i've been trying to find out the history of israel. i knew that back

[catmother]

about 3,000 years ago the jews were called israelites. so it got me wondering. is the israel of history the same israel occupied by the jews now. it looks like the jews have occupied israel for thousands of years.

http://www.science.co.il/Israel-history.asp

[knowbody0]

1. i wonder as much what caused the animosity

between Arabs and Jews and it always comes up religion. ain't that a hoot?

back in the day, the nuns preached to us that the Jews were eternally cursed to wander without a homeland for killing Jesus.

we need to completely outlaw religion if ever we are to evolve.

[still_one]

7. they are both derived from Abraham

Isaac and Jacob came from Abraham's wife which formed the Jewish nation

Ishmael came from Hagar, a slave through Abraham which formed the Muslim nation

Hager acted as a surrogate mother because Abraham thought Sarah could not bear children, even though God had specifically stated that she would. This resulted in a bitter conflict between Ishmael and Isaac, and at Sarah's request Abraham had them sent away

Modern-day Arab peoples recognize that they are descendants of Ishmael, while the Jews, are descendants of Isaac, but BOTH ARE DESCENDED FROM ABRHAM

It was this conflict between Ishmael and Issac that is the foundation for the conflict today

[ninkasi]

28. Well, actually, Issac was Abraham and Sarah's son

and Jacob and Esau were twins born to Issac and his wife Rebekah. The rest of what you said is correct, though, but Jacob was Abraham's grandson, not his son.

[still_one]

35. thanks

[catmother]

8. i was raised catholic and was taught that we had to convert

our protestant friends so they could go to heaven. don't remember too much about the jews.

i agree we should outlaw religion.

[still_one]

12. When I was younger I had a Catholic babysister

who told me because I was Jewish I would end up in hell

I am not sure if that was the Catholic position in the 50's or not, but that is what this babysister told me

[catmother]

15. what a terrible thing to tell a child. but they had us catholics

brainwashed. my catholic school days were from 1946 to 1956. in my second year of catholic high school they told my mom to either take me out or they would expel me. i was so happy to go to public school.

[still_one]

20. I definitely was NOT attacking Catholics by what one person said

just relating what happened in my experience because it scared me at the time. She was just a baby sister, NOT a spokesperson for the Church

I think the Catholic schools are not as harsh today

[catmother]

21. they probably are not as harsh, but i stay away from all religions.

the only one that seems to make any sense is Buddhism.

[Tulum_Moon]

29. Yes. Outlaw all religion

Nothing wrong with that. Where will you put about 87% of the U.S. population?

[sam sarrha]

2. they originally came out of Sumeria, a lot of the bible, Genesis and Noah

are parts of sumerian stories.. and such little parts they filled in the rest over the centuries and attributed them to gOD. but gOD wasnt a part of the origional stories..

[RoyGBiv]

22. Slight correction ...

The god of Abraham wasn't a part of the original stories of which you speak.

And of course similar types of stories are found in a lot of ancient cultures. It was all about finding explanations for how we got here and why does this blasted river we live near run over its banks and kill us all every so often.

[sam sarrha]

31. slight correction, i didn't say Abraham was part of the stories, he brought

a group of followers out of the Sumerian area, his father was an Idol maker and he stoled an idol from his father, the god of prosperity.. and left and went toward egypt because of weather changes and famine.

sorry but Genesis is straight out of sumeria and so is the story of Noah.. there are flood stories in other cultures, but not specifically detailed in comparison to the ark story.

have you seen the documentary's on the history chanel.. on biblical stories.

and mentioning Abraham, today the only people who hear voices from gOD to kill their children are schizophrenic.. so, maybe everything god told him was an Hallucination.. that is why i am a little shy about religion.. Jesus was essentially a Union organizer.. i kinda like him, it is obvious to me that Buddhism was brought along the Old Silk Road thru India, Buddhism had been around for 500 years at that time and during that period it was being spread widely.

