HELP: My friend's Wife is becoming a Fundie

[The Sushi Bandit]

Calvary Chapel is her church and he is worried that she will get to the point that she will try to convert him and other stuff.

He needs thoughtful advice on the right way to deal with this very important issue in his life. He loves her dearly but it a little scared about it all.

I'll share your thoughtful comments with him later today.

Peace

[blue cat]

1. He should tell her of his concerns now. n/t

[Norquist Nemesis]

2. Sadly, if he's just now worried it may be too late

Ask him if she's given any indication of leaving him or telling him she can't live with him...even the slightest. If that's the case, his options are very limited. Give him information on cults and how to deal with them, or (better yet) put him in touch with someone who knows how to deal with cults.

[acmavm]

Oh dear, give the poor guy my sympathy. My daughter is

married to one of those. He can whip out a 'commandment' for everything anyone does that displeases his ass. But I notice that if one runs counter to any of his weird notions and misguided ideas it can be conveniently forgotten.

Thou shalt not lie and kill (or support killing in his case) are two of the biggest.

[Taverner]

3. Fuck I don't know what to say

Fundies are much like drug addicts. You can't reason with them, they are willing to sacrifice everything including the ones they love, friends and family for their "drug", and they don't quit until they hit rock bottom.

All I can say is support your friend during this time - he'll need it.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

4. If she's not too far gone,

he might wish to take her to a Dances of Universal Peace. Basically, they are a form of moving meditation or "body prayer" that honors ALL the world's spiritual traditions. They employ simple dance steps and I've even danced with people totally blind and people in wheelchairs. If you are in Hawaii, which I assume from the flag, there are Dances done there. They can change one's outlook. Best of luck.


http://www.dancesofuniversalpeace.org

has more information, but the site isn't always up to date as to who is leading dances where.

[DURHAM D]

5. I am currently reading John Dean's new book.

Your friend may want to pick up a copy - it may help him to understand his wife and her new friends.

[hlthe2b]

6. cult deprogrammer?

Sorry, I'm not trying to be flippant, but there is a psychological phenomenon going on that shares some similarities.....

[dysfunctional press]

7. tell your friend to start with this website-

http://www.adultfriendfinder.com/

[dave123williams]

8. Hold her head underwater 'till she comes around to your way of thinking.

Fundies respect that.

[barb162]

40. LOL

so right

[n2doc]

9. Maybe see if he can get her to change churches?

Long shot, probably, but maybe he can say "Honey, I just don't feel comfortable going to Calvary. Could we try both going to a (pick moderate type) church instead?" And Keep her from watching the 700 club or other fundie crap on tv, perhaps by distraction with other activities. The key would be to make her feel like these actions were making his marrage stronger...

[longship]

43. Yes, United Church of Christ.

The Congregationalists. Good, non-fundie church.

[NotGivingUp]

10. Religion eliminates critical thinking...which is 'their' goal.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

11. Here's my biggest advice

Don't let her do this alone. Go along with her. You don't want her to be alone with these folks. She needs you! Protect her!

[elehhhhna]

77. EXCELLENT advise. 5 stars.

[Ravenseye]

12. Couple of thoughts

Maybe have him steer her to another church? Have him say that he's not comfortable at that church and have him say why, openly and honestly. Find a less severe church and go with her to that one.

Attacking her, or the offending church, will simply not work. It will just make her defensive. It might be best to try and deflect it with something like...

"Honey I really would like to go to church with you, but I don't like the Cavalry Chapel. I feel very uncomfortable there. Can we try and find a church where we both feel comfortable so we can worship together as a family?

If she refuses that, which seems to me like a very reasonable request, then she's gone...

[Lydia Leftcoast]

13. If she's still not too far gone, give her a copy of

"Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism" by retired Bishop John Shelby Spong.

But if she's too far gone, she will refuse to read anything that is not approved by her church.

[blm]

14. Before she starts reading Left Behind books, she should know that LaHaye

was funded for many years by RevMoon and they had a shared interest in mind control. It's a very ANTI-FAMILY agenda - they are supposed to INCREASE their time with church activities and decrease any time spent with family members who are not believers.

[BuhByeChimp]

15. So he isn't going to church with her?

If he doesn't know what she is being exposed too, he really can't change her mind.

[glitch]

16. Fear is what is motivating her to accept the brainwashing.

If he can help her deal with her fears he will help her fight the programming.

[Norquist Nemesis]

19. Yes, and no

It starts by including her as part of a family. Helpful, loving, generous, supportive, etc. Members are brought wholly into the community. As long as they seek 'guidance', there is no fear.

If they question, however, a veiled threat of being ostracised is shown. In fact, she may have already witnessed it on another member. Questioning and showing independence is the biggest threat to the cult. As long as there's none of that, there's not any fear.

