Explain this to me like I'm an idiot

[treestar]

What happened first? The Katushya rockets from Hezbollah or the bombs from Israel? I understand Hezbollah captured the soldiers first, but who started firing rockets first?

I wasn't paying attention to the MSM the day it started and now don't see anything that explains the order in which these things occurred.

What does Hezbollah think they are doing? Could they not have predicted this response? Doesn't Israel always pick the most militaristic response? And if the Arab countries really want to get rid of Israel, why haven't they managed to do it yet? There are many of them and they have gazillions from oil, presumably.

[catnhatnh]

1. Okay Mr. Bush....It's like this......N/T

[treestar]

4. Hahahaha, but what happened first?

I really don't know who started shelling here.

The MSM and DU go on as if you already know.

Israel has a right to defend itself, blah, blah, blah

[mckara]

2. Don't Watch MSM Either, But...

I can help with the spelling of Katyusha, K-A-T-Y-U-S-H-A, from "Катюша" in Russian.

[treestar]

5. I know you're smarter than I am that's why I asked the question.

[bullimiami]

3. you just need to go back a few days prior to find

a palestinian father and son taken into custody by israel. you could say abducted.
a large part of the hamas cabinet taken.
israel firing rockets killing palestinian mothers and children on the streets and on the beach.

all this happened in june. then an israeli soldier was taken, retaliation, then 2 killed, severe retaliation, then the rockets started flying for real.

so this has been going on for years and years. who can pick a beginning?

[treestar]

7. Oh I agree, I guess that's my point, you can never tell who started it

THIS time. They always blame each other.

This stuff is always going on. But whoever supports Israel has the MSM, so it comes across to those of us who can't keep up with the daily details as if Hezbollah attacked Israel with rockets, therefore they had to retaliate.

If they are getting rockets into their territory, then they have to do something. But if they started bombing just over the captured soldiers, they are overdoing it.

[atreides1]

6. Actually

I think it started with the Israelis abducting 2 Palestinians, then Hamas took 1 Israeli soldier and killed 2 others. Then Israel arrested Palestinian government ministers, and started launching attacks on civilian infratructure in the Gaza strip. Hezbollah then abducted 2 more Israeli soldiers,
when the Israelis tried to rescue them they lost a tank and 8 more IDF members.

That's when it escalated to rockets, missiles, bombs, and artillery!!!!

[ThomWV]

26. I Heard That Version Yesterday

Although I wasn't paying a bit of attention to events when they were taking place so I can't confirm the accuracy of your cronology it certainly rings true to form.

Absolute lunacy and there are men in the world who could stop it with a phone call and not a god damned one of them doing a single thing.

[Rex]

37. That is my understanding too.

It was a 'tit for tat' kinda thing until it got all out of control. Now I just hope they deescalate the violence on both sides and sit down to talk this out.

[madeline_con]

55. So, Israel started it. n/t

[sharp_stick]

8. I don't know anymore

I don't know if anybody knows. The mess over there has been going on for years with each side saying the other started it. It kind of reminds me of a 4 day argument with the spouse, after awhile you don't even know why you're so pissed off but you're still convinced it's not your fault.

[treestar]

9. This is exactly what it reminds me of, too.

Like a couple of kids, saying, he did it to me first.

[manic expression]

However,

like a couple of kids, there is one bully in all of this. The responses, as well as history and what happened, indicate the Israel is the bully.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

11. Yeah, both sides agree that this fight is angels versus devils,

their only disagreement being which is which. But they both believe that they're totally good and the other side is totally bad.

Frankly, as one who is neither Jewish nor Arab, I see this fight as being not between horns and halos but between different colors of jerseys.

[treestar]

14. That's where I getting to, also.

Both sides appear to be wrong and to refuse to settle on anything reasonable. And being aware that Israel was just created there by UN fiat or British fiat or whoever it was, I just say, why didn't they figure that the people already there weren't going to have a problem with this?

[mzteris]

15. As Murphy Brown said

in the episode of Labor Unionists on strike - and the station management:

BOYS, let's get down to what this is REALLY all about - (as she slapped a ruler down on the table)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

10. Crazy, ain't it.

Since the "two kidnapped soldiers" excuse doesn't make a lot of sense, people are acting like Israeli's defending itself against Katyusha rockets.

