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Olberman said it: Invading/blowing up a country does not stop terrorism

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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 11:17 PM
Original message
Olberman said it: Invading/blowing up a country does not stop terrorism
Edited on Thu Jul-20-06 11:20 PM by jsamuel
Just saw it on Countdown. He did not say it in those exact words, but that is what they were saying. Thank You!

"Every time there has been a confrontation between Lebanon and Israel, support for Hezbollah has grown."

In fact it only exasperates the problem and hurts our interests in the region.

Time for a different foreign policy dealing with terrorism.


Invading/blowing up a country does not stop terrorism
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
1. Time for a 'logical' foreign policy, and I fear we won't get one from
what passes for power now.
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. yes, logical is a good adjective for what we need
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Herman Munster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
3. so
but what's the alternative? Give the terrorists everything they want? Allow them to become emboldened by their methods? That would be politically untenable to Israel.

Israel is damned if they do, and damned if they don't. There is no way to win a holy war where both sides are ruled by batshit crazy people blinded by religious dogma until one side annihilates the other.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. I refer you to my solution of this problem...
Edited on Thu Jul-20-06 11:30 PM by originalpckelly
the only outstanding issue would be Shaaba Farms <-and that is because Hezbollah is completely full of shit on that claim.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1689816
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. false choice

This false choice of either invading a country or taking the hits from terrorists has to stop in American and world politics. The simple fact is that by invading/blowing up a country, it does not defeat terrorism, instead it only makes it stronger. I think anyone only has to look as far as Iraq and even Afghanistan to see this truth laid bare.

So, by supporting invasions to stop terrorism, we are SUPPORTING TERRORISM by giving it the avenues for growth.

...

In order to respond to those who say I offer no alternatives, I will suggest the following.

Why couldn't Israel work with their close friend Lebanon in routing out Hezbollah WHILE WORKING WITH Lebanon instead of invading it? Lebanon's army is weak, so that is where Israel could help out supplying support to the Lebanese government/military. Limited of course. They would overwhelm Hezbollah from the inside. The Lebanon government would be boosted with support from Israel and the international community. Lebanon would become more stable.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. Ah, but what you don't understand is this-
The US corporate backed war is giving the terrorists EXACTLY
what they want.
A reason to retaliate.
It's a win-win for the multi nationals and the terrorists.
AND furthermore, the US corporate states of 'murikkka
can't wait for a reason to justify attacking Iran.
Welcome to DU.
BHN
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #3
21. This is no such thing as a "holy war". eom
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threadkillaz Donating Member (453 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 11:27 PM
Response to Original message
4. There wouldnt be terrorism if..
Edited on Thu Jul-20-06 11:28 PM by threadkillaz
...we didn't try to shove McDonalds and Mastercards down their throats while we rob their oil.


They hate us for our corporations.

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Herman Munster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. no
there wouldn't be terrorism if people weren't brainwashed with bullshit relgious dogma. Organized religion is poision and the true cancer to society.
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. I disagree
Religion CAN be used as a weapon by bad people. However, like knives, they can be used to feed people (agriculture,hunting,cooking) and people can use knives as a weapon. So, we should not advocate taking away something that is only bad when bad people use it the wrong way.
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melnjones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #6
20. If there wasn't organized religion...
people would end up just creating their own organized religion. It's how the world works. The bad stuff you see in organized religion comes from people, not religion.
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knowbody0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. i soooooo agree with you
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ananda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. me too
"They hate us for our corporations."

Geez. I live here, and -I- hate us for our corporations.

Sue
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
19. me three
But aren't those wonderful profits from the death and suffering of haman beings great for pumping up the GDP?? Planned obsolescence is perfected in the form of bombs and bullets.