Buddhism could, and undoubtedly did, come along the Old Silk Road from India thru Damascus and Palestine was actually the hub of the crossroads where the silk road went north to the caspian sea and south to mecca and west to Chiro..i can not see any other way a village jew in those days could have come up with a philosophy of total compassion and unconditional tolerance, when they stoned their friends and family to death for the slightest of what wouldn't even be a misdemeanor today.

the teachings of Jesus is essentially Buddhism.. i was raised in a church and from the beginning i couldn't figure out why they didn't follow the teaching of jesus, whom they revered as a GOD.

when i finally discovered Buddhism and read the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eight Fold Path.. i finally understood what Jesus was talking about.. it is like he got the book with half the pages missing.

[RoyGBiv]

36. Okay then ...

You were referring to the god of Abraham as not being a part of the original stories, which is true. I referred to this entity as the "god of Abraham" so as to distinguish between the Christian/Jewish/Muslim god and the gods of ancient Sumeria. The gods of ancient Sumeria were indeed very much a part of these stories.

The "slight correction" part is about "original" stories. The Noah story may have come in partial form out of Sumeria. That same story can be found in similar form in many cultures throughout the ancient world, including Asia and the Americas. One reason for the flood story is as I suggested. Ancient civilizations developed near rivers, and these tended to flood.

I don't generally watch History Channel presentations on this period.

I did however study under an individual who did her dissertation on common themes in ancient religions and led a seminar I took on that subject.

[The Magistrate]

3. A Little Clarafication, Ma'am

"Israel" has the original meaning "people of god", and was the general term for the tribes that worshiped the diety Jahweh in the region in the Bronze Age. This confederation split over quarrels of little moment now, with a soiuthern faction known as Judah, and the northern element known as Israel. The northern element was expunged by the Assyrians as a political entity, though the term survived in its original meaning, being used in Judah as well. Judah was later conquered by the Babylonians, and restored by the Persains when Babylon fell to them. The place came under Hellenistic rule in the conquest of Persia by Alexander, and became a portion of the Sellucid Empire when his conquests were divided up by his generals. The Hasmodean revolt against Antiochus was surprisingly successful, and that house conquered most of the former northern area once known as "Israel". Miscalculations brought the Hasmoneans under Roman rule in the latter days of the Republic. Rebellions late in the first and early second centuries of the current era led to the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem and the driving out and killing and flight of a great many Jews by the Roman Empire. Over the subsequent years of Roman rule, succeeded by Arab and Turkish conquest of the area, as well as the Christian invasion of the Crusades, and a brief period of Mongol presencew in the region, a population of Jews remained, but they were only a small fraction of the people in the place. In the early days of modern Zionism, immigration, mostly from eastern Europe, increased the proportion of Jews in the region to roughly a third of its people by the end of the Second World War.

[rug]

4. It wasn't a state for 1800 years before Balfour.

[liberalpragmatist]

5. "Scars of War, Wounds of Peace" by Shlomo Ben-Ami...

... is an excellent history on the subject. It is written by a former Israeli foreign minister and is a very balanced look at the history from a (slightly) pro-Israel standpoint. He does a good job, overall, of explaining the various wars, etc, and the roots of the conflict. Also, as a participant in the Camp David peace talks and in the subsequent failed negotations at Taba, he provides insight into why the negotiations failed.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0195181581/sr=8-1/qid=1153457910/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-1577313-1423844?ie=UTF8

[catmother]

6. thank you. i will order the book.

[liberalpragmatist]

14. Cool! Let me know what you think!

I'd love a PM once you've read it or even in the middle of it. (If you don't, that's fine).

[catmother]

16. i will.

[Nevernose]

9. Does it matter?

Isn't 60 years long enough? The Jews own Israel now, and everybody needs to accept that. That fact is not going to cahnge, ever, regardless of who wants what. The Jews own Israel. They're not going to give it up, and I don't mean "without a fight," I mean "without taking everybody else with me." Whether it's fair or not is irrelevant, that's what we, the UN, the Palestinians, Iran, Syria, Hamas, and Hezbollah have to deal with.