It's like saying the War in Iraq is the U.S. defending itself against the insurgents.

[bullimiami]

18. and the real point is that it doesnt matter who started what or

who did what this time.

when a government believes that peace is important they will pursue it. this israeli government does not believe that peace and security are as important for their people as revenge and retaliation.
someone has to start by saying 'no more war, no more fighting, what do we need to do to get along'

clinton almost got them there, rabin and barak tried, arafat tried. at least they all tried though they failed. there is no trying now. just hatred, greed, anger, revenge and murder. the coin bush feels comfortable with.

[treestar]

24. Diplomacy is just seen as weakness now

By all these warmongers. They have thrown up their hands and just said, pound away by force. Whoever is strongest wins. Except the "win" is temporary.

[TygrBright]

27. I'm getting to the point my father used to get to when we'd...

...be on a long car trip with three kids in the back seat, fighting. Something like this:


Dad: "What the hell's going on back there?!?"

Mom: "Skip!! Language!"

Sibling 1: "She started it!"

Sibling 2: "No I didn't, she touched my side of the seat first."

Sibling 3: "Well, you grabbed the puzzle book before I was done!"

Sibling 2: "Did not!"

Dad: "I don't give a damn' who started what, I want it quiet back there!"

Mom: "SKIP! LANGUAGE!"

Dad: (Inarticulate mutter.)

Several seconds of near-silence before the noise resumes.

Dad: "What did I tell you kids?"

Sibling 3: "She's doing it again!"

Sibling 1: "Did not, you touched my arm!"

Sibling 2: "You did the puzzle I wanted to do!"

Sibling 1: "She's taking up all the room!"

Dad: "ENOUGH! Knock it off or you'll be sorry!"

Mom: "Now girls, if you can't behave, we won't take you next time."

A few more moments of near-silence, then rapidly-escalating noise.

Dad: "All right, that's it! I'm pulling over, and someone's gonna get smacked!"

Sibling 1: "Not me, I didn't do anything!"

Sibling 2: "You did too! Anyway, (Sibling 3) pinched me!"

Sibling 3: "Did not! You took up my space!"

Dad: "I DON'T GIVE A DAMN WHO STARTED IT, THE FIRST ONE I GET MY HANDS ON IS GONNA GET SMACKED!"

Since Mom always kept Dad from delivering on that threat, this was never terribly effective. But I'm now starting to understand the impulses that Dad used to feel then.

sadly,
Bright

[treestar]

29. Yep

They all live over there in that beautiful place and kill each other over crap that happened decades ago.

Makes me want to smack them all.

[BillZBubb]

12. The Israelis fired in "retaliation" for the attack on their soldiers.

Several were killed and two taken hostage. The Israelis then began shelling across the border. Hezbollah responded with rockets and it has escalated--primarily from the Israeli side.

What does Hezbollah think they are doing? They thought by grabbing some Israeli soldiers they could broker a deal to get some Lebanese held in Israeli prisons. They may have wished to provoke a grossly out of proportion Israeli response.

Could they have predicted this response? They should have, given Israels previous heavy handed actions. Hezbollah might have wanted an Israeli over-response for several reasons. Remember it was Israel's disastrous occupation of Lebanon that gave Hezbollah its place in the world. Maybe they thought they could get back some of their waning eclat.

If Arab countries want to get rid of Israel, why haven't they yet? Well, the Arab countries are not unified. They squabble among each other like they were Democrats (ouch!). Most of them don't really want Israel gone that badly and have accepted reality. They use anti-Israel rhetoric to keep their sheeple in tow, but they don't want to go to war over it. Israel has the backing of the world's only super power and the Arab nations know the US won't let Israel be defeated, so it's a losing game. Israel has the best military in the region due to US backing and the resolution of its people. The Arab states just don't have the strenght of purpose to take out Israel.

[treestar]

17. Thank you!

I just could not figure out who started with the military hardware/shelling first.

I know a guy from Palestine who says they would all fight amongst each other anyway even if they finally got their state. It does appear that they cannot get their act together, doesn't it? Which undermines the Israeli lament that "Israel is surrounded by enemies who want to drive it into the sea." But if they can't do it, what's the whining for?