:puke:
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 11:30 PM
Response to Original message
8. Yes, that would be correct- HANG ON FOR THE BLOWBACK
WHAT THE AVERAGE AMERICAN DOES NOT COMPREHEND IS THIS:
Everyone in the ME fully comprehends that the latest US backed
debaucle is about IRAN and furthering US hegemony in the region.
Think this will decrease "terrorism" aimed at US (World Bank and IMF interests?)
Think again.

BHN
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Truthiness Inspector Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #8
18. Wow
You speak for "everyone" in the Middle East? LOL.

By the way, you do not.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. You are so right- I stand corrected...
The ME has its share of kool aide swilling zealots too.
The ME version of the evangelical bushbots here in
'murikkka.
As evidenced by so many threads on DU lately
perpetuated by people who have no clue as to
what the global agenda is about.

Thanks for your contribution.
Next...

BHN
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Truthiness Inspector Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. What is your expertise?
You claim many of us "don't have a clue." I disagree. I think many of us here have a clue. It's just that some of us are disagreeing with others, as is the nature of things.

How would you solve this complex and gigantic problem?
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #27
30. There is no disagreement possible when examining the facts.
Edited on Fri Jul-21-06 12:18 AM by BeHereNow
The facts are indisputable.
I am not interested in opinions or emotional belief systems
where hegemonic corporate US led corporate aggression
is concerned.
Iran is the target- period.
The FUBAR situation in Israel and Lebanon is
merely the stepping stone in which civilians on both sides, as well as Americans,
are, and will be, simply regarded as "collateral damage."
My expertise?
I read global authors who write political analysis containing words that
most 'murikkkans need a dictionary to comprehend.
Respectfully,

BHN
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Truthiness Inspector Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. Ok, did you know that Iran funds Hezbollah?
Whose fault is that--the Israelis'?

You insist that Iran is the target, but that bullseye was drawn by the Iranian regime themselves.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. And now you are beginning to get the picture.
Cui Bono?
BHN
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Truthiness Inspector Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. Not really
And I'm not trying to be sarcastic. I really don't get what you are trying to say, given our previous exchange above.
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
10. What happened in the 70's when various terrorist organizations
were tearing up Lebanon?

Nothing was done then, and they have only grown stronger, of course the Iraq war didn't help



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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. I am DEFINITELY not advocating apathy.
or indifference
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. I presumed that
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Truthiness Inspector Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 11:37 PM
Response to Original message
15. If only it were so simple ::sigh:::
Sitting down and talking to homicidal maniacs like Hezbollah is much more reasonable, because homicidal nuts are known for their ability to be fair and honorable. If Olbermann really said "blowing up a country" that saddens me, because he is over-simplifying this very complex problem.

Maybe I'll send Olbermann an email asking him how he would get rid of Hezbollah, for the benefit of both Israel AND Lebanon. Hezbollah is unwanted by the majority of the WORLD.

How do you force homicidal personas non grata to just leave a region, and if any cunning strategist found a way, where would they go, and why should anyone else accept or tolerate them?
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. we should not "sit down and talk to homicidal maniacs like Hezbollah"
Edited on Thu Jul-20-06 11:40 PM by jsamuel
See my post called "false choice" (#7)
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Truthiness Inspector Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. We agree
I have posted the same many times here.

Lebanon MUST join Israel in routing out Hezbollah. The fact that they have not is the problem and instead missiles and rockets were launched from Lebanese soil into Israel.

Better late than never, and it's the only "solution" to this issue I can see, but in fairness it was Lebanon's failure to route Hezbollah out BEFOREHAND that escalated matters.

Let's hope both sides get on board and work together to eradicate Hezbollah, after all, it's in both nations best interests.
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. yes, however
Edited on Fri Jul-21-06 12:01 AM by jsamuel
by resorting to the current action, Israel is doing itself and the region harm. That is more of my point than that they are "right" or "wrong"... that their policy does NOT work and is extremely counterproductive. (and they did not make a real attempt to work with the Lebanon government)
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liberalpragmatist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. Well, the problem with Lebanon taking on Hezbollah before...
... was that it simply wasn't very possible.

