first paragraph. Analogies usually are used to simply things....your example is more complex than the actual war! LOL! ;)

[bloom]

57. LOL

Oh well. It was fun anyway.

[Bridget Burke]

225. Complexity confounds the simple-minded.... n/t

[LostinVA]

163. Apples and oranges n/t

[Jade Fox]

266. What do you think the world would be like.....

if everyone responded as you suggest? You're comparing punching someone in the face with shooting someone in the face. How psycho is that? Not everyone has a hair-trigger temper and a chip on their shoulder like the person you're describing. That's why we sometimes approach civilization in this world.

And don't you dare call it whining. People are trying to make sense of this situation and stop more bloodshed. Regardless of how old you are, yours is the world view of an adolescent male. And I bet you've never been anywhere near any kind of warfare.

[Pavulon]

13. You (not the OP) swing a bat

I fire a 12 ga. Fuck pulling punches.

This is a PROXY WAR, smell the coffee.

[uppityperson]

14. I'm beginning to understand why people say "right to defend self"

but I don't agree with what Israel is doing. The disproportionate response is so Hezbullah will (hopefully go away but barring that) not bother Israel again because they know what will happen. Reminds me of MAD, but more 1 sided, or like getting a huge fine for breaking a law because that, in theory, will keep you from doing whatever it was again.

That said, I do not agree with it. Still disproportionate, still killing innocents.

[babylonsister]

15. Yes! That's how I feel, too. I'm not anti-semitic, but Israel's

response is out of control and not only are they killing people, but annihilating a country.

[Caoimhe]

22. Oh but you are anti-semite

You have to tow the line or you will be accused. Just warning you babylon. BTW I've enjoyed your balanced posts from the last few days. Forgive me if I have you confused with someone else. Accept the compliment anyway. :pals:

[babylonsister]

34. Hi, Caoimhe.

Thanks for the compliment, if it was indeed directed at me! :)
I've seen the attack dogs, which is why I am trying to stay balanced. I feel strongly in Israel's right to defend themselves, but think they went too far. And I'm furious at our government for dragging their feet every which way, from not attempting diplomacy to not getting citizens out without charging them for the favor. But with these bunch of clowns in office, I expected nothing less. And for anyone to think that Kindasleezy is going to go over there and make everything better, they're beyond delusional.

[Caoimhe]

40. You are very welcome babylon

and I can't help but think that Madeline Albright would have the "cajones" to step in and say NOW is the right time! Condi has been a disgrace in both jobs she's "graced" in this Administration. I am deeply saddened that we aren't pushing for both sides to cut the shit out!

[ourbluenation]

16. Thank You. I love the Jewish people but I'm pissed at Israel right now

they're going to far...

in the end this will cause them more harm than they realize.

[oneold1-4u]

18. "innocent Lebanese civilians."

Who live with an illegal terrorist group in their midst and condone their jihad terror and help them every day to gather and hide more arms against Israel!
Repeating: there are no civilians, women, or children in these terrorist groups that defy even their own government. Women and children become their weapons mostly by force of the men or willingly!

[WilliamPitt]

21. Um

Lebanon's democracy isn't strong enough yet to rein these guys in. But the 14 factions that comprise Lebanese politics got together some weeks ago to discuss ways of disarming Hezbollah. At least part of the reason this all popped off is because Hezbolla reacted to the disarmament discussion by grabbing some IDF soldiers.

Besides which, collective punishment is barbaric.

[DireStrike]

23. How do you know what those people condone or do?

Do you also think that we Americans condone our administration's illegal behaviors and help them every day to send more arms to Israel?

[Caoimhe]

31. YES. It is done in our name, sadly. n/t

[H2O Man]

26. Sure.

These darned people that got upset by the US military wiping out the Indians at Sand Creek and Wounded Knee just don't have the benefit of this wonderfully clear thinking. The old people, women, and children all lived with .... well, their families -- willingly. And we all know that the only "good Indian" ....

[hlthe2b]

79. Thanks, H2O Man for bringing it home.... Great point...

[Joe Fields]

207. I know the history of Sand Creek, and I know the history of

Wounded Knee. I do not think the analogy you made here applies.

If the Hezbollah were rounded up into one encampment and disarmed, and then the Israelis slaughtered them, then I could understand your equating the two scenarios. But that is not the case. (Note, I know that Sand Creek and Wounded Knee were different, in so far as that Wounded Knee was a reservation)

[H2O Man]

229. I'm not concerned

with what you think you know. The mere fact that you write "...I know that ... Wounded Knee was a reservation" exposes that you really don't know what you think you know. I'm not concerned with that, either.

[Joe Fields]

242. I know that you like to think of yourself as the only authority here on

Native Americans. You sure tout it enough. I don't go around bragging about what I know, or what I have done usually. And I will refrain from doing so now. But I do know enough that I can tell you that your analogy is a lame one.

[H2O Man]

260. You're silly. n/t

[Joe Fields]

262. That's what people tell me. But at least, when I make an argument,

it is sturdy enough to hold H2O, man!

[H2O Man]

268. Perhaps someday

you will be kind enough to provide an example. Until then, I can only go by the things I've seen you present on this forum.

[Joe Fields]

270. Pick one and clue me in, bubba.

Your Native American analogy was a glaring example of a faulty analogy. How lame it is for you to issue a blanket statement. Now THAT'S silly.

Your turn.

[H2O Man]

271. I feel no need

to clue you in. You seem to assume that you opinion is of interest to me, and that I have a need of convincing you of something. I do not really care what you think. You are entitled to your point of view .... I won't go so far as to call it an opinion, as an opinion implies there is some factual foundation. Yours is lacking. The example of Wounded Knee should do. If not, we could go with your silly statement about "authorities" on Indian issues. Anyone who claims to be one, surely isn't. But it is something that exists in between your ears, no where else. And, last, saying you disagree with an example does not make it "glaring" anything ... except obvious your have little understanding, as your "Wounded Knee" nonsense showed.

[Joe Fields]

272. It must be of in interst to you. You keep replying. Your response

is typical of someone who doesn't have a solid argument.

[H2O Man]

274. Your confuse

mild amusement with interest in your thinking. As of yet, you have not identified anything that is wrong with my earlier post, except you disagree. Perhaps that is a shortcut to a rational debating point in your world. I'm still waiting for a single fact that you base your position on -- unless you still believe that your ability to identify Wounded Knee as a "reservation" has anything to do with what I said.

[Joe Fields]

275. You could not have read my original response to you, then,

because that is the response that laid bare your analogy. But then, I am not surprised. Where do you find the time to continue answering me? I thought you'd be too busy with your continuous postings. You know, you aren't too original, when not researching and spouting quotes from famous dead people. This has become tedious. I've made my point. This is beginning to remind me of a McLaughlin Group segment.

[H2O Man]

276. Gosh.

I'm crushed.

[BillZBubb]

28. The words of a true fanatic.

Keep it up. Keep repeating that pyschotic nonsense and you'll be bobbing your head to O'Lielly soon.

Maybe when your reason returns (if ever) you will consider that Lebanon is multi-cultural. There are large Christian areas without any Hezbollah influence. Israel has bombed those areas. Are the people that died there not innocent enough for your bloodlust and irrationality?????

[Caoimhe]

43. You are right

this isn't just Hezbollah dying. So what, then? How to explain this? These people are living their lives. I keep hearing how Hezbolah has infiltrated them and is hiding bombs in their childrens rectums and that explains why those little kids need to die. I declare BULLSHIT!

[nashville_brook]

46. spot on

[Ariana Celeste]

47. According to wikipedia..

And I know wikipedia isn't always right...

Lebanon is estimated 60% Muslim, and the rest Christian (of varied denominations).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon#Demographics

[humantech]

281. So the solution to the conflict is....

Letting the Hezbollah militants ( who, btw have set up camp amongest the populace ON PURPOSE so that comments like yours are easy to make, and they can demoralize supporters of israel by using negative media spin and mounting death count to make you unable to garner support) continue to suicide bomb and send rockets to Israel?
I spose Israel could ask the U.N for help....maybe uh..get a resoltuion- WAIT!
They've already DONE that--- THE UN DIDNT STOP THEM. LEBANON DIDNT STOP THEM.
I spose its the better part of valor on Israels part to let the rockets fly into civilian areas and just say its " part of livin in the desert!"
and please.
Stop confusing people who are willing to go to war over something with people who have bloodlust.
The distinction is not that hard to make
Hezbollah- suicide bombers aimed at civilians. Hiding their bases under mosques and in the general populace and terrorizing those Christian Lebanese. Sneaky fighting aimed at MAXIMUM LOSS OF LIFE BY NON COMBATANTS. That is bloodlust.

Israel- Usese military strikes to attack those who KEEP KILLING THEIR CIVILIANS ON PURPOSE. Withdrew and followed the peace process. drop leaflets with warnings to the civilians BEFORE THEY ATTACK. Attack infrastructure and allow aid in once they secure the route. - thats a country trying to do what needs to be done with the least amount of civilian suffering.

There are a lot of victims of the media barrage that is coming our way that puts moral equivalancy on certain acts- Israel is working as hard as they can to keep this clean, butHezbollah WANTS you to be ashamed of them for defending themselves. Why do you think the Hezbollah Joker was on television yesterday ( conveniently no where NEAR his men) apologizing for the 2 children killed in Israel. Has Hezbollah EVER apologized before?
Nope.
Psyops---
Pay attention - you are being manipulated ---

[tocqueville]

44. That's exactly what the freepers say about the Iraqis

and when some GIs massacre a family, the standard answer is "they are all terrorists".