Once that's recognized, everything else is a piece of cake. Historicity doesn't matter anymore.

[catmother]

18. you're probably right about history. i, personally, would like to

learn more just for my own edification.

[dorktv]

23. I was thinking about this as I was reading Six Days of War today.

Israel could conceivably take out Mecca with a nuke if the Arabs ever truly tried to get them out. It would not be nice but faced with utter destruction, would they care anymore? "You may take me out but I will make it impossible for you to continue your faith."

Most of the commentary on NPR says that most of the Arab nations have basically accepted that Israel will always exist so they just want to move on though and this is why they are not happy with Hezbollah.

[blonndee]

10. Catmother, this isn't about land necessarily

but a really good book I read that traces the evolution (with lots of historical context) of the idea of god in what eventually became Judaism, Islam, and Christianity is Karen Armstrong's A History of God. It was especially enlightening to me w/respect to the history of the Israelites, so if you're interested in that sort of thing I think it would be well worth a read.

[catmother]

13. thank you.

[Fleshdancer]

24. I second that

A History of God is a MUST read.

[SoCalDem]

26. maps of antiquity are helpful too.. here's a good link

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/map_sites/hist_sites.html#mideast


an example:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/images_maps.html

[catmother]

11. well many of us will know much more about the region because

of what's happening now. i hope it comes to and end soon.

[knowbody0]

17. it is really liberating to be able to ask these questions

no longer taboo, darkness is lifted, light shines in and peace will grow.

[catmother]

19. i hope for peace -- wonder if the whole world will ever be at

peace. seems like there has been war since the beginning of time.

well it's getting past my bedtime, so goodnight to all of you.

[JDPriestly]

25. The Bible tells much of the story

My understanding: After the fall of the Temple under the Romans (maybe 72 A.D. or round abouts), a large percentage of the Jewish population who had lived in Israel until then fled. Some stayed behind. Some fled to other parts of North Africa. Thus, there were Jewish populations in most of North Africa and Arabic speaking countries. I believe that at one time there was even a large population of Jewish people in what is now Saudi Arabia. Many Jewish people went to Spain. They were integrated into the population -- some because they were forced to convert to Catholicism during the Inquisition. I believe that many Jews fled from Spain during the Inquisition. Many went to other European countries where they were treated very poorly. I believe that they were not allowed to practice certain trades or own land to farm in many places. Eventually they were persecuted. Remember the pogroms in Russia. All of this time, some, even many Jews lived in the area called Palestine/Israel. If you read the Bible, you will know that during the early history of the Jews, they were often conquered and sometimes enslaved and moved around not by their own choice. I believe, however, that there were always many Jews in the area of Palestine/Israel. The area of Palestine/Israel was conquered eventually by the Turks -- and became part of the Ottoman Empire. I believe it remained a part of the Ottoman Empire until around 1917 or so when it became a British Protectorate. I understand that Balfour who was the modern founder of the Zionist movement lived in the latter part of the 19th and early part of the 20th Century. He worked to establish a Jewish state in what is now called Palestine/Israel.

Everyone recalls that, when Allied troops entered Germany, Poland, etc., they discovered the starving, abused prisoners in what we call the "Concentration Camps." Until I saw a documentary on it, it never occurred to me to ask, what happened to the survivors in the period immediately following the "liberation" of those Camps. In fact, many of them had no place to go. They stayed in the camps for about a year or so after the end of the war. The Allies did not believe it would be safe for the Jewish prisoners to return to the countries or the properties or the professions and societies in which they had lived before the war. Many of them went to South America or other places, but the world was not anxious to find safe places for them. Many decided to go to Palestine/Israel -- They had no other place to go. So, they went and established themselves there. As I understand it, they were, at first, welcomed by the Palestinians who later saw them as a threat. I don't know what happened-- perhaps the Palestinians did not realize at first just how many Jewish people would go to Palestine. I believe that many of the Jewish immigrants bought properties. I am unsure about just how much violence was actually involved in establishing the Jewish state. Palestinians say they were evicted from their homes. Jewish people I have talked to say that some evictions and violence took place but that the Palestinians started it. It is kind of a he said/she said thing. At any rate I know that the Germans paid reparations to Israel and that the Palestinians also received much aid. I can say this with certainty because my father was involved in trying to get aid for the Palestinians and was sympathetic to both sides during my childhood.