[glitch]

25. I think generalized fear leads people to need "support" in the first place

Then the cult amplifies that fear. Without her own initial fear (of whatever; rapid change, terrorists, plummeting expectations, traffic, loneliness, ridicule, whatever) she wouldn't be as susceptible to them.

[Bonhomme Richard]

17. She is missing something important in her life and.............

my best advice is for your friend to look at their relationship and daily circumstances. There is a void that she is trying to fill. IMHO

[porphyrian]

18. Why'd he marry her and does she know or care that he has a...

...problem with it?

[LouisianaLiberal]

20. Fundamentalists believe that the man is the "decider"

Tell him to attend the service with her a few times, then state unequivocally that this is not the right church for them (if that is the case). Then be sure to attend weekly services at a church of his choosing.

I'm not being flippant. If she has been going to this church for awhile, she will have picked up this notion of the husband as head of the household, whose decisions on important matters must be adhered to.

[readmoreoften]

65. I agree with this 100%. This would be my game plan:

Part of the fundamentalist phenomenon is adherence to rigid gender roles where the women is submissive to the man. This will give him some leverage. Even if he is not a dominant sort of guy, for both of their sakes, he should pretend to be dominant for tactical reasons in the meanwhile. If you don't know what that means, think "loving but stern father figure."

Within the first month to six weeks:

Go to her church, note who is influencing her. When you get back home, tell her that you don't "trust" that particular person. If there are quieter people who like to talk about non-fundie things, say "but I think so-and-so is pretty nice."

Look up a local non-fundie church in the meanwhile, UCC or another liberal church. Talk to the minister, work out a game plan with him. Tell him your concerns.

After 4-6 weeks

Tell the wife, "I just don't like that church. It's a "mega" church. I don't think they teach sound doctrine. I don't think our family can "grow in the Lord" there. (I don't care if he's an atheist. He's going to have to learn to act.) When she gets upset say, I want us to try "X" church. I like the pastor there. (whatever)

Have her meet the pastor so that she feels cared for and welcomed. If the church is welcoming and nice and she meets people that she likes, then when the other church calls them "phoney christians" and whatever nasty things they come up with, Calvary will seem like the nasty, domineering, petty people that they are. They will be insulting people who were kind to her, and that will create some cognitive dissonance in her.

Keep going to that church with her until she is out of danger. Then he should talk to the pastor about a way to ease himself out of the "acting role" he got himself into. Maybe couples counseling through the new church. He should only tell her about his "role", though after she is totally out of the clear and they are laughing about it.

Tell him to be patient and to take it very seriously.

[MamaBear]

21. This could take a long time.

Or she could be done with it tomorrow.

Having been there myself, and having extricated myself (more than once), I would offer these thoughts.

If she is finding herself drawn to this organization, then it is providing her with something that she feels is missing within her life or within herself. How well does your friend actually know her? Do they talk? Does he understand her history? There is some deep, deep longing within her that she feels will be fulfilled by membership in this community. In talking to her, I would not address this directly; rather, I would try to draw her out. What are her dreams and desires? What are her deepest fears? If he can get a handle how the church serves her, he may be able to offer alternatives.

If she is deeply into her God trance, she will tend to answer in formula. He should be aware of her using buzzwords. He should attend church with her to get an ear for what is going around there, so he can be sensitive to the buzzwords, and what they mean to this community of people.

I would recommend that your friend get some professional assistance: not for her, necessarily, but for himself. He will need a guide in talking to her, and he will need a place to vent, especially if he fears abandonment or is already feeling abandoned by her activities.

When he attends her church, have him be on he lookout for the saner members of the congregation. They're often quiet people who take what they need and leave what they don't behind. They can be helpful, if they're interested, in befriending her and serving as an anchor to some sort of reality. He may also want to get a feel for the friends she is making there: are they deeply involved missionary types, or is their participation more relaxed?

Maybe she just wants to be in the choir.

If the church isn't all that bad, let it run its course. Churches are people, after all, and sooner or later she may become disillusioned and disappointed. At that point she may be able to separate. Actually, at that point, she may storm out herself.

They should have an open, honest, businesslike husband-and-wife conversation about finances. All religious organizations rely on financial contributions; some are very aggressive about it. They should have a very clear understanding about where her contribution will be coming from (i.e., if she works, will it be her own money, or will it come from their pooled funds). Once the trance takes hold, people can lose track of how much they are actually handing over, because they do it in bits and pieces (so much for tithe, so much for this or that fund, so much as class fees, so much for literature, etc.) A clear agreement on this point is absolutely essential, and as soon as possible.

My wish for your friends is that they are able to use this as a time of discovery -- not necessary of whatever religion is going around, but of what actually drives them. Because if she feels a deep need for community, or for structure, or to be told what she must/must not do to survive physically or spiritually, she will repeat the cycle until she either settles down in one or she discovers how to get what she thinks she needs (or fears she lacks) in other ways.

