I Propose A Cease Fire Here at DU.

[berni_mccoy]

I see the members of DU here fighting over who was right in who did what in the Middle East between Lebanon and Israel. The only problem is that this conflict has been going on long before all of us were born. How can we expect those in the Middle East to stop fighting each other if we can't agree on one simple principle: that the fighting needs to stop... that the dying needs to stop... on both sides. I think we can all agree that is what must happen. Does it matter who hit who first? Does it matter that this conflict goes back to biblical times? Does it matter if one side is killing more than the other? I think all that matters at this point is that it stops. I pray for peace, both between Israel and Lebanon, and also for Iraq. Even if you are not spiritual, you can still hope for peace. Won't you hope for peace with me?

[Nikki Stone 1]

1. kick for peace

:kick:

[niceypoo]

61. Right, lets all stop posting, fold up and go home.....

.......fat chance

[uppityperson]

2. kick for peace

[Monkeyman]

3. Peace Now

[bigwillq]

5. Hi!

Congrats on 500 posts! :hi: :toast:

[Monkeyman]

6. Smile I will take that beer

[bigwillq]

37. I'll have one with you!

Cause boy I could use one! :beer: :toast:

[berni_mccoy]

38. I'm having one right now!

:toast: :beer:

[bigwillq]

39. Wish I were!

I'm still at work! Soon enough though! :beer:

[still_one]

4. The first constructive thread I have seen in a long time

[INDIA]

7. Kick for peace

And another kick for a sovereign nations rights to exist in peace. Lebanon, Iraq, Israel, everybody!:)

[RevCheesehead]

8. It's been going on for at least 5,000 years... Let it go, people!

Thank you for a reasonable suggestion. :thumbsup:

[Botany]

19. Did I ever tell you that you are my Fav EDV?

[RevCheesehead]

30. Not recently, but it's always nice to hear!

[ismnotwasm]

9. Kick for peace

For all.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

10. Absolutely.... divided we fail, united we prevail. n/t

[erknm]

78. Yes, by all means we should all just agree to agree!

er, uh, huh?

Do we have to walk in lock-step? Is that what this blog has become?

Is it more important to pretend to agree than to have discussion and debate? It seems to me that such a conclusion simply moves us one step closer to becoming a bunch of goose-stepping facists.
I can see it now, the new tag-line for the DU: "The Democratic Underground, Where You Agree or Log-Off".

I understand that it does no one any good to have a group of Rush ditto-heads posting here, but there are a good number of issues where reasonable people with a progressive bent do disagree. Not all issues fall on the pro- or anti-progressive side of the political spectrum.

Frankly, I disagree with the premise that we should pray for both groups in the fight. While there are certainly a good number of relatively innocent Lebanese victims, someone voted to give Hesbolah a position of power in Lebanon.

In either event, whether you agree or not is not the issue, but rather that we do not shut down meaningful debate here in the interest of avoiding conflict.

FH

[HysteryDiagnosis]

107. I agree with you completely.... n't

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

11. shalom salaam

and kick for peace.

[SharonRB]

12. Thank you for a voice of reason, berni

I have refused to comment on any of the numerous threads because I don't want to get into a flame war. As a Jew and supporter of Israel, I feel very outnumbered around here lately, which is unusual and somewhat uncomfortable.

We all want peace, but real peace, not peace that only lasts for a short time. And it has to be kept from both sides.

[Botany]

17. Did I ever tell you that you are my Fav EDV?

[SharonRB]

25. Looks yummy, Bot

Thanks, and peace!

[Botany]

28. Peace too

[SharonRB]

33. Oh, now you've really gone and done it

You sure know what I like.

[cboy4]

13. kick for peace

:kick:

[Erika]

14. All current wars need to be stopped

War should not even be an option.

[leftstreet]

43. Amen

:thumbsup:

[cali]

124. It shouldn't?

Even if genocide is being committed? Why don't you read about General Dallaire and Rwanda?