Remember, at this time, the area was still a British Protectorate in theory. This included both what we know as Jordan, Israel and the part the palestinians claim. Remember also that everything that happened in the last years of WWII and the early post-war years revolved around ending the war. Finding a home for Jewish refugees and compensating them for the property and damages done to them during the war was a huge, huge, important thing at the time -- overwhelmingly important to most of the Western world. Since many Jewish people wanted to go to Israel, it seemed an appropriate solution. The British were, however, reluctant. Some of Roosevelt's top aides were opposed to Israel (I forget the names). Finally, the issue went before the fairly new United Nations. And if I remember correctly the first country to vote to establish the State of Israel was -- you'll never guess -- the USSR. The US and finally, reluctantly, the UK followed. The area that had been the British Protectorate was divided in half. The territory was divided into two parts, one Israel (a Jewish democracy), the other Jordan (an Arabic kingdom). Arabs who wanted to stay in Israel were permitted to stay -- and Arabs are among the members of Parliament today. Many Arabs chose to leave for whatever reason -- and this is in dispute.

People ask now how it is possible that Israel could have been established without the consent of the Palestinians.

Well, Jewish people were always a part of the population there. Then, also, at the time, many countries had empires. The British Empire was still quite large. I remember the day when my teacher announced that Kenya had become and\ independent nation. The French did not leave North Africa until the '50s. Remember the Suez crisis under Eisenhower? The mentality was different. And, Palestine was never an independent state. This may explain part of the problem that Palestine has had in organizing itself to conform with the diplomatic conventions and democratic traditions that we expect of them. This is part of the problem between Palestine and Israel. Israelis have established a government that functions -- you may not always like what it does -- but it is a real government. The Palestinians are not yet practiced in governing themselves in a responsible way. Doesn't mean they can't or won't, but the area was always subjugated by one neighbor or imperial power or the other. It was never an independent state. And actually, I believe, but may be wrong about this, that Jordan contains what might be naturally viewed as "Palestine" and is in fact the closest thing there really is to a Palestinian state even though Palestinians may disagree with me there. It is a stable country, or at least seems to be.

This is, of course, just my understanding of this history. I am not a historian, but I have watched this carefully in my life and lived in some of the European areas from which people went to Israel. Remember. Israelis are from everywhere -- in Europe, even Africa such as Ethiopia and South America. They come from other states in the Middle East also. There was at one time quite a Jewish population in Iraq and in Morocco for example. The history is complex. By the way, I am neither Jewish nor Palestinian.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

32. One Little Addition To Your Narrative

The USSR quickly recognized Israel because most of the founders were socialists. They thought Israel would be a reliable outpost and ally. Eventually they saw more promise with the Arabs.

Bottom line ,the area is complex and both sides have their own narrative.

As someone who looks for common ground I'd prefer my government try to co-opt you before they shoot you. I am pained by the extremists on both sides.

[muriel_volestrangler]

33. On the subject of the establishment of Israel

The area of the British protectorate west of the Jordan was about one third Jewish population, two thirds Arab, by the end of 1946, with Jews concentrated in certain areas, mostly urban - many had immigrated in the previous 40 years, and immigrants rarely become farmers in already settled areas.

The UN proposed a partition forming a Jewish state with about 55% Jewish, 45% Arab and other population; an Arab state about 2% Jewish, 98% Arab and other; and Jerusalem as an international city (pretty much 50-50).