You can PM me if you or your friend want more.

Edited for clarity (and typos!)

[renate]

81. wow, what great advice!

I've never been in this situation but I'm really impressed by all the insights in your post.

It seems like this could be a life-altering (for the better) experience for this couple, if they handle it in a way that incorporates these suggestions.

[RedStateShame]

22. The minute she goes into conversion speech, ask her......

....why she's not wearing her burqa.

[sinkingfeeling]

23. Get her to read, at least the first chapter, of 'Stealing Jesus' by Bruce

Bawer. This will work if she has genuine respect (love) for Jesus.

[knitter4democracy]

24. Okay, here's my advice, based on my experience.

First of all, they preach a lot about being "unequally yoked" (which means being married to someone who isn't the same kind of Christian or Christian at all). He is going to start getting pressure, from the pastor to his wife to any of their church friends. There are many husbands and wives who merely attend just to keep the pressure off.

Secondly, he needs to go to church with her, if just so he can know what they're advocating there or preaching. That way, if she brings it up, he can know what she's referring to and be prepared with his own opinion.

Thirdly, he needs to see what's going on in her life that is making her need this kind of community. Calvary Chapel is most likely one of those larger churches that has all sorts of programs and help. Is she getting help with childcare, help with an addiction, a wives support group, or anything like that? She has unmet needs that he probably doesn't even know exist that this place is meeting. That means that they need to sit down and talk through that, and he might have to step up and help more around the house.



Finally, he needs to not try to change her at this point. Taking her anywhere that smacks of another religion will make her uncomfortable and more likely to fight it. If he can find a good church that's a compromise, that's great, but it often doesn't work. If she's made good friends at her church, she's not going to think that attending some other place will be a compromise.

I grew up evangelical, and I even went to an evangelical college. The best answer I have is that she's just going to need time. The more involved she gets, the more she sees, the more he supports her through that, the more likely she is to find out someday that it's not the loving place she thought it was. I hate to say this, but it often just takes time.

[NNN0LHI]

26. Is she currently seeing a shrink and taking psychotropic drugs?

I would start there if she was.

Her shrink might be a fundy?

Don

[The Sushi Bandit]

27. She has seen shrinks and taken anti-depressants

within the last few years. But he said that she had stopped some months ago.

[Swamp Rat]

59. That may be part of the problem.

Get her back on the meds ASAP!

[ken-in-seattle]

76. The mentally ill and the brain damaged are attracted

to fundy versions of any religion. As for results, religion in various flavors, has been helpful to the mentally ill for centuries. The congregation also enjoys the spectacle of "praying out the demons" and the bipolar always give a good show.

Up until recently (the age of effective drugs for some illnesses) religion has produced as good or better results than psychiatry.

Still, if he can get her back on the meds and into a program he might save himself a lot of pain.

My ex got religion and we ended up in a commune in the desert with an ex speed freak minister who knew less about the bible than I did. Made for some interesting bible study "discussions" where he would get frustrated and use the prayer to get back at me with non sequiters lamenting my "misinterpretations"...

Prozac in high doses cured her of the fundy paranoia without destroying her ability to enjoy her religion and ongoing therapy has allowed her to resume a career.

It ain't over until the fat lady drives the bus into a bridge abutment. But it ain't gonna be pretty or easy.













Devout believers are safeguarded in a high degree against the risk of certain neurotic illnesses; their acceptance of the universal neurosis spares them the task of constructing a personal one.
-- Anatole France

[Ilsa]

28. Try to get her to compare whatever progressive ideas she has left

with her fundie church's beliefs and practices. That may help. Also keep her reminded of whether their position on something is really Christ-based or could even remotely look self-centered.

[SoCalDem]

29. He better start watching the checkbook.. Fundies

often "support" their faiths with grocery money..Those slick snake-oil preachers are very good at shaking down the faithful..

[calico1]

30. Based on my experience with former

friends and relatives who became fundies I would say the woman has some void in her life. There must be some other issues that are making her turn to this church to fill whatever void it is she feels. So I don't think its just her having a problem. The people I know who turned to these churches were either very depressed, had something very bad happen to them or were very screwed up with alcohol or drugs and sought the "church" to help turn their lives around.

[Rabrrrrrr]

31. First thing: stop giving her money, and protect their assets.

Make sure that she doesn't have the ability to give everything to the church.

Probably, the church isn't gonna try to do anything, but that is the kind of church that has a much higher chance than any other to have a preacher/pastor who's more charlatn than man of God; these kinds of churches are often good at preying on people who are suffering in one way or another, and more than likely, there's something wrong with his wife (especially after reading that she's been on medications and stuff).

