Does Lebanon have a right to defend itself?

[CuteNFuzzy]

Should they start bombing Israel back? Would that be justified? Bomb Israeli roads, neighborhoods and bridges? Take out civilian infrastructure?

Kill 10 civilians for every 1 IDF soldier?

Should they go after "Labour strongholds"?

Would the U.S. govt unanimously approve of bombings and killings of hundreds of Israelis?

Some things to think about.

[The Magistrate]

1. Certainly It Does, Sir

Every country, every people, and every person and living creature has that right. The government of Lebanon is quite free, if it chooses, to engage in war-fare against Israel in the present situation....

[blonndee]

4. Wow, Magistrate, I'm surprised to see you taking this position.

I just wish it were as simple as that, as I'm sure you do as well.

[The Magistrate]

13. To The Best Of My Ability, Ma'am

My practice is to apply the same standard to all parties. This leads me, among other things, to the conclusion the Middle East conflict, taken as a whole, is not marked by tremendous excesses on either side, but is pretty much a garden variety thing, of pretty small scale by historical standards. The habit of exaggeration so many employ, including real participants, in speaking of it, is its most striking and unique characteristic, and it complicates the matter immensely. Language guides action and reaction, and people come to wrestle with phantoms of their own creation....

[blonndee]

24. I appreciate your applying

the same standard to all parties. That seems to be missing here.

And I know your position has been largely antithetical to my own; still, your commentary adds a lot to the discussion.

[blonndee]

2. Well, anyone who is attacked

has a right to defend itself. And I mean REALLY attacked, which is a matter of debate here.

I do not think that ANYone has the right to collective punishment, and if civilians are being killed 10 to 1, I would question whether or not civilians are indeed the targets, especially if the "targeters" claimed to have superior technology and don't MEAN to kill civilians.

I think numbers don't mean a whole lot except to indicate which side is more powerful. Often the more powerful are the ones who justify the above--collective punishment.

As far as your question, "Would the U.S. govt unanimously approve of bombings and killings of hundreds of Israelis?"

Of course not. That's not the "American Way." I wish the American Way didn't support the killings of anyone, but that's not the case, unfortunately.

[tocqueville]

3. Lebanese defense minister: Army will fight ground invasion

By Haaretz Service and News Agencies

Lebanon's army, which so far has sat on the sidelines of the violence raging in the country, will fight an Israeli ground invasion, Defense Minister Elias Murr said on Al-Jazeera television Thursday.

"The Lebanese army - and I stress - the Lebanese army will resist and defend and will prove that it is an army that deserves respect," he said.

In most of the previous Israeli attacks, including in 1978 and the 1982 invasion in which Beirut was occupied, the Lebanese army largely stayed out of the fighting.

Some 20 Lebanese soldiers have been killed in strikes on their bases during the Israeli bombardment of Lebanon

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/741100.html

[TomInTib]

5. It is their country.

Same as your back yard.

[Selatius]

6. Shooting down invading warplanes is within Lebanon's right.

I believe the Lebanese Army could conceivably deploy anti-aircraft artillery to attempt to shoot down invading Israeli warplanes, but that's probably the extent of Lebanon's response is going to be. The Lebanese bombing Israeli roads, bridges, power stations, gas stations, fuel depots, airports, seaports, and other civilian infrastructure inside Israel for what is happening now would be as wrong as Israel doing the same to the rest of Lebanon for the actions of Hezbollah.

Lebanon is not within right to retaliate in kind by destroying Israeli infrastructure. There is a difference between legitimate self-defense and measured retaliation as well as disproportionate retaliation.

[Behind the Aegis]

7. Of course they have the right to self defense,...

...but it might make more sense to join with the Israelis and expel the Hizb'allah terrorists from their borders.

[Selatius]

8. If that was the consensus in Lebanon, but there is no consensus

Views on Hezbollah are all over the spectrum from anger and hatred to sympathy with Hezbollah. Further complicating matters is Lebanon's ethnic/religious make-up. If Druze or Christian groups came out and demanded Hezbollah disarm, it might provoke a confrontation with Shi'ite groups and Sunni groups that are pro-Hezbollah. Likewise, there could be Shi'ite and Sunni groups who are also against Hezbollah as well. It would be a messy scenario that could easily lead to bloodshed between the militias. People there do not want to repeat the civil war.