[Marie26]

20. Not exactly

It seems like Hizbollah fired off some rockets as a distraction while they seized the Israeli soldiers.

[mzteris]

13. chicken/egg.......

The Katushya rockets from Hezbollah

Annan urges Palestinians, Israelis and Syria to exercise restraint
By Associated Press June 29, 2006
"Annan noted that four Katushya rockets were fired into Israel on Wednesday. "
http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Diplomacy/8776.htm

(That makes it June 28th)



Bombs from Israel:

Hezbollah leader vows 'open war' on Israel
Last Updated Fri, 14 Jul 2006 14:26:37 EDT
More than 55 people were killed on Thursday in the first wave of Israeli strikes against the airport and two Lebanese military bases. Israel's navy is enforcing a blockade of Lebanese ports.

Israel's military campaign was launched in retaliation for an attack by Hezbollah forces on Wednesday in which two Israeli soldiers were captured and taken into Lebanese territory.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2006/07/14/israel-lebanon.html



HOLD ON:

"Israel began its ground invasion June 28, three days after militants linked to Hamas captured Israeli Cpl. Gilad Shalit, 19, in a daring cross-border raid. Israeli officials said they would do what was necessary to get the soldier back.

On Thursday, the fighting swelled - and so did the death toll.

http://www.columbian.com/news/APStories/AP07062006news41310.cfm



Tensions run high in the Middle EastIsraeli war planes fired on after entering Syrian air space
By Jeff Pegues (Gaza City-WABC, June 28, 2006) - Tensions in the Middle East escalated further Wednesday when Israeli war planes were fired on after flying into Syrian air space.

That comes after Israeli fighters hammered targets in the Gaza Strip.
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=nation_world&id=4315551

[Cary]

16. What good choice does Israel have?

Who started what is not really the issue. The rockets and missiles are mobile and secreted in private homes and caves. The Lebanese will never have it in them to root this out. Hezbollah wants the fight with Israel, and has been preparing for it. Moreover they are in league with Iran and Syria. Iran clearly has designs on being the power in the region and Israel is a stumbling block to that. The Israelis certainly have their eyes on Iran and are thinking they need to send a message.

Israel isn't going to root out Hezbollah's arsenal with air power and if they go in on the ground they know what they're in for. But if they wait, it's only going to get worse.

So what good choice do they have here? It seems to me that they are choosing bad instead of worse.

[treestar]

22. So will it work?

You can understand why one might be skeptical that whatever Israel is doing today is going to solve the problem for once and for all.

It's like their existence will always be like this. Making me as an American think, well, let us stay out of it.

[Cary]

30. I don't know whether it will work, of course.

Israel and Great Britain have been our closest allies. I think we give them as much support as possible, but stay the hell out of it absolutely.

Iran is a real problem though. We will have to deal with them ultimately.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

25. Immediate cease fire.

Obviously.

[Cary]

31. And then what?

None of this obvious. It's a chess game and you have to think several moves ahead, at least.

Looking back is not particularly helpful.

[Ani Yun Wiya]

34. The best choice.

Would be for Israel to cease it's incursions against it's neighbors.
AND to honestly negotiate with it's neighbors.


They need to lose the state of mind that says "We don't negotiate with "terrorists" we just bomb 'em".

[manic expression]

43. They have the choice of not pounding an entire country

except they seem unwilling to NOT hurt people for no reason.

[Marie26]

19. Rockets fired during raid.

I think Hizbollah fired some missiles at northern Israel towns during the raid where it captured 2 soldiers. As to who really started hostilities, though, who knows anymore?

"In seizing the soldiers, Hezbollah staged what Israeli military officials acknowledged was a highly sophisticated, multi-pronged attack, a hallmark of the guerrilla group's operations during its long fight against Israeli troops in southern Lebanon. Hezbollah, which has since become a significant force in Lebanese politics, remains, in effect, the governing power in Lebanon's Shiite-dominated south.