Otherwise, I don't there's really anything that the hubby needs to do, unless it does, at some point, seem to be more cult like than church like. he should also talk to her about why she likes it, what she is finding meaningful about the church, adn what hole/void in her life it's filling. This could be exactly what she needs to get through her pain, and by sharing in conversation and dialogue, it could strengthen the marriage and help her even more.

But he should also pay attention to the church and to what she's doing - her mental condition could also be exactly what the church leaders need to get some new boats, or bolster their retirement portfolios.

[karlrschneider]

32. Time for some "tough love"

Have him tell her to knock that shit off or she's out on her ass.
Sorry to be so blunt but sometimes it comes down to that.

[Seabiscuit]

33. Sounds like he waited too long. File for divorce and get out of Dodge.

Anyone who lives within driving distance of a fundie church is asking for trouble.

[pitohui]

34. i would secretly consult w. a divorce attorney

even if he chooses not to divorce her, he needs to know what his rights are if she starts giving $$$ to this church -- some churches demand 10 percent of income and they are not shy to put pressure on the vulnerable for even more

when someone loses their way and gets involved in a cult, which is what these greedy fundy churches are, you have to first protect yourself because you are not going to be able to re-brainwash an adult's mind

as far as i'm concerned if my husband suddenly converted to some nutty woman-hating fundy religion, it would be over, but it wouldn't happen, because my husband respects me, too bad this woman doesn't respect herself

he could always insist she get a medical check-up, sometimes sudden conversions or changes in personality have medical causes but i wouldn't hold my breath, most fundy nuts are happy to be fundy nuts and it's like the old joke "the light bulb has to want to change"

[Warpy]

35. I don't wonder that he's frightened.

However,this is one thing that can't be controlled by another person. It's like any other addiction. You can't cure the addiction but you can certainly act to make it worse.

The question he has to keep asking himself is whether his life is better with her or without her.

If the fundies get their claws in too deeply, she will likely issue the "get saved or get out" ultimatum. That's when he has to stand his ground, tell her she can't control his soul any more than he can control hers. Sometimes there is a truce. Sometimes the fundies leave.

If there are kids involved, this is really tragic. Your friend will have to decide whether or not his kids are being seriously damaged by this stuff, scared out of their wits and forced to drop their friends who don't go to that church. At that point, a divorce lawyer with a good track record of getting fathers who sue custody of the kids should be consulted.

The worst thing to do is issue ultimatums about leaving the church to save the marriage. That won't work and will drive her deeper into the insanity she seems fated to fall into.

[NVMojo]

36. I feel for him ...I've had dealings with the god-luving folks involved

in Calvary Chapels in the past ...

[The Sushi Bandit]

38. Please elaborate on Calvary

Are they a cult??

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

45. It appears to fit the profile of a cult - check this link:

http://www.rickross.com/groups/calvary.html

The Rick A. Ross Institute is one of the most reliable cult trackers I have found online. They profile cults of every size and creed, and constantly update their info with links to relevant articles. Look through the articles listed at this link, and be sure to review the visitor comments - a lot of them are posted by current and former members. A link to Calvary's own website is also included.

Having lost (and luckily regained) a family member to a cult, I am especially interested in the destructive varieties of religious experience. The advice others have offered is very valuable: lock up the money, and don't let the church build a relationship that excludes the family. My loved one finally came out of it on his own. But it took years, and the whole thing threw our family into chaos. The cult still exists and I keep a close eye on it to this day. My best wishes to your friend...you're a good friend to help him with this.

[GreenPartyVoter]

37. What is it that she lieks abt the church? A lot of ppl are drawn to the

charismatic evangelcial churches because they are very outgoing and really reach out to enfold ppl who are hurting or lost.
If that's what she's going for, he can try getting her to a liberal church that can offer that feeling without the hard-line doctrine.

See the link below for more info about progressive, open-minded Christianity.

[proud2BlibKansan]

39. Give him this picture to share with her

[RagAss]

41. Paxil 40 mg per day...get her to a Doctor.

[Breeze54]

42. Shoot her! Put her out of OUR misery! n/t

:sarcasm:

[onager]

44. Check out these testimonials!

...from your friendly neighborhood atheist. :hi:

"I have a friend who is attending Calvary Chapel. We were really close friends before he started attending Calvary, we were very much like brothers. Shortly after he began attending the church he started acting strange towards me and tried over and over to convince me to go.I told him that I was quite content with my spirituality and he told me that everyone who is not part of his church would be going to hell and said that included me as well. Since that day I have pulled away from him. I still speak to him, but as time passes it seems that we are drifting further apart.

As a friend I feel as if I should do something to help him, but every time I try, he manipulates what I am saying and tries to make me sound like Satan himself."

"My wife and I are born again Christians and have not left the faith because of our experiences, but have certainly modified our thinking in some ways so as to not fall prey to these so-called men of God again. I cannot say enough about what an evil philosophy this so called church lives by. I think that you should actually have more about what exactly their guru Chuck Smith actually teaches. You will find that it is a far cry from orthodoxy where Christianity is concerned."