[Caoimhe]

54. exactly n/t

[stepnw1f]

233. yup (nt)

[WritingIsMyReligion]

113. That's like saying all Americans support the Reich Wingers.

Do we all? Of course not. Please stop telling us how all Lebanese citizens are supporting Hezbollah.

[Bluerthanblue]

123. women and what is just shy of children as well as men

are what we are sending into Iraq, and Afghanistan to kill other people-
And we have an all volunteer military at present-

I don't condone what our military is doing- but the world would never know that, from what they are able to see- one is state sponsored, and fed with our tax dollars-

Another is a grass roots group operating with-in a nation, getting their funding where ever they can-

Both are involved with the business of death and destruction.
And what does it matter to the dead, whether they died as a result of a governmental weapon, or a 'terrorist's- the person is no less dead-

[rman]

149. Hezbollah has a minority presence in the Lebanese parliament

So most Lebanese don't support Hezbollah as a political movement. Presumably even less support its terrorist actions. By far most of them don't "condone" Hezbollah's actions any more than Americans condone US govt actions in Iraq.
Also the fact that members of terrorist groups don't count as civilians doesn't mean all civilians belong to a terrorist group.
But to Israel all Lebanese and all Palestinians are valid targets, either directly or indirectly (ie by destroying infrastructure because it *can* be used by terrorists.

[Pacifist Patriot]

154. *shudder* That sounds like you are quoting from Freeperville.

[LostinVA]

164. You kinda have your facts wrong in your post

But, you already know that, and you don't give a damn.

[titoresque]

183. HELLO!

Do you live in America?! Look around buddy.
You think because you're liberal you're not just lumped right into being an "American" as far as the world is concerned?
The world is watching and they think we're the biggest terrorists of all.

YOU are living with a illegal terrorist group. YOU, being an American seemingly doing nothing to stop these terrorists are condoning their jihad terror and helping them every day to gather and hide more arms against.......the WORLD, er....."terrorists"

Wake up.

[SOS]

194. "children become their weapons"

Words fail.
nt

[RaleighNCDUer]

20. This is self defense, Chicago style --

"One of them pulls a knife, you pull a gun. They put one of yours in the hospital, you put one of theirs in the morgue."

Sean Connery, The Untouchables.

Only problem is, this isn't tit for tat between armed forces. The one side, using unreliable, unguided rockets, hits civilian targets. The other side, using reliable, well guided weapons, hits civilian targets with much greater efficiency.

Terror vs collective punishment.

Neither side is the good guys.

[chimpymustgo]

24. K and R. Thanks, Will. nt

nt

[bridgit]

27. defense is one thing, assault is another, israel has perpetrated...

mayhem

[K8-EEE]

33. Bingo Will. And What About The Lebanese?

Don't they have the right of self-defense? They are doing such a sloppy job of this, killing innocents while the ones they're after just keep on keepin' on.

I totally agree with your post, 100%.

[warrior1]

41. k&r

[Cocoa]

36. none of this is straightforward

that's one thing I'm sure of.

[theanarch]

78. Fuck the analogies...

...and let's stick to the issue as it is. Israel occupied southern Lebanon for 18 years precisely to exterminate Hezbollah; not only could they NOT accomplish that, they (the IDF) were MILITARILY defeated after 18 years of off- but mostly on-again war, and had to retreat, rather precipituously, back to Israel with their tails between their legs. Between the withdrawal and the current invasion, Israel never stopped fucking with Lebanon...air raids, naval and heavy artillary bombings, lobbing cruise missiles into mostly of poor, Shia residential neighborhoods, targeted assassinations, etc. To which Hezbollah responded as they always do--rockets and cross-border raids on (mostly, but not always) military posts (BTW: Israel has positioned many of its military bases/supply depots right next to predominately Arab villages in Northern Israel as a deterrent to Hezbollah rockets; see Jonathan Cook's piece in yesterdays www.counterpunch.com). This has been the status quo...until now. Israel had to option to negotiate the release of their soldiers, as they always have done, but for reasons that belong on a separate thread, chose not to, THIS TIME.

The original excuse for Israel's campaign of state-sponsored terror against Lebanon was that Israel was "only" trying to force the Lebanese gov't. to "do something" about Hezbollah...to repeat, something the larger, better-armed and -trained IDF couldn't do in 18 years of occupation. And how does Israel expect the Lebanese gov't. to ANYTHING about Hezbollah when Israel's campaign of collective punishment has: crashed the national electrical grid, taken out the national communications network and water/sewer systems, destroyed the national air port and most sea ports, every major bridge, destroyed selected economic "targets" (pharmeceutical and milk processing plants, for example); and, last, if not least, saddled the Lebanese gov't. with a refugee crisis of 500,000 Shia's fleeing for their lives northward towards Beruit? I'd say the gov't of Lebanon has more immediate and important things to worry about and act on than doing Israel's dirty work vis a vis Hezbollah--things they wouldn't have to worry about or act on were it not for Israel's dispicible, disgusting and politically-motivated warmongering.

For the record: i don't "hate" Israel, or Jews; and i do recognize its rights to exist and legitimate self-defense; nor am i apologizing for anything Hezbollah has said or done. I'm just reciting the plain facts of the matter, with as much objectivity and intellectual honesty as i can, and drawing the most obvious and logical conclusions.

[Mandate My Ass]

81. for the record

you obviously *do* hate Israel and Jews just like those of us who oppose the carnage in Iraq hate America and love terrorists.

I will give the caveat that Israel has suffered at the hands of Hezbollah much more than America did at the hands of Iraq. But, I think it has been proven that bombing a militarily weaker country into oblivion only boosts recruitment for terrorist organizations and the conditions under which they thrive. See: Afghanistan, Iraq.

Thank you for a wonderful and thoughtful post and welcome. :hi:

[Kolesar]

93. I had to read that first sentence a few times

to make sure I got the meaning.

[Strawman]

82. excellent points

[readmoreoften]

106. Thanks for the post.

It cleared up some issues. I'm just trying to piece this all together. I try to respect that it is extremely complicated.

[Nevernose]

122. What you present is but one of several biased views

God knows that Israel has enough biased views, so I'm not going into much detail. However, you're spouting off Hezbollah talking points -- not internal comments, but those directed at European and American audiences.

The Hezbollah perspective is that Israel was defeated in the Golan. This may, MAY even be accurate. Or Israel may have been looking for peace and international support. Needless to say, even after Israel withdrew from Golan and gave hezbollah what they wanted, Hezbollah wanted more. They wanted israel destroyed; they kept attacking.

For the record, I'm with you all the way on deliberately attacking civilan infrastructure. Cilvilians get killed in war. That is tragic. I still haven't seen decent proof of medical or dairy plants, though I may be wrong). Going out of one's way to attack electricity, as was done in Gaza, is unforgivbable. However, ports of entry -- land, air, or sea -- are a legitimate target. Why would ANYONE go to war and allow their enemy to resupply at will? The 500,000 fleeing Shias couls just as easily be linked to Hezbollah as it could to Israel.

What I don't see is much motivation for Israel to go completely berserk and strike randomly into Lebanon. However, Hezbollah, who's stated goal is the death of Jews no matter where they are, seem to have a motivation.

Hezbollah leader Sheik Hassan Nasrallah apologized for an attack that killed two Israeli Arab children in northern Israel, saying the youngsters were "martyrs for Palestine." No mention of Israeli Jews...

[JerseygirlCT]

51. I support Israel AND I get that

I also think a disproportionate response will end up harming Israel in the long-run. Just seems like a bad idea all around to me.

But I keep finding myself fending off people who seem to think there's something to be admired in Hezbollah and the like -- in fact, who will take any position so long as it places them in opposition to Israel. That's pretty stupid, in my opinion.

I agree with your analogy. And I think we need some constructive help from the entire world community in finding a way out of this before more civilians on both sides are killed.

The Arabs and Iran need to understand that Israel isn't going away. Lebanon needs help forming a strong enough government that they can throw Hezbollah out on their collective asses.

And Syria and Iran need to be pressured to quit supporting terrorists. We can't do that, most likely. But I imagine Russia and China might have some leverage with Iran. Whoever can be employed, ought to be.

[I_Make_Mistakes]

89. I think that no one here is defending Hezbollah, that is not the

same as supporting the Lebonese people. It would be like saying that because the RW in our current gov't is against x then kill me, a liberal Christian.

It is the broad brush that people here suffer from, what happens when the world, and I truly believe there is a slow burning movement decide, to take out the US because of our moronic gov't. I will be painted with the same brush as them, and so will you. Be careful what you sow, because so(w) will you reap.

And for a reminder, once again, all 3 Abrahamic faiths have "Thou shall not kill", in their top ten, so remember, you will have to answer.

[liberalpragmatist]

90. Well said

This is why I dislike ideologues; when a cause becomes so blinding to someone, they start easily rationalizing away any sins.

Hezbollah's actions deserve NO sympathy. NONE. And it's obvious that Hezbollah STARTED this; that doesn't justify, IMO, Israel's response, but Hezbollah really screwed the pooch on this one.

[LostinVA]

166. No one here "admires Hezbollah " -- except maybe trolls

They are evil, and what they do are evil. Just as I think the Israeli military response of slaughtering innocents is bordering on evil. Just as our military's actions in Iraq are occasionally evil.

Who the HELL on here has once said they admired Hezbollah , unless it is a troll -- who???

