Anti-Semite? (edited for clarity)

[hiaasenrocks]

That phrase is being thrown around a lot, at people who oppose Israel's action in Lebanon.

For those of you who make that accusation, how are you determining that people are anti-Semitic? Does someone have to use certain words or phrases? Or do you whip out that label for everyone in opposition to Israel's policy?

Just curious.

EDIT: I'm mainly asking for the opinion of those who have called other DU'ers anti-Semitic.

[dipsydoodle]

1. Actually means

Anti - Arab. Context seems to have changed over the years.

[cali]

17. Actually it does not.

Antisemitism (ususally written as one word) was a term coined by Wilhelm Marr in 1879 to encompass his anti-jewish philosophy. It has always been used, in the academic world and the world of journalism to refer to exactly what Marr coined it to reflect; anti-Jewish animus. The argument made in certain circles, that because Arabs are semites, the word is incorrect, is rejected by those who know anything about philology.

[Ignoramus]

40. Language isn't created by philologists

Philologists study the usage of language. They aren't "authorities" on language.

Language is fluid. In effect when you communicate you are saying, here are the meanings I give to these symbols to represent this idea. The meanings are variable.

Arguments about language are absolutely valid. A valid point is being made by saying that anti-semite means bias against people who are semites.

[cali]

41. Exactly they study the usage of language

that's their area of expertise. The person i responded to claimed that the word originally denoted a bias against Arabs. I corrected the poster. Languages are fluid, and it's certainly possible that the meaning of antisemite could change. I wouldn't bet the bank on it, as it's meant only one thing in common usage, in many languages, for over 130 years. in addition such a change would be clumsy. What would people mean when they used it?

[Ignoramus]

42. anti-semite would mean racism against semitic people

okay, presumably you are right that antisemite has commonly been used to mean anti-jewish. The point is it is worthwhile to argue that anti-semite means against semites, especially because the phrase is so often used baselessly, it appears to me.

The argument about the word is good and meaningful. Changing the meaning of the word doesn't change anything in other sentences that make use of the other meaning of the word.

[cali]

43. aarrrgh, me matey

You may just have to walk the plank. I don't mean to be pedantic, but your argument just doesn't work. I mean, what the hell does this mean?

"Changing the meaning of the word doesn't change anything that make use of the other sentences that make use of the other meaning of the word."

[MnFats]

2. keep in mind...both Arabs and Jews of the Middle East..

...are Semitic people....if you're bigoted against one, logic says you must be bigoted against the other.....it gets convoluted, huh?

[warrens]

3. Let's put it this way

If Israel were to announce that it planned to nuke Egypt back to the stone age tomorrow, and you said "This seems unwise and a bit heavy-handed," that would be clear evidence of your hatred of Jews.

[cali]

26. That's completely unfair.

Please see my post #13 and then say that to me.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hiaasenrocks]

6. I hope you're not calling me a troll.

I'm asking an honest question. That label gets thrown around pretty freely.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hiaasenrocks]

9. Okay, thanks. Things are kind of tense around here. Just making sure. n/t

[jonnyblitz]

23. nobody pays much attention to the accusations here anymore

there have been some actual instances of anti-semitic comments made but nobody paid much attention because it was lost in the trazillion other false charges that were flung out there to shut down debate. people stop listening after awhile. People will claim they hit alert on the comments yet the comments remain and they wouldn't if they were truly bigoted comments.

[The Magistrate]

36. That Is Quite True, Sir

We take a very hard line against expressions of bigotry in any direction here, and have removed a number of posts for both bigoted expression against Arabs and Islam, and against Jews and Judaisim, that have been made in heated discussons of events in the Middle East. Bigoted expression is against the rules of Democratic Underground.

We also take a very dim view of comments accusing an opponent in this debate of being a bigot, as that is a violation of the rules, even if accurate. The proper course for a member is not to make an accusation in the forum, but to send us an alert on the comment he or she feels is an expression of bigotry.

We also look with some disfavor on people making pre-emptive claims that they will be called a bigot for saying this or that, but just have to go ahead and say it anyway. Comments incorporating that element generally produce heat rather than light, and come under the category of flame-bait.

[cali]

27. And I answered you honestly

in post 13. I thought it was a good question, despite the fact that you feel the term is being used unjustly.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

5. Scrawled signs

that say "Death to the Jews" usually help me determine antisemitism.

[hiaasenrocks]

7. Have you seen that on DU?

Or anywhere in the US?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

19. Nope, not on DU

Yes, in the US. Recent trip to Berkeley, Calif. Saw a lot of them all over the place.

[salvorhardin]

44. Really!?

In Berkeley? Oh, how sad.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

47. Very sad.

Who woulda thunk it? That the far left would have anything in common with white supremists?