"After a 100-day reign of terror, some 800,000 Rwandan civilians were dead, most killed by their machete-wielding neighbors. Dallaire had sounded the alarm. He'd begged. He'd bellowed. He'd even disobeyed orders. "l was ordered to withdraw...by Boutros Ghali about seven, eight days into it. .. and I said to him, 'I can't, I've got thousands' -by then we had over 20,000 people-'in areas under our control,"' Dallaire said in a recent interview with Amnesty Now. The general's hands, always moving, rose beside his face as if to block the memories. "The situation was going to shit....And, I said, 'No, I can't leave."'


Had he had enough troops he would have engaged in warfare to save those hundreds of thousands of lives. Are you actually saying it wouldn't have been worth.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Heroes/Gen_Romeo_Dallaire.html

[Botany]

15. 2 things

1 Yes a cease fire in the Mid East is needed ASAP .... screw bush & condi .... other
smart people can broker a peace

2 @ DU no cease fire because this is where democracy rules .... "I disagree w/ what you
say but I will defend to the death your right to say it." As long as it is not personal or
lacks facts ..... bring it on ..... this is just a blog and NOBODY IS GETTING HURT AND OR KILLED.

[DanCa]

16. K&R for peace love and unity. (nt)

[RevCheesehead]

32. Danny!!!!!

:hug::loveya::hug:

[Minnesota Libra]

18. You've got a good point - I guess some of us.........

....hope that if we can work the issue out maybe we could help the Middle East do the same. You are right though , the ME has been fighting longer than any of us have been or will be alive.

So in the future if I can't bury the hatchet I'll at least try not to go looking to see where I left it. :hug:

[Cocoa]

20. i'm all for it

:toast:

[globalvillage]

21. Peace.

Thanks, berni. Peace sounds good to me.

[rockymountaindem]

22. Joining you in hoping for peace

Unlikely, but I'll hope anyway.

[Lost-in-FL]

23. THANK YOU!!!! PEACE PLEASE!!!!

:toast: :bounce: :toast: :bounce: :kick: :kick: :hi: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :pals: :applause: :applause:

[LeftCoast]

24. Kick for peace (and a recommend too!)

:kick:

[mikelgb]

26. Let Us

And they shall beat their keyboards into plowshares, and their mice into pruninghooks: DUer shall not lift up words against DUer, neither shall they learn war any more.

[ourbluenation]

27. yes please! and part of the goddman solution here is to move the

Israeli/hezbolah conversations TO THE FUCKING APPROPRIATE FORUM. The I/P forum. Skinner asked us to vote on it...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1687401

[still_one]

29. i agree with you, but it looks like it won't happen

[ourbluenation]

31. I saw that...what a shame.

[berni_mccoy]

34. Maybe if enough of us desire peace first and foremost

it will.

Peace can happen if we all work for it. Peace is not an easy road to travel. But the destination is well worth the effort.

[Zhade]

95. It's the I/P forum, not the I/H forum.

I for one am glad DUers can't hide from this festering sore of an issue.

"Sunlight is the best disenfectant."

[Hardrada]

35. There never was a bad peace.

Ben Franklin said that.

[longship]

36. I've stayed way out of it.

DU needs to move it back to the I/P forum.

IMHO, the only responsible position is peace. More killing isn't *ever* going to bring peace.

[cantstandbush]

40. Sorry, nice try but this doesn't work for me. Not going to stop saying

what I think is unjust, immoral, and untrue. Not going to stop listening to and learning. It's a slimy way to cut debate when old tactics are not working so well for your side. I not only hope for peace but I hope for a stop to the killing and innocents on both sides. I hope for peace in Iraq, in Israel and in Lebanon and Afghanistan. My hope does not negate my thinking or speaking out.

[berni_mccoy]

41. I'm sorry

I've not participated in any debate. I don't wish to cut debate and I am not applying a "slimy" tactic. I wish to see people stop fighting about nothing they can control or barely understand. The only proper thing to do is seek a cease fire. The killing must stop. I'm not asking people to stop debate, thinking or speaking out. I'm asking people to seek peace.

[erknm]

79. So what is the rule?

If you propose that we "stop fighting about nothing they can control or barely understand", then the number of posts in the DU will fall to just about zero.

First, few posters have any palpable control over the issues they are discussing.

Second, many people demonstrate their lack of understanding of these issues when they begin typing.

The market for ideas works, so long as we allow it.