[MH1]

53. And - justification is one thing, doing what is right is another.

There is some set of actions that Israel has a "right" to take. Then there is the right action - imo, the action which will do the most to resolve the conflict and reduce future violence.

I do not believe that the two are the same in this case. And I do not believe that Israel is taking the right action when they are killing innocent civilians in these numbers, and sowing the seeds for many more generations of hatred.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

59. The U.K. has a "right to defend itself". Why didn't it bomb Dublin?

The Irish "terrorists" were hiding among civilians in Dublin, Limerick, Belfast and Londonderry. They bombed civilian establishments in parts of the UK, including London. They received aid in the form of money and arms from people living in the Republic of Ireland and the United States. They had members elected the Irish Parliament from their sister organiztion Sinn Fein that wanted to destroy a portion of the UK called Northern Ireland.

Yet, the British managed to survive without destroying Ireland.

BTW, to avoid flames, my grandmother was born and raised in County Mayo, which she fled because of poverty caused by the Brit overlords.

[blonndee]

74. And the police have a right to defend themselves here in the U.S.

So why do they use SWAT teams to defuse dangerous situations instead of taking out entire blocks of homes?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

84. Because it works.

Even the cops have enough sense to realize that killing people indiscriminately is likely to bring about worse violence.

A lesson that a number of nations have yet to realize.

The Israelis, like the Americans in Iraq, are doing a helluva good job of perpetuating the violence by killing those not involved in it.

[blonndee]

86. I know it. I just don't see why the same reasoning

doesn't apply when it comes to this situation. I'm not arguing with you BTW, just adding on to your comparison. I've been thinking about the SWAT situation from a moral POV, but it hadn't occured to me that the ensuing violence would likely bring about similar effects as it's doing in the Israeli conflict.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

132. I understood that.

I've read your other posts condemning the mindless violence that always has a "justification" by the perpetrators.

Both sides, or however many "sides" there are, are all fighting for "peace", "justice", "God", "security", "self-defense", and all the usual blather that reduces human beings to targets and corpses.

[LostinVA]

167. Perfect analogy

The IRA and Ireland are excellent mirrors of the situation in the ME.

For all of the British government's oft butchery against the Irish, this is indeed one thing that haven't done. Kudos to them.

[sandnsea]

61. Say you killed my family, friends, cat and burn my house down

And I work within the law and try to get something done to make you stop. But years go buy and you don't stop and continue on your rampage.

How much of that am I supposed to take until I come after you and yours?

This is not about two soldiers, this is about rocket attacks and border violations since at least 2003.

[Kolesar]

94. What would Buford Pusser do?

[kitty1]

205. The violations go both ways equally. The Palestinians ......

and Lebanese have suffered a lot of continuous brutality and unfair treatment by the Israelis over the years as well. Don't tell me the Israelis haven't violated the Lebanese border either. They have.

[sandnsea]

227. But why?

To root out those who are lobbing rockets into Israel, that's why. This is not like the West Bank or Gaza. There is no disputed territory between Lebanon and Israel. This is strictly attacks by Hizbollah because they seek to destroy Israel, no matter what happens with the Palestinians.

[kitty1]

231. Not giving Hez a free pass here but Israel's human rights....

record in respect to the treatment of Palestinian and Lebanese prisioners is well know. I'm not insinuating that the Hezbollah and kind aren't major sh''t disturbers by any means. They are an evil lot. I'm just saying that Israel's human rights record is notorious for the brutal torture methods used to extract information from prisoners. Many of them innocent.
The Israeli Supreme Court has also found it lawful to hold otherwise unlawfully-detained prisoners as bargaining chips for exchange for Israeli prisoners abroad.
I'm just a little tired of people holding Israel up as this beacon of pure and shining light with no semblance of wrongdoing in anything they carry out. We need to see some balance here.

[sandnsea]

232. rotflmao, in what alternate reality??

Israel held up as a beacon or pureness and light? OMG, Where???

Not giving Hez a free pass... but then off you go to bash Israel and say nothing about Hizbullah. Which is exactly my point. That's all I see on DU. Israel can never ever possibly be right about anything. It's bizarre.

[kitty1]

240. alternate reality; CRHRP-2000: Occupied Territories, U.S State Dept.

If you read my post clearly, you would see that I distinctly related to Hezbollah as an evil lot. I also stated before that violations are evident on both sides. I definitely was not taking one side over the other or just Israel bashing. This is exactly why DU'ers are reluctant to state their perceptions, because they are considered to be biased which is untrue.

[sandnsea]

241. That's what most of DU does

Says Hezbollah is evil - and then goes on to outline a litany of complaints against Israel, ending with they're just looking for 'objectivity'.

It seems to me that people think they can't advocate for Palestine while advocating for Israel's right to exist peacefully. It's either buy into the whole Palestine case; or be pro-Israel AIPAC warmongering whatever-the-fuck. And then tell me I'm not objective. :crazy:

[stepnw1f]

261. Take Your Hatred Somewhere Else

Obviously you like seeing Lebanese die, and don't give a damn about the repercussions Israelis may endure because of the Israeli governemnt. Disgustingly transparent.

[breakingranks]

63. Link TV's Mosaic Specials

If anyone gets satellite, Link TV has been doing special segments of Mosaic (aggregate of news shows from all over the Middle East) with viewer call-ins. They're also rerunning a good documentary called "Women of Hezbollah".

I believe Mosaic runs at 7 on the East coast.

DIRECTV channel 375
DISH channel 9410

You can find more info here:
http://www.linktv.org/programming/programDescription.php4?code=mosaic_insight

This is Link's main web site:
http://linktv.org/

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

67. For a mulitfaceted view of what's going on, a great program.

I watch it frequently.

[breakingranks]

83. It's been running in the morning, too.

I've been catching Mosaic in the morning, around 10:30, and I think there's a super-early version, too. This has been great because the evening airings always conflicted with something for me.

[breakingranks]

221. Mosaic Hezbollah special tonight

This is additional info related to my previous post on Link TV's Mosaic specials - just a direct paste from my email:

MOSAIC SPECIAL REPORT: Insight into the Middle East
In this Live Call-in program, Link TV's team of journalists and Middle East experts answer your questions and e-mails about what's really happening in the current crisis. Drawing on reports from 28 Middle Eastern news broadcasts, Link TV provides context, analysis and a behind the scenes look at the story you never see on American TV.

Friday, July 21

7pm. PT, 10 p.m. ET: Mosaic Special Report: Insight into the Middle East Call in Show
More info: http://www.linktv.org/programming/programDescription.php4?code=mosaic_insight

7:30/10:30 : Mosaic: News from the Middle East

8:00/11:00 – 9/Midnight Mosaic Call In Show, part 2

DIRECTV Ch 375
DISH Ch 9410
http://linktv.org/

[I_Make_Mistakes]

66. Will you got caught up in the cross post

I was responding to:

Shouldn't the Lebanese have.............
Edited on Fri Jul-21-06 12:39 AM by Minnesota Libra
.....thought about that before they allowed Hezbilloh to fire rockets from their soil into Israel??? You sleep with the enemy you get treated like the enemy.

[Totallybushed]

87. Let's say you hit me,

and knock me down.

Let's say I knock you down.

Let's say you don't learn anything from this and try it again later.

Let's say, to drive the point home that it is not wise to assault me unprovoked, I hammer you a time or two.

Let's say, you are a real slow learner. (58 years)

let's say, next time I put you in the hospital.

Let's say the town deputy says that they can't do anything about your vicious and unprovoked assaults, but that I should exercise restraint.

Let's say that I've tried to talk with you, given you my front yard, and let you sleep with my wife.

Let's say you just want to kill me and take it all.

At what point do I need to stop fucking around with you?

[Ignoramus]

105. A country isn't a person

So the analogy doesn't work at all.

Countries don't do anything to anyone, except by way of earthquakes.

It's more like. Say I punch you, so you rob a bank in san francisco, so I commit mail fraud in Tenessee. At what point do you I stop taking your mistreatment and bomb a bridge?

[tomp]

128. also, the analogy starts with one person...

...assumed to be totally at fault. it's just not that simple. the other side always uses the same logic to defend their actions assuming you to be at fault.

[Totallybushed]

160. Actually, it is pretty

much that simple.

If the Palestinians laid down their arms today, there would be peace by evening.

If the Israelis laid down their arms today, tomorrow there wouldn't be an Israel.

Sorry, call me simple-minded if it makes you feel better, but that is the reality-based conclusion, and the facts of the Mid-East crises

[tomp]

181. it's you thinking it's that simple that is the problem

within the memory of the living, there was no "israel". a "nation" was imported and imposed upon a people. that nation was brutally created and brutally defended. when justice is done and THEN arms are laid down everyone will be safe.

no justice, no peace. it's that simple.

[Totallybushed]

188. The generation

of that time will soon be completely passed away. Current Israelis are not going to go away to suit the Palestinians idea of "justice"

Also, you are completely ignoring the fact that historically, there has never been a "Palestinian" people. Before the Jews started moving into historic Israel, around the turn of the last century, only a few lonely shepherds lived on these lands. They were ruled by one of the greatest tyrannies in history, the Ottoman Empire.

As the Jews began to build a "land of milk & honey" out of the desert, Arabs came to the land to take advantage of the economy that was growing. And why shouldn't they?

The Jews did not kick the Arabs out in 1948. They wanted them to stay. The Arabs left becasue their Arab "brothers" tole them to get out of the way while Israel was being attacked and destroyed. Understandably, adn rightfully, the Israelis refused to let them back in.