"Calvary Chapels started in California with the Jesus Movement. Since then they have spread across the U.S. My wife and I experienced spiritual abuse from a Calvary pastor who questioned our motives and became quite antagonistic -- all because of a simple suggestion we made. The pastors wield a lot of power and there is no room for dissent or discussion. Basically, if you don't like what's going on, your only option is to head for the exit..."

http://www.rickross.com/reference/calvary/calvaryvisitor.html

I don't know which "Calvary Chapel" your wife is attending. Calvary is a franchise, something like McDonald's, with about 700 churches across the country, I believe.

The original Calvary Chapel started in Costa Mesa, CA, in the 1960's. Since I've lived in Southern California for many years, I know a little about the place and its members.

Calvary Chapel started out as a "hippie church" led by Pastor Chuck Smith. ("Pastor Chuck" is the name Smith prefers.) Within a few years, it grew like a fungus and spun off a religious shopping mall, Maranatha Villlage. And a record label, Maranatha Records, which is responsible for much of that awful "contemporary Xian music."

As one Xian website points out:

Calvary Chapel is an example of what Donald Miller calls a "new paradigm" church. These churches are characterized by their contemporary music, relaxed dress, and Bible based teachings (Niebuhr, 1998). Sanctuaries do not typically contain religious ornamentations except for a dove's image found in Calvary Chapel (Miller, 1997, p. 80).

Feel free to laugh at this next part. I sure did:

The pastors usually are indistiguishable from the congregants in their informal attire. This is because the focus of new paradigm churches is not a change in external appearence but the experience of internal transformation (Miller, 1997, p. 67). Hierarchy structure is not practiced because the church members believe all have equal status before God. The only roles that distinguish the members are the various functions of servanthood such as pastor or deacon. (Miller, 1997, p. 80).

http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/calvary.html

Absolute bullshit. Calvary Chapels seem to have an extremely strict hierarchy. The authoritarian asshole in charge may be wearing jeans, holding a guitar and spouting off that "equal in God" meme, but he is still ruling the roost. And those who disagree get booted out the door, as shown by the testimonials above.

[The Sushi Bandit]

47. Thanks for the greatlinks

Peace

[NuttyFluffers]

46. what if secular/atheists created an exorcism rite?

;)

it'd be an interesting development, to say the least. "quick, he's overcome with the "Holy Spirit," he's being robbed of his reason and consciousness! bring the deprogramming crash cart, stat!"

:7

[FUGW]

48. He should go with it and point out all her hypocrisies along the way.

If he acts like more of a fundie than her and shows her the absurdity of it maybe he can save her. The problem is only people susceptible to be a fundie become one.

[FUGW]

50. I've changed my mind, he should shove a stake in her heart and move on.

[jonnyblitz]

52. LOL

:wow: I am going to hell for laughing at this. wait, i don't believe in hell..

[lonestarnot]

49. Maybe she will point out the error of their ways and be thrown out!

[leftofthedial]

51. while she's at one of the cult meetings,

he should leave an empty set of clothes in the middle of the living room floor and an "I've been raptured. Adios!" note. He can go somewhere and start over and find a rational woman to shack up with.

Or he could have an intervention and get a cult deprogrammer involved.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

53. Umm did they go to this church together, so he has some idea what

it is like, and what has been going on?

Or has she been going to the church without him for a long time?

[The Sushi Bandit]

54. She has been going for a few months without him

he is not a church go'er

[earth mom]

55. I had a friend who joined Cavalry Chapel in Orange County, Ca.

She went off the deep end after a romantic breakup-just couldn't recover from it and while vulnerable and desperate, she joined that church. She was never ever the same. The interesting, fun loving, carefree friend I knew morphed into a narrow minded, judgmental, obsessive ex-friend. She probably thinks she's the one who walked away from the friendship after I pissed her off one day, but it was mutual. I just couldn't take her anymore.

IMO, Calvary's a cult. Your friend needs to get his wife out of there.

Here's the Rick Ross forum link, post a message, there might be some help there. Good Luck!

http://forum.rickross.com/

[citizen snips]

56. it might be too late.

it is hard convince someone once they become indoctrinated.

[kick_them_hard]

57. John Dean's new book

"Conservatives without conscience" is an eye opening book you should read for yourself and pass it on to that family. Might help explain to them why fundies are the way they are.

[mikelewis]

58. May I suggest a simple solution...

If I were in that situation, I would try to reach a compromise. I would tell her that I was uncomfortable with that church and that if she would agree to choose another, he would attend with her. There are many flavors of churches out there and I promise you, he'll find one that both can feel comfortable in.