[NuttyFluffers]

51. i remember seeing that in berkeley, too

but it was a right-wing fundamentalist of some sort. we get quite a few of those ambling around here, and will join up around any significant group of people just to get their psychosis out. it was easy to figure out because they often listed everyone else under the sun as going to hell or something.

y'know, it's really funny, we get a lot of "pilgrimages" of RW nuts to "save" our area. eventually they end up as ragged as our homeless and just blend in with just any ol' protest around here. they just sneak their way on in, get some cheap exposure. can't really always pick 'em out of a crowd by their pleated dockers, y'know. ;)

when we had gay marriage going on in SF city hall we had vans of out-of-area/out-of-state RW protestors who were just dumped out on the streets and left there for days. it was hilarious, my friends watched them deteriorate into generic homelessness, begging for food to continue their hate-fest. my friends were stepping over abandoned RW protestors every other block at the time; if a homeless person was present they'd get the sympathy instead of the newcomers. quite amusing.

don't know what your experience was, so i'll just assume it was a LW holding a "death to jews" sign, but in my experience here it's often the other way around. kickin' it at sproul plaza is a riot, you often get a RW nut who attracts a crowd of LW "discussors/screamers" and then the tourists are all wondering just what the hell is going on. and i can't even recall all the times we'd have such hateful things when going to raves, festivals, etc. i suspect it was a, not a plant, but like, a wandering creeper RW nut. they just tend to appear in the strangest places, often all ignored and dejected looking. :)

[rucky]

11. There are more subtle forms of antisemitism...

But I'm not really seeing it on the DU. Most folks here are genuinely for peace.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

20. I agree with you on that.

[salvorhardin]

16. Holocaust revisionism usually helps me determine antisemitism

Stan Goff's HuffPo article is an example of that, even if Goff himself is not antisemitic, he's spreading claims traditionally made by the likes of IHR et. al.

Additionally, claiming the Protocols of the Elders of Zion is fact is usually a good sign you're talking to an antisemite.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion

People supporting New World Order conspiracy theories are generally helping to support antisemitic conspiracy theories, as are people supporting Illuminati conspiracy theories.

Here's a good article by Esther Kaplan on Antisemitism After 9-11.
http://www.publiceye.org/magazine/v16n2/AntisemitismAfter.html

Esther Kaplan's bio: http://www.estherkaplan.com

[TallahasseeGrannie]

24. Absolutely

and when folks do that, I really would like them to tell me where my husband's family went. Because they are gone. One cousin. No aunts, uncles, nothing. Everybody is gone.

[rucky]

10. It's like being called unpatriotic for opposing the Iraq war.

Not that the circumstances of the wars are the same, but personal attacks between proponents and opponents of (whichever) war is as old as the hills.

[peacetalksforall]

12. Distinctions are always getting pushed aside.

Moslem-Jew equates.
Lebanon Israel Iran Iraq equate.
Arab - geographically distinct.
Semite - Historical race distinction - crosses borders and religions.

Few in Israel are Semites. Say anti-semite and it means being against a limited number of peoople in Israel and many in nearby countries and all those who have migrated out of the area of the original land of Semites.

The words are used to describe anyone who disapproves of Jews anywhere - very unfortunate.

Why not just say anti-Jew?

I'm not anti-Jew, anti-Semite, anti-Arab, anti-Moslem.

I am anti-Hezbollah, Hamas, al Queda, PNAC and I am anti- the leaders of Israel who plan and execute with PNAC - all the rogue terrorists and the formal leaders of Israel.

All the rest of us are just innocent citizens of countries whose leaders are helpless, it seems.

And I resent Joe Leiberman who calls Dems who are against him "anti's". Just anti's.

[cali]

13. I'll answer.

I've applied that word four times in the past week or so: When someone referred to Lieberman as 'jew-boy', when someone called Bob Dylan a "heeb", when another person accused Israel of having known about 9/11 and warning Jews to stay away, and when someone stated that the "jews had forced the UN to partition Palestine".

But I've thought it on several occasions and not used the label. I think it when I see people using Jews and Israelis interchangeably, when people put up threads in which the subtext is irrefutably biased, such as the one Skinner called "disgraceful and an embarrassment, last night, and on various other occasions.

And here's the funny thing: I am critical of Israel. I've condemned many of the actions Israel's taken, far before the current crisis erupted. Unlike most DUers I'm a regular on the I/P forum. I firmly believe that there's a lot to criticize about Israel and that their treatment of the Palestinians, not just through brutality, but through humiliation, is shameful.

Just as antisemite shouldn't be thrown out for mere criticism of Israel, or even for opposing the existence of the country, the accusation of over using the term should be carefully considered.

There is anti-semitism on the left. It shouldn't flourish here.

*edited to add that all of the posters I referred to in my first paragraph, but one, were DUers with 1000+ posters.