Most of the UN voted for this; most Islamic states (and a few others, such as Greece and India) voted against it; the UK abstained. The Jewish population of the area, nearly all finding themselves in the part with a majority of Jews, accepted it; the Arabs didn't. When Israel was declared as a state, the neighbouring Arab states invaded. Israel fought more successfully, and enlarged its area (taking the northern section of the 'Arab Palestinian state' completely, and significant parts of the West Bank and Gaza areas, getting half way into Jerusalem). Jordan claimed the remainder of the West Bank, and eastern Jerusalem, as its territory, and Egypt claimed the Gaza strip. Many Arabs fled their homes, from both the original Jewish state and the enlarged version; whether this was more due to threats and violence, or Arab propaganda about that, it may never be possible to know.

'Palestine' referred, before 1947, to the area west of the Jordan - and did so in Roman times, the name probably deriving from the Philistines, who lived roughly in the current area of the Gaza strip. Jordan did, however, grant Jordanian citizenship to the West Bank Palestinians; and when Israel took control of that area in 1967, many fled to Jordan (and over 300,000 are still there in part refugee camps, part shanty towns).

[EFerrari]

27. There is a great book, "O, Jerusalem" that covers

the time just before and just after the partition of Palestine.

I don't remember how it treated the Palestinians because I read it when I was 19. Probably not well. But, it does document a great deal of the history of that period and gives you a sense of the stakes for the Jewish community in Palestine at that moment. History books are always written from a viewpoint that we might take with a pillar of salt.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0671662414/sr=1-1/qid=1153463712/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-0959771-3308128?ie=UTF8&s=books

[Douglas Carpenter]

30. 2 books with 2 different perspectives

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/0679744754.01._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_AA240_SH20_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg
A History of the Zionist-Arab Conflict, 1881-2001 by Benny Morris

Benny Morris -Ben-Gurion University of the Negev in Be'er Sheva - arguably Israel's most prominent historian of the Arab and Israeli conflict --

I would add that Dr. Morris is an ardent Zionist and his book, Righteous Victims: A History of the Zionist-Arab Conflict, 1881-2001, is very much an apologias for Israel and Zionism. Nonetheless Professor Morris, while acting in the spirit of serious and critical scholarship, attempts to dispel many assumptions which his scholarly work has lead him to believe are historic misinterpretations.



Amazon link:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0679744754/ref=sr_11_1/104-2240026-0639147?ie=UTF8
________________

For a non-Zionist (one might say sympathetic to the Palestinians)recently updated history of the Arab/Israeli conflict by an Israeli historian -- Haifa University's Ilan Pappe's work -- A History of Modern Palestine: One Land, Two Peoples is very good.


A History of Modern Palestine: One Land, Two Peoples by Ilan Pappe

link:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0521683157/104-2240026-0639147?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=283155

________________

also for some background on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict I would highly recommend listening to this debate between Former Israeli Foreign Minister Shlomo Ben-Ami and Professor Norman Finkelstein which aired on Democracy Now.

to listen online or download or read transcript - link:

http://www.democracynow.org/finkelstein-benami.shtml


.

[Squeech]

34. Another book recommendation

A Peace to End All Peace, by David Fromkin

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=br_ss_hs/104-0651853-1663165?platform=gurupa&url=index%3Dstripbooks%3Arelevance-above&keywords=A+peace+to+end+all+peace&Go.x=15&Go.y=9

The theme of this book is that the reason the Middle East is so fucked up is that, between the armistice that ended the shooting in World War I and the treaty that actually ended it, every one of the combatant governments fell and was replaced by its ideological opposite, which proposed policies that were opposed to the policies they were all supposed to be fighting for. And these new policies were written into the Treaty of Versailles.

So, for example, Winston Churchill had propounded the Balfour Declaration during the war, committing Great Britain to the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine. But by Versailles, Churchill was out of office, and the new government didn't think the Jewish state was such a good idea. And while they couldn't explicitly repeal Balfour, they didn't take any positive steps toward implementing it-- and they appointed a vicious anti-Semite to be the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, the head Moslem cleric in Palestine.