The worst thing he could do for his marriage is to try to turn her away from Christ. If he were to attempt that, he could kiss his marriage good-bye. As a Christian, we are taught to Love God over anyone; even over our friends, our parents, our spouses and especially ourselves. To try and destroy that bond will destroy the marriage because she believes that the basis for that marriage lies with God. Instead, it would behoove your friend to try to divert her away from the Corporate Christian Club and encourage her to explore her spirituality through a channel that doesn't make him uncomfortable. It is also her responsibility as a Christian to honor his wishes as long as those wishes do not violate our commandments. A compromise can be reached here because she is bound to her oath to Christ and they are bound together by love. Both of these are strong bonds that can be relied upon to create harmony in life.

[Arugula Latte]

60. A relative's wife turned fundy on him (he's not religious).

The eventual outcome? Divorce. :(

[Klapaucius]

67. Divorce might be the most likely outcome...

I was the one thrown under the bus. I shared her faith for a good while, but the more critically I looked at it, the less convinced I was of its veracity. What eventually happened was that a friend/acquaintance of her mother, (both her and her mother are LDS) found out that things weren't going well between us, and also found out the names of my friends. One of my friends, in particular, is very distinctive. He's 6'6" tall, had a beard at the time, looked a bit like a more cleanshaven biker, and looked like he could tear phonebooks in half. He's not terribly religious, and the closest that you could come to pinning him down to a particular religious tradition would be Buddhist. Which is not to say that he doesn't have a temper, but he's not a violent person in any way shape or form.

Anyway, this acquaintance tells my wife that he had called this friend of mine, and that this friend of mine had admitted to me asking him to knock her off. She took it as gospel truth, because this acquaintance was a Christian and wouldn't lie to her. So....... on the basis of this... she gets a restraining order, saying that I was plotting to have her killed. It took her a bit over a year to figure out that this guy was lying. Two years before the divorce was final. Two years that I didn't get to see my son. To say that this has colored my view of organized religion would be an understatement.

If he does have kids, it would behoove him to try and engineer an amicable divorce with shared custody of the children, that is, if he can't get her to attend a less authoritarian congregation. If he doesn't have children, it wouldn't hurt to leave *now*. He will save himself a lot of grief in the long run.

I guess what rankled me the most, aside from not seeing my son, was that she had zero consideration for anything outside of her faith. That is a very significant problem of the fundamentalist mindset. They will see whatever they are told by the church as being correct, and if you, as a spouse, do not toe that line, then they will drop you like a hot rock. It impedes their ability to go to heaven. I spent years getting her to think somewhat for herself and to accept that perfection doesn't exist, but she turned around and jumped right back into the pool. These days, I don't really give much thought to her, and pretty much talk to her only regarding my sons medical issues. Outside of that, I really don't interact with her much. She remarried less than 6 months after we divorced, I think most likely because she couldn't support herself with her skillset. I didn't stop her from working, as a matter of fact I asked her to help me with the family income, which she flatly refused to do.

Thankfully, I've found someone after all this time. She's got a lot of common interests, and is far more thoughtful and considerate than my ex ever thought of being. She's accepting of my lack of faith, because she's fairly agnostic herself. She accepts me the way that I am, and doesn't try to fit me into her mold. She inspires me to be a better person. She's well liked by my family, and she gets along well with my son, he thinks of her as a second mom. When I asked her to move in with me, she refused to do so until she had a job. She's a damn sight more responsible and well adjusted than anyone I've ever dated.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that ( especially if they don't have children ) that sometimes there are people out there who will be better for him in the long run. If they do have children, he can try pulling her back from the brink by attending a more moderate church with her. If she refuses to consider any change of congregation, then she is likely already lost to him, and his best bet is to negotiate an amicable divorce if possible. I would also have him monitor the children closely, to get a feel for the thinking of the mother.

Above all, if he does divorce, and does have kids, it would be a good idea to consider a policy of being neutral towards the other parent. An example from my own life.... Despite the poor manner in which I was treated during the divorce, I will not speak ill of his mother, it puts him in the middle, creates tension, and is counter-productive. He may lose some money in child support, he may need to move in with a roommate, but in the long run, it may give him back his sanity. I know it helped me find mine.

K.

[The Sushi Bandit]

69. Ouch!!!

thats not cool

[undeterred]

61. I worked with a man whose wife became a Jehovah's witness

the kind who goes door to door evangelizing.

He is a very rational, sane, ethical atheist. A Technogeek. This happened a few years ago. They are still married, no kids, and its hard to imagine what they have in common. I guess he just puts up with it.

[The Sushi Bandit]

62. Kicking this for more thoughtfull comments

everyone has been great!

[raysr]

63. Throw her under

the bus, figureativly, it's already too late.

[rucky]

64. Joel Osteen is a great alternative

It'll fill her spiritual & communal needs without being hateful.