FH

[stevietheman]

77. You are a good citizen. Freedom of speech is paramount. n/t

n/t

[Baclava]

42. Carnasaurs rule

[rman]

44. Sorry, i don't think hoping and praying will solve this problem

I think it is important to continue the debate on this issue.

[berni_mccoy]

46. Debating who started it or who reacted appropriately or

who has killed more people isn't going to solve it either.

The only thing that will solve it is for
a) both sides to stop shooting at each other (cease fire), or
b) one side kills everyone else on the other side

Personally, I'll opt for a). And the only real thing I can do about it is pray that the killing stops.

[jwirr]

62. As I remember the "he did - she did" argument, when I was

raising my children, was rather useless because neither would ever give in. I finally just took both in hand and had a cooling out time with the idea that "mother did not really care what happened" as long as it stopped. It worked for my family. I do not want to end debate but as I have been reading the posts here not all of it is debating - a good bit is very hotheaded anger. And a lot of people are being labeled anti-semitic when all they want is to find a solution for this time. The debate on long term solutions should continue in the right forum.

[erknm]

83. If the real world were only that simple.

(although now that 2 of my 5 kids are teenagers, the problems appear to be getting similarly complicated!)

It works in a family because there is a single, unquestionable authority, the parent, who can eventually control the situation. Who fills that role between Israel and Hesbolah?

By the way, you should be able to officially ignore those posters who just express stupidity, anger, etc. Thus the beauty of the medium, you can control your experience, but not others.

Makes great sense to me.

FH

[berni_mccoy]

91. You ask a valid question:

"It works in a family because there is a single, unquestionable authority, the parent, who can eventually control the situation. Who fills that role between Israel and Hesbolah?"

My Answer: A World Community that seeks peace over war as a way to solve problems. It can be achieved, but it will not be easy. The U.N. has called for a cease fire twice and both times, the U.S. has vetoed it. Our own government is standing in the way of a world seeking peace. Why?

[erknm]

99. The UN is not an unquestionable authority.

The UN is an organization that is directed via a variety of means, some reasonable and some disreputable. The vote is a reasonable means of direction. However, if there is a vote, then the authority is by definition, not unquestionable. This is 2+2=4 type stuff, should be easily understood.

The world community is not an unquestionable authority, individual members question its authority with great regularity and have moral grounds to do so. My children may not like the decisions I make on their behalf, but in all but the most extreme examples, I have the moral and legal authority to make these decisions on their behalf, without question.

So if you claim to offer the world community as an unquestionable authority, then you are wrong. My point was obvious, along the lines of the analogy used by the other poster, there is no unquestionable authority over these two groups, there cannot be.

Now, to the question you ask regarding the veto:

There are three, completely obvious answers that have been offered. These have been publicized on most news channels, papers, etc.

Why did the US veto the UN call for a cease-fire?

1. Israel, our ally, is opposed to a cease-fire.
2. A cease-fire would only serve to give Hesbolah time to further strengthen their forces in Southern Lebanon.
3. In support of #2, in the Arab culture, a cease-fire only serves to allow fighting to be delayed until the weaker party may become stronger.

I have a fourth, which I have not heard publized, but which I nonetheless also agree with: The Hesbolah is a group of terrorists who have killed Americans with intent in the past, thus the US should not go to their aid.


Remember, progessive, humanistic ideals which I generally support do not necessarily and always conflict with the actions of the United States.

Also, this is a complicated problem and those in the midst of it are only insulted by simplistic non-solutions such as the dog-eared slogan "Give peace a chance". How many more years, decades, centuries to the anti-semites need?

By the way, before you make the obvious ad-hominen claim, I am not Jewish. I do however, recognize that complicated problems almost never entertain simple solutions.

FH

[funnymanpants]

102. Wrong

>>Why did the US veto the UN call for a cease-fire?

Your reasons are wrong. The US doesn't want a cease fire because it wants Israel to impose its will on the rest of the region, no matter how unjurt or immoral. Hizbollah is a terrorist organzatin, but Israel is certainly guilty of a lot more blood than Hizbollah. Every human rights group that has looked at the region has found Israel has commited "deliberate killing" and "torture." Israel right now has 10,000 Palestinian prisoners, most not charged with any crime. Their detention is condemned by human rights groups.