Skipping over several decades of anti-Semitic violence, once again the Arabs planned an attack on Israel. In the ensuing war, Israel captured land from Jordan and Egypt. Egypt has got their land back by signing a peace treaty with Israel. Jordan renounced its claim.

Yasser Arafat invented the "Palestinian people" in order to lay a "historical" claim to the entire land of Israel.

OK, those are the facts. But, for the sake of argument, let us assume that you are actually correct. We still have the facts on the ground that Israel exists, that it's people are unwilling to cease existing to satisfy someone's sense of justice for ancient wrongs. That Israel is far stronger than the Palestinian people.

No justice, no peace??? OK, but there can be no peace for either side while war is being conducted. So the Palestinians, and Hezbollah, for that matter, must realize that if they are going to attack, they will be attacked in return, and far more severely. As long as they are willing to pay the price, they can continue to do so. But, two things.

One, Israel will try to make the price higher than they are willing to pay.

Two, they cannot fight their own battles, but are constantly calling on the "international community" to save them from the consequences of their own actions. I'm not talking about the civilians. I'm talking about the militant, terrorist groups.

No justice, no peace. For anybody.

[tomp]

246. those are not THE facts, those are YOUR facts.

ask the other players in the region and you'll get a different view of history, a different set of "facts".

and i do not want or expect the "israeli people" to "go away". i believe religious states are inherently unjust and problematic: christian, muslim, jewish, whatever. i believe there is enough room for all if the intention is justice/peace. i believe there are some on both sides who want war and some who want peace, some who are flexible and some who are intransigent. i believe there is a difference between the intention for justice/peace and the intention for "defensible borders".

you are absolutely correct. "no justice, no peace" applies to all. but again, your asumption seems to be that it if everyone ELSE in the region acted peacefully and justly there would be no problem. not a good starting point.

[Totallybushed]

255. There are only facts.

ther are no 'your' facts and 'my'facts'. check the histories. the Arab states did try to destroy Israel in 1948, as soon as it was created. They did tell the Arab residents to leave. Every thing I stated actually did happen, and saying it didn't is simply a lie or deliberate ignorance.

OK. Let's agree that religious states are inherently unjust. And just as soon as I see a Catholic church, a Jewish synagogue, a Buddhist temple, and a Baptist church in Mecca, I will agree that the Islamist side has a leg to stand on in making that argument.

[ErisFiveFingers]

283. Wow. Is this straight from the IDF?

Typical modern propaganda? These are supposed 'Facts'?

Myth 1:
"Also, you are completely ignoring the fact that historically, there has never been a "Palestinian" people."
Philistines. They're kind of mentioned in the bible.

Myth 2:
"only a few lonely shepherds lived on these lands."
I'm pretty sure the city-state of Jerusalem was pretty much a hub for more than a few lonely shepherds for, oh, the last 3000 years. Jaffa was a major gateway port in it's own right for the last 2800 years. It's a romantic notion (I note, with amusement, you used the "milk and honey" slogan) that Israel was built out of a barren, nearly unpopulated desert, but not a factually supported one.

Myth 3:
"Arabs came to the land"
See above, many were already there. Have you not heard about the Great Revolt?

Myth 4:
"The Arabs left becasue their Arab "brothers" tole them to get out of the way"
Extensive research has been done on this one, because of the debates surrounding the refugees. No such original statement can be found, other than anecdotal. What *is* clear is that there was a mass exodus, and there's a lot of finger pointing as to reasons why people would, oh, want to leave a war zone. In the current situation, at least, it's quite obvious that Israelis are instructing people to flee, as some have argued they did in prior wars.

Myth 5:
"Understandably, adn rightfully, the Israelis refused to let them back in."
Sorry, this willfully violates the letter and the spirirt of the Geneva conventions. So it is most definately not understandable, nor is it right.

Myth 6:
"Yasser Arafat invented the "Palestinian people"... "
No, credit for "Palestina" being named after the Philistines belongs to emperor Hadrian, circa 135 AD, long before Arafat's time.

Don't beat yourself up for having learned this standard body of mythos, it's quite popular in the propaganda of today. As far as I can read into it, it's sort of an attempt to justify some of the more distressing parts of Israeli history by saying "You really didn't want it, so we took it, and you can't have it back now because it's ours."

As far as the rest of your argument, I think it's safe to say that "No justice" for modern wrongs that *continue* to be committed by Israel, Hezbollah, Hamas, etc. means no modern peace for any of them.

One way of settling those modern injustices would be simple: Naturalize all people who live in the disputed areas as Israeli citizens, and allow all people to return to what they view as their home properties. Enforce this with a massive UN army, which would also have to task of disarming the Israelis, Hezbollah, HAMAS, etc. Once everyone is reasonably disarmed, and no longer refugees, let them vote, and create a true democracy or group of allied states in the middle east that would be *so* formidable that nobody would ever dare attack them again. Then, the peoples can begin the long process of reconciliation, with legal claims handled by courts instead of guns. Of course, this plan would never be acceptable to the Israelis, because it might make Jews a minority in the state, and for all their bluster about democracy, Israel seems only commited to a "Jewish democracy". Maybe that will change one day.

[Ignoramus]

203. A population isn't a government

So, yeah if both populations laid down their arms there would be peace. But the conflict is between a government and a population, not just 2 populations. The Israeli government is bound directly by it's laws. A population, by definition is not bound directly by laws.

The important thing is what will happen, not what should happen. You can't say "hey population, lay down your arms". You can say "Hey Israeli government, be bound by a law that prevents you from attacking."

It's like the birth-control issue. Kids will have sex. You can't say "I command you kids not to have sex". The important thing is to have a policy that addresses what will happen, not what you would like to happen.

[Totallybushed]

215. That was the most convoluted &

nonsensical argument that I have ever seen or heard.

Actually two populations are at war. One of them is represented by the government of Israel. One of them by a number of nation-states and extra-governmental organizations. Hezbollah, for example, represents its members, who are also living in Lebanon, and bound by its laws. Theoretically.

Any population is bound by the laws of the country that it lives in.

But if Israel lays down its arms, what is to prevent the "population" from continuing the fight and killing all Israelis, as they have often sworn to do??

And what law is it that says Israel can't attack those who are attacking it? And why should they obey such a law, anyway? Who's going to make them?

Here's what will happen, not what should happen. Israel will pound on Hezbollah for as long as they are able. World opinion will force them back after a time, Hezbollah un-destroyed. Hezbollah will again resume attacks on Israel. Israel will defend itself again. This is called 'the cycle of violence'. There is one way to end it.

[Ignoramus]

222. Two populations aren't at war

2 organizations are at war. A population doesn't engage in war, unless every single member of the population is shooting bombing etc.

The Isreali government could bind itself to it's own law saying it will not attack. Hezbollah could bind itself to it's own policy saying it will not attack. The population of lebanon and the population of israel (every single person in the two countries) don't all meet together to agree on things.

The cycle of violence will not be ended by violence. Every killed person results in 100 new enemies. Israel will not be able to kill every enemy, it can only increase the number of enemies. The only way to end the cycle is to stop retaliating. There is no easy path. Every course of action will result in death. It's just a quesition of how much more death do you want. Keep retaliating to have more death, or stop retaliating to have less death.

[Totallybushed]

228. OK. That sounds like a great idea.

I'll just hold my breath here waiting for the "religion of peace" adherents to stop retaliating.

[Totallybushed]

159. "A country isn't a person"

That was sort of my point.

[Biernuts]

245. When you have buried him. Shit look at the US in WWII.

Germany never attacked the US, only declaring war after their moron allies did. Yet we would accept only their unconditional surrender, not a negotiated peace. Did that make FDR & Truman war criminals? What about Dresden, Hiroshima & Nagasaki? What about the St Louis - now are they war criminals?

Why did Clinton have to bomb Kosovo, how did that threaten the US? Did that make him a war criminal? (Actually, yes - he won't be visiting Serbia since he has a 20 year sentence awaiting him).

In my book, none of the above are war criminals. And a standard applied to my team must be applied equally to the opposition.

[Lindacooks]

91. Perfect. Thank you.

[BeHereNow]

95. Yes Will, we can clarify in one word- IRAN

IRAN
IRAN
IRAN

I repeat the one word because it is more than apparent
that very few understand the big picture as far as where
this particular FUBAR scenario is headed.
Smoke and mirrors.
Smoke and mirrors.

The neocons have learnt well the effectiveness
of presenting knee jerk topics as they move forward with their
global plan for homicide and hegemony.

Over and out-
BHN

[LincolnMcGrath]

96. K & R

[Recursion]

97. In the end, more people die...

...if you follow LBJ's tit-for-tat escalation policy from Vietnam. Strike with overwhelming force, or do not strike at all.

If you half-ass war, more people end up dying.

[mmonk]

104. That's my problem with the situation as well.

It might be different if the kill ratio of Hezbollah was higher in reference to civilians.

I understand the attacks by Hezbollah are awful and indescriminate. But as far as damage to a country, Lebanon is really being devastated and lives of ordinary peaceful people destroyed forever, many who may have hated Hezbollah themselves.

In the long run, I'm not sure what good this will do. If Hezbollah is wiped from the earth, then great. But I fear the backlash around the world.

[insane_cratic_gal]

107. We are too focused on who is right and who is wrong

the only losers are the human race.

It's disgusting what well will do to one another over a scrap of land or idea, an exchange of words. We are to ego centric. we can't put aside our own pride long enough to understand and compromise with one another.