My fundie in-laws, who have been avid 700-Clubbers for years have recently noticed the contrast between Osteen and Pat Robertson, and would rather follow Osteen's version of Jesus.

[Warren DeMontague]

66. Copious amounts of '72 Grateful Dead & any books by Robert Anton Wilson.

Hey, it's worth a shot.

[Alexodin]

68. Coercive persuasion is the technical term for brain washing.

Your friend needs to learn all about it and how to counter it. The Rick Ross link provided by another poster is a very valuable resource and can also link you to information on coercive persuasion.

Coercive persuasion employs various thought stopping techniques as well as getting one to police their own thoughts. Social isolation is also a big factor. Usually in the case of Christian sects that employ coercive persuasion isolation is achieved by referring to the world outside the church as "the fallen world" or "Satan's realm". A wedge is driven between family and friends by quoting Jesus when he refers to leaving the dead to bury the dead and other passgaes that he used to exhort people to follow him regardless of what their family may say.

If the church is Dispensationalist your friend may have to do a bit of studying to to debunk their time lines that purport to show history repeating and draws parallels between past Biblical events and modern history. Historians cannot so accurately date many events such as the Jewish exodus out of Egypt or the duration of their time in slavery under Pharaoh etc. etc. This is critical because much of the belief structure is based on the idea that they have a unique understanding and can identify where we are in history but in reality it is based on arbitrary or unknown dates (some very likely just made up). It can be a very powerful and persuasive argument if the person in question is not a scholar of history and cannot debunk the claims.

Also many common and universal spiritual insights or truths are presented as new revelations and this can have a deeply trans-formative effect as well but the truths expounded only appear as great new revelations to people who have not studied spiritual principles before and are not aware that these ideas are often very ancient and common to many of the worlds religions.


There is usually an early period of indoctrination where the newbie is very warmly greeted and shown tremendous affection throughout the intire time they are interacting with the Church and its members. The newbie therefore naturally feels great affinity for the church as a result of this initial bonding process and it is a very powerful attractant for people looking for affection, recognition and social interaction where they feel safe and not threatened in any way.

In the end the best thing may be to ask questions that she will have to use critical thinking skills to ponder.

[The Sushi Bandit]

70. What about them believing in "Revelations" and prophecy..

as a basis of their "truth"?

[Alexodin]

73. That is a very big question.

I think it important to state that I am not an adherent to the Judeao-Christian-Islamic ethic and do not in any way know "the truth" I can only tell you what I believe. Having said that I think that most fundamentalists fail to understand the difference between what is a symbolic or metaphorical passage and what is literal. Fundamentalists often interpret metaphorical passages literally. I can provide you with examples if you'd like. The rapture is a prime example. It then becomes necessary to explain the symbolism which is also a large task but I do believe I may have some understanding of that as well.

Psychologically speaking the real difference is in the ability to understand abstract concepts. Many people cannot abstract. In child development girls and boys generally develop abstract thought at different ages. Some people, a high percentage, never do. Some people only achieve concrete operational thought and go no farther. This is not to say that such people are not intelligent. My father had two masters degrees yet could not abstract. The reason I mention this is that I feel the inability to understand Biblical symbolism as symbolism stems primarily from an inability to abstract. My father even painted abstract paintings but they were cubist in nature. An example of a highly developed concrete operational mind expressing itself in abstractions. I hope I'm not going to far afield here.

Many of these kinds of churches essentially do the thinking for their parishioners. These sects operate from hardened non-mailable concepts that are then assembled, like tinker toys, into towering conceptual constructs. In this way all questions are answered and everything is put into a black or white context especially in regards to how the world is viewed. Just about anything can then be processed without the nasty problem of having to deal with grey areas that require thoughtful weighting and introspection. A sort of reality balloon is created where that which reinforces the belief is accepted and that which does not is forced outside the balloon. If we look at Justice Scalia he believes in a strict interpretation of the Constitution that is unchanging while liberal justices believe in a living changing mailable Constitution that can be interpreted broadly and the interpretation can change to accommodate modern society's changing needs. There is security in having all your questions answered and a little box for every issue, its all very neat and tidy but is sadly incapable of dealing with the changing and amorphous reality that is the world.

Thou shalt not kill becomes thou shalt not murder. Job of thinking done. No pesky grey area there to haunt the soldier in battle. This is only one example. This may sound a but trite but Wikipedia has an excellent article on Christian symbolism I recommend to get your friend started, you may find resources in the library that can help explain much of the symbolism present in the Bible that can help provide alternative interpretations to symbolic passages in Revelations. I caution not to attack the beliefs but to question them with an alternative explanation so that thinking process can take care of the rest on its own. Mainstream Christianity does not agree with dispensationalist notions about a literal rapture. I recommend your friend speak to a mainstream priest they may be able to help your friend with this. I hope I haven't offended any Catholics it was not my intention. Catholicism does not believe in a literal rapture and of course they understand much of the Bible is symbolic its just that, well, there was an argument about transubstantiation a while back and a bunch of people got killed over it.