Now, I'm sure they can be faulted in various ways, but keep in mind that Israel couldn't crush Hezbollah in 18 years of occupation - Israel, the most powerful army in the ME. How is Lebanon's government, weak, having just emerged from civil war and having just expelled the Syrians, supposed to have disarmed the most powerful force in the country without sinking the country BACK into civil war?

I'll post a couple perspectives from Lebanon on the issue:

The first is from Michael Totten, an American blogger (kind of neo-conish) who has lived extensively in Lebanon and Beirut while traveling the Middle East. I should add that he's generally quite pro-Israel. In this case, however, he is very opposed to the actions of the Israeli government:

... allow me to clarify a few things so (some of you) can stop thinking I've decided Israel is the enemy or that Hassan Nasrallah deserves anything but a headstone or a war crimes tribunal.

Obviously Hezbollah started this and Hezbollah is the main problem. Not only did they drag my second home into a war, the bastards also threatened me personally. So I hardly see the point in telling you what I think about them right about now. I'll get to them later.

I sympathize one hundred percent with what Israel is trying to do here. But they aren't going about it the right way, and they're punishing far too many of the wrong people. Lord knows I could be wrong, and the situation is rapidly changing, but at this particular moment it looks bad for Israel, bad for Lebanon, bad for the United States, good for Syria, and good for Iran.

There is no alternate universe where the Lebanese government could have disarmed an Iranian-trained terrorist/guerilla militia that even the Israelis could not defeat in years of grinding war. There is no alternate universe where it was in Lebanon's interest to restart the civil war on Israel's behalf, to burn down their country all over again right at the moment where they finally had hope after 30 years of convulsive conflict and Baath Party overlordship.

The Lebanese government should have asked for more help from the international community. The Lebanese government should have been far less reactionary in its attitude toward the Israelis. They made more mistakes than just two, but I'd say these are the principal ones.

What should the Israelis have done instead? They should have treated Hezbollahland as a country, which it basically is, and attacked it. They should have treated Lebanon as a separate country, which it basically is, and left it alone. Mainstream Lebanese have no problem when Israel hammers Hezbollah in its little enclave. Somebody has to do it, and it cannot be them. If you want to embolden Lebanese to work with Israelis against Hezbollah, or at least move in to Hezbollah's bombed out positions, don't attack all of Lebanon.

Israel should not have bombed Central Beirut, which was almost monolithically anti-Hezbollah. They should not have bombed my old neighborhood, which was almost monolithically anti-Hezbollah. They should not have bombed the Maronite city of Jounieh, which was not merely anti-Hezbollah but also somewhat pro-Israel.

Israelis thinks everyone hates them. It isn't true, especially not in Lebanon. But they will make it so if they do not pay more attention to the internal characteristics of neighboring countries. "The Arabs" do not exist as a bloc except in the feverish dreams of the Nasserists and the Baath.

> http://www.michaeltotten.com


The second is from a Lebanese blogger at Lebanese Politics Blog: http://lebop.blogspot.com

http://lebop.blogspot.com/2006/07/israel-allow-us-to-take-power-of-our.html

Friday, July 14, 2006
Israel, Allow Us to Take Power of Our Country
Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah claims that Hezbollah's military strategy has changed. They claim they will now attack Israel without restraint.

We believe Nasrallah is not joking when he offers Lebanese up to be slaughtered by Israelis. He offered to make the entire country a target for Israeli bombs.

Nasrallah indirectly insulted Saudi Arabia for their statements against Hezbollah's actions. Calling his militia sons of the Prophet, he is now trying to appeal to anti-semitic, pan-Arabist, Islamists in all Arab and Muslim countries.

The Lebanese government is unable to challenge Hezbollah or join in the fight with Hezbollah. Prime Minister Saniora is now complaining bitterly about Israeli aggression, as he should. However, the government is allowing Hezbollah to decide the fate of the nation.