I've watched the war of words wage back and forth in DU. I've even been privy to a few exchanges myself, but what I've come to accept is humanity is both beautiful and heinous at the same time.
We waste so much time arguing about who is right and who is wrong, we forget that one invested interest that binds is OUR own fates as civilization.
If we are to survive in this Universe because as far as we know, we are unique (or at least a freak of nature). We are alone, we must be able to depend on one another. If we can not do that here in this forum, with like minded, intelligent people, I don't know how we will ever survive global warming.



I only hope out of all of this ugliness something new and hopeful is born, otherwise it was all for naught, and the bombs will just keep exploding and the earth will keep deteriorating.

Sorry to use your thread as sounding board Will, but my level of frustration is nearing its peak.

[Mr_Spock]

109. I wish being logical about this topic would lead to a good discussion...

It is not permitted to be logical WRT this topic. I tend to agree with your thinking on this topic, but I find it pointless to argue with people who will roll their eyes back in their head and scream at you 'till their voice cracks.

[Mass]

110. Excellent - nice to see a voice of reason.\nt

[pitohui]

112. straightforward in a way, disingenuous in another way

the reality is that there are what 2 billion muslims and how many jews?

israel cannot be all fair and proportionate and "an eye for an eye," they MUST be disproportionate or they will be killed to the last man, woman, child, and dog long before the last muslim extremist bomber has strapped on his explosives

when you are greatly out-numbered you have no choice but to take an aggressive stand

the golden retriever can be a sweety-pie, the chihuahua has to come out snapping

your analogy, will, is just not fair to israel, a people who are badly outnumbered and surrounded by those who have vowed, openly, to exterminate them

rumsfeld is a joke as general but so are most DUers

i understand wes clark supports israel in this, frankly, that's good enough for me

but as i've asked in the other threads, what do you suggest that would be more effective, being fair-minded and proportionate just doesn't work w. this enemy

and i hope THAT'S straightforward enough

[Mr_Spock]

117. Do you think they will be around in 100 years?

It's easy to justify an overreaction when you have more power than the millions of people around you. It's only a matter of time before those millions of people have the same or more power. Then what?

This is a temporary tactic that is satisfying now, but may ultimately lead to the demise of Israel.

We can make excuses for the hundreds of murdered innocent people in Lebanon, but it's only putting off the inevitable.

[pitohui]

119. let's put it this way

i would rather be dead in 100 years than dead yesterday, would you agree?

we might none of us be around in 100 years, see under global climate change

nonetheless, israel has a duty to its citizens to try to put a stop to the terror today

to be honest i doubt there will be any decent people around in 100 years, even if the world does survive, simply because the good, decent, and prudent people who are capable of reason and planning use birth control -- and the ignorant and the religiously insane do not, so they outbreed us -- since there is no will to stop the religiously insane and the ignorant from breeding, there is indeed no hope for any future

nonetheless, it is better to be dead in 100 years than to be dead on the spot

democracies never last long, most of history has been hell on earth for most of people, but nonetheless, for the short time while we are here, we should stand on the side of decency and not on the side of terror

and that's probably enough deep thought out of me for one day! besides there is always the hope that i am wrong...if nothing else, the 100 years gives people more time to figure things out

[WilliamPitt]

129. "what do you suggest that would be more effective"

Send the wet boys out to decapitate Hezbollah, and then throw all our weight behind strengthening Lebanon's burgeoning democracy.

[pitohui]

138. but they've been trying that haven't they?

it's clear that decapitating hezbollah has not been as easy it looks

in an ideal world that's the way to go but israel has been trying so long w. the strategic assassinations -- and still it comes to this

so i don't know

but at least you're thinking, this is prob. the first post i've read that has tried to offer a sensible practical idea

[WilliamPitt]

146. Too many of those "strategic assassinations"

have been done with missiles from attack helicopters or jets. That is ham-fisted, and almost always involves collateral death.

Imagine being a Hezbollah soldier, and waking up one day to the news that fifty wraths in black camo and night vision goggles poured themselves through some keyholes and took the scalps of everyone you work for. Would that make you think twice about suiting up for another day of fighting? It'd make me think twice.

And this keeps an apartment building from getting flattened.

I think Israel has this kind of capability. I think the time has come to put it to use. Billions of dollars in defense spending shouldn't just pay for the broadsword. It should pay for the scalpel, too. If that capability isn't a line-item in the budget, a whole slew of people deserve to get fired.

[theboss]

170. Wow. Maybe you should call up Sneh and suggest this

The man only once WAS an Israeli commando. It probably never crossed his mind.

[Snivi Yllom]

218. you have a Hollywood vision of what is realistic and what is not

If the IDF or the Mossad could achieve what you described, they would have done so long ago in Lebanon, the West bank, the Gaza Strip, Syria, and Iran.

[theboss]

169. This is always the solution suggested by those who know nothing

Israel has shown no fear of assassinating who it wants when it wants. So I'm guessing that they have tried this tactic in the 20-some years that they have been fighting Hezbollah. I'm guessing it's not as easy as you suggest.

[greatauntoftriplets]

234. What does Lebanon have to do with 2 million Muslims worldwide???

Are you unaware of the fact that between 25 and 30 percent of Lebanese are Christians?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_Christian_Nationalism:_The_Rise_and_Fall_of_an_Ethnic_Resistance

[EFerrari]

116. I must be losing it because my first thought was

"No, not the cat!"

[Clarkie1]

120. No, Will, it's not straighforward stuff. You are wrong to say it is.

How would you propose that Israel defend itself without incurring civilian casualties? Tell me how you would target better, and what technology you would use that Israel is not using? How would you defend yourself from a terrorist organization operating out of civilian neighborhoods?

Secondly, do you seriously believe Israel wants to kill civilians? Ever civilian causualty hurts their image in the intenational community, and they are painfully aware of this.

Your post, while giving lip-service to the majority sentiment expressed here on DU, is simplistically naive. You may win some brownie points around here for posting it, but you've demonstrated you really understand very little of the gravity of the current situation and it's causes.

[hlthe2b]

124. You know... not everyone that disagrees with you is

uninformed, "simplistically naive," or "failing to grasp the gravity of the current situation and its causes." To assume otherwise is very patronizing imo and not helpful.... I think you can make your points without resorting to that...:shrug:

[jonnyblitz]

131. you do your cause no good, which i am glad of

because what you support is not a good thing.

[Clarkie1]

139. I support peace and truth, not naive uninformed simplistic dribble. nt

[JI7]

150. what Israel is doing does nothing to come closer to peace

they have been "defending" themselves the same way for years and terrorists are still attacking and killing them. When one's method of defending themselves is so ineffective and results in more innocents getting killed while the enemy being targeted is not weaker and maybe even stronger, it means they need to rethink their defense strategy.

in this case it will require and outsider to bring and push the two sides to work together. an international force along the border would be a good idea in this case. and a joint effort by the international community to break up terrorist organizations.

[stepnw1f]

236. War=Peace... pretty twisted

[Old and In the Way]

125. Well said, as usual, Mr. Pitt.

Yeah, this war will take care of all of Israel's problems. There will never be any blowback. The Lebonese will understand and be even more sympathetic of Israel's security concerns.

[LSK]

127. K & R

It amazes me how people dont get it. I guess they are letting emotions cloud their thinking. :shrug:

[Douglas Carpenter]

130. well said Sir

[Autonomy]

134. We shouldn't have a dog in this fight

yet we do, in the form of billions of dollars of military welfare per year and the occasional congressional and presidential ass-kissing like the one the other day. True that "Israel has a right to defend itself," but that in no way obligates the US to provide the means of that support. We Americans are responsible for the deaths of those innocent children.

[Celica Toyota]

135. kick

[Celica Toyota]

136. kick

[Duppers]

141. THANK YOU, SIR. nt

indeed

[ninkasi]

142. Exactly, Will

I share your views on the whole tragedy. It's the disproportionate response that is wrong, not the fact that a response was called for. Shattering innocent Lebanese lives does not protect Israel. I just wish that the world leaders, all of them, would grow up.

[Ganja Ninja]

157. Exactly Will.

You have the right to defend your home and your person with deadly force if necessary. You don't have the right to knock down the surrounding neighborhood and kill everybody in the vicinity.

[theboss]

165. That is absurd

Israel is the only country in the world who while being completed surrounded by enemies is told to limit its response. As long as Hezbollah exists, Israel is at risk. Telling Israel that they can only kill, say, twice as many members of Hezbollah as Hezbollah kills members of the IDF is pointless and unjust.

Once we cross the Rubicon into open conflict, all bets are off.

The issue is and always has been what is done once the fighting stops. The fighting will stop and will stop for a while. And then something goes wrong, and we are back here again.

[LostinVA]

168. Hezbollah is not Lebanon

No one on here is saying they shouldn't attack Hezbollah. THAT'S the issue.

[theboss]

171. Unforunately, bombs don't work that way

And actually Hezbollah is part of the Lebanese government. And they use the assets of Lebanon.

[rman]

174. Hezbollah is a small part of the Lebanese government

Most Lebanese people do not support Hezbollah's politics, a probably fewer still support Hezbollah's terrorist acts.
Yet Israel thinks all Lebanese people and all of Lebanon's infrastructure are valid targets because they/it *might* be helping Hezbollah.

[Armstead]

173. Amen -- You got it in a nutshell

[WinkyDink]

179. Now, on paper this sounds logical. HOWEVER~~~The aggressor

doesn't get to call the rules of retaliation. In reality it's more like, "You should have thought of this before striking us, Bunky."