[Behind the Aegis]

10. Consensus

For the most part, everything I saw in the first days of the conflict, most Lebanese were very much against the Hizb'allah terrorists. The Lebanese I know here, with family still in the region and country, despise Hizb'allah. However, you are correct that this is a very delicate area. I think it would depend on how it was marketed to the Lebanese people. They have been occupied by Israel, by Syria, and now, by Hizb'allah (by proxy). If it was explained they now have the opportunity to rid themselves of all occupiers, that might band them together, even if with the Israelis for the short-run.

[CuteNFuzzy]

14. Interesting ...

So, you are in favor of people banding together with a common goal of ridding themselves of occupiers?

[Behind the Aegis]

18. Not at all interesting...

...I very much support an independent Palestine and Lebanon. But what is happening in Lebanon and what is happening in Gaza and the West bank are two different things.

[CuteNFuzzy]

19. Interesting to me

as I get to know people here, each one with differing perspectives

[Behind the Aegis]

23. Sometimes, things are not what they seem.

Like any person (or issue), I am more complex than most would like to admit here.

[Selatius]

15. Yes, but the bombing has to be factored into the equation now as well

That is true; for the longest time most wanted Hezbollah to disarm, but on the same token, nobody was willing to risk another civil war just to disarm them. Lebanon's government was either unable or unwilling or both to do anything about Hezbollah. They probably feared doing so would rip apart the government at the seams.

I would say if Israel continues to bomb civilian infrastructure, it will force the Lebanese government to act, but they may not react in a manner Israel wants them to act. They could easily choose the path of least resistance and mobilize the Lebanese Army to fight off an IDF invasion if it comes to that as opposed to confronting Hezbollah and risking a civil war.

The consensus could rapidly approach the point where anger at Israel for bombing civilian infrastructure across Lebanon and killing over 300 civilians far outweighs anger towards Hezbollah for provoking the current events. It is a very dangerous calculation on Israel's part.

[Behind the Aegis]

20. This is where an international force is needed.

Israel is a convenient scapegoat for Hizb'allah, of course, the current bombing of Lebanon is not helping at all. However, to have other countries come in and help the weak Lebanese government and military purge Hizb'allah would benefit Lebanon and Israel.

[Selatius]

25. Yes, but the UN is probably useless at this point

Such an event requires action on the part of the UN Security Council, but Bush has signaled that Israel has a window of opportunity of roughly one more week to continue operations before he will weigh in. He, whether we like it or not, holds veto power.

Lebanon could already be forced off the deep end after another week, and we do not want that.

[Behind the Aegis]

27. The UN, but what about NATO?

The UNSC is hopelessly anti-Israeli, so the first thing is for them to act in good faith and chastise BOTH sides (Israel and Lebanon) and condemn Hizb'allah and any member nation that supplies them. If the Lebanese government called for a condemnation of Hizb'allah in the UNSC that would not be blocked, and a workable plan might emerge. Of course, this is all hypothetical and "best guesses."

[CuteNFuzzy]

29. Annan statements you may have missed

"Both the deliberate targeting by Hezbollah of Israeli population centers with hundreds of indiscriminate weapons and Israel's disproportionate use of force and collective punishment of the Lebanese people must stop"

"Hezbollah's actions are deplorable"

Israeli soldiers "must be released as soon as possible"

source

[Behind the Aegis]

32. I know that.

I am not sure what you are getting at with that bit of information.

[Selatius]

31. NATO may be it, but there must be a ceasefire really soon to stop events

Lebanon's government is going to be forced to make a decision about what to do from all sides inside Lebanon very soon, and I would say it is best to take off the pressure before they set the course because the likelihood that Lebanon's decision turns out to be a miscalculation is too high for my comfort. Turkish troops should serve as the vanguard of the peacekeeping force. They are a familiar face in the region and should be seen in a different light than a force comprised mainly of European troops.

There is still time, but the clock is rapidly winding down.

[Behind the Aegis]

33. I would support a ceasefire...

...however, I don't see Hizb'allah going along with that, especially if they think they are in their death throes. I would be OK with Turkish involvement. Despite their issues with the Kurds, they have actually been good at trying to negotiate the Gaza issue. They are also a democratic and secular government.

[Selatius]

39. I guess if Hezbollah finds out the cease-fire was a ruse to get...

Turkish units in to help the Lebanese Army and walks out of talks before Turkey arrives, we could get the IAF to take the unusual step of providing close air support to Lebanese Army units as a last-resort plan assuming the Lebanese government survives making the decision to fight Hezbollah without splintering apart in civil war. It's terribly high-risk but also high-gain if Hezbollah is defeated.