As far as Hizbollah getting stronger, this claim is also dubious at best. Hizbollah will always be a very weak entity next to the IDF. If there is a cease fire, is Hizbollah suddenly going to get tanks and an air force? How are they going to even get the inaccuarte rockets with Israel controlling the situation?

And while ther is no cease fire, Lebanon and its economy is being destroyed. Innoncent civilians are being killed and the IDF, according to Human Rights Watch, is committing war crimes. (So is Hizbollah, of course.) So not supporting a cease fire is very much against humanistic ideals.

Also, as I wrote above, the conflict goes back 100 years. As historians have noted, Arabs in the region treated Jew with sympathy and only became hostile when they realized the intent to take over thier land. So the centuries of anti-semitism really is not relevant.

[jwirr]

98. I do ignore most of the posts on this issue, but I also think that they

have either pushed every other major issue off this forum or there is nothing else happening in the world.

[erknm]

100. I think this is a worthy debate

and this is a great forum for it. While this blog is a place for similarly minded people to come and preach to the choir, I see this as a situation in which there is not a single progressive position. There are some who will always and everywhere oppose the US position. Thus they must in this case support the Hesbolah. Alternatively, there are others who recognize the human rights violations against Israel, human rights violations imposed by Iran and Hesbolah. Further, there are people who question the US alliance with Israel and see Israel as responding in a manner that does not match the crime committed against them. Finally, there are those people who will always oppose war regardless of the scenario in which it presents itself.

Thus a great forum for a great debate.

FH

[funnymanpants]

104. False number of choices

>>There are some who will always and everywhere oppose the US position. Thus they must in this case support the Hesbolah. Alternatively, there are others who recognize the human rights violations against Israel, human rights violations imposed by Iran and Hesbolah.

I think you forgot something. There will be those who actually read the human rights reports and who have read many histories and hence will be against the numerous human rights violations committed *by* Israel, including the massive land theft against an indigenous people. These same people might be very thoughtful and hate the human rights violations committed by Hizbollah and Iran, but also recognize that that doens't mean Israel is innoncent.

These same people might recognize that the Native Americans committed attrocities against the white settlers, but that the Native Americans were still the victims since they were being pushed off their land by massive state power and cynical treaties which were never honored, and would conclude that the Israeli gov't is acting the same way the American gov't did to the Indians.

There's also that possibility.

[NMMNG]

45. Peace!

:hippie:

[Vidar]

47. Good idea.

[Breeze54]

48. Good idea, Berni!

I missed these flame fests here this last week and I've been avoiding them this week.

It seems like an exercise in futility to me. What is it accomplishing? Nada! Zip! Zilch!

The only problem is that this conflict has been going on long before all of us were born.
This is very true!

I'm tired of war and I'm tired of people in this place attacking each other!
It isn't just this topic either but there are other annihilation's happening here at DU...

Do you think the flame fests are due to the high temps across the country and boredom?
:shrug:

When does school start back up again?

Maybe it was a good thing that my computer died last week. I was forced to take a break!

Peace-OUT!!!!

[JDPriestly]

49. Nice idea -- but unrealistic because we can't run from this

very important problem. And much of the problem arises from the fact that the two sides have very different views of their shared history.

In my view, you can't just talk about peace. How do we attain peace in the Middle East? Probably by placing large numbers of neutral troops in there. The UN can't do it because it is viewed as too pro-Palestinian for the Israelis. How about a mix of troops from Canada, Brazil, India, the U.S., Russia and Saudi Arabia -- or some similar totally crazy mix?

[DoYouEverWonder]

53. Peace is not about running away

Peace is about facing each other and putting down the weapons in order to work out a solution that is fair to both sides. It is easy just to continue to bomb each other. It takes a lot of courage and balls to try peace.

[ProfessorGAC]

50. You Got My Vote

It's flat out fatiguing to see this infighting.
The Professor

[SlipperySlope]

Fighting needs to stop, Hezbullah needs to stop

The only path to peace is through disarming Hezbullah.

[funnymanpants]

72. No

The only path to peace is by Israel obeying international law following UN Security Council resolutions, such as 242 and 338, both of which call for Israel to cease its illegal occupation.