There was a time when Jews were not only being murdered en masse, but also being blamed for being passive about it. I suspect that pendulum hasn't yet found its historical time for equilibrium.

[Bridget Burke]

226. So the Lebanese must pay for what some Germans did.

And some Poles & some French. And the Allies who knew something bad was going in on Germany.

The pendulum keeps swinging. Unjust deaths occurring now will lead to future death.

[WinkyDink]

235. I'M not saying it; I think it is being played out.

[whosinpower]

180. I still think if we look at this strategically

We will find that Israel - via its disproportinate response is trying to goad Syria and/or Iran to jump into the fray - and they are using the Lebanese civilians as bait.

It is a long term strategy meant to remake the middle east with Israel as top honcho. These are neocons we are dealin with and you only have to look up PNAC to understand their agenda.

If Syria and Iran sneeze at this point - Israel will hollar, and the US will jump into the mess. That is the goal. Iran's nuclear installation will be bombed - guarenteed.

But I often wonder if Iran's proposed oil Bourse which is scheduled to go active in September(?) has anything to do with the obvious ramping up of emnity. Iran's oil would be traded in Euro's instead of US greenbacks - and this is an obvious depressing factor to the value of the US dollar - which is not at all helpful for the US or Israel.
I wonder if that is at the root of it all - and all this talk of terrorism, nuclear fears, etc is just a whitewash to what is really driving this war.
I recall Saddam tried the same thing.....and was invaded pretty much immediately.

[Meshuga]

184. This is a fair question but you have to understand...

This is a very difficult situation. You have armed Hezbollah with thousands of rockets pointing at you. A country with nuclear aspirations and vowing to wipe you off the map is equipping Hezbollah with weapons and making them stronger right there on your northern border.

Israel’s goal is not to “kill 1 of yours because you killed 1 of mine”, much less “kill 100 of your people because you killed 1 of mine”. If that was the case most Israeli’s would not be defending these actions. The objective is to end the threat of Hezbollah in the northern border by destroying their arsenal. The difficult part is the fact that Hezbollah infiltrates and keep their arsenal among civilians. This is a really complex issue and very difficult to be 100% in favor or 100% against.

[helderheid]

185. THANK YOU for your voice of reason. You've articulated what I

apparently could not.

[The Stranger]

186. WilliamPitt -- for once, we agree.

[Dover]

187. I'm not convinced that Israel is responding to Hezbollah so much

as preparing for further aggression in Syria and Iran (in cooperation with the U.S./British agenda). While Hezbollah may be a minor target, obviously Israel doesn't expect to erradicate them by destroying Lebanon's infrastructure. It's just a prelude.....much as they took out much of Iraq's ability to respond prior to the invasion.

[theboss]

189. How would taking out Lebanon's infrastructure hurt Syria?

The military logic behind what Israel is doing is pretty clear. They are trying to trap all of Hezbollah in Southern Lebanon. Whether that is possible is one thing. Whether it would be effective is another.

And whether any of this is a good idea is the subject for a great debate.

Frankly, from a US perspective, I fail to see how any military action by Israel while we have 135,000 combat troops in the region is helpful. The moment the insurgency in Iraq wanes, all someone has to do is turn on the news from Lebanon.

[Dover]

196. They are neutralizing Lebanon's ability to assist Syria.

Iran is the ultimate target. They will surround it and put on the squeeze.

Hezbollah is not the main target, but these attacks are part of the payoff to Israel for their participation. It's a cooperative venture with mutual benefits.

I recommend you look at the bigger economic and geostrategic picture...look at Iran's and Syria's goals for pipelines, bourses, alliances and economic partners, and potential power in that region. It's in direct competition with U.S. interests.

You won't have to wait much longer to discover that Syria is next.

Edited to add this link (a little background):
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1677376&mesg_id=1677376

[xultar]

191. AMEN. SOME LOGIC AND CLEAR EXAMPLES TO COMPARE!

EXCELLENT.
I AGREE!!!

[mhatrw]

192. Right or Wrong, Israel is Still My Client State.

[sweetheart]

195. US behaviour in iraq is worse

The death tolls are far higher, and lebannon has been a nice moral pinnacle to look
down on from our murky bottom.

[Nothing Without Hope]

197. Completely agree. Plus, it's not even going to increase Israel's security

Fury and desperation were what fueled Hezbollah's success in the first place. What new rounds of terror will these murderous attacks spawn? It's so obvious this the all-out attack of Lebanese civilians and infrastructure will NOT help the security of Israel, I have to wonder if it is a deliberate incitement for Syria and Iran to attack. Elements in the Likud and in the US government really, really want war with Iran and have for years.

The Senate resolution giving Israel free rein to do whatever it wants in the MidEast calls on Bush for immediate sanctions on Iran and Syria (guess they think that's just another unitary exec power) and cleary opens to the door to further steps. The GOP leadership, the Bush White House, and the radical elements currently in power in the Israeli government WANT escalation, I believe. I can't see any other explanation but insanity or utter stupidity, and these people are not stupid, only willfully blind.

Juan Cole has much more on the disproportional response by Israel and its effects in this post at his blog (which I recommend checking every day for his updates on the situation):
http://www.juancole.com/2006/07/israel-kills-57-in-lebanon-arbour.html

Much more, with many links, in this compilation post:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2398020&mesg_id=2401630

[garybeck]

199. your argument is just wrong.

in your scenario, it's just an eye for an eye until the whole world is blind.

I think Israel is taking such harsh action to show the Lebanon that if they thow missles over the boarder, they will be severe consequences, in order to stop them from doing it.

Do you think if Canada dropped a missle on us, we would carefully measure how many missles were sent and make sure we don't send any more back to them? PULEEZE.

Lebanon threw the first missle and Israel is not only defending themselves, but they are showing Lebanon there are severe consequences.


Personally I think they all should stop killing eachother completely and form an international city in Jerusalem. I hate all violence.

But your argument is flawed. You can't just simply fight back with equal strength, or it will go on forever. In fact, it would end up being worse than what we're seeing. You have to put an end to it.

[wtmusic]

248. Your argument is why we have no chance of winning in Iraq

Saddam violated UN sanctions, so we invaded the country--to "put an end to it", right? (you sound like one of those abusive parents who beats the crap out of their kids "to show them who's boss"). :eyes:

Doesn't work that way. Who's going to be the arbiter of what "severe consequences" are? Do you think the Lebanese are going to give up after their families have been destroyed by Israeli missiles, saying, "Whoa, they really showed us!"

Responding with 10x the force will not "put an end" to anything. Conversely, it will insure that the atrocity is remembered--and the violence continues--for generations.

[treestar]

200. Spot on, Will. The logical fallacy is that any criticism of the way

Israel defends itself is equal to the assertion that "Israel has no right to defend itself." A straw man.

[Totallybushed]

217. What actions would you support?

Something that will allow Israel to exist in peace as a Jewish state with no "right of return".

[Rhiannon12866]

201. K&R. Thank you, Will. These are exactly my feelings, as well.

I can't see how anyone here who doesn't have a dog in this fight can believe otherwise. For those with family and friends who may be in the line of fire, the issue is much more complicated, and I understand their fears and their viewpoint. However, for the rest of us, the reality should be obvious. Thank you for expressing it so clearly. I only wish that the MSM shared your clarity of thought.

Rhiannon

[Rhiannon12866]

202. K&R. Thank you, Will. These are exactly my feelings, as well.

I can't see how anyone here who doesn't have a dog in this fight can believe otherwise. For those with family and friends who may be in the line of fire, the issue is much more complicated, and I understand their fears and their viewpoint. However, for the rest of us, the reality should be obvious. Thank you for expressing it so clearly. I only wish that the MSM shared your clarity of thought.

Rhiannon

[sofa king]

204. Straightforward fucking evil! Shame on all of you!

I'm sorry to be the Jiminy Cricket here, but shame on all of you for falling into this logical and moral pit.

From my point of view it's really simple: The people who planned this war launched it with the intention of getting Lebanese civilians killed, to use as a physical and political defense against Israeli retaliation.

Judging by this thread, the plan is working perfectly. You are part of the plan. You are doing exactly what the people who planned this war hoped you would do, which is to direct your outrage against the easy target rather than the one you can't so easily see.

I think there is a very, very important moral distinction to make here:

One side is inadvertantly killing civilians.

The other side planned to have those civilians killed.

Furthermore, the other side (whatever entity that may be) plans to use us and our outrage over those civilian deaths to blunt Israel's retaliation against them. They're hiding behind the very people they condemned.

This is a rare and yet very clear case of one evil being much, much larger than the other, because one is obviously the cause of the other. The Israeli atrocities in this war, how ever bad they will be, will always be a subset of the far greater evil perpetrated by Israel's enemies, which is is involving innocent Lebanese people in the first place.

Moral equivalency cannot be established in this case. To treat whatever fate befalls the Lebanese at the hands of the Israelis as somehow morally equivalent to the callous and despicable decision to involve the Lebanese in the first place creates a false comparison in favor of the people who conceived the plan in the first place.

This is an evil inside of a much larger and more insidious evil, and evil which depends upon your outrage for its success. If you fail to make that moral distinction, then I fear you will find yourself inadvertantly supporting the worst side, and ensuring it will happen again.

Say I have a bone to pick with you in a crowded bar. So I push some innocent schmuck into you and have you kick his ass first. Maybe I'll get lucky and the schmuck will hurt you a little bit, and in the meantime, I'm standing on the sidelines, juicing up the crowd against you, saying you started it, getting ready for the real rumble. We don't know how that turns out yet, but the schmuck is going to the hospital, that's for sure.