[The Magistrate]

16. That Potential, Sir

Has unfortunately probably been dispelled by the Israeli aerial campaign. Pressuring people is a very delicate operation, and frequently miscalculated. That seems to have been the case here.

[Behind the Aegis]

21. Perhaps so...but does it hurt to still try?

I think there is still hope to be salvaged from this "escapade." However, it will take more than just the Israelis and the Lebanese. Pressure also has to be put to Iran and Syria to stay the Hell out of it.

[The Magistrate]

28. They Are Committed, Sir

This is the uncomfortable period when the stake is already down and the ball is clacking about on the spinning wheel....

[Behind the Aegis]

30. One can continue to hope, no?

[The Magistrate]

35. Mr. Hope, Sir

Provides most of the capital behind the well-known firm of Dewey, Cheatham, and Howe....

"Better to be pleasantly surprised than bitterly disappointed."

[Behind the Aegis]

36. Ok, mom!

LOL!

Your quote is something my mom says! And, I love the Three Stooges/Loony Tunes law firm joke! :)

Pandora's Box has been opened, but we all know who is still in there...HOPE! Let her out!

[rman]

41. Hezbollah has a minority presence in Lebanese parliament

"consensus" does not mean that everyone has the same opinion, but rather that a majority has the same opinion. It looks very much like a majority in Lebanon does not even support Hezbollah as a political movement, presumably even fewer support its terrorist actions.

[saracat]

9. You are joking right? Israel would never trust them.

It is too bad though. They cannot trust each other and everyone loses. Sigh.

[Behind the Aegis]

11. I don't know that to be true.

I think, for the sake of peace, at least it should be given the 'ol' college try.'

[blonndee]

12. I actually agree with you on this

although I have disagreed with you before. I wish that all sides could come together and come up with a workable plan. There is no way any "peace" will result without cooperation. HOW to go about this is the question.

[Behind the Aegis]

26. "HOW to go about this is the question."

Simply, there has to be an international coalition. It has to be able to multi-task and help the Lebanese government and military, as well as politically apply pressure to Iran and Syria for their role in the events, as they unfold.

[blonndee]

34. Again, I agree with you.

But I also believe that Israel, just like her Arab "brothers" must be willing to join in this coalition and enter into such an agreement willingly and with an ear to listening. I think this is very possible, as there has already been widespread condemnation against Hezbollah for this action. To me, an ignorant observer, there does seem to be a chance here to make some sort of peace.

[Tesha]

45. Last time I checked, Hezbollah was a part of their government, elected...

Last time I checked, Hezbollah was a part of their government,
duly elected to office. Israel might as well expel Likud and
the rest of the hard-liners who are blowing up Lebanon.

Tesha

[Truthiness Inspector]

17. Lebanon is not Hezbollah

Hezbollah, a terrorist group, is rooted inside Lebanon.

Your premise is not even valid, sorry.

Hezbollah is the enemy of both countries, and no, Hezbollah does not have any rights to defend themselves, under any international laws.

[The Magistrate]

37. It Is Quite Valid, Ma'am

Israel has certainly violated the borders of Lebanon, and even killed Lebanese military personnel and civilians. The government of that country has a perfect right to respond with what military power is at its disposal.

[rman]

40. "Lebanon is Hezbollah" is not the premise of the OP

Rather it is that Israel is bombing Lebanon. It is about Lebanon's right to defend itself, not about Hezbollah's right to defend itself.

[sandnsea]

22. Hizbullah is attacking Israel

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3279029,00.html

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=haifa&btnG=Search+News

[brmdp3123]

38. Like Ron White said...

They have the right, but they don't have the ability.

[CuteNFuzzy]

42. I guess one question for me is

If Lebanon starts bombing Israel in the same manner Israel is now attacking Lebanon, killing 10 civilians to every 1 IDF soldier, would anyone here approve of that or spend their time justifying those actions?

[cynatnite]

43. Sure...just as Israel has a right to defend itself...

That's been the case for many decades now. They ALL are defending themselves.

[CuteNFuzzy]

44. See I take the opposite outlook

I don't think much of this can be categorized as "defense" at all, and that goes for both sides. Whether it's targeting fleeing refugees the way Israel has, or if it's randomly sending rockets off towards Israeli targets the way Hizballah does, it's not defense. These are aggressive, criminal acts to be condemned (not unconditionally supported the way the U.S. govt does).

(Note I am not saying that Israel or anyone else does not have a right to defend itself)