As I said I am not a Christian but I think it is important to understand these concepts to know better what you are dealing with.

[sarcasmo]

71. If my wife were to go any more to the extreme right there may only be one

Answer, Divorce. When we met she was middle of the road and the her new big box church has taken her deeper to the dark side.

[Jack_Dawson]

72. Is she a "Stay-At-Home-Mom"?

Get her a job - fast!

[Warren DeMontague]

74. Staying at home with kids IS a job.

I suggest you try it, sometime.

[Jack_Dawson]

75. No Thanks!

:hi:

[ScreamingMeemie]

78. "I" am, basically, a stay at home mom...

and no, that is not a warning sign of becoming a Fundie...I resent the implication that somehow stay at home moms are more at risk for this. I don't have enough time to even read a book, let alone become active in religion. thanks.

[elehhhhna]

79. A ggod friend's hubby became a Mormon once...

When he told her they weren't really married until they married in the Mormon church, she calmly packed a bag for him & tossed it downstairs.

"If we're not married you can't live here in sin with me & the kids!"

He quit the Mormon church that very day.

[opihimoimoi]

80. Nearly all religions have a recruiting system. Some go house to house

others resort to the media, and others with membership Drives.

All have one thing in common, more members.

More members give the "church" power in the form of Finances, political clout, etc.

Some churches are benevolent: They operate/fund/ ...hospitals/soup kitchens/mercy missions/etc

Others just take take take from the members displaying greed and ulterior motives.

Please inform your friend to examine which kind of "church" interests her.

Having no idea where Calvary fits into the above...I can only suggest an examination of their agenda and their history.

Opi

[noonwitch]

82. The last thing he should do is get all Jerry Cruncher on her!

They should talk long and hard about where her religious pursuits are leading her, and where he fears they are leading her. A long married couple should not get divorced because she is pursuing a spiritual path that he is not on with her. They can probably find some kind of middle ground in it all.

But if he approaches it as "Stop going or else" or acts in some other way like her participation in a church he doesn't like is the problem, then everything will get out of hand quickly, and anger and fear will be speaking, not love.

[Sir Jeffrey]

83. There is a proven scientific process he can take to solve this...

1. Determine exactly what type of denomination she is being led into. Then do some research about their core beliefs online. There are a lot of differences between the sects, and they indoctrinate their believers in different ways. He needs to strike the root.

2. Identify her personality type. This website can help:

http://socionics.com/

Once you identify someone's personality profile, you can either program them or de-program them. Her personality profile might lead her into positions of submission...or perhaps she is intellectually curious but misguided...or maybe she is simply searching for meaning in life beyond the immediate.

3. Identify his personality type. Use the same test on the same site.

4. Take her personality type and look at what a typical relationship between the two types looks like. There is a link on that page for "intertype relations".

5. Once he understands how his wife sees the world, he can look for arguments to make that will appeal to her.

example:

If she is the type who understands by "feeling" and "experience", he could try exposing their hypocrisy. One way to do that would be taking her to one of those lavish fundie churches with expensive decorations and whatnot. Then, he can say something like "How many poor children do you think could have been fed from the money the church paid for that chandelier?"

If she is searching for meaning in life beyond the immediate, she needs to read a few good books.

Hope this helps.

The only other thing I can think of that can deprogram a fundamentalist would be a liberal arts college education.

[CanSocDem]

84. My younger brother...

...met a "fundie" girl in the early 70's. He didn't know until he had taken her out to dinner, ordered a bottle of wine and then found out she didn't drink. It could have been the bottle of wine he was forced to drink alone or the sly guile of a 'fundie recruiter', but by the end of the evening he was in love. And a few months later, married and thumping the bible like nobodies business!!

I was always interested in the sociology of religion so I was less concerned than my liberal christian mother and my liberal atheist sister. I thought they all had sociological issues and my SILs' family thought I was the devil so family gatherings were tense affairs waiting for someone to mis-use the word of god.

I really liked my brother so I didn't want to lose him to spiritual fixation. He was a good ol' boy growing up if you know what I mean; he was into music and pot and astral traveling and things like that...I couldn't believe he would settle for the simple belief system of Pentecostalism. But he did and all I could do was humour him. Not feeling threatened made this easy. I would tease him by always being wary of a lightening bolt from the sky. At the same time, we talked about the social-psychology of religion and belief systems.

Almost forty years later, he still believes but I sense the old yearnings for 'the mystical' are coming back based on where our conversations have gone. But by all standards his life has been a great success; two cool kids, a 'modern' wife and an interesting job. I still love him because my belief is that 'ALL paths lead to the GODHEAD'.