Now, whose fault is it for that schmuck going to the hospital? It's your fault for kicking the schmuck's ass, no matter what, and that's a bad thing.

But the real crime is in starting the fight in the first place, and that was me. That's what really hurt the schmuck. And if I get away with it, you bet your ass I'll do it again, and again and again.

While you're busy fighting, I'm standing on the sidelines, trying to get the whole crowd to kick your ass, and there's a good chance I'll walk away scot free while you take the beating.

A lot of you readers are the crowd. Suckers, getting ready for the pile on.

I don't have any answers for this mess, but I'll be damned if I'm going to help have it happen again by blaming the Israelis for it. That legitimizes the tactic. Whatever solution there is to this situation starts and ends with finding the people who planned this incident and making sure they can't ever do it again. That is the first and most important moral imperative in this matter, and if you dare to speak of Israeli atrocities without acknowledging the staged circumstances under which they are happening, you are actively working to help perpetrate the greater crime.

Don't do that, dammit! It's bad!

There, flame away.

[wyldwolf]

208. say you punch me in a bar..

..and just as I'm about to punch you back, a few people say, "wyldwolf, chill. I'll talk to the guy that hit you."

The next night, you punch me again, then kick me... and just as I'm about to punch you back, a few people say, "wyldwolf, chill. I'll talk to the guy that hit you."

The next night, you punch me again, then kick me, then give stomp on my foot... and just as I'm about to punch you back, a few people say, "wyldwolf, chill. I'll talk to the guy that hit you."

To which I say, "screw it. I'm going to kill him. That may be a disproportionate response. but damn if he's going to punch me again!"

More simple than the point you made, but I think the point is made.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

206. Here's what the "Israel is always right" crowd misses:

I'm against the current Israeli attacks on Lebanon not because I value Arabs more than Jews or because I think Hezbollah are such wonderful human beings.

But I'm getting real tired of the "Israel always does the right thing" viewpoint, which is EXACTLY comparable to the "America right or wrong" viewpoint of the Bushbots.

Yes, Israel has the right to defend itself, but it's going about it in completely the wrong way.

The 1967 and 1973 wars (which I supported) were a different story. In those cases, Israel was fighting for its life against professional national armies, and against all odds, it won.

It also dealt with terrorists in a very effective way at Entebbe, by sending in a small team of commandos to get the job done, no more no less, and get the hell out of there. It didn't bomb the entire country of Uganda because Idi Amin let the terrorists land there.

However, somewhere along the way, Israel over-learned the lessons of 1967 and 1973, and ever since the Begin government foolishly decided that it was a good idea to send Jewish settlers into the midst of a resentful Arab population living in one of the most crowded places on earth, the Israeli military has practiced collective punishment. If there's a terrorism suspect, bulldoze his whole family's house. Keep people from their jobs. Billet soldiers in Palestinian homes and tell people when and if they're allowed to go outside. Cut off all electric power to Gaza because somebody captured one Israeli soldier. Bomb Lebanon because there are terrorists there, and bomb even the parts that don't support Hezbollah.

Would any of the gung ho supporters of Israel like to be treated that way? Then why do they expect Arabs to take such treatment lying down? Why do they act shocked and offended when a people whose culture demands revenge for even for the slightest insults responds to Israel's collective punishments with revenge?

It's as if Israel is TRYING to make enemies. I bet Hezbollah is going to INCREASE its representation in the Lebanese parliament because people who never supported Hezbollah will be so pissed off at the Israeli government that they'll vote for that party just out of spite. Is that what Israel wants, neighbors who are even MORE hostile?

You don't stop terrorism by harming innocents in another country. I think we've all come to that conclusion about Iraq. You stop terrorism in the short term through undercover police work and espionage and carefully targeted commando raids, and in the long term by looking cooly and unemotionally and impartially at the grievances of the group that is producing the terrorists.

I'm against the bombings in Lebanon not only because they're inhumane, but because they're bad for Israel.

[ChiciB1]

214. You Said It Well... And I Totally Agree With You!

I've been staying tuned to Democracy Now and they have been reporting the same kind of information. Today's show was once again "on target" and had a former Israeli soldier on show said he will not fight this fight. He is part of a Peace Coalition of soldiers from Israel. There was also another one who did support the action, but by far the Peace activists made much more sense to me.

I think Israel has overstepped it's bounds and am appalled by the continuation of their attacks.

I'm not affiliated in any way with the many Jewish, Arab, Muslim or any of the many factions in the Middle East, I don't even call myself a Christian. I'm simply spiritual and what I'm seeing makes me think Israel is coming off as the Big Bad Bully.... just in the same way These Idiots in the WH and Congress think they have the right to run the world! We don't and THEY don't!

It's time to STOP THE KILLING!!

Oh, I forgot, THIS is what is called "balance of nature" only on a human level! It SUCKS!

[deaniac21]

209. Like what the allies did in WWII?

[Gregorian]

210. Defense is avoidance. Retaliation is violence.

People confuse defending oneself with getting even.

And that is why the cycle continues.

BREAK THE CYCLE. That is the noble cause that leads to peace.

[stepnw1f]

220. Your Post Burns the Repeated Talking Point Mentioned

Very well said..

[Ignoramus]

223. Exactly. Blame is to blame.

The problem is people retaliating against each other. The solution is to stop it.

[Dover]

213. Seems to me this post only prolongs the emotional debate

which, to me, is further diversion from the actual reason for Israel's attack on Lebanon.
Sure keeps people focused more on their differences than on the real issues.
But maybe that's your purpose?

[Snivi Yllom]

219. Except Israel did not get 'punched in the face' and had soldiers kidnapped

They are getting volley after volley of explosive rockets shot at them from another country, who's government is unwilling and incapable of stopping the attacks. What do you do short of invading the other country? You have to go after the rocket platforms, the bases, the safe houses, the logistical sources for the weapons. Hezbollah intentionally choose to base their military infrastructure among civilians within the intention to create casualties if attacked by Israel.

Let's not forget Israel had pulled out of Lebanon and Hezbollah was suposed to disarm.

[Pharaoh]

238. Ha Ha !

Will that is a really good analogy..........

[Cleetus]

239. wrong

Israel is surrounded by enemies. Enemies that hate them for being different from themselves. For being Jewish.

Israelis know one thing, that they must be strong to survive.

Why are so few Jews kidnapped? Because it is unlikely that Israel will negotiate with the kidnappers. Israel has demonstrated this 30 years ago, and the message is still strong.

The message is a simple one, fuck with Israel and you'll it back in spades. It has to be this way. Too many enemies. Too many people that are born hating Jews without ever knowing why. Too much danger. If Israel shows weakness, they'll pay for it. The entire Arab world is watching this conflict. They know the tenacity of the Israelis and they think twice before they fuck with them. Which explains why Iran chose to fight Israel by proxy.

Hezbollah are a bunch of fucking morons who allowed themselves to be manipulated by Iran and others. Thanks to Hezbollah, Lebanon may end up being bombed back into the stone age.

And let's not forget about the Lebanese Democracy that stands idle while a faction of their government fires missles into Israel. Democracy can never exist when an influential body like Hezbollah exists. Just doesn't make sense.

[Biernuts]

243. OK, I have a military background, the intuitive objectives are

twofold, the order isn't important.

1. Cut the command and control of the enemy leadership. If you don't control the ground, that leaves capture/kill.

2. Force the assholes with rockets to back up sufficiently so that they can't reach your own population. This will probably result in a cleared zone within Lebanon.

How do you guys feel about FDR allowing developmenmt of the A-Bomb and Harry Truman using it, even though it was a given that non-combatants would be killed? Are they war criminals? Was Japan mostly withdrawn onto their own territory a threat to anyone anymore? What about Wilson allowing US units to use Poison Gas in WWI?

[wtmusic]

251. Most are objecting to the scale of Israel's response

to a relatively minor incident.

Re: your comparisons to other scenarios, each had its own dynamic. I'm not sure you can compare Pearl Harbor and Japan's widely documented war crimes in China and Manchuria to the kidnapping of three soldiers. And I don't believe poison gas was used directly on civilian populations by the US in WWI but I could be wrong.

[tomp]

244. self delete

[Marie26]

247. Nothing is straightforward.

Especially, nothing in Middle East politics is straightfoward. IMO, saying that is a little like Bush expressing his own opinion that "Hizbollah needs to stop this shit & it's all over." Simplistic solutions don't go very far. Understanding this conflict means understanding the deep historical, ethnic, & geopolitical background that's inspiring it. And most Americans don't have a clue. I don't have a clue. Probably you'd need a degree in Middle Eastern Affairs, or extensive diplomatic experience, to really understand. Otherwise, we don't really know the truth about what's going on here. But maybe the first step of wisdom is knowing what you do not know. Because once you've admitted your ignorance, you can learn.

[NashVegas]

250. I've Really Stopped Caring How Appropriate the Response Is

Both sides in the argument have endured diplomatic non-resolutions for far too long.

There comes a point in situations like the one that they are in where diplomacy only hinders the inevitable, leaving everyone constipated and miserable.

[Warren DeMontague]

252. Some of the outrage is coming from there, Will. Take a look around

and you'll see that not all of it is.

Many of those threads have been moved or locked, but you really don't need to look very far around here to find someone espousing the position that the UN declaration of '47 was a "mistake", the creation of Israel was a "great wrong", and that Israel has "stolen" all the land it has. See, Will, it's not about Israel not having a right to exist- except when it is.