Friends in Beirut, Saida, Nabatieh, Jounieh, Zahle, Baalbak, Koura, and Tripoli are incredibly afraid.

Hopefully, Israel will not escalate attacks. In fact, Israel should have called for a ceasefire today, but domestic policy probably would not allow it.

Today, and after Nasrallah's speech, the Lebanese government and Lebanese politicians opposing Hezbollah might have been completely castrated. Before this evening, opposing politicians could call Hezbollah reckless and the destroyer of Hariri's legacy. Now, all we have to fear is more destruction from Israel.

Israel would be making a grave mistake to attack areas where Hezbollah militants do not operate. What do they expect now? Do they expect us to rise up in arms against Hezbollah? Do they expect us to re-start the Lebanese civil war?

The National Dialogue and all of the international travel and UN Resolutions were the way we were going about trying to disarm Hezbollah. They are allied with Syria and Iran, countries willing to assassinate prominent Lebanese members of parliament and journalists. Countries willing to support militias. Countries that refuse to join the international community and respect law and order.

Uniformed Syrian troops were in this country just over a year ago. Their intelligence agents are still here. Damascus still coordinates political affairs with its cronies. And their reach goes deep into every aspect of Lebanese life. What do you expect after 30 years of occupation?

If Israel's bombing doesn't stop now, they will only further empower Hezbollah. If any Lebanese politician rises up against Hezbollah, that means civil war. It means that politician will be a target for assassination by Syrian agents. It means that whatever community does rise up against Hezbollah will be massacred because Hezbollah has all the weapons. The other militias were disarmed. Not even the Lebanese military could combat Hezbollah. Hezbollah could probably take on the Syrian military.

ISRAEL! WHAT DO YOU EXPECT? WHAT DO YOU WANT ME TO DO? WAIT FOR YOUR BOMBS!!! I don't support Hezbollah. You're destroying any chance we have of taking power away from Hezbollah.

We aren't supporting them. We didn't vote for them in the first place. We have been campaigning against their weapons for over a year. Even the United States acknowledged that there is no easy way to disarm Hezbollah and that the noose had to gradually tighten.

There's nothing left for you to do here. Attack Syria. Attack Iran. Then, you'll have a more even match. Then, you'll face foes that hate you as much as you hate them.

We just want to be left alone. We've been fighting Hezbollah through words, UN resolutions, and actions, all the while being called traitors, Zionists, and becoming targets of violence.

Israel, the ball's in your court. There's nothing that we can do until you stop. As it stands, Hezbollah won't turn their weapons on us. We'll negotiate with them. Our politicians have already offered to negotiate directly with you to return your soldiers.

We are afraid of you and the destruction you can cause in seconds. Don't doubt that for an instance. But allow us to take power of our country.
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Truthiness Inspector Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. I don't think we disagree
What I am suggesting is that Lebanon ask for international help in getting rid of Hezbollah, instead of asking Israel to stand down. Hezbollah is a common enemy, as I have said many times on various threads tonight.

I think we are actually on the same page here. This discussion is a good and constructive one, and I thank you for that.
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liberalpragmatist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. Sure
It's refreshing here to have a civil give-and-take on this subject right now!
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liberalpragmatist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #15
23. Should Britain have destroyed Sinn Fein?
It's a completely analogous situation; Hezbollah is an armed Lebanese political party with substantial support among Lebanese Shi'as due to their social welfare network.

Trying to destroy Hezbollah is utterly unrealistic; Britain couldn't destroy Sinn Fein; instead, they had to make do with disarming the IRA, which took time and effort.

For the record, I'm not opposed to strikes on Hezbollah, but Israel has effectively submitted all of Lebanon to punishmnent for Hezbollah's transgressions and in the process turning Lebanese anger towards itself, not Hezbollah.
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
34. kick
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. kick
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