[thinkingwoman]

18. I wish we could recommend individual posts

I would definitely recommend this one.

Thank you for such a sane, sensitive and spot on response.

I have been reading and posting here at DU for a very long time and I am incredibly disturbed by what I have read on these boards over the past week. I think, in fact, it may finally drive me away from these boards entirely.

I commend the mods for their efforts, and I commend posters who can and have been discussing this issue rationally. But I have seen too many hateful and yes, anti-semitic comments high-fived by the hundreds to stomach.

I apologize for going on so long about this. I really only wanted to post my appreciation for your post.

[Mass]

21. Best post I have seen in a while on DU- I wished I could recommend it.

[jonnyblitz]

30. I will vouch for you since I was around for a few of the instances.

and I trust your judgement pretty much on the ones I didn't see that you mention. Where we differ is that I believe the charge IS seriously overused probably more than you do based on our differing personal subjective views/experiences on here. :hi:

[cali]

33. Thanks, Jonny

I have also seen it used when not warrented, but rarely see someone actually called an antisemite. Still, hinting at it, when it's undeserved is not much better than saying it out and out. I do want to add that i feel people fling either antisemite or I'm going to be called an antisemite for much the same reason- to shut down their opponent.

[Behind the Aegis]

34. BINGO!

"I do want to add that i feel people fling either antisemite or I'm going to be called an antisemite for much the same reason- to shut down their opponent."

I'll add further, that some will insinuate you have called them an anti-Semite, when you clearly called them anti-Israeli. So, IMO, it appears that it is not just the Jews that like to conflate "Jew" and "Israel."

[jonnyblitz]

38. yup I agree with THAT , too. I probably have even done it

in the heat of debate which would make me a (gasp) hypocrite. I can admit when I am wrong. I can be quite often. the preemptive "I guess am going to be called an anti-semite" is what I am referring to if i am being vague.

[H2O Man]

48. Good answer. n/t

[uppityperson]

14. perjorative term that is used to denote bigotry, used in error oftena

It is a perjorative term (negative insulting term) that is used too often when someone says something against someone or place that is Jewish.

I have been called anit-semitic for not blindly supporting Israel in whatever they do whenever wherever, and in the past for telling someone they were a jerk. Yes, this person was Jewish, but that had nothing to do with jerkdom. And yes, I will not blindly support any country all the time whatever.

Finally, not all who have thrown this term out on DU are trolls.

[Mass]

15. DU right now is pretty much in the hands of the flamebaiters of both sides

Whoever wants to stand for a reasonnable stand is going to be called both anti-semitic and pro-Zionist at the same time.

[CuteNFuzzy]

22. I think this is an exaggeration (although I could be wrong)

I joined DU.com recently and since then almost all the discussion I have got myself involved in has been regarding the attacks on Lebanon. And my view is very critical of Israel's aggression. But I have yet to come across any person calling me anti-semite or even attacking me personally. There is one person who got upset and called me unreasonable, but that's been it. And in none of the discussions I have participated in have I seen the term used towards anyone.

So maybe I am just not noticing it but really think this is not that big a problem here. The discussions I have been in have definitely been heated, but for the most part VERY civil, especially compared to some other message boards I have been to. (This is by far the most civil forum I have joined)

[cali]

29. Good post

I often disagree with what you have to say,(hey, I may even have been the person that called you unreasonable) but I think this is a scrupulously fair assessment of your own experience.

[dave123williams]

25. It's this simple:

Being pro-Hezbollah makes one a contemptible anti-Semite. Period.

They're quite on the record about wanting to raze Israel to the ground, they don't care for Jews and that's evidenced in constant suicide bombings, rocket attacks, and the kidnapping and murder of IDF soldiers. This, after Israel has been out of South Lebanon for 20 years, after they gave the Palestenians the West Bank and Gaza.

I heard an interview with a Hezbollah MP yesterday who ADMITTED to the BBC that this whole thing was about baiting the Israelis in to attacking, that this was their purpose in the kidnappings, in order to have political opinion in Lebanon congeal around his party. When asked about the cost to his own civilians, he poo-poo'ed it saying 'the day after tomorrow, all of Lebanon will feel as I do.'

If you want to side with a piece of human filth like that, be my guest, but don't expect my support or encouragement. Do expect me to label you an anti-Semite, which is *exactly* what you'd be in siding with them.

Got it?

[cali]

28. Honestly

I don't think there are more than a handful of people at DU who support H'zbollah, and I don't think that's a good equation; there are people who point to H'bollah's social services work, are those people antisemitic? I just don't see it.

[Behind the Aegis]

35. here's something for you to ponder...

...If the Klan or the Aryan Nation were to suddenly start doing social services work, say here in New Orleans, would that some how legitimize who they really are? Wouldn't it still be a safe bet that anyone from those groups are racists?