Under cover of rocket and shell fire at northern Israeli hamlets and border army outposts, the guerrillas sprayed gunfire at two armored Israeli jeeps patrolling the frontier. It was at the site of that attack, which left three soldiers dead, that the two Israelis were captured, Israeli news reports said.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-lebanon13jul13,0,2240091.story?coll=la-home-headlines

[The Magistrate]

21. Hezbollah, Ma'am

Has been engaged in military harrassment of northern Israel for the last six years, since the Israeli withdrawl from Lebanon. This has consisted of sniping at border patrols and sporadic launching of short-range rockets against towns. Israel has responded with over-flights by fighter planes and occassional shelling. The successful Hezbollah ambush a little more than a week ago of an Israeli patrol, capturing two soldiers and killing several others, has been taken by the Israeli government as capping this long-term tension in a manner that required a decisive response.

There is little doubt that this action by Hezbollah was undertaken as a means of demonstrating solidarity with the Arab Palestinians in Gaza particularly. There, for several weeks, Israel has been engaged in miltary operations. Again, since the Israeli withdrawl a year ago, there has been a good deal of friction, with short range rockets fired by Hamas and other militants against Israeli towns in the south of the country, as Israel continued its campaign against Hamas militants, by both aerial attack and physical capture. An attack by Arab Palestinian militants against Israeli soldiers at a check-point, capturing one and killing others, was taken by the Israeli government as an action requiring a decisive response.

It is most likely the actions by both Hamas and Hezbollah were intended to provoke about the response from Israel that has in fact materialized. The militant groups derive great political benefit from large-scale Israeli military actions, which they consider greatly outweighs whatever material damage they might suffer, and whatever harm might come to either Arab Palestinian of Lebanese civilians impacted by Israeli miltary operations.

[kiki]

36. "Withdrawal".

"With drawl" is how Georgie Boy talks after another morning, afternoon, evening and night on the sauce.

[The Magistrate]

38. I Will Take My Stand With Mr. Twain, Sir

"I have little respect for a man who can only spell a word one way."

[kiki]

41. Well, you understand

that I'm a sub-editor, so to me that's blasphemy on a par with "2+2=5". But I guess I should leave that shit in the office. :)

[manic expression]

45. A few things

Hezbollah and Israel were going tit-for-tat with rockets and artillery, respectively. That doesn't make one the aggressor over the other in this case. Therefore, you can't project one as the aggressor.

Next, the actions by Hamas were specifically about the people (women and children among them) being held in Israeli prisons without trial. Hezbollah is also about prisoners. Therefore, you can't honestly conclude that it was to provoke Israel. If anything, Israel provoked them by holding those detainees.

[The Magistrate]

51. You Will Look In Vain, Sir

For any characterization by me of anyone as an aggresor. That the Israeli government regarded the recent incident as one requiring its response is a simple statement of fact concerning the Israeli government.

Hezbollah has certainly stated the reason you give as the motive for its action. My inclination is to disbelieve them, and conclude from the timing of the event, and the overwhelming probablity it would be followed by the sort of action the Israeli government has taken, that was done for the reasons outlined above. My inclination similarly is to disbelieve the Israeli government's statements that its operations are aimed in particular at regaining their captive soldiers; they have wanted to neutralize Hezbollah for some time, and this seems a suitable pretext for attempting to realize that aim.

[manic expression]

52. OK

Fair points all. However, I see no reason to think that the kidnappings were not connected to the stated goal, in addition to the situation in Palestine. Nevertheless, no real argument from me on most of your views.

[alittlelark]

57. hmmmm...

passive-aggressive, but never an agressor.

[magellan]

50. "most likely the actions...were intended" -- very true

The other day I heard Robert Fisk, a British journalist who's been living in Beirut for some 30 years, talk about this entire mess. He's of the opinion that it was Hezbollah's intent all along to provoke a cruel response from Israel -- and sadly, Israel obliged them.

It's a shame that Israel and the current US administration share the same unfortunate mentality: hurt us and we'll pound you and everything you find useful into the ground, and if innocent people suffer and die it's your fault, not ours. That is precisely the reaction the terrorists want from us, every time. It's useful to them; it fills their ranks. And yet we and Israel keep playing into their hands.