The conflict started when Israeli kidnapped two Palesinians. (Iraeli has in fact kidnapped thousands of Palesinians, and holds 10,000 Palestinians in jails, most without any due process of law, a practice condemned by human rights groups.) The next day a Palestinian terrorist organization kidnapped an Iraeli soldier. In response, Israel attacked civilian infrastructure in Gaza, and kidnapped members of the Hamas government, a practice even criticized in Israel. In response Hizbolla kinnapped two soldiers.

In response Israel started bombing Lebanon. In response Hizbollah fired rockets into Israel.

None of this would have happened if Israel was not illegally occupying the West Bank and parts of Jerasulum. And Hizbollah, though a terrorist organization, would not exist if Israel did not invade Lebanon illegally in 1982.

[SlipperySlope]

109. Lebanon 1982

Gee, Israel wouldn't have had to invade Lebanon if there weren't hundreds of artillery cannons firing from Lebanon into Isreael.

[funnymanpants]

116. I don't think so

This is inaccurate. Israeli already mounted major attacks against Lebanon in March of 1978, killing over 1,000 Palestinians and Lebanese. The motive according to some historians was to destroy the PLO, which was stationed in Lebanon. Israel again bombed Lebanon in May of 1981. The PLO did nothing for five days and then started shelling Israel.

A cease fire was agreed to by both sides and upheld.

In April of 1982, with troops massed on the border, Israel launched attacks on Palestinian headquarters in Lebanon. In May, Israel attacked again. This time the PLO responded by firing 8 rounds of ammunition into Israel but then declared it would abide by the cease fire, as it already had.

Then, on June 6 of the same year, Palestinians extremists, hostile to the PLO in Lebanon, killed the Israeli ambassador to Britain. The PLO denounced the attack. No matter. Begin wanted the war and invaded Lebanon, violating international law.

Again, if Israel did not illegally occupy the West Bank, Gaza, and Jerusalem, it would not have felt the need to invade Lebanon to weaken the PLO, and Hizbollah would not have been born.

At any rate, the attack on Lebanon was illegal. Israel violated the UN Security Council resolution demanding a cease fire.

[SlipperySlope]

121. Lebanon 1978

And Israel would not have needed to invade Lebanon in 1978 if the PLO wasn't using it to launch attacks into Israel.

You just keep digging yourself into a deeper hole.

[funnymanpants]

123. Wrong

No, I am not digging myself in a deepr hole. You are simply not reading my posts.

Israel attacked fist in 1978.

Further, this has nothing to do with 1982. My post clearly points out that Israel was the agressor. You have not addressed this at all. Why did Israel provoke the attack, and why did it lie about the reasons? It did not state that it was invading in 1982 because of rocket attacks, you are clearly mistaken. It invaded because of what Palestinians did in London, Palestinians wholly unrealted to Lebanon.

[ManWroteTheBible]

84. Not to start or continue an argument...

But that sounds a lot like Bush's view - "...get Hezbollah to stop this shit." It takes 2 to fight. Hezbollah must disarm - sure... but Israel must stop expanding/encroaching and killing innocents - as must Hezbollah and Hamas must stop killing innocents. Disarming Hezbollah/Hamas without Israel making concessionsa ain't the answer. I agree with putting in neutral troops to keep the peace. But simply disarming Hezbollah/Hamas isn't the solution. I hope this isn't viewed as anything more than expressing my own personal view. And I apologize if anyone is offended. Ultimately, peace has to win out because the alternative doesn't bode well for any of us!

[Name removed]

122. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lonestarnot]

51. PEACE FIRE!

[helderheid]

57. I. LOVE. IT. !!

[lonestarnot]

59. Good. Start one!

[IronLionZion]

67. Douse it with Iraqi oil! eom

[lonestarnot]

113. There is none to be had, they stole all of it.

[lonestarnot]

114. kick

[goclark]

52. Thank YOU! Prayers for PEACE in the ME and at DU nt

[bdamomma]

54. the unncessary death and destruction of the Middle East

has to stop, we are just fueling a bigger and greater danger, which is this regime's plan.