It is not to say that there are members of Hizb'allah (or Hamas, for that matter), who have forsaken terrorism and are genuinely interested in doing good work for their people, as opposed to just hating Israel and Jews. But, how do you tell the difference? Wouldn't it be more prudent to go under a name change and a different banner?

You are right, though. There is not an overwhelming groundswell of support for Hizb'allah here at DU. However, just as we are called Israeli apologists, there are MORE than a handful that would fit the bill as Hizb'allah apologists! So, is an "apologist" and a "supporter" any different? (That is an honest question.)

[bloom]

32. "If you want to side with a piece of human filth like that"

I think it's odd - that people can be so concerned about people calling others anti-semitic and yet would not care - would not see it as bad to see a group of Semites as "human filth".

It shows the extent to which the propaganda has been effective.


I see all the people as people. Too bad you don't. I guess we need a pejorative word for that.

[dave123williams]

49. Wow. Remind me never to have you next to me in a life or death situation.

I hope it's comforatble there in your fat, stuffed chair.

The only thing you're ever going to find in the middle of the road, is yellow lines and dead armadillos.

[rman]

50. Then again, who is pro-Hezbollah?

According to some it's anyone who does not support Israel's current military actions on Lebanon.

[bloom]

31. I thought

that is was over the top that someone accused someone of being anti-semitic because she thought the Goff article (discussing the roots of Zionism) was a good one . She explained that her husband is an anti-Zionist Jewish person.

The implication at that point is that anti-Zionist people (Jews or not) are not allowed to be anti-Zionist or they will be called Jew haters. Some people might see Chomsky that way - as a self-hating Jew. While that point of view is out there -I don't think it belongs here.


On edit:

Another thing - there are things that I would have no idea that are supposed to be associated with anti-semitism - which someone who has studied it would know. In those cases - like the word ilk - the polite thing to do - is to explain why it is offensive - not go off calling people anti-semitic.

I also maintain that the word anti-semitic makes no sense. It implies racism - yet the word is not being used to describe a race (and people complain if you want to use it that way). Anti-Jewish makes much more sense.

[The Magistrate]

39. Definitions Of Race, Ma'am

Have changed over the years. At the time the term Anti-Semitism was coined, the term race was often used interchangeably with the word nationality. One will often see in the latter nineteenth century reference to the Gallic or German or Slavic or Roman or Anglo-Saxon races, which no one would employ today. In the conceptual frame-work of that time, Jews were seen as a distinct "race", or in other words, "nationality", and this was held to supersede the religious element: a person was in most eyes a Jew not because he or she believed in the tenets of Judaism, but by virtue of descent, whether he or she believed in the tenets of Judaism or not.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

45. I Have Always Been Puzzled By The Loose Definition Of Judaism

But one can be a Jew today and a Muslim tomorrow but one can never be white today and black tomorrow.

But then race is an artificial construct as well.

[The Magistrate]

46. It Is An Odd Item, Sir

Originally, "nationality" and "religion" were not truely seperate concepts. Each people had its own dieties, and all members of the tribe worshipped them, and no one else did, although of course if you were a foreigner in a strange land it was wisest to show respect to the local powers, physical and otherwise. Judaism is in some ways a survival of this ancient attitude into the modern era, as the old imperium of China preserved ancient patterns of governance into the twentieth century. Part of the doctrine of Judaism is the claim of descent from the common ancestor Abraham, which makes it a people, a biological entity, as well as a religion, though of course the matter is complicated by the existance of conversion to Judaism, which was more common than is commonly realized, particularly in the Meditteranean world of the Alexandrian and latter Roman Republic periods, at which time Judaism was an actively prosetylizing faith. Christianity and Islam are essentially religions of conversion, and their spread was established by the their wide acceptance, voluntarily or otherwaise, by persons who were born into some other religious conviction. So the concept of religion has, in the modern era, become quite seperate from the concept of a nation or a people, as a general thing.

[Behind the Aegis]

37. Response...

I have not called anyone at DU an anti-Semite. I have, however said what they have written was anti-Semitic or the article they posted or the author of said article. Usually, I don't even do that, if I think something is anti-Semitic, I hit "alert" to have the filth purged from the board (and I encourage others to do the same).

What is actually being "thrown around" are false charges of being called an anti-Semite, when it has not happened. Go through many of the threads, it is often the non-pro-Israeli poster who is claiming victim-hood and will be the first to introduce the word "anti-Semite" into the discussion. It is their way of trying to stifle the pro-Israeli group (and sometimes the neutral crew).

I think a more fair question would be: "For those of you who make that accusation (that someone has called you an anti-Semite), how are you determining that people are doing so when it hasn't been said? Does someone have to use certain words or phrases? Or do you whip out that charge for everyone in support of Israel?