Lasting peace in the ME requires fresh thinking and the courage to break the cycle of violence once and for all. I'm sorry to say I don't believe the human race is up to that challenge yet.

[LSK]

23. it depends on how far back you want to go

Just when you think one side started it, you can find something else out about the other.

NEITHER side is innocent.

[treestar]

28. That's for sure.

It looks like whenever it flares up, they start talking about stuff that happened before, so that they can blame the other side. There's possibly no way to isolate this for a "who started it?" determination. There is so much going on all the time.

[TahitiNut]

32. It all started in the Garden of Eden.

Eve was an Israeli and the snake was Hezbollah. The fruit wasn't kosher. ... :dunce:

[treestar]

33. No, Adam was at fault.

It's always the man's fault!

[rucky]

35. Hezbollah seizes Israel soldiers...

Hezbollah seizes Israel soldiers
An Israel artillery piece prepares to fire into Lebanon from a position on the border near Moshav Margaliyot
Israel says it is planning to retaliate against Lebanon
Lebanese guerrillas have captured two Israeli soldiers in a cross-border raid, triggering the first Israeli land incursion into the country since 2000.

Planes struck outposts of the Hezbollah militant group in south Lebanon, as well as roads, killing two civilians.

Israel has called up reserve troops, signalling a large-scale campaign, as operations continue to free a soldier seized by Palestinians in Gaza in June.

Israel's PM Ehud Olmert said the attack was an "act of war" by Lebanon.

Mr Olmert has said he holds Lebanon responsible for the fate of the two soldiers and that it would pay a "heavy price".

The prime minister has called an emergency cabinet meeting to discuss further action, although he has already ruled out negotiations.

(more)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5171616.stm

[manic expression]

46. Then what happens?

Israel strikes with its usual iron fist. Then, the rockets come in response.

[akushuki]

39. Sure, this conflict apparently started in Palestine.

Over the past 7 months, even though they apparently had a CF with Israel, Hamas had been launching rockets into Israel. Israel responded with artillery barrages aimed at the firing positions. In early June, either from bad firing coordinates or human error at the artillery, a barrage hit a Palestinian beach killing civilians. Hamas in supposed retaliation crossed over into Israel, attacked an outpost, and kidnapped a soldier. Israel freaked out and started bombing the shit out of Gaza. They hit roads, bridges, and other key targets to stop Hamas from moving the soldier from Gaza.

Then Hezbollah, not wanting to be left out or perhaps sensing this as a good time to hit Israel, crossed into Israel, attacked an outpost, killed ten soldiers and nabbed two more.

Israel freaked out again, and started bombing all the shit in Lebanon. Roads, bridges, airports, etc. etc. Again trying to contain the area so Hezbollah could not move the soldiers into Syria or Iran. And here we stand now as Israel prepares a ground operation to destroy missiles and retrieve those soldiers.

Did I use too many big words. ;)

[manic expression]

48. I disagree on something

Show how Hamas broke the ceasefire (which was informal) with those rockets. There is nothing to suggest they were involved (even though Palestinian innocents were killed by Israel during this time). Furthermore, when Israel shelled a family on a beach for no reason, Hamas did start launching attacks against Israel because of the atrocity.

Hamas, after some time, did take hostages because Israel was and is holding people, women and children among them, in prisons without trial. Hezbollah carried out a similar action with the same intention and also as solidarity (or so it seems).

Israel then used that as false justification for pounding all of Lebanon and hurting its people.

[akushuki]

53. You seem to be closing your eyes to the fact that rockets were flying from

Palestine. Sure, I guess we could pretend that Hamas didn't fire those rockets but that'd double think. Maybe a 'see no evil' type deal? The rockets were fired, IDF said it was Hamas. It all comes down to whether you want to contest Israel's assertion based on a slim chance that it may not have been Hamas. Sure, A=B does not make B=A by itself, but if there is only A and B then it does.

[WinkyDink]

40. Happy to oblige........Note the countries mentioned, and sentence #2...

"The blame placed on Hezbollah by Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Egypt is highly justified, as the terror group crossed into Israel, killed soldiers and kidnapped others. This was an unprovoked act of war. An action which would not have happened had the Lebanese government carried out its obligations under 2004's U.N. Resolution 1559 to take control of the Southern border region and disarm, disband and expel Hezbollah in order to assure Israel's security in exchange for ending its 22-year occupation there. Ever since Israel's withdrawal in 2000, its Northern border towns have been repeatedly struck by Hezbollah rocket attacks.