For the record, with what's going on now, I agree- I think this is clear overreaction on the part of Israel. Given the information I've seen, I think this is counterproductive. I think indiscriminately targeting civilians, no matter what the circumstances, is inexcusable.

But allow me to offer a glimpse into the state of mind behind this stuff. Not apologia, but elucidation. Israel -certainly elements of Israeli society- has actively sought peace for years. Call bullshit if you wish, but I think history bears this out. Elements of Palestinain society have sought peace as well, real peace that accepts Israel's existence- not the bogus kind of peace I've seen floated here in recent days, the kind where Israel "just goes away". Some of Israel's neighbors have made peace with them as well- and that's why, when Egypt and Israel signed those very famous accords, Israel gave back the Sinai.

Again, this fact doesn't gel with the image of Israel as the wanton land-grabber, with no intention of returning land in exchange for real peace that I see repeatedly proffered around here.

It's not black and white- I'll for sure acknowledge that. The settlements, for instance- have been idiotic and illegal and an all around Bad Fucking Idea. It may surprise some to know that the settlers are extremely unpopular amongst many mainstream Israelis. They look at them like we look at, say, Pat Robertson. Worse. Maybe Fred Phelps. There's no excuse for Israel not pulling those people out and destroying the settlements- although it's worth noting, that's what they did in Gaza, and their reward was rocket fire.

But shit, if even on DU you can't get through a few threads on the subject without someone suggesting that "peace" means "just get rid of Israel -maybe we can put all those Jews in Wyoming- and give the Palestinians back their land" (actually, believe it or not, Jews have been living there continually for centuries, and lots of the Israeli land was bought and paid for- a strange way of "stealing" it) ... if that mentality is prevalent here... among the same people who can't figure out how Israel thinks it is justified in striking back when attacked, or say that it constitutes a "persecution complex" to imagine that the Arab states had any intention of attacking Israel in 1967... imagine how it must be for the Israelis, surrounded by people who not only continually state that they don't have a right to their nation, but who have acted on it repeatedly. When every time Israel does what good intentioned folks ask them to -i.e. withdraw from occupied territory- they are rewarded with more attacks by people who think Israel's withdrawl constitutes a "victory" for them.

I used to be VERY critical of Israel. And I was heartened by the victories peace-minded Israelis won in the 1990s. And since we had competent leadership in the whitehouse from President Gave-a-Shit back then, as opposed to flying on instruments under Commander Clueless like we are now, I think the region came really close to a long-term, peaceful solution to many- if not all- of their issues. Heartbreakingly close.

But I have to tell you, the Israeli left and Israeli peace movement have been left- twisting in the wind. Because how do you convince people that there is a partner for peace when, as Tom Friedman observed, "land for peace" has been exchanged by Hamas and Hezbollah for "land for war"? Israel pulled out of Gaza, yet rockets were still being fired. Oh, yeah, Hamas had a "cease fire". So they took the Hamas logo off the rockets that, nevertheless, continued to be fired at Israel.

My point is, if people keep telling Israel "screw you, you don't have a right to your nation", and their enemies continually call for their destruction, who can be surprised when they decide that the thing that matters- and the only thing that matters- is their immediate physical security? They pulled out of Lebanon in 2000 and Iran -or someone- immediately started arming Hezbollah with thousands of missiles capable of striking deep within Israel. Hezbollah, who was supposed to disarm with all the other Lebanese militias. Six years later, no one has done anything about it- and Hezbollah kidnaps IDF soldiers, from inside Israel, unprovoked- asking for "heroes" like Samir Kuntar in return.

You're right, Will, Israel does have a right to defend itself. And you're right, I think they've gone overboard. I think what they're doing is counterproductive. I think it's a mistake. I think it's wrong.

But I also think we need to make a distinction, because some people are outraged about what Israel is doing, and some people are outraged about Israel, period. Intellectual honesty demands that we distinguish between those two points of view. That's pretty straightforward stuff, too.

People are calling for peace. I agree. Hell yes, Peace. Finally. Lets have all the countries in the area sign formal treaties fully recognizing the right of each other to exist, fully normalizing relations, ending the de facto state of war which has existed for 60 years- and stating that not only won't they attack each other, they won't tolerate terrorist criminals attacking from their territory, as well.

[liberalpragmatist]

284. Great Post

I wish I could hit a recommend button.

I consider myself pro-Palestinian and I think (as do most contemporary historians, including Israeli ones) that the standard Zionist version of history - even in supposedly clear-cut conflicts like '48 and '67 - were much more complex. I also think that Israel is clearly over-the-line here and that for all of Yasser Arafat's faults, a peace agreement was achievable at Camp David and at Taba and that Clinton and Barak share some blame as well. The offer made to Arafat at Camp David, for instance, wasn't really a viable state, although the offer made later at Taba was better (note that the Palestinians didn't reject this offer; they offered a counterproposal and negotiations continued but were called off by the Israelis because there wasn't enough time before the election).

In spite of all those views, however, and in spite of my view that Israel is going way overboard here, it is VERY hard to have a rational discussion with more pro-Israel people because threads are so easily hijacked by people who view Israel as the source of all evil in the Middle East and DO continually question Israel's right to exist or attribute only the worst motives to the Israelis time and time again. This is no worse than assuming the worst of the Arabs as a whole, something I think is wrong.

YES, Israel has made many mistakes. YES, it isn't completely innocent. But it's people have a right to defend itself, Hezbollah is not a legitimiate resistance force when it's bombing civilians and the question of whether Israel should have been created is IRRELEVANT to the current situation! Israel EXISTS, it's people have a right to live there and they have a right to expect a life without being attacked.

[truth2power]

253. Will...this is a very long thread, but I hope you read this..

I don't always agree with you, but in this case you've clearly stated the problem, and I couldn't agree more. This isn't defense. It's a disproportionate response and it makes me sick.

I haven't read this entire thread yet. I will do so, you can be sure. But of what I've read so far, I'm amazed at some of the simplistic notions regarding what Lebanon and/or Hezbollah can or should do to remedy this horrible situation.

I urge everyone who reads this thread to go to this link and listen to NPR's Fresh Air for Thurs. July 20. Interview with Julia Choucair of the Carnegie Endowmentfor International Peace. The segment is only about 39 minutes long.

http://www.npr.org/templates/rundowns/rundown.php?prgId=13&prgDate=07-20-2006&view=storyview

I think anyone who listens to this will have a better understanding of the complexity of the Lebanon/Hezbollah political situation.

Now, I want to relate what happened to me several days ago. I was talking with a very dear friend. I've known him and his wife for 24 years. They are both liberal and we share a loathing of all things Bush.

Our conversation turned to the current conflict and I said that I thought Israel's response was disproportionate and he disagreed. He said Hezbollah were terrorists. Well, ok. I then referred to a recent Human Rights Watch report in which they used Just War theory to address jus in bello, the way each party to an armed conflict must conduct itself in the course of hostilities. Very unbiased, I thought. (I can provide a link if anyone is interested. Need to go find it again.)

Well, he shortly began yelling at me. He said I didn't know what I was talking about. (I was relating what HRW said. He should have been yelling at them IMO.)

He continued to yell and then he shocked me by asking if I believed the holocaust happened.

How did it get to this? So if you believe that Israel's turning Lebanon's infrastructure into rubble and killing civilians is wrong, you're a holocaust denier? And this was my friend. He knows better.

To top it all off he then said that if one soldier is captured, any retaliation by his country is acceptable. I asked if that meant nuking the offending country and all its citizens. He said , "yes".

I'll be charitable here, and assume that by this point my friend had come entirely unglued, because no sane person could countenance such a thing.

So this is what it's come to. The vitriol that's engendered when one says, "Israel is wrong". I don't understand.

[Lilith Velkor]

258. Same thing happened to me a few months ago

Except that I was talking about the occupation of Iraq, and my former friend thought I was talking about Palestine and freaked out.

And people think I'm crazy? Sheeit..

[Marie26]

267. ...

[ruggerson]

254. Nominated for stupidest post of the year n/t

[BulletproofLandshark]

256. Wow, what a concise, well-thought out response.

Now would be a good time to point out "stupidest" isn't a word.

[Dutch]

265. Seconded.n/t

[DemsRBetterLovers]

257. I am not touching this one...

with a 10 foot pole. I am neither jewish, nor muslim, israeli nor lebanese. I really dont know anything about the underlying hatred or history behind all of this, so I'm not going to comment (even though I want too).

[truth2power]

259. I know we're all busy, but..

Please take the time to listen to this program on NPR. 39 minutes. Helps to understand Lebanon/Hezbollah.

http://www.npr.org/templates/rundowns/rundown.php?prgId=13&prgDate=07-20-2006&view=storyview

I'm thinking many here (not you, necessarily) don't want to know there's another side to this.

edit> forgot to include the link.

[AX10]

273. kick

[Name removed]

278. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Scoot420fla]

280. Video by Noam Chomsky that Tells TRUTH about Conflict

http://www.truthstream.org/2006/07/iraq-afghanistan-war-on-terror-noam

Israel started this by kidnapping 2 palestinian civilians. Palistine retaliated by kidnapping one of their soldiers. Hezbullah is helping Gaza by creating a two front war for Israel to deal with.

[breakingranks]

282. kick

[Major Hogwash]

285. Good post. Clear and concise.

It's obvious that Israel over-reacted to any provocations that have happened recently.

But, Bush won't step in to stop it, so what can we do?