All this death for what, innocent people are getting killed, and more radicals will take their place.

[jwirr]

55. Thank you. I have tried to keep all my post in that light. When we

begin to argue the details then we are participating in the same war they are. Let peace begin here and now.

[helderheid]

56. PEACE! (and recommended)

[Xenotime]

58. Relaxing peace and quiet.

I just need to meditate for a few hours.

[PuraVidaDreamin]

60. A voice of sanity

Thank you very mucy berni

[Major Hogwash]

63. Touche! We can't stop the killing in real life by posting on a forum

anyway.

You'd think calmer heads would prevail here at the best Democratic forum on the net.
*sheesh*

Take a break, folks.

Damned good post, Berni.

[Meshuga]

64. I am all for that! - Thanks!

Looking for solutions to the issues without the paranoia from either side can help us reach a common ground here in DU. When accepting extremes from either side means the person is not interested in this proposal.

Great thread and recommended!

[savemefromdumbya]

65. Lebanon just takes the public's mind off Iraq

[Donald Ian Rankin]

85. The Lebanese might disagree with you.

Far more people *have* died in Iraq, but the relevant question is future deaths, not past ones, and Lebanon may well be as or more bloody than Iraq in the weeks to come.

[ElboRuum]

66. I'm not trying to be a jackass here...

but I'm sure that's not going to stop people thinking that this is precisely what I am for saying it.

I'll hope for peace (I'll leave the praying to those more devout than I) but you won't see it in your lifetime. Not in your children's lifetime, not in your grandchildren's lifetime.

You said it yourself, this conflict goes back to Biblical times.

Look at the Middle East, the religions that originated there, and their primary premise:

"We are the chosen... your god is false, our God is true... and you stand between us and salvation... this is OUR holy land."

Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all proclaim themselves as the one true religion believing in the one true God, and lay claim to the holy land. As we all know, religion, taken to its extreme, warps and destroys the fertile mind of the human into something dogmatically cybernetic. With the robotic nature of zealotry and the right of entitlement these religions feel to occupying this area as a point of divine fiat, there is no shot at peace here.

[ArmchairMeme]

68. Looking for good

I was reading about what people were doing in Lebanon and came across an account of people who had moved to a small park where nuns were setting up beds for anyone who needed them. They were also finding schools that could offer space for babies. One person's teeshirt had these words OFFER JOY.

I had to think about the reality that people are doing good during the midst of war, and it did not mention their nationality or the color of their skin.

[Mrspeeker]

69. WAR IS WRONG!!! KILLING IS WRONG!!!

EVEN HOLY WARS!!

Peace is the only real solution

[dogday]

70. K&R for innocent lives and peace........ nt

[funnymanpants]

71. Please educate yourself

Before there can be peace, there has to be justice, and before there can be justice there has to be a real understanding of why there is fighting in the Middle East. Your statement that "Does it matter that this conflict goes back to biblical times" is simply abusrd. Read a history on the situation. The conflict between the Israelis and the Palestinians started around the turn of the century, when the founders of Israel wanted to establish a state in someone else's land. That is simply an historical fact. For example, have a look at the UN history of the region, a history compiled my many historians. It notes that before the turn of the century Arabs and Jewish people got on very well, and in fact Arabs had sympathy for the prosecution of the Jews.

The step towards peace is justice, which involves Israel end its occupation. You will not get peace without justice, and you certainly won't get it through cliches.

[berni_mccoy]

81. You are confusing the Israeli-Arab conflict and

The Jewish-Islamic conflict. Please read about the differences here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab-Israeli_conflict. There are several links from this article that discuss the conflicts between Jews and Muslims going back over 2000 years.

[funnymanpants]

101. Good grief!

The very first thing on the link you provided is:

The Arab-Israeli conflict (Arabic: الصراع العربي الإسرائيلي‎, Hebrew: הסכסוך הישראלי ערבי) spans about a century of political tensions and open hostilities. It involves the establishment of the modern State of Israel as a Jewish nation state, as well as the relationship between the Arab nations and the state of Israel (see related Israeli-Palestinian conflict).

As for the so-called Jewish-Islamic conflict, that is nonsense. We can also talk about the Christian-Jewish conflict, which goes back to biblical times. But this conflict does not cause wars in modern times.