In the wake of Israel's aggressive response to the Hezbollah attack, its been vilified by many who call its military bombardment an "overreaction" and "disproportionate." But these harsh criticisms are borne out of a general ignorance of the facts and an unwillingness to accept the violent existence Israel's endured at the hands of terrorists for decades."

The rest is HERE:
http://www.ostroyreport.blogspot.com/#71906

[porphyrian]

42. An idiot wouldn't ask.

"What happened first?"
Both sides (the Arabs and Israel) blame each other for starting the conflict, and the truth depends solely on your interpretation. The fact is that Arabs and Jews have lived together in the region for thousands of years in peace and harmony, as Islam and Judaism are both Abrahamic religions and have more in common than not. The current problems really began at the beginning of the 20th Century when Zionist European Jews began to move to the region. They were culturally very different from their Middle Eastern cousins, spoke different languages, and the clash caused a great deal of friction, resentment and eventually violence. About a century later, the question of who did what first is really no longer important as both sides seem convinced that it is the other's fault.

"The Katushya rockets from Hezbollah or the bombs from Israel?"
Which rockets and which bombs? This isn't the first time this type of exchange has occurred, I don't think. Regardless, as I said earlier, the question of who did wrong first depends on who you ask.

"I understand Hezbollah captured the soldiers first, but who started firing rockets first?"
Hopefully someone else has already answered this, because I've ignored the press on this particular incident, for the above reason.

"What does Hezbollah think they are doing?"
They are convinced that they are in the right, defending and protecting their people from the foreign invaders they want to drive into the sea.

"Could they not have predicted this response?"
Not only did they predict it, they were counting on it.

"Doesn't Israel always pick the most militaristic response?"
No, but they have a strict policy regarding terrorists, which is what they and our country consider Hezbollah to be. As the Jews as a people were threatened with extinction less than a hundred years ago, they make no pretense about how swiftly and harshly they will respond to any aggression against their country or their people.

"And if the Arab countries really want to get rid of Israel, why haven't they managed to do it yet?"
There are a number of reasons, not a single answer. My last answer is certainly part of it. And, as Arabs lost each war, Israel claimed land from the aggressor countries, displacing locals, reducing tax revenue, etc. The rise in fundamentalist Islam in the region and elsewhere can be directly attributed to these refugees (the surrounding Arab nations took in very few of their total numbers - I think Sweden might have taken more than any one Arab nation), as people who are struggling for survival aren't likely to be as educated as those who live comfortably, are more likely to embrace radical religions, and have much less to lose, making them more likely to strap on explosives and blow up a busload of civilians.

"There are many of them and they have gazillions from oil, presumably."
There are a lot of people, but almost none of them share in the oil profits. They are mostly monarchies or decendants of monarchical systems. The poor are very poor and the rich are very rich. Our current administration is attempting to move towards that model.

[in_cog_ni_to]

44. Rockets first, 3 Israeli deaths and 2 kidnappings.

on edit...That's THOUSANDS of rockets first, 3 deaths and 2 kidnappings.

Then, Israel started attacking them.

[readmoreoften]

54. Thousands of rockets and only 3 deaths?

Why such a low death rate? Bad aim? Non-human targets?

[rug]

47. Joshua 2: 23-24

23 Then the two men started back. They went down out of the hills, forded the river and came to Joshua son of Nun and told him everything that had happened to them. 24 They said to Joshua, "The LORD has surely given the whole land into our hands; all the people are melting in fear because of us."

[izzybeans]

49. Two sides provoking another

both waiting for an excuse to annihilate the other. You will never find a sufficient answer because the question does not allow for both to be complicit. It takes two to tango, and at least a third outside party to make sure the two follow the 12 inch rule at the dance.

[rman]

56. June 8: Israelis assassinated a Hamas military officer

Israel conflict 7-2006

The conflict in Gaza started on June 8 when the Israelis assassinated a Hamas military officer. Then on June 9, there was the terrible Israeli attack on a family picnicking on the Gaza beach in which eight people died. The entire Arab world watched video of a little girl running along the beach looking at the bodies of her family.

Hamas started launching rockets in response, with their home-made rockets against Israel in reaction to this violence. Never the less there were thirty more deaths on the Gaza side due to Israeli artillery. Then on the 24th of June we have Israel crossing into Gaza and taking two Palestinian prisoners, names unknown, who have never been heard from again. Finally on June 25 we have the Hamas attack and capture corporal Shalit who everyone knows from the extensive news coverage.

So there were many events, much more complex than the simple capture of prisoners, on both sides. There is also a much larger story in Lebanon. In June, in the south of Lebanon the Lebanese Army captured a Mossad operative group of Abu Rafeh who had assassinated various people in Hezbollah in 2004 and 1999. So if one is only focusing on isolated events, you might think this is all about kidnapping. But really the conflict has been building on both borders.

http://irmep.org/Defaults.asp

====

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/06/15/isrlpa13570.htm

"Palestinians Agree to Independent Inquiry
(Gaza, June 15, 2006)

“The likelihood that the Ghalya family was killed by an explosive other than one of the shells fired by the IDF is remote,” said Marc Garlasco, senior military analyst at Human Rights Watch. “This new evidence highlights the urgent need for Israel to permit an independent, transparent investigation into the beach killings.”

– A digitally dated and time-stamped blood test report of a victim treated at a Palestinian hospital that admitted wounded from the June 9 killings on a Gaza beach suggests that the attack took place during the time period of an Israeli artillery attack, Human Rights Watch said today. The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) have denied responsibility for the killings, saying that although they fired six artillery shells onto the beach between 4:32 p.m. and 4:51 p.m., the fatal incident must have occurred after that.

Human Rights Watch first challenged this conclusion, concluding that the IDF most likely caused the killings, in a press release based on an investigation by its researchers in Gaza.

Human Rights Watch received a fax today from the office of Palestinian Authority President, Mahmoud Abbas, saying that the president’s office, which is holding much of the shrapnel removed from the blast victims, would cooperate and share evidence with an independent inquiry team. "

link to full report:

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/06/15/isrlpa13570.htm

and also this related report:

Promoting Impunity The Israeli Military’s Failure to Investigate Wrongdoing link:

http://hrw.org/reports/2005/iopt0605 /
"George McGovern is the most decent man in the entir

===

june 15th...



Middle East

Times Online June 15, 2006

Lebanon exposes deadly Israeli spy ring
From Nicholas Blanford of The Times in Beirut

Lebanese authorities have broken up an apparent Israeli spy ring whose members have claimed responsibility for a string of killings of leading Hezbollah and Palestinian militants since 1999.

The spies’ confessions, reported extensively in the Lebanese media, provide a rare glimpse into the clandestine battle between the Israeli Mossad intelligence agency and the Hezbollah organisation and its militant Palestinian allies.

In a bizarre twist, Hussein Khattab, a Palestinian member of the spy ring, who is still at large, is the brother of Sheikh Jamal Khattab, an Islamic cleric who has allegedly recruited Arab fighters for al-Qaeda in Iraq.

The Israeli network was discovered after the killing last month of two Islamic Jihad officials, the brothers Nidal and Mahmoud Majzoub, in a car bomb blast in Sidon, Lebanon. Lebanese intelligence officers last week arrested Mahmoud Rafeh, 59, a retired policeman from the Lebanese town of Hasbaya, his wife and two children, and discovered bomb-making materials, code machines and other espionage equipment in his home.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,251-2227831,00.html


Rafeh confessed around the 30th of May, and Hezbollah stepped up the rocket fire two days later, pretty silly of them, uncovering a Mossad assassination cell that uses Druze & Palestinian proxies with Al Queda ties is a silly reason to shoot rockets and all.

[eridani]

58. Can somebody find the post where people in some northern

Israeli townspeople were complaining that their bomb shelters had fallen into disrepair after the withdrawal from Lebanon in 2000?