What is being discussed right now is the Isreali-Lebanon war, which is directly related to Israel's former occupation of Lebaon and its current occupation of the West Bank, Gaza (yes, it still occupies it despite the pullout) and the West Bank.

[kpete]

73. ABSOLUTELY

K&R for peace

The Fighting NEEDS To Stop!

[The Straight Story]

74. Screw that, I am putting you on ignore

and then email bombing you, you took my thread space here at DU, and 50 years ago you pissed me off to. It can't end, cause then I won't have anything to do on GD anymore. And I am right, you are wrong, and I can't stop until you see all things my way - and if you don't you are ignorant, biased, and a lot of other words that help me destroy my own argument...

Obviously :sarcasm: :)

Thanks for the thread! Getting a cease fire here on DU might be harder than peace in the ME ;)

[stevietheman]

75. Israel overreached (at best). I won't condemn anyone...

who thinks otherwise, but I will say that Israel being in the wrong in this case is obvious. I was a conditional supporter of Israel before these events happened. Now, I am ambivalent.

[tlsmith1963]

76. Sorry I Feel This Way, But...

...I'm sick of the whole thing. I'm sick of being drawn into this, because every time we get involved, it's nothing but trouble. I feel bad about it, but I just want to wash my hands of the whole thing. They have been fighting this battle my whole life, & even before I was born. I feel like they want this. They may deny it, but if they really don't want this why don't they find a way to stop? They are so filled with bitterness & hatred that they can't stop. They don't even care about the other countries that keep being dragged into this. I think we should just go to electric cars & stop buying their oil. It's the oil that keeps us there. Again, I feel bad that I had to come to this conclusion, but how can we win a losing battle? They have to decide to stop it themselves. We can't decide for them.

Tammy

[porphyrian]

80. No, I think it's easier to keep fighting about who's fault it is.

:eyes:

[McCamy Taylor]

82. Give peace a chance!

[Donald Ian Rankin]

86. I disagree; fights like this are very healthy indeed.

The thing that most frightens me about DU is the echo chamber effect. Issues like the Israeli/Palestinian conflict (and gun control, and religion) that DUers actually disagree about substantially, should be treasured and discussed as much as possible.

I come here a) to convince people who currently disagree with me about things to agree with me, and b) to check that they are unable to advance arguments of sufficient strength to make me change my mind and agree with them. Talking politics with people who already agree with me is not terribly productive.

[SeattleGirl]

87. Peace, indeed.

Thank you, berni, for your post. I agree. This has been going on longer that any of us have been around, and fighting each other over it is not contributing anything positive to the situation. It only adds to all the negativity already in the world. I pray for peace.

[oasis]

88. I'm pro DU so it's certainly worth a try. (eom)

[Rottenmac]

89. here i am being freeper-ish

I say move everyone out. Displace the jews, palestinians, EVERYONE. Move them to... lets say i dunno... Montana and Wyoming.

Then we drop half our nuclear arsenal on bethlehem, etc. Who wants to fight over a big smoking nuclear radioactive hole in the ground?

So tired of the insanity, and i don't even understand it all. I just want people to not be so stupid.

[Ignoramus]

90. I haven't seen a debate over which side is right

so, the premise is wrong.

Essentially the argument is, are you for or against a pro-Israel bias. Not, do you support the terrorist or do you support us. Not. do you support saddam or do you support shock and awe.

The conflict is between innocent victim (the lebanese population) versus Beligerents (the Iraeli government and the Hezbollah organization). Oops, adding Israeli population as victim too. Sorry.

So, no we can't agree to disagree. It's not acceptable to slaughter innocents. A "neutral" position is acceptance of the slaughter.

[helpman]

92. kick4peace

kick4peace!

[Zhade]

93. Peace, yes. Ending the discussion. no.

I cannot in good conscience keep silent on the Israeli government's collective punishment of Lebanon, and I REFUSE to.

But for the killing on both sides to stop, you have my complete support.

[Dead_Parrot]

94. But what will happen to my popcorn concession?

:evilgrin:

k&r

[northamericancitizen]

96. An other K&R for PEACE

[Bark Bark Bark]

97. Hope For Peace--Continue The Discussion

I got banned from John Avaricious' Orchid And Katherine Harris Blog With Occasional Political Discussion for criticizing his blanket support for Israel's policy of collective punishment. Actually, I didn't even criticize it; I just CALLED it support for a policy of collective punishment. Instant ban for that! John A's a wonderful progressive; he brooks absolutely NO questioning of his Godlike "A-List" judgment.

[khashka]

103. Yeah it must stop...

I saw a woman (Arab Israeli) on TV. She said her loyalty is broken just as her heart is.... She buried her two youngest children.


And that's the truth here. We can come up with all sorts of political excuses..... but it's never gonna be good enough. Oh we can choose sides! But it ain't our children who are dead in our arms.....


Khash.

[thoughttheater]

105. Palestinian State: If We Build It, Answers Will Come

Read an analysis of the current conflict in the Middle East and how the resolution of the Palestinian situation is likely the only real means to ending the escalating regional unrest...here:

www.thoughttheater.com

[cmd]

106. I usually ignor Palistinian/Israeli threads, but this one is a good one

Peace, Berni:thumbsup:

[twaddler01]

108. K&R

For peace :thumbsup:

[Mr_Spock]

110. Peace is long overdue.

I blame all of this on Bush's lack of involvement, failed war in Iraq & the corresponding promotion of the preemptive attack.

[Larry Ogg]

111. There are undoubtedly divers opinions here at DU, about Israel’s rights

to defend its borders, its right to defend itself against terrorism and its right to exist. And I do believe it is a subject that should be discussed. But most important it is a subject that all people should be educating them selves about. Reason being, the one sided coverage that our own corporately owned media give us. Stop and think about it, how doe’s the corporate media portray the fascist neo-cons that stole our government, and who are in the process of destroying our country, fleecing our national treasure and seeking world domination. I personally can not trust Bush or believe any thing that comes out of his administration or the corporate shamefully biased media. Remember Robert F. Kennedy Jr's. recent article ware he said, “80% of Republicans are just Democrats who don't know what's going on.” http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=2734136 Please keep this in mind when you develop or create opinions as to what is really going on in the Middle East, don’t fall into the Republican trap on this issue, and above all get educated. There seems to be an endless supply of links on the net ware one can find the, other side of the story… Here’s one I received from a fellow DUer. It’ a web site from a group of people that need to be heard. JEWS UNITED AGAINST ZIONISM “http://www.nkusa.org/index.cfm”

[Seattleman]

112. We need the truth

Not only do we need to work for peace, we need to keep up the research and discussion to determine the real truth about WHY we went into Iraq, who fomulated the agenda, and how we can prevent other groups of people from manipulating public opinion and leading us into war under false pretenses.

[SCRUBDASHRUB]

115. n/t

[ProudDad]

117. with a secular amen

I've already posted a workable plan for Peace...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2733915&mesg_id=2733915

[PerceptionManagement]

118. I just hope the zionist bomb Iran. Otherwise the pro-Israel pacs..

will force the US to do it.

[T Town Jake]

119. But GOD has already spoken on this issue...

Here

How can any Hip DUer possibly disagree?

The King Cool Kid has spoken, and that's that....

[No DUplicitous DUpe]

120. A Truly Great Idea. Peace

Can't we all just get along?
Rodney King

[Tenseiga]

125. thumbs up

neither side has engaged in good behavior lately.

in fact I'd vote for the US to stay as neutral as possible (oops...too late) for as long as possible.

Just look at the factionalism going on in Iraq betwwen the Sunnis and Shiites. Even amongst believers of the same religion they can't make peace. (That's not meant as a slam on Islam, that's just the way it is.)

[guinivere]

126. An excellent and reasonable post.

I will hope and pray for peace with you.

[jsamuel]

127. yes, the fighting does need to stop

[Fleshdancer]

128. sounds great to me!

It's bad enough that the death and devastation is occurring over there. There's no need for the animosity to carry over here when, at the end of the day, I think we all want nothing more than a lasting resolution that works for everyone.

[magellan]

129. What a revolutionary idea!

Peace. Envision it. Be it. Live it.