The implication is obvious. When Israel withdrew from Lebanon, Hezbollah stopped lobbing homemade rockets at them, thus obviating the need for functioning bomb shelters. Therefore, there were no rockets being fired into Israel until Israel invaded Lebanon once again.

If anybody has the URL, please post.

[cali]

60. Virtually

everything I've read, from reputable sources, states bluntly that H'zbollah has indeed been firing rockets into israel for years. There are multiple sources that confirm this. some people seem to want so desperately for Israel to have been unprovoked in this latest mess, that they're contorting themselves in the effort to do so. None of this excuses Israel's response. After all, they'd been dealing with the rockets and 2 othet incidents where soldiers were killed or captured for years without bombing the hell out of Lebanon, but you're in for a long and fruitless search if you hope to find evidence that H'zbollah has not been harassing Israel across the border for the last several years.

[eridani]

64. Which years?

If rockets were a problem from 2000 to the present in northern Israel, why did the bomb shelters fall into disuse? True, all during the Israeli occupation of Lebanon, rockets were being fired by Hezbollah into northern Israel, but that stopped when Israel withdrew from Lebanon.

[Rhiannon12866]

59. It's complicated, since Israel is waging war on two fronts now.

Both in Lebanon and in Gaza. The Gaza offensive has been going on for a lot of years, with periodic spikes of violence, but the current exacerbation of violence began over a month ago when they targeted a beach in North Gaza, killing eight Palestinian civilians, families who were picnicking there. Three of the dead were children. This was in retaliation for strikes that they suspected were coming from this vicinity.

The Lebanon situation is more straightforward. Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers near the Lebanese border, intending to exchange them for Palestinian prisoners who have been held by Israel for many years. And Israel reacted against the country of Lebanon, which houses Hezbollah. They began by bombing the airport, in an attempt to prevent Hezbollah from bringing in additional weapons and over fears that the soldiers might be moved to Syria, making rescue infinitely more difficult. I believe that this began 12 days ago.

And all the players in this have weapons. Hezbollah gets the majority of theirs from Iran. But Israel gets theirs from the US, so are much better armed.

That's the short version, at least from my perspective. I'm sure that someone will correct me, if I missed something...:shrug:

BTW, I like your avatar.:-) We sure could use him right now...;(

[OxQQme]

61. Google up "Temple Mount"

This conflict goes back to before the Jesus entity came on the scene.
It centers on the landing platform that the 'gods' built and used for their shuttle craft.
The three major single god religions consider that part of earth to be theirs only.
Gilgamesh journeyed there to get answers about his genes (off-world father/on-world mother).
100 ton blocks of granite placed on bedrock, on the side of Mount Moriah, perfectly level, had to have been placed there by some one. For a reason that all y'all skeptics will flame me and say it's irrelevant to today's tension centered on that site.

[Rhiannon12866]

62. Ah, yes...

I remember when Ariel Sharon walked on the Temple Mount, which launched the current intifada.:-(

And I know that this conflict is centuries old, and thus not likely to end anytime soon, but I was only attempting to answer the question about when this current spate of violence began.:-(

And I certainly won't flame you. I know that this one place is the bedrock of the world's three major religions and that feelings run extremely high because of this. Insults are not anyone's imagination, whether I'm a skeptic or not. The feelings and the passion is very real, as it has been for centuries, more often than not resulting in yet more hatred and deaths. Tragic, but inevitable, and hardly irrelevant in today's world, since all the parties have much better weapons.;(

[Little Star]

63. They (both sides) were already fighting on the border

when the two Israeli soldiers were captured. The bombing was taking place before the capture. If you google you will see other news sorces saying the bombing was already going on.

Hezbollah captures two Israeli soldiers
By IANS
Wednesday July 12, 04:01 PM


Beirut, July 12 (DPA) The Lebanese Shiite Hezbollah movement announced Wednesday that its guerrillas have captured two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon.

The Lebanese police said that the two soldiers were captured as they 'infiltrated' into the town of Aitaa al-Chaab inside the Lebanese border.


Israeli aircraft were active in the air over southern Lebanon, the police said, with jets bombing roads leading to the market town of Nabatiyeh, 60 Kilometres south of Beirut.


http://in.news.yahoo.com/060712/43